Arosa:
When the Europeans came to Benin, in one of the descriptions they gave of Benin, they said they saw a mini pyramid with a snake on it. I am going to google it, to see if I can find the image.

They were describing one of the turrets/towers of the roof of the palace that had a pyramidal kind of shape. Using pyramidal shapes is not exclusive to or somehow indicative of Egypianness.

PhysicsQED:

They were describing one of the turrets/towers of the roof of the palace that had a pyramidal kind of shape. Using pyramidal shapes is not exclusive to or somehow indicative of Egypianness.

Beaf:

Thats a description of the Oba's palace the whites met (destroyed with the Benin massacre). It was a building with a tiled roof topped with a copper eagle. It also had a copper snake running down from the roof.

Ok noted. but my research is not finished yet, more to come.

PhysicsQED and Arosa, I have always been of the opinion that the Bini empire was great and Bini and Oyo were[b] independent but intertwined empires[/b]. Also, the Oba of Bini's story is more believable than the Oduduwa story. Nevertheless, I'll appreciate it if you can answer these questions:


1) If Oduduwa was Bini, how come the Oba of Binis' heads were buried in Ile-Ife?
2) If Oduduwa was Bini, how come the Bini's adopted Yoruba named gods like Ogun, Olokun etc and not the other way round? Even to the extent of calling the mother of the Oba, "Iyoba"?
3) How come the throne is now called Oba not Ogiso?!


Thanks in advance!

[s]

jason123: PhysicsQED and Arosa, I have always been of the opinion that the Bini empire was great and Bini and Oyo were[b] independent but intertwined empires[/b]. Also, the Oba of Bini's story is more believable than the Oduduwa story. Nevertheless, I'll appreciate it if you can answer these questions:


1) If Oduduwa was Bini, how come the Oba of Binis' heads were buried in Ile-Ife?
2) If Oduduwa was Bini, how come the Bini's adopted Yoruba named gods like Ogun, Olokun etc and not the other way round? Even to the extent of calling the mother of the Oba, "Iyoba"?
3) How come the throne is now called Oba not Ogiso?!


Thanks in advance!

[/s]

Why can't learn to shut the heck up, and keep Yoruba out of your mouth?? Oba of Ibini's story is the most ridiculous story EVER!!

Oyo empire was far superior, and bigger than Ibini empire.. Ibini don't even stand a chance!!

Oduduwa NEVER came from from Ibini!!

Maybe, you should focus of who you're as an Itsekiri guy - rather than poking your nose into Yoruba history..

Your Itsekiri people are mostly Ijebus by the way!!

shymmex: [s][/s]

Why can't learn to shut the heck up, and keep Yoruba out of your mouth?? Oba of Ibini's story is the most ridiculous story EVER!!

Oyo empire was far superior, and bigger than Ibini empire.. Ibini don't even stand a chance!!

Oduduwa NEVER came from from Ibini!!

Maybe, you should focus of who you're as an Itsekiri guy - rather than poking your nose into Yoruba history..

Your Itsekiri people are mostly Ijebus by the way!!

Small boy, you dey hia!

As far as I am concerned, Itsekiri is Itsekiri, Ijebu is Ijebu! Your yarns happened many years back so I say again, welcome to 2012! Ode!

jason123: PhysicsQED and Arosa, I have always been of the opinion that the Bini empire was great and Bini and Oyo were[b] independent but intertwined empires[/b]. Also, the Oba of Bini's story is more believable than the Oduduwa story. Nevertheless, I'll appreciate it if you can answer these questions:


1) If Oduduwa was Bini, how come the Oba of Binis' heads were buried in Ile-Ife?
2) If Oduduwa was Bini, how come the Bini's adopted Yoruba named gods like Ogun, Olokun etc and not the other way round? Even to the extent of calling the mother of the Oba, "Iyoba"?
3) How come the throne is now called Oba not Ogiso?!


Thanks in advance!

1)Oduduwa was already a king in Ile'ife and had established his own dynasty there. His Children ancestral home was Ile'ife. also the heads that you are talking about are not real head they are works of art by Benin crafts men.
2)I never knew those gods where/are Yoruba. So Olokun is a Yoruba name?
3)whenever there is a new dynasty the title of the king changes.

Arosa:

1)Oduduwa was already a king in Ile'ife and had established his own dynasty there. His Children ancestral home was Ile'ife. also the heads that you are talking about a not real head they are works of art by Benin crafts men.
2)I never knew those gods where/are Yoruba. So Olokun is a Yoruba name?
3)whenever there is a new dynasty the title of the king changes.

Don't mind Jason, those names are Edo. I recall the Oba of Lagos once giving a thorough insight into rituals, festivals, the gods and their origins.
I hope I can find it to post later.

jason123: PhysicsQED and Arosa, I have always been of the opinion that the Bini empire was great and Bini and Oyo were[b] independent but intertwined empires[/b]. Also, the Oba of Bini's story is more believable than the Oduduwa story. Nevertheless, I'll appreciate it if you can answer these questions:


1) If Oduduwa was Bini, how come the Oba of Binis' heads were buried in Ile-Ife?
2) If Oduduwa was Bini, how come the Bini's adopted Yoruba named gods like Ogun, Olokun etc and not the other way round? Even to the extent of calling the mother of the Oba, "Iyoba"?
3) How come the throne is now called Oba not Ogiso?!


Thanks in advance!

Plus the first Oba in the entire Benin/Yoruba history is Oba Eweka the first. Before him there was nobody with the title OBA.

Arosa:

1)Oduduwa was already a king in Ile'ife and had established his own dynasty there. His Children ancestral home was Ile'ife. also the heads that you are talking about are not real head they are works of art by Benin crafts men.
2)I never knew those gods where/are Yoruba. So Olokun is a Yoruba name?
3)whenever there is a new dynasty the title of the king changes.

Thanks for the reply. Okay, forget the olokun stuff. What about the rest? "Iyoba"? What does it mean in Bini? Even the Olokun, what does it mean in Bini?
With my little Yoruba, I can tell that Iyoba means mother of the king and Olokun mean owner or dweller of the ocean. These are the literal meanings in Yoruba. Can I know the literal meaning in Bini?

Arosa, I just want to clarify that I am not here to belittle the Bini or Yoruba. These question are purely for educational purposes.

Jason, at best the Oba of Benin's remains might have been buried in Ife as Egharevba wrote in his revised editions of his book, if at all. All of this "head" stuff betrays a kind of cluelessness about the very institution about which the claim is being made.

"Iyoba " is "Iye Oba", literally the Oba's mother. Edo borrowings from Yoruba religion, I'm not sure I see the significance of that in relation to what you're asking. Are you saying the direction of the flow of certain ideas (possibly at a later time) is necessarily some kind of proof of a specific event? The Binis probably got their "ikegobo" from the Esan who almost certainly got it from the Igbo "ikenga" so we can't always assume direct transmission of an idea from the source (Igbo) to its recipient (Bini). Some of these names you mentioned I see as probably gotten from Ilaje (who the Edo called Ilaze), Owo (Ogho), Akure, etc., but you see it as coming directly from one place.

Oba not Ogiso - that was already explained in the Oba of Benin's account. I honestly think Ooni is a version of Oghene (since the Yoruba at Ife drop the "gh " sound from words) which is itself an Edo title meaning Lord. I think all these etymologies that try to make Ooni mean slave or sacrificial victim might be out of confusion over why the title isn't just Oni, and I think the reason the Edo of the past had never heard of an Ooni but had mentioned Oghene numerous times is because the title actually was Oghene originally . My 2 cents on the matter.

jason123:

Thanks for the reply. Okay, forget the olokun stuff. What about the rest? "Iyoba"? What does it mean in Bini? Even the Olokun, what does it mean in Bini?
With my little Yoruba, I can tell that Iyoba means mother of the king and Olokun mean owner or dweller of the ocean. These are the literal meanings in Yoruba. Can I know the literal meaning in Bini?

The meaning are the same in benin, Iyobe= mother of the Oba, Iyewen= my mother.

Arosa:

Plus the first Oba in the entire Benin/Yoruba history is Oba Eweka the first. Before him there was nobody with the title OBA.

I don't think so. It seems pretty clear that it's Yoruba.

PhysicsQED: Jason, at best the Oba of Benin's remains might have been buried in Ife as Egharevba wrote in his revised editions of his book, if at all. All of this "head" stuff betrays a kind of cluelessness about the very institution about which the claim is being made.

"Iyoba " is "Iye Oba", literally the Oba's mother. Edo borrowings from Yoruba religion, I'm not sure I see the significance of that in relation to what you're asking. Are you saying the direction of the flow of certain ideas (possibly at a later time) is necessarily some kind of proof of a specific event? The Binis probably got their "ikegobo" from the Esan who almost certainly got it from the Igbo "ikenga" so we can't always assume direct transmission of an idea from the source (Igbo) to its recipient (Bini). Some of these names you mentioned I see as probably gotten from Ilaje (who the Edo called Ilaze), Owo (Ogho), Akure, etc., but you see it as coming directly from one place.

Oba not Ogiso - that was already explained in the Oba of Benin's account. I honestly think Ooni is a version of Oghene (since the Yoruba at Ife drop the "gh " sound from words) which is itself an Edo title meaning Lord. I think all these etymologies that try to make Ooni mean slave or sacrificial victim might be out of confusion over why the title isn't just Oni, and I think the reason the Edo of the past had never heard of an Ooni but had mentioned Oghene numerous times is because the title actually was Oghene originally . My 2 cents on the matter.

Interesting.
Oghene is Almighty God in Isoko and Urhobo.

I'm really enjoying this....Good work @ Physics, Beaf and Arosa
However, I'm more aligned to the OP except for those aspects of his post that had mythical dimensions
The two kingdoms of Ife and Benin are quite independent, none can be said to originate from the other. I happened to read Jacob Egharevba's version of Benin history, and in some parts of the opening pages he alluded to some of the contents of the OP especially the migration of both groups- Edo and Yoruba from North Africa. While a group settled in Ife , the others moved forward to Benin.

jason123:

Thanks for the reply. Okay, forget the olokun stuff. What about the rest? "Iyoba"? What does it mean in Bini? Even the Olokun, what does it mean in Bini?
With my little Yoruba, I can tell that Iyoba means mother of the king and Olokun mean owner or dweller of the ocean. These are the literal meanings in Yoruba. Can I know the literal meaning in Bini?

The only word for ocean in Edo is okun. Remember the Bini are not by the sea but their neighbors are.

PhysicsQED:

I don't think so. It seems pretty clear that it's Yoruba.

Not to me, do you know of any Oba that predates Eweka1

shymmex: [s][/s]

Why can't learn to shut the heck up, and keep Yoruba out of your mouth?? Oba of Ibini's story is the most ridiculous story EVER!!

Oyo empire was far superior, and bigger than Ibini empire.. Ibini don't even stand a chance!!

Oduduwa NEVER came from from Ibini!!

Maybe, you should focus of who you're as an Itsekiri guy - rather than poking your nose into Yoruba history..

Your Itsekiri people are mostly Ijebus by the way!!

If his people are your people and they are Yoruba as you've said numerous times, then why can't he poke around? I think you're confusing yourself.

Beaf:

Interesting.
Oghene is Almighty God in Isoko and Urhobo.

Oghene is an ancient King/god. we in Benin acknowledged him too.

@Beaf, I believe Oghene is a also name of God in Edo dialect, though no longer of common use ...You should have heard Benin names like Ore[b]oghene[/b] (A street off TV road in Benin bears that name) and Aiwere[b]oghene[/b]...I believe the latter literally means you cannot agitate God.

Arosa:

Oghene is an ancient King/god. we in Benin acknowledged him too.

I didn't know you were a Bini guy. That means Arosa must be your real name then?
Here's an illustration from a white explorer showing the Oba's palace as it looked to him at the time (you can make out the eagles on the steeples):



This pic shows a broken plaque with parts of the palace showing (without eagle, but you can clearly make out the copper roof tiles):

[img]http://www.artic.edu/aic/collections/citi/images/standard/Exhib/EX_000001/96460_520265.jpg[/img]

Arosa:


Not to me, do you know of any Oba that predates Eweka1

For linguistic reasons it's safe to assume it's Yoruba. That's my view although I can't make you agree. What I found strange is that the word for a chain like object or pattern in Edo is oba but with the o pronounced different from the o in Oba meaning king. At most I think oba would mean a chain like marking or pattern in Edo if the o is pronounced different.

Beaf lol, and thanks for the images.

Willzkid: @Beaf, I believe Oghene is a also name of God in Edo dialect, though no longer of common use ...You should have heard Benin names like Ore[b]oghene[/b] (A street off TV road in Benin bears that name) and Aiwere[b]oghene[/b]...I believe the latter literally means you cannot agitate God.

"God" and "Lord" seem almost interchangeable, in my opinion.

And that street seems to have been named after a past Oba of Benin.

PhysicsQED:

For linguistic reasons it's safe to assume it's Yoruba. That's my view although I can't make you agree. What I found strange is that the word for a chain like object or pattern in Edo is oba but with the o pronounced different from the o in Oba meaning king. At most I think oba would mean a chain like marking or pattern in Edo if the o is pronounced different.

I understand what you mean, But even if the word Oba is a Yoruba one, I think Eweka was the first Oba, cos oranmiyan did not have a son before eweka. or am I wrong?

Willzkid: @Beaf, I believe Oghene is a also name of God in Edo dialect, though no longer of common use ...You should have heard Benin names like Ore[b]oghene[/b] (A street off TV road in Benin bears that name) and Aiwere[b]oghene[/b]...I believe the latter literally means you cannot agitate God.

Its funny that as well as I know Benin that coincidence never occured to me! I guess the origins of the word in Isoko and Urhobo is plain to see now. Lol!

Arosa:

I understand what you mean, But even if the word Oba is a Yoruba one, I think Eweka was the first Oba, cos oranmiyan did not have a son before eweka. or am I wrong?

I think there were Yoruba kings that would have been called Oba before then though.

@PhysicsQED and Arosa
If Oba is purely the kings title, then you might be pained to find its true origins. I very much doubt that it has a meaning in Yoruba either.
The answer to the question might lie with someone who has deep knowledge of either ancient spoken Bini or ancient spoken Yoruba.

jason123:

Small boy, you dey hia!
As far as I am concerned, Itsekiri is Itsekiri, Ijebu is Ijebu! Your yarns happened many years back so I say again, welcome to 2012! Ode!

Has anyone ever told you how much of a prick, and annoying you're??

You act like an adolescent little kid - who's struggling to find out if he's a boy, or a man..

Make up your damn mind about who you're - and Ibini will always be a satellite town of the Yorubas...

Beaf:

Its funny that as well as I know Benin that coincidence never occured to me! I guess the origins of the word in Isoko and Urhobo is plain to see now. Lol!

Nice one, But seriously the implication of this is that, at the reign of Oghene, the Isokos, Urhobos and edos were one people.

Beaf: @PhysicsQED and Arosa
If Oba is purely the kings title, then you might be pained to find its true origins. I very much doubt that it has a meaning in Yoruba either.
The answer to the question might lie with someone who has deep knowledge of either ancient spoken Bini or ancient spoken Yoruba.

With these titles one can usually find a root meaning that explains it though.

In the case of Edo you have ogie which means prominent/exalted/honored and it comes to designate a chief, acquiring a second important meaning.

In the case of Oba for Yoruba the root meaning is possibly father or it's something similar to the case above.

PhysicsQED:
If his people are your people and they are Yoruba as you've said numerous times, then why can't he poke around? I think you're confusing yourself.

He's just being ignorant, and I doubt Jason123 is Itsekiri - he's from his alter ego, Alh_harem's tribe (all tribes in Nigeria).

No sane person will ever accept the Oba of Benin's story - it has more to do with politics than the real history... If Ibini begot Oyo, then Oyo must have been a badazz not to pay tributaries to Ibini. History showed us that, it was the other way round.

Oba of ibini's assertion is the same as the Awujale's assertion that: 'Ijebus are not Yorubas' - pure fallacies..