To prove biblically that ALL will be judged

"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades [the grave] delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works" (Revelation 20:11-13).

Note that there are many detailed teachings on this.
There is a period of 1000 years where the saints will reign in Christ and the dead without Christ are given an opportunity to hear the gospel and accept him.
God is a merciful God.
This is beyond the scope of this thread.
So @ the poster,the dead without Christ or without the law will be judged fairly.

nwando:

To prove biblically that ALL will be judged

"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades [the grave] delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works" (Revelation 20:11-13).

Note that there are many detailed teachings on this.
There is a period of 1000 years where the saints will reign in Christ and the dead without Christ are given an opportunity to hear the gospel and accept him.
God is a merciful God.
This is beyond the scope of this thread.
So @ the poster,the dead without Christ or without the law will be judged fairly.

Yes, there will be Judgement whether or not they came before Jesus came. Even now that Jesus came, there will be Judgement for us. So we are talking about, People were not worshipping Jesus before he came, so were this people (Prophets and other God fearing People) all going to Hell, since Christians believe that "YOU NEED HIS BLOOD IN ORDER TO ENTER PARADISE" (Correct me if I am mistaken), And those people does not have Jesus's blood, do you mean Adam, Noah, Abraham, etc whom all does not have the Blood of Jesus going to Hell Fire

auwal87:

Yes, there will be Judgement whether or not they came before Jesus came. Even now that Jesus came, there will be Judgement for us. So we are talking about, People were not worshipping Jesus before he came, so were this people (Prophets and other God fearing People) all going to Hell, since Christians believe that "YOU NEED HIS BLOOD IN ORDER TO ENTER PARADISE" (Correct me if I am mistaken), And those people does not have Jesus's blood, do you mean Adam, Noah, Abraham, etc whom all does not have the Blood of Jesus going to Hell Fire

Are you sure you are looking for answers I have posted a reply that greatly explains what happens. Nwando in his last post below . Gives you greater information that goes a step further to answer your question. Are you sure you read the posts and want an answer to your question??

nwando:

To prove biblically that ALL will be judged

"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades [the grave] delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works" (Revelation 20:11-13).

Note that there are many detailed teachings on this.
There is a period of 1000 years where the saints will reign in Christ and the dead without Christ are given an opportunity to hear the gospel and accept him.
God is a merciful God.
This is beyond the scope of this thread.
So @ the poster,the dead without Christ or without the law will be judged fairly.

I am not asking if anyone that died now, I am asking of those that died before Jesus came, What are their stands? They do not believe Trinity,

@auwal87,

I've been very engaged for a while and since my schedules changed after my exams, my time on the Forum will be on and off.

However, picking up from where we left, let me offer you a few answers to your concerns. I'm going to be detailed in covering a lot of ground about your queries: so please bear with me.

auwal87:

Is the answer to this simple question there please? All those that died before Jesus came were going to hell fire, True or False?

Lol. . . don't act like a blind bat!

I already answered the question - and repeated it here to indicate that I already did so! (click on the highlighted links). Even nwando had to re-quote the very same text (Romans 2:12-16) just recently to underscore the answers already given.

auwal87:

All the above verses has nothing to do with my simple Question "Are All Those That Died Before Jesus Going To Hell Fire?"

Doesn't that sound like you're taking a heart-attack after my having answered your second query about whether "Abraham, Moses, Noah, Joseph, etc" preached about the Son of God or the Trinity at their time? But notice again that I proffered answers using those verses to point you to the fact that the OT prophets already made mention of "the Son of God" long before the NT was ever penned!

If you were seeking answers which the Qur'an does not have about your supposed "question" as highlighted in bold, I already quoted Romans 2:12-16 to you for starters. Have you said anything about that? Your problem for which you keep dancing on the same spot and pinching your navel is on whether or not the OT prophets preached on the deity of Jesus Christ!!

Perhaps you have something to offer as alternative explanations to those same verses: please do so and simply enlighten us. It will not be enough to play the 'convenience game' of hiding behind the usual Muslim denial of Biblical truths: you should also go one step further to explain those verses and give their precise exegesis - for that is what I usually do in my rejoinders when answering questions from Muslims.

Don't let Muhammad's denials send you to a Christless grave! If you want to know more on the issue of the queries you presented concerning "the Son of God" mentioned by the OT prophets, relax - for there are answers! In addtion to the verses already cited, let's quote one more:

Daniel 3:25
'He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose,
walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt;
and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.'

Remember that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself referred to the prophet Daniel in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 - which is fact enough to understand that Daniel was considered truly a prophet. What did Muhammad do with the prophet Daniel when he claimed to have believed in ALL the prophets? Did Muhammad not claim that he believed in (ALL) the prophets of the Bible (Qur'an 2:136, 285)? Was Muhammad telling the truth if he could not believe Daniel and the OT prophets who specifically made mention of "the Son of God"?

Muhammad tried to deceive gullible Arabs with his pretences of believing "all" the prophets, when in very fact he was DENYING what was revealed to those prophets!

Both questions you asked have been answered. In retrospect, where have you attempted answers to the few issues I left for your consideration?

Dress warm.

@auwal87,

Perhaps, in addition to what I've presented let me make a few observations and then leave you some queries.

When you asked about the fate of all those who died before the Lord Jesus Christ, you made some preconceived conclusions such that whether the answer was "YES" or "NO", you wanted to deliberately misrepresent the Biblical revelation of God. Reminder:

auwal87:

If Yes!, then Christian God have no mercy on Innocent Human Beings, since Jesus does not exist at the time of Abraham, Moses, Noah, etc,
If No!, then you did not need the blood of Jesus to enter Paradise (as Christians claim)

If you were seeking answers from a Biblical point of reference, there are enough. However, Jesus has always existed - and none of the persons you mentioned (Abraham, Moses, Noah) predated Him. Yet, to suppose that one did not need the blood of Jesus to enter Paradise is to miss the value of redemption altogether. I'm not going to lay much blame on you thereto; because we know that, after having denied the revelation of God as given to the Biblical prophets, Muhammad also denied the core teaching of redemption in the Bible under his pretentious "revelations" from 'Allah'.

What about the Blood of Jesus Christ as applying to every believer even before He was born?

Certainly, the Blood has its efficacy across all divisions of history: past, present, furture. The OT reveals that the prophets believed in the coming of the Messiah - the LORD - He who brings "everlasting salvation" (Isaiah 45:17). You will find in the Bible, for example, that far back in the days of Job, there was a deep conviction that the Redeemer was to come to the earth!

Job 19:25-27

"²⁵[/b]For I know that my [b]Redeemer liveth, and that
He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

²⁶[/b]And though after my skin worms destroy this body,
[b]yet in my flesh shall I see God:

²⁷Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold,
and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."

When Job said that "I know that my Redeemer liveth", he was clearly saying that the Redeemer existed before even the NT was written! So, your inference that "Jesus does not exist at the time of Abraham, Moses, Noah, etc[/i]" is utterly false. Even when Jesus spoke to the Jews, He clearly asserted: "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58).

As I have said several times, the one huge issue here that Muhammad missed in his "revelations" was redemption! Have you ever wondered why the Biblical prophets all spoke about redemption and the Redeemer, but Muhammad failed in every instance to discuss the subject? The OT prophets knew God as 'the Redeemer' who was to come to earth to redeem man; but Muhammad had no clue, even though he declared that Jesus is THE Messiah (Qur'an 3:45)!!

The Redeemer Himself is 'God' (and the saints will see Him - Job19:25-27); and upon this basic conviction, redemption would be offered to the entire world. Does that include even those who lived before Christ was born? Certainly so! HOW?

You remember that Job lived before Jesus was born. Yet, he said: "I know that my Redeemer liveth, . . after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God"! Let me explicate the three issues encapsulated in that statement:

(a) he recognized that the Redeemer is God (vs. 25)

(b) he testified of the resurrection when he would see God (vs. 26)

(c) he prophesied that his eyes shall see God (vs. 26b-27)

Using this reference as an example among others, let me share with you why the Incarnation (Jesus becoming Man, John 1:14) is the one thing that made the Blood possible for our redemption.

@auwal87,

How does the Redeemer therefore connect with the question of the Blood?

Certainly, redemption is closely connected to the efficacy of the Blood; for without the Blood, there is no redemption: "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us" (Hebrews 9:12). Certainly, we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:14 and Eph. 1:7).

But notice that it was only possible for the Blood of Jesus Christ to avail on our behalf through His being born as a Man - which is what the prophets have foretold in so many passages:

Isaiah 7:14
'Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,
and shall call his name Immanuel.'

The name "Immanuel" is simply 'God with Us' (cf. Matthew 1:23). God Himself would come to earth, being born as a Man, that through His Blood we might all be redeemed! This was not something that Christians made up - for the OT prophecies were not written by Christians! In many other verses of the OT, the prophets have spoken about the birth, ministry, death and resurrection of the Messiah - the last two (death and ressurection) which Muhammad categorically denied yet again!

To be honest with you, the very thought of the Incarnation was a huge struggle for me as a former Muslim. Even if Muhammad might have struggled with the deity of Jesus Christ and denied it, he certainly had no basis to also deny the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus which the OT prophets have clearly declared! You may think Muhammad's ideas about God were superlative - but wait to read some of the things he said about 'Allah', and then hopefully you will begin to understand why no one with the faintest intelligence should take Muhammad seriously!

Yes, indeed - the Blood of Jesus Christ is efficacious in all agaes - past, present, and future. The people who died before Jesus were born would still benefit from the power of His Blood:

Rom. 3:23-26
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption
that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a
propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare
his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past,
through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time
his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him
which believeth in Jesus.

There is the answer to your query, and it reveals clearly the two issues involved here: the Blood of Jesus demonstrates:

(a) God's righteousness for the "remission of sins that are past"

[center]and[/center]

(b) God's righteousness at "this present time" also.

So, whether it has to do with past or present, God's mercy extends to everyone who had hope in His redemptive purposes. You can just imagine what will happen to Muhammad and all those whom he deceived into denying the revelation of God's redemption in the prophecies of the Biblical prophets!

@auwal87,

Let's look at your subsequent query:

auwal87:

I am not asking if anyone that died now, I am asking of those that died before Jesus came, What are their stands? They do not believe Trinity,

First, you cannot be sure that they did not believe in the Trinity - especially because YOU have not read the Bible for yourself. Let me remind you that the Biblical doctrine of the Trinity comprises the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit - as we see from Jesus' own statement in Matthew 28:19 - "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost".

From this alone, you may be sure that Muhammad did not receive his revelation from God about the Trinity. He had assumed that the Trinity was comprised of the Father, Jesus the Son, and Mary the mother (see Qur'an 5:116- "And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?". The Bible never taught this fallacy, nor have Christians ever referred to the Trinity as "two gods besides Allah" - that was a fabrication by Muhammad who pretended to have received it as a "revelation" from 'Allah'.

My question is this: how could 'Allah' have fabricated a false statement into a 'revelation' and committed it Muhammad? It is obvious that Muhammad was lying, as no such thing was ever taught in true Biblical Christianity! The only explanation for that fallacy is the influence of the Roman Catholic monk who misled Muhammad into the idea that Mary was part of the Trinity!!


The OT prophets were no strangers to the Trinity as well, for they spoke of God as the 'Father', and as the 'Son', and also 'the Spirit'. Let me outline just a few of them (please note that these are from the OT prophets, which were never changed in history):

The Father:

Deuteronomy 32:6
'Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise?
Is not He thy Father that hath bought thee? hath He not
made thee, and established thee?

Malachi 2:10
'Have we not all one Father? hath not one God created us?
why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother,
by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Isaiah 63:16
'Doubtless thou art our Father, though Abraham be ignorant of us,
and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our Father,
our Redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.'

Isaiah 64:8
'But now, O LORD, thou art our Father; we are the clay,
and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.'

- - - - - - - - - - - -

The Son:

Psalm 2:7 & 12
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me,
Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. . .
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way,
when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that
put their trust in Him.

Daniel 3:25
'He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose,
walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt;
and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.'

- - - - - - - - - - - -

The Spirit:

Job 33:4
'The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty
hath given me life.'

Ezekiel 11:5
'And the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and said unto me, Speak;
Thus saith the LORD; Thus have ye said, O house of Israel: for I know
the things that come into your mind, every one of them.'

Psalm 104:30
'Thou sendest forth Thy Spirit, they are created: and thou renewest
the face of the earth.'

Isaiah 63:11
'Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying,
Where is He that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of
His flock? where is He that put His holy Spirit within him?


The word 'Tinity' is not specifically used in the Bible (just as so many arabic words in Islam are not found in the Qur'an, even though Muslims use them to teach Islamic tenets). But that does not mean therefore that the Trinity is a false teaching - otherwise, it would mean that those who claim to believe the Bible are hypocrites by denying the fact that the Trinity was revealed to the OT prophets as well. What we should understand here is that the OT prophets all addressed God in Biblical language pointing out the fact of the Trinity.

@auwal87,

Observe carefully, that when Muhammad declared that he believed in (all) the prophets of the Bible (Qur'an 2:136, 285), he was actually presenting the typical deception of a false prophet - for he only pretended to have believed the prophets when in fact he was denying what the prophets taught!

An example here is that, even though the OT prophets all knew God as the "Father" as well as the "Son", Muhammad denied that God was known as 'Father', or even had a divine "Son". In his mindset, he had thought that God being the Father presupposes that God must have had a wife in order to have a "Son"! That is another example of the fact that Muhammad was only making things up and did not receive any revelations from God at all. It is not possible for God to contradict what He had revealed of Himself to the OT prophets; nor can we honestly accept Muhammad's false assumptions as "revelations" of 'Allah'.

In denying that God was known as "Father", and "Son" and the "Spirit", Muhammad went on to accuse Jews and Christians of being polytheists who worship three Gods! He rejected the testimony that the Trinity was and always have been ONE God (Deut. 6:4) - understandably, that is a mystery which is far above human intelligence to grasp.

On the other hand, it is Muslims that have been misled to believe that 'Islamic monotheism' is only one God who has no 'Son', or partner; and with whom no one and nothing can be associated. However, even when I was a Muslim, it was obvious that Muhammad associated himself with 'Allah' - and I will come back later before the weekend to share more about that!

So, back to your subsequent query:

auwal87:

I am not asking if anyone that died now, I am asking of those that died before Jesus came, What are their stands? They do not believe Trinity,

Actually, they believed in the Trinity - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit: ONE God. They did not call it a 'Trinity' in their time; but there is no Biblical prophet who ever denied that God was known and addressed as "Father" and the "Spirit".

What has been so difficult for many to grasp is that "the Son" was also known and addressed by the OT prophets! That is precisely what Muhammad came to attack; and in doing so, he qualified himself as a false prophet on three points:

~ he denied that God was called the "Father" (because that would
inevitably force him to recognize that the "Father" had a divine "Son"

~ he denied the true identity of the Holy Spirit, which he mistook
for the angel Gabriel

~ in denying the Trinity, he denied both the "Father" and the "Spirit",
and consequently denied the "Son" - even though we have so many verses
in the OT to testify to these matters!

I would like you to recognize the huge implication of Muhammad's denials:

[list](a) The God who revealed himself to all the prophets of the Bible is the One who made them know that He is the FATHER! Moses boldly asserted this in Deuteronomy 32:6 when he stated: "Is not He thy Father that hath bought thee?" Now, what Muhammad did in Islam was to deny the divine Fatherhood of that same God - and therefore, he qualified himself as a false prophet!

(b) Muhammad also denied the fact that the Holy Spirit is God - that was why he confused the personality of God's Spirit and mistook him for angel Gabriel (Jibril)! There is no prophet in the Bible that ever referred to angel Gabriel as "the Holy Spirit" - not one prophet! That was why the Jews questioned Muhammad about the Spirit - because they knew that Muhammad was a false prophet! If ALL the prophets taught and believed the same thing that God revealed to them, where did Muhammad get his confusion from?

(c) The litmus test in distinguishing a true prophet from a false prophet is whether God had revealed Himself to any one of them. Numbers 12:6 says: "And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream." God will make Himself "known" (that is "reveal Himself", and He will also "speak" directly to that prophet! If any prophet failed that test, he was a false prophet. QED.

Guess what? God revealed Himself to ALL the Biblical prophets - and He spoke to them directly! However, Muhammad indeed failed that test - for God did not reveal Himself to Muhammad, nor did the Quraish prophet ever hear God speak to him directly! Now, you can understand why Muhammad lied that he believed all the prophets while actually denying what God revealed to them![/list]

Is it any more astonishing to understand WHY Muhammad was attacking Jews and Christians and accusing them of all sorts of his personal fabrications?

@auwal87,

One more thing:

Having proffered some answers to your initial two questions as well the subsequent one, I should rather ask you two simple questions:

Since Muhammad failed the test of a genuine prophet (God never revealed Himself or speak directly to him), it is obvious that the Quraish prophet was spouting deceptions and hoodwinking gullible minds. Therefore:

[list](a) what would happen to those who died in the deception that Muhammad fabricated, especially after demonstrating that he was DENYING God's revelations to the OT prophets?

(b) how do you reconcile the fact that Muhammad taught the direct opposite of what the OT prophets had received from God?[/list]

It should be simple enough that you carefully examine these matters and understand why I left Islam after discovering (by God's grace) that Muhammad obviously LIED in the Qur'an and pretended to have received "revelations" from God! He wad denying the revelations God gave to the Biblical prophets - and that is why he died a painful death and went to his grave cursing both Jews and Christians. Muhammad never knew the peace that God miraculously gives people through His Holy Spirit - peace which He offers to every soul through His beloved Son, Jesus Christ.

May I invite you today to ask God to reveal His amazing grace and truth to you - so that you may understand why Jesus is truly the MESSIAH (the Christ).

Many blessings.

Since Muhammad failed the test of a genuine prophet (God never revealed Himself or speak directly to him), it is obvious that the Quraish prophet was spouting deceptions and hoodwinking gullible minds. Therefore: (So little you know about Islam. Infact zero is your knowledge about it. Have you heard of Isra wa Miraj? Thats the event in which Muhammad took leadership from the hands of the bani Israel Prophets, Jesus, Moses to name a few, and others who were before the bani Israel, eg Ibrahim, Noah, to name just a few. All of these are just the Isra part of this event.

The Miraj part is when he ascended to heavens and received directly from Allah the God Almighty, the commandment of Salah and the last 4 verses of Suratul Baqarah.

Read about the Isra in Surah Isra, in the first ayat

Read about the Miraj in Surah Najm.

The explanation for better under standing, go to tafsir ibn kathir. But I will not be surprised that you will not investigate it. Truth is very strange to you anyway.


(a) what would happen to those who died in the deception that Muhammad fabricated, especially after demonstrating that he was DENYING God's revelations to the OT prophets? (A man of intelligence from the Muslim responded to an Egyptian king in the presence of the leaders of Jews and Christians, when each one of them claimed that it is their individual prophet that will lead people of paradise. The Jew said it is Moses alone, and the Christian said it is Jesus alone. But the Muslim said, if either is the leader, we the Muslim will go with that leader. But if neither is the leader and it is Muhammad, both the Christians and the Jews will lose out on a greater option. Allah calls Muhammad His Messenger. Jibril the Archangel (Ruuh Qudus) calls Muhammad the Messenger of Allah. 1/4 of todays world population are calling him Allah's Messenger. What more is there?

Your Egyptian Christian leader when responding to the King of Egypt, in the above story accepted and declared that Jesus was meant to enter paradise! Paradise to God Allah the Almighty is a means of rewarding His good and faithful creations. He Himself is not one of them. In the same fashion He creates Hellfire as a means of punishing the evils among His creation. Neither is He from them. If Jesus is from Paradise, then he is a creation. God is separate and different from His creation.

Who among us is confused and flipflop every which way till sunday? The Christians, thats who.

(b) how do you reconcile the fact that Muhammad taught the direct opposite of what the OT prophets had received from God? (The old testament never speaks about God becoming a fetus in the womb of a virgin girl, then becoming a baby, who needed to be suckled, crawled, learn how to walk, and all that toddlers do, then being a little boy, and go through developmental stages. OT never said that God will be punished and died as inslaughter or hanged. How do you Pilgrim.1 reconcile this in the NT? Yet you can ask a Question about Qur'an, which generously and clearly corrected, the OT and NT as appropriate?

@olabowale,

olabowale:

Therefore: (So little you know about Islam. Infact zero is your knowledge about it.

I thank you all the same; but it is not by making illiterate remarks and pretended ignorance that you hope to "prove" what you think you know about the Islam that you don't know. Not to even mention that your ideas about Christianity are as illiterate as you have claimed against others.

olabowale:

Have you heard of Isra wa Miraj? Thats the event in which Muhammad took leadership from the hands of the bani Israel Prophets, Jesus, Moses to name a few, and others who were before the bani Israel, eg Ibrahim, Noah, to name just a few. All of these are just the Isra part of this event.

Muhammad did not take leadership from those you mentioned - a lie that Muslims have held on for eons! I have asked if Muhammad knew anything about the FACT or redemption that the Biblical prophets knew? What have you said about that? What about the FACT that the Biblical prophets knew God as FATHER?

How can Muhammad "take leadership" from the Biblical prophets when in fact he denied what those prophets taught? Is that again another age-old LIE that you want to dribble in here?

olabowale:

The Miraj part is when he ascended to heavens and received directly from Allah the God Almighty, the commandment of Salah and the last 4 verses of Suratul Baqarah.

Rubbish - Muhammad was fabricating his Arabian tales - and his companions bought into it! Let me clear this issue by contrasting the elements:

(a) This is what is recorded about Moses encounter with God:

Exodus 33:11
'And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh
unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant
Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Deuteronomy 34:10
'And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses,
whom the LORD knew face to face.'

Numbers 14:13 & 14
'And Moses said unto the LORD, Then the Egyptians shall hear it,
(for thou broughtest up this people in thy might from among them
And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard
that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD art seen
face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that
thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in
a pillar of fire by night.'


(b) This is what is said about Muhammad who never saw God:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 378:
Narrated Masruq:
I said to 'Aisha, "O Mother! Did Prophet Muhammad see his Lord?"
Aisha said, "What you have said makes my hair stand on end !
Know that if somebody tells you one of the following three things, he is a liar:

Whoever tells you that Muhammad saw his Lord, is a liar." . . .


Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 477:
Narrated Masruq: 'Aisha said,
"If anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen his Lord, he is a liar,
for Allah says: 'No vision can grasp Him.' (6.103)

And if anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen the Unseen, he is a liar,
for Allah says: "None has the knowledge of the Unseen but Allah."



Mr olabowale, it is either your word against Aisha's. . . or Aisha was lying. . . or Muhammad duped Aisha into LYING!! Which one of you is LYING?!?

olabowale:

The explanation for better under standing, go to tafsir ibn kathir. But I will not be surprised that you will not investigate it. Truth is very strange to you anyway.

Truth is not strange to me. Now let me add Ibn Kathir as number 4 - and I ask again: which of of you was LYING between Ibn Kathir, Muhammad, Aisha, or olabowale?!?

You can't try to cheat your soul and the public and then come on board making illiterate remarks about issues you hope nobody will investigate and find out the truth of them!

@olabowale,

olabowale:

(A man of intelligence from the Muslim responded to an Egyptian king in the presence of the leaders of Jews and Christians, when each one of them claimed that it is their individual prophet that will lead people of paradise. The Jew said it is Moses alone, and the Christian said it is Jesus alone. But the Muslim said, if either is the leader, we the Muslim will go with that leader. But if neither is the leader and it is Muhammad, both the Christians and the Jews will lose out on a greater option. Allah calls Muhammad His Messenger. Jibril the Archangel (Ruuh Qudus) calls Muhammad the Messenger of Allah. 1/4 of todays world population are calling him Allah's Messenger. What more is there?

Forget the fabrications. My simple question is this: how does that answer the question of the FACT that Muhammad DENIED the doctrine of REDEMPTION that all the Biblical prophets spoke about?

olabowale:

Your Egyptian Christian leader when responding to the King of Egypt, in the above story accepted and declared that Jesus was meant to enter paradise! Paradise to God Allah the Almighty is a means of rewarding His good and faithful creations. He Himself is not one of them. In the same fashion He creates Hellfire as a means of punishing the evils among His creation. Neither is He from them. If Jesus is from Paradise, then he is a creation. God is separate and different from His creation.

How does this tale answer my question of Muhammad's denials of REDEMPTION? If Muhammad denied redemption and still wanted to see paradise, he has lost before he even thought out his Arabian fabrications.

Muhammad cannot deny what the Biblical prophets KNEW and TAUGHT, and then still hope to enter paradise!

See how you're chasing your shoe lace on the same spot, filling the page with bloviates and yet not able to answer a simple question!

olabowale:

Who among us is confused and flipflop every which way till sunday? The Christians, thats who.

Keep crying. . . what did Muhammad teach you about REDEMPTION?

olabowale:

(b) (The old testament never speaks about God becoming a fetus in the womb of a virgin girl, then becoming a baby, who needed to be suckled, crawled, learn how to walk, and all that toddlers do, then being a little boy, and go through developmental stages. OT never said that God will be punished and died as inslaughter or hanged. How do you Pilgrim.1 reconcile this in the NT? Yet you can ask a Question about Qur'an, which generously and clearly corrected, the OT and NT as appropriate?

Here's how I make my reconciliation:

I did not state that "GOD" would be punished and died. That the Bible teaches the Incarnation is true - Isaiah 9:6 and John 1:1 & 14.

If you learn to use the same words that the Biblical prophets have sued in their contexts, your confusion would be minimized.

However, my point has clearly been that the OT prophets knew God revealed as the Trinity. That is a bitter pill to swallow for Muslims, understandably. . . but that is what the OT prophets taught! If you have a struggle thereto, you're not alone.

But do not let your "struggles" help you deny that FACT that the OT prophets knew God as "FATHER":

            "Is not He thy Father that hath bought thee?"
            Deuteronomy 32:6.

The denials you make does not necessarily make Islam true.

*Fake Pilgrim

Aisha was not lying, you need to consider three things, the moment Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) told us or Aisha in this case that he saw the Almighty, the first question that will be raised is; How did He look like? What is His colour? His Size, and all sots of questions, Being the Supreme Being above all, it is unwise to describe Him, that was why she kept on saying that "If anyone told you that Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) has seen God, tell him he is a liar" Why? Because he have never said so, to be logically out of the error, she never said; "Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) said He has never seen God" But she use the phrase "Anyone that says Prophet Muhammad has seen God is lying"

So to be out of the above Question "How did God looks like?" The answer as to which Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) has seen God as positive will eventually raise the question, How God looks like, Imagine if Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) has describe the physical look of the Almighty, he could have been drawn everywhere, and some might even construct that physical look and start worshipping him, some might even draw him in the places of Worship or their homes, etc, So it is a Mercy that Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) did not say He saw Almighty God in the Isra'i and Mi'iraji that took him to Jerusalem and eventually the Heaven in one night Journey,

Nice response

Maa Salam

The question u used is incomplete, u should have asked like this "did christians who served and believe God and the coming of christ go to heaven"? Christians before christ believed in the coming of christ and they killed animals and used to blood for washing them clean of their sins that was what they believed.God's judgment on his people was more severe and harsh compared to now (Jesus became our advocate after he died), remember rafira's and co.

The coming of Jesus made it easier to confess one's sin without having to go for confession and kill rams and cows in other to use their blood for confession and repentance. Thank God that Jesus christ came, and of course , those that confessed their sins and believed in God and the coming of the messiah I believe made heaven,

The question u used is incomplete, u should have asked like this "did christians who served and believe God and the coming of christ go to heaven"? Christians before christ believed in the coming of christ and they killed animals and used to blood for washing them clean of their sins that was what they believed.God's judgment on his people was more severe and harsh compared to now (Jesus became our advocate after he died), remember rafira's and co?

I can't help it but to copy the entry of MP007, directly above! If it is true that serving and believing in God, and the coming of Christ qualify any one to go to heaven, then as I have said in my entry in some thread about 3 weeks ago, the Muslims are already part of the people of Paradise! (Olowo Tee, Nwando, Davidylan, please chalk this one up for the Muslims and yourselves!

My man MP007, kinda surprised me, when he said that, 'Christians before Christ believed in the coming of Christ, ' You guys already know what am going to do with you? Put all the Christians on defense, get ye back! at least get MP007 to defend his stand, one way or the other! My question is this: Was there any Christian before Christ Jesus son of Mary? I wanna know. I demand an answer from al ya people! lol. Nwando, Davidylan, where is the answer? Help your brother MP007, please!


MP007 was sincere enough to tell us that Jesus became the advocate of the Christians. Advocate is like the Lawyer or like the middle man? Either way the same position we found Moses with the general population of Children of Israel, even up till this very moment. Yet the children of Israel never called Moses son of, 1/3 of or God! Yet Moses miracles and influence were greater than that of Jesus. Moses was the law giver! He had control over who lived and died amongst them. Jesus did not have either, but the exaggerators would not but win hearts and minds, indeed souls of the GENTILES with their rope a dope! (Thats Muhammad Ali's gimmick against young George Foreman in the '74 Rumble in the Jungle fight in Kenya!) Or is this advocate position like what the idol worshippers place their idols? If it is, then the Jews are correct to say that the Christians are Idol worshippers! Davidylan, I told you so. Have a great day at whatever you will do today. Olorun Olodumare a je ko di Imale, to ni igbagbo ninu Olorun kon. Iam sure Nwando knows more Yoruba than me. So stop fronting. Biko, Omo girl!

there is no point in arguing, u cant understand the word of God without being firm in the word, Its like giving an organic chemistry journal to an accountant, You just dont get it,

olabowale:

The question u used is incomplete, u should have asked like this "did christians who served and believe God and the coming of christ go to heaven"? Christians before christ believed in the coming of christ and they killed animals and used to blood for washing them clean of their sins that was what they believed.God's judgment on his people was more severe and harsh compared to now (Jesus became our advocate after he died), remember rafira's and co?

I can't help it but to copy the entry of MP007, directly above! If it is true that serving and believing in God, and the coming of Christ qualify any one to go to heaven, then as I have said in my entry in some thread about 3 weeks ago, the Muslims are already part of the people of Paradise! (Olowo Tee, Nwando, Davidylan, please chalk this one up for the Muslims and yourselves!

My man MP007, kind of surprised me, when he said that, 'Christians before Christ believed in the coming of Christ, ' You guys already know what am going to do with you? Put all the Christians on defense, get ye back! at least get MP007 to defend his stand, one way or the other! My question is this: Was there any Christian before Christ Jesus son of Mary? I want to know. I demand an answer from al ya people! lol. Nwando, Davidylan, where is the answer? Help your brother MP007, please!


MP007 was sincere enough to tell us that Jesus became the advocate of the Christians. Advocate is like the Lawyer or like the middle man? Either way the same position we found Moses with the general population of Children of Israel, even up till this very moment. Yet the children of Israel never called Moses son of, 1/3 of or God! Yet Moses miracles and influence were greater than that of Jesus. Moses was the law giver! He had control over who lived and died amongst them. Jesus did not have either, but the exaggerators would not but win hearts and minds, indeed souls of the GENTILES with their rope a dope! (Thats Muhammad Ali's gimmick against young George Foreman in the '74 Rumble in the Jungle fight in Kenya!) Or is this advocate position like what the idol worshippers place their idols? If it is, then the Jews are correct to say that the Christians are Idol worshippers! Davidylan, I told you so. Have a great day at whatever you will do today. Olorun Olodumare a je ko di Imale, to ni igbagbo ninu Olorun kon. Iam sure Nwando knows more Yoruba than me. So stop fronting. Biko, Omo girl!

this is not a debate ok, Jesus serves as our advocate , i was reffering to his death on the cross, offers u the grace to apologise for your wrong doings.WOW!, BEFORE the christ came,God spoke to his children but they were not reffered to as christians, I stated that all that believed in the coming of christ as the MESSAIH and the son of God i BELIEVE MADE IT TO HEAVEN, Muslims have never believed that christ is the son of God or that he was the messaih sent , so what are u talking abt?, Being rapturable or heaven worthy before christ required people to keep Gods laws, da 10 commandments,

@MP007: I like the way you retracted your earlier statement which I challenged you on!
Now about the 10 commandments, please give us how you can fit Jesus as God, Son of God, etc,
into the first few? Say 1 through 3 for a starter? Please write out for us each commandment with its
appropriate number and fit Jesus into it, with full explanation!

Thanks.

@auwal87,

auwal87:

Fake Pilgrim

In the first place, this is an example of how I just dey my own jeje before trouble waka cross my path! Perhaps you must have been taking a very bad hit lately from my responses that is why you couldn't resist the temptation to append "fake" to pilgrim.1.

Anyhow, the simple answers I offer are open to all to consult the sources and decide for themselves whether or not they are 'fake'. This ridiculous gamble of Muslims referring to their own sources as "fake" is becoming very interesting indeed - because anytime the facts are presented from your Qur'an and Hadiths, the first thing to do is hide behind your finger and assume that such sources (Qur'an and Hadith) are "fake".

Nonetheless, let's help you clear your worries once again:

auwal87:

Aisha was not lying,

Oh, I see. I never accused her direcctly of lying, did I? My query to olabowale was for him to simply tell us who was indeed lying - was it himself (olabowale), or was it Aisha, or was it Muhammad? That was why I asked him: "Which one of you is LYING" - and olabowale has not come back to let us know, probably because he couldn't make up his mind who to blame for his lies!

auwal87:
you need to consider three things, the moment Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) told us or Aisha in this case that he saw the Almighty, the first question that will be raised is; How did He look like? What is His colour? His Size, and all sots of questions,

I'm sorry for you, auwal87. This excuse you're whipping up does not erase the fact that Muhammad never saw 'Allah' - and that was the fact that I wanted olabowale to etch in his plastic brain. You guys are so full of deceit that even when you attempt explaining them away, you end up further confirming the facts in my posts!

Let me help you further: in Islam, Muslims are divided on the question of whether or not anybody can see 'Allah'. On this very same issue, the Sunnis are set against the Shiites as to whether or not any Muslim of whatever Islamic sect agrees or disagrees that anyone can see 'Allah', two issues stand out clearly for all to see:

(a) Muhammad was a false prophet because God did not reveal Himself to him at any time as He did to all the Biblical prophets.

(b) Muslims are confused and will even deny 'Allah' when they see him in the form that they have always assumed in their thinking!

Your explications are sounding as if Muhammad actually did see 'Allah' but he did not want to let anyone else know about that event! That is simply hogwash

auwal87:
Being the Supreme Being above all, it is unwise to describe Him, that was why she kept on saying that "If anyone told you that Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) has seen God, tell him he is a liar" Why? Because he have never said so, to be logically out of the error, she never said; "Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) said He has never seen God" But she use the phrase "Anyone that says Prophet Muhammad has seen God is lying"

And how does that change the FACT that Muhammad never saw God?

auwal87:

So to be out of the above Question "How did God looks like?" The answer as to which Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) has seen God as positive will eventually raise the question, How God looks like, Imagine if Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) has describe the physical look of the Almighty, he could have been drawn everywhere, and some might even construct that physical look and start worshipping him,

Isn't your excuse becoming even more ridiculous? Even after it was recorded long ago that Moses and the prophets saw God revealed to them, no one thought of drawing pictures of God and worshipping Him as you suggested!

auwal87:
some might even draw him in the places of Worship or their homes, etc, So it is a Mercy that Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) did not say He saw Almighty God in the Isra'i and Mi'iraji that took him to Jerusalem and eventually the Heaven in one night Journey

The end of the matter is that Muhammad never saw Him. Period! What purpose does your excuse serve to assume that Muhammad would have seen 'Allah' and yet refuse to say that he did? Why did the Biblical prophets not hide the fact that they had seen God as He revealed Himself to them?

Just take it - a prophet who pretended to have seen 'Allah' and yet deceived people to suppose that he had not seen him - is a false prophet! On the other hand, if he did not see him and Muslims are trying to excuse it into faking that Muhammad saw 'Allah', there again they are confirming that he was a false prophet!

Either way, God did not reveal Himself to Muhammad - and the facts are obvious from three points:

(a) Muhammad taught the direct opposite of what those prophets taught!

(b) Muhammad did not know who the Holy Spirit was, as did the Biblical prophets!

(c) God did not speak to Muhammad directly as He did to the Biblical prophets!

If these issues are as stated, the point is made that they establish Muhammad for the false prophet he was. QED.

Re: Christians: Are all those that died before Jesus Going to Hell? Answer Pending

*Fake Pilgrim

1. When and Where did Moses saw God?
2. When and Where did Jesus saw God?
3. When and Where did Abraham saw God?

If you cannot give the time and venue, at least give us the story,

1. When and Where did Moses saw God?
2. When and Where did Jesus saw God?
3. When and Where did Abraham saw God?

If you cannot give the time and venue, at least give us the story,

I am very sure she will come with all the information you may be needing

babs787:

I am very sure she will come with all the information you may be needing

@babs787,

Lol. . . many times I like to simply leave you guys to chase each other's tails and celebrate the cheap scholarship you pretend to have. Nevermind, you were right to have predicted that pilgrim.1 will serve him all the info he may be needing indeed! Stay focused.

@auwal87,

auwal87:

Re: Christians: Are all those that died before Jesus Going to Hell? Answer Pending

You're beginning to be predictable like the rest of your folks. Even when you were blessed with two eyes, you still act like someone with a huge cataract and pretend you can't see issues with your eyes wide open! The answers are not "pending" - they have been proffered (refer back to the links).

The typical attitude of illiterate Muslims is to chase their shoelaces on the same spot and hide behind their tawdry excuses of not having read answers to their plight! Even so, not in one instance have you attempted the few questions offered you! WHERE have you responded?

auwal87:

*Fake Pilgrim

I'm used to your boohoos, and you don't need to let the public know that your nanny hasn't changed your diaper.

auwal87:

1. When and Where did Moses saw God?

Lol. . . it should have been: "When and Where did Moses see God" - but there's room for improvement in your grammatical spanner-works. However, here's the answer you seek:

~ Did Moses see God?

(1) Exodus 24:9-11
⁹[/b]Then went up [b]Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy
of the elders of Israel: ¹⁰ And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet
as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body
of heaven in his clearness. ¹¹[/b]And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also [b]they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Please note: the verses above specifically mentioned the names of those in that event and clearly said that "THEY saw the God of Israel!!"

Further, there is ample and conclusive evidence as regards the two Biblical facts of authenticating genuine prophets raised and sent by God:

(a) Moses indeed saw God; and

(b) God spoke directly with Him as He did with all the Biblical prophets.


Consider the following:


Deuteronomy 34:10
'And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses,
whom the LORD knew face to face'

Exodus 33:11
'And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh
unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant
Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.


God even confirms that Moses saw Him in clear terms:

Numbers 12:7
My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not
in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold:
wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

In the verse just above, the two principles are together combined as applicable to Moses in a more pronounced form - that God both revealed Himself and also spoke to Moses face to face in very lucid terms - no ambuguities about the fact!!

Now, that's just about Moses. Let's move on to the others that you mentioned.

@auwal87,

auwal87:

2. When and Where did Jesus saw God?

Relax - there are answers as to the Biblical fact that the Son of God had seen the FATHER in a way that no other person had seen Him! That is what He (Jesus) meant when He stated:

John 6:46
'Not that any man hath seen the Father,
save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father'

It is clear that Jesus was apparently stating that He Himself had seen the Father, even though no man had seen Him. This is why a lot of people who are unable to distinguish the 'Logos' from the Father in John 1:1 have tended to read their own inconsistencies therein and thought of it as a 'contradiction'. On the contrary, there are no contradictions - for Jesus again had earlier declared to the Jews as concerning the FATHER: "Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape" (John 5:37).

As the 'Logos' (that is the express appellation that is accorded Jesus Himself - see Revelation 19:13), He is the express image and Revealer of the Father. All that may be known of the true manifestation of the Father is found in the Son - and He expressly made the point that no man knows who the Son is except the Father; nor does any man know who the Father is except the Son, and he to whom the Son reveals the Father (see Luke 10:22). If the Son of God does not reveal the Father to anyone, such a person will definitely not know Him - as surely as nobody will know who the Son is, unless the father reveals Him to that person's heart!

The bottomline to your question is as outlined from John 6:46 - yes, Jesus made clear that He had seen the Father.

auwal87:

3. When and Where did Abraham saw God?

Let's go back to the Torah and see for ourselves:


Genesis 17:1
'And when Abram was ninety years old and nine,
the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him,
I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect'


Genesis 18:1
'And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre:
and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day'


Exodus 6:3
'And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob,
by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH
was I not known to them.'


Are these not clear pointers to the fact that Abraham indeed saw God when He appeared to him?

Not only so, but again the two criteria that I offered you from Numbers 12:6 are also applicable in Abraham's case; for (a) God indeed revealed Himself to Abraham when He appeared to him; and also (b) God spoke directly to Abraham, as we find in Genesis 17:3 - "God talked with him". And just to satisfy your curiosity, the Bible refers to Abraham as a prophet as well: "for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live" (Genesis 20:7).

auwal87:

If you cannot give the time and venue, at least give us the story

I've already given you the references and direct quotes above - go check them out yourself. I would pray God that the answers help you see the condition of your own heart and realize that the Islamic deception you're parading has not really been helping you in the least. If it were only a matter of teasing your time away on the net, there would be no need to oblige you any responses - especially because you're no better than your folks who play the Islamic convenience game of never answering questions offered you even though your worries have been severally answered!

@auwal87,

All the same, a few more references to the fact that God revealed Himself to the Biblical prophets as well as spoke directly to them. Moses declared in Numbers 14:14 - "they have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face". It is strange that Muhammad with his pretences had duped the Arabs and Muslims world wide into thinking that he ranked among the Biblical prophets; but if we ask you to ascertain indeed that he passed the two criteria, you still go muffled on that litmus test!

Here are some more reference to the fact that God both revealed Himself to the Biblical prophets as well as spoke to them directly:

Genesis 32:30
'And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel:
for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.'

1 Kings 22:19
'And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD:
I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of
heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.'

Amos 9:1
'I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said,
Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake:
and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay
the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them
shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall
not be delivered.

Isaiah 6:1
'In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon
a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple'

Daniel 7:9
'I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit,
whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure
wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.'

Whether it has to do with the prophecies of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Amos or Daniel, we find that they all had the distinguishing mark of having seen God during their ministries - according to His revealing Himself to them. For instance, how would Daniel have been a ble to describe the outward features of the 'Ancient of Days' if he was not actully seeing Him?

I have often wondered also that these prophets are not mentioned in Islam. There are no references in Islam to what those prophets taught; and this leaves a huge gap in what Muhammad claimed as a 'prophet' who believed in ALL that was revealed to them, when in very fact he was denying what they actually taught!

@auwal87,

Now the two simple questions I should remind you herewith:

~ Did God ever reveal Himself to Muhammad?
(that is, did Muhammad ever see God at any time?)

~ Did God ever speak directly to Muhammad?

Why is it that up until now you have not been able to demonstrate that Muhammad passed those tests? Let me remind you of what God said in Numbers 12:6 -

'And he said, Hear now my words:
If there be a prophet among you,
^(a) I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision,
^(b) and will speak unto him in a dream.'

It is a known fact in Islam that Muhammad never saw God at any time; and also that God never spoke to him directly at any time. The one incidence in Muhammad's career that Muslims cling unto is the supposed journey to heaven where he was supposed to have received the Islamic prayer prescriptions from 'Allah'. Unfortunately, that fabricated story has so many holes in it that it actually leaks through right to the base!

In the first place, we have seen how Aisha boldly asserts that Muhammad never 'saw' his Lord - so strong was her assertion that she said anyone making the claim that Muhammad saw 'Allah' was a LIAR! It so happens that many Muslim clerics have continued to demonstrate the liars they clearly are, because they continue to propagate the propaganda that Aisha openly called a LIE!

Second, among those who try to whip up the dead story in defence of Muhammad's falsehood, some have claimed that it all happened merely as a "dream" - which effectively makes the case that there are no real or tangible evidence that Muhammad saw 'Allah'! Afterall, what is the difference between Muhammad pretending to have seen 'Allah' in a dream and any Muslim who also says he or she has seen Muhammad come to them in a dream?!?

So, you see that Muhammad actually did not see 'Allah' at any point - and Aisha's protests against such an idea has continued to prove enigmatic for you guys to this very moment!

Let me remind you again of the questions (just in case you had tried to dribble round it earlier):

~ Did God ever reveal Himself to Muhammad?
(that is, did Muhammad ever see God at any time?)

~ Did God ever speak directly to Muhammad?

Of course, there is only one answer to both queries: a huge "NO"!!. Now, if Muhammad failed this simple test, that simple qualifies him for the false prophet he actually was till his very last breath! Like the mad Balak who sought Balaam to 'curse' the children of Israel (Numbers 22), so Muhammad breathed his last with a curse on his lips against the Jews and Christians! The sad thing that false prophets need to learn every single time: their curses never come to pass - and they often die from the seething hatred they have against the Jews!


- - - - - - - - - - -

Now, auwal87, after you've gone through my answers, you can contact babs787 for consolation and another pat on the back at your no-brainer queries. When you've finished sobbing, wash your face with zam-zam water and do me the favour of answering my questions as above, you hear?

Shallom. . . and have a wunnaful Christmas!

*Fake Pilgrim

That was exactly the answer I was looking from you,

If Abraham, Moses, and Jesus saw God, then indeed Prophet Muhammad also saw God,

Though I am not sure which God the Bible claims they saw, because I saw in Exodus 24 9-11 they even eat and drink with Him, are you sure He is God (HE EAT AND DRINK), I do not think God will Eat and Drink just like we do, he is far above such things,  And in John 6:46 you said Jesus said No Man has seen God, but Moses and Abraham were Men and you said they saw God, who is mistaken here? All those that said they saw God may be lying because even you can wake up tomorrow and say you saw God (as in the case of some of my christian friends, they all saw God, and he talked to them),  So I don't know which God you people are seeing, our God is non-comparable to all, and He does not EAT or DRINK, you cannot compare him to any.

In the Holy Qur'an, Prophet Moses demanded to see God, but he fainted when He was tried, so he only communicated with God in voice only.

@auwal87,

auwal87:

*Fake Pilgrim

Don't kill yourself for nothing, lol. You go just get hypertension free of charge, because no matter how many times you append your fake ideas to me, the facts remain on ground as you find them in my post!

auwal87:

That was exactly the answer I was looking from you,

What answer - that Muhammad was a false prophet who tried to fake his adventures? Ok, I hear!

auwal87:

If Abraham, Moses, and Jesus saw God, then indeed Prophet Muhammad also saw God,

And how do you authenticate your assertion? Where did Muhammad SEE 'Allah'?

Lol. . . you're fulfilling and qualifying yourself as precisely what Aisha has declared:

"Whoever tells you that Muhammad saw his Lord, is a liar."
~ [Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 6, Book 60, Num. 378]

Dear auwal87, why you dey blow LIE and shame Aisha? Is lying in a public Forum the best you can do for to cover Muhammad's fake prophethood? Haba! Don't you have shame anymore?!?

auwal87:

Though I am not sure which God the Bible claims they saw, because I saw in Exodus 24 9-11 they even eat and drink with Him, are you sure He is God (HE EAT AND DRINK), I do not think God will Eat and Drink just like we do, he is far above such things,

Firstly, God is not constrained by what you "think" about Him. It is the usual Muslim phobia to be asked to carefully study what God has declared of Himself.

Second, please simply upgrade your reading skills. . . unless you forcefully want to prove that you're one of those Arabs that Muhammad alleged were most hypocritic and ignorant (Qur'an 9:97)!

Exodus 24:9-11 does not state that God ate and drank. It is rather your Muslim hypocrisy at work that assumes the verse reads that way. Even when you compare with other translations, the context is clear that it was the people themselves who ate and drank! A few other versions and translations render the end of verse 11 this way:

~ 'they saw God, and they ate and drank' - [LITV]

~ 'they saw God, then they ate and drank' - [GW]

~ 'they saw God, and then they ate and drank together - [GNB]'

~ 'they saw God, and they ate and drank' - [NIV]

If only you actually had the basic of understanding, you would have reserved your crass and not alert the public into believing that Muslims are dunces indeed.

auwal87:

And in John 6:46 you said Jesus said No Man has seen God, but Moses and Abraham were Men and you said they saw God, who is mistaken here?

The only person mistaken here is you.

I clarified the meaning and context of John 6:46 as referring specifically to the FATHER! Go back and see it! It was so obvious that anyone who cared to carefully read through would not have missed it at all!

It is plain fact that Muhammad DENIED the revelation of the Biblical prophets to whom God had revealed Himself as the "FATHER" - and I have also offered references to the point that long before the New Testament was written, the OT prophets already knew God as FATHER!

auwal87:

All those that said they saw God may be lying because even you can wake up tomorrow and say you saw God (as in the case of some of my christian friends, they all saw God, and he talked to them),

If at all you assume that 'all those that said they saw God may be lying', then indeed YOU must have been lying when you stated that Muhammad saw God! How daft can you be on the same page, auwal87?

You problem is a simple and curable one. Often times, Muslims in general are looking for just about anything to hang onto so that they could accuse and castigate Christians. The funny thing about that game is that you guys often foeget indeed that MUSLIMS themselves have done worse in every accusation you may try to cast on others!

@auwal87,

auwal87:

So I don't know which God you people are seeing, our God is non-comparable to all, and He does not EAT or DRINK, you cannot compare him to any.

Rubbish! Your 'Allah' has been compared in so many ways to Muhammad himself - unless you're once again biting your navel and crying behind your back!

Not long ago in another thread, I offered the simple enquiry to Muslims as to why they are deeply divided between themselves on the question of whether or not any person can see 'Allah'. Up until now, nothing straight has come forth from you guys other than the bloviates that you keep whipping up and embarrassing yourselves as the LIARS that Aisha intoned in the Hadiths!

Sorry, the accusation is not mine - I'm only lifting what Aisha said! Either she was telling the truth. . .or being a Muslim, she was also lying to your ummah! It's your word against hers - which one shall it be?

auwal87:

In the Holy Qur'an, Prophet Moses demanded to see God, but he fainted when He was tried, so he only communicated with God in voice only.

I'm sorry for you! You seem to imagine that your drool can wash against the tomes of evidence in the Hadiths that Muhammad was simply a fantastic story twister? Buckle your shoes. . . you're about to discover real gist!

I would advise you to throw Muhammad's tales in the bin, or better still dump it on the Arabian sands where they properly belong! For one thing, your duplicity to claim that "Muhammad also saw God" is not substantiated anywhere - the best that has been advanced are mere conjectures that stand in stark contradiction between the various accounts. . . as contradictory as the five different tales that Muhammad offered for the testimony of his call to prophethood!

Second, whether or not you get miffed to call me names, I simply would laugh at your desperations and ppst the relevant texts from the Qur'an and Hadiths. . . so that intelligent readers can make objective inferences as to whether or not you stand a chance of being delivered from Aisha's bold statement that you are one of those liars!

Third, Moses never fainted when 'requested' (not "demanded" to see the glory of God (Bible - Exodus 33:18 > "I beseech thee, shew me thy glory"! Go read the account for yourself and confirm the fact that Muhammad was spouting his tales and twisting the Biblical naratives. . . as he also did with so many others (such as Solomon with different accounts of the same thing!).

This 'fainting' fits are simply a testimony of Muhammad's ideas and experiences. Just because he was known to have been fainting up and down, he assumed that others must also faint - including Moses! Before you open your mouth wide in surprise, let me remind you of the fact that Muhammad remarkably fainted thrice on one occasion and then repeated his question thrices as well!

[Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 1, Book 11, Num. 655:

[list]Narrated 'Ubaid-Ullah Ibn 'Abdullah bin 'Utba: I went to 'Aisha and asked her to describe to me the illness of Allah's Apostle. 'Aisha said, "Yes. The Prophet became seriously ill and asked whether the people had prayed. We replied, 'No. O Allah's Apostle! They are waiting for you.' He added, 'Put water for me in a trough." 'Aisha added, "We did so. He took a bath and tried to get up but fainted.

When he recovered, he again asked whether the people had prayed. We said, 'No, they are waiting for you. O Allah's Apostle,' He again said, 'Put water in a trough for me.' He sat down and took a bath and tried to get up but fainted again.

Then he recovered and said, 'Have the people prayed?' We replied, 'No, they are waiting for you. O Allah's Apostle.' He said, 'Put water for me in the trough.' Then he sat down and washed himself and tried to get up but he fainted. . .[/list]

This magical fainting fits of a man who had the sexual prowess of 30 men was fainting at a crucial point - when prayer was to be made! And just because he had a fainting career, he managed to twist the Biblical narratives and assumed that Moses also must have fainted!

Hehe. . . auwal87, abeg pack yourself one corner! Your bloviates are just not amusing enough!