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Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Nobody: 11:19am On May 28, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: I will use this as an all-in-one response of sorts. Please, If you're not familiar with a theory, you need to leave it out of your argument. You misunderstand the big b@ng, then you introduce a first cause that's "extraphysical" which you admit is "very difficult to explain using physical terms"...................Why should anyone discuss a concept you can't even give a coherent explanmation for? |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Kay17: 11:21am On May 28, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: Up until now, no one has given me a reason why God cannot possibly exist. why then do atheists deny the existence of God by saying that God does not exist? I still submit that the basic premise of atheism is false. It is not a lack of belief rather a purposeful choice to reject God's existence hence atheism is a faith of sorts or better still an anti-faith and it is not necessarily based on logic and reason in the true sense of those words. As to my previous post, I meant that Good is separable from God, that even God if he is good is bound by the standards of Good. The Christian God especially can't exist because of the presence of evil/imperfection. Taken that God is all Good and perfect and he created all, thus All reflects his nature. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 11:24am On May 28, 2012 |
logicboy: Mr Anony, you are willfully ignorant. If you can not see how God of the gaps destroys your point that God is the first cause, then there is no hope for you. You claim that the first cause is not physical with no proof whatsoever and expect me to take you seriously? Sorry but scientists make claims after testing their theories and calculations. They did not pu You see my problem with atheists is this: They do not say "I don't know if there is a God or not" rather they say "there is no God" yet when asked how they know this for sure they babble and beat around the bush. My friend bashing religions and telling someone else that he/she is wrong does not automatically make you right. Don't just blurt out "God of the gaps" explain to me in regard to my argument how this "God of the gaps" theory of yours actually refutes it. I don't know If you actually have read that point at all. The first cause cannot possibly be physical else it would be subject to time and space and hence cannot possibly be the originator of all things physical. This logic is very simple. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 11:26am On May 28, 2012 |
Martian: The first cause cannot possibly be physical else it would be subject to time and space and hence cannot possibly be the originator of all things physical. This logic is actually very simple. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Jenwitemi(m): 11:31am On May 28, 2012 |
If that is the bible's definition of love, then it is safe to say that the Christian God does not qualify as capable of love, because none of the descriptions of love in that quote fit that deity. Are we in agreement on this? Mr_Anony: |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Nobody: 11:31am On May 28, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: So what is an example of an "extra physical" thing?. How do you know what could possibly be "outside" the spacetime continuum when astro physicists themselves only talk about the "observable universe"? Show how simple the logic is. Don't ignore the questions. Why do I refer to some gods as mythological characters but mine is not even though they share the same characteristics? What's the similarity between Jesus and Dionysius? 1 Like |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 11:35am On May 28, 2012 |
Kay 17: I think I understand what you mean (however, this doesn't necessarily mean that I agree). .........but then if this is in response to my argument on objective morality, I must ask first do you agree that God (christian God or otherwise) must exist for good to exist? |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 11:39am On May 28, 2012 |
Jenwitemi: If that is the bible's definition of love, then it is safe to say that the Christian God does not qualify as capable of love, because none of the descriptions of love in that quote fit that deity. Are we in agreement on this? For the meantime, I refuse to be dragged into the "God is/is not Love" debate as that will make us digress. (Please bear with me for now, we can do that at some point other than now) |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Nobody: 11:43am On May 28, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: 2. You cannot possibly have objective morality without admitting to the existence of God. one may say that morality is subjective or is defined by self and the society and the "social contract" but then there are things that are wrong in themselves and we all know this and we just cannot justify them e.g. murder, rape etc at the other end of the spectrum are things that are right in themselves and we cannot fault them such as forgiveness, self-sacrifice etc. This makes it very difficult to claim subjective morality. A person may say "I define my own morals" to which I would ask who is to say that you are right? If I was a serial killer or serial rapist, I could define my morals as "rape and murder are good things" would I be morally right? Also what if I said "society will be my judge" then I would ask what if the society you live in is racist e.g nazi and apartheid societies of the past, does that justify racism? There is no objective morality because morality is a human concept that's dependent on a society and the people that make up that society. Since societal values tend to evolve,morality evolves also so while the Nazi's could justify their racism, other societies condemned them. Now keep in mind that one of those societies was the United States, and we all know that the white americans saw nothing immoral about being racist towards blacks. See how subjective even racism can be? But since societal values have evolved, racism tends to be frowned upon as immoral but not everyone agrees no matter what you want to believe. Your example of "self sacrifice" being an example of "objective morality" is also myopic. If self sacrifice is moral, then suicide bombers are the epitome of morality. If you insist on bringing god into it, I'll have to ask which god, because there is a reason why I like to call yours the Jewish Nazi and it has nothing to do with any perceived morality. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 11:55am On May 28, 2012 |
Martian: Lol, it is either spacetime has an origin or it does not, If such an origin exists, then it is impossible for the cause to be within spacetime however it is not impossible for that cause continue to affect spacetime . As I said; explaining God exactly as he/she/it is would sort of be like an ant explaining the internet to another ant. God is way beyond our understanding however this does not automatically imply that we can know nothing of God. To say that God does not exist simply because I cannot experience God physically is not a good enough reason. as for the other question, I do not have to answer it yet because you have not told me clearly why God must not exist. It is useless to argue why one's version of deity differs from another's if we can't ascertain whether there are deities at all in the first place. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by logicboy: 11:57am On May 28, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: Did I not explain why your argument is classified as God of the gaps? Did you just willfully ignore that as usual? The scientists put out the big gang and then you just insert God in the parts that big bang can not explain. You want to claim that the first cause can not be physical but you ignore 3 things; -You are assuming that there is a first cause that is uncaused. What caused the first cause? -The big bang theory relies is based on the universality of physical laws. -The existence of the universe as a whole does not require a causal explanation. All causality presupposes the existence of something that acts as a cause. To demand a cause for all of existence is to demand a contradiction: if the cause exists, it is part of the existence; if it does not exist, it cannot be a cause. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 12:06pm On May 28, 2012 |
Martian: That something was or is acceptable at some point does not necessarily make it good. if morality is really that subjective, how come one can describe one society as evil and another as good. Perhaps, self-sacrifice was a bad example in this instance but that doesn't mean that there are things that are not definitely good or definitely bad despite the society or the individual or the circumstances and people know this. On this basis morality can truly be judged. Now apart from a being that sees all, knows all and is able to deliver fair judgement, who/what else is fit for this task? |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Nobody: 12:11pm On May 28, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: So now it's semantics time. Origin has replaced cause but you're still not saying anything. What origin? Mr_Anony: "God" is way beyond our understanding yet you feel you're right even though you keep admitting that you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Mr_Anony: You can't explain it, you can't feel it, you say it exists outside spacetime, you don't know it's nature, it is way beyond your understanding but you think it's a forgone conclusion that Mr_Anony: I didn't say god must not exist, I'm saying you're yet to give a coherent explanation of god. Mr_Anony: So are you admitting again that you can't ascertain whether gods exist at all? lol |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Kay17: 12:12pm On May 28, 2012 |
mr anony: Mr_Anony: I will use this as an all-in-one response of sorts. You have made lots of mistakes here, first the big bang theory postulates an expansion, not explosion from a singularity which in effect is not nothing but everything. All energy and matter are accountable to it. Therefore the big bang doesn't violate any logic. The uncaused cause thought doesn't pay attention to the designs and complexity of the uncaused cause and actually violates its own premise that everything needs a cause. The hopelessness of infinite regress is buttresses it. Logicboy has already discussed God of Gaps, so I wouldn't touch on that. However IF the Creator is not physcial and transcendental, then he can't be the cause of a physical world! Where would the physical substance of the universe have come from?! Taking that time came with the big bang, speaking about a "before" or cause of singularity will be nonsensical wouldn't it? Can there be a prior moment without time? I wonder what use intelligence would have in a platform of emptiness. No rules/principles or laws. mr_anony: 2. You cannot possibly have objective morality without admitting to the existence of God. one may say that morality is subjective or is defined by self and the society and the "social contract" but then there are things that are wrong in themselves and we all know this and we just cannot justify them e.g. murder, Molestation etc at the other end of the spectrum are things that are right in themselves and we cannot fault them such as forgiveness, self-sacrifice etc. This makes it very difficult to claim subjective morality. A person may say "I define my own morals" to which I would ask who is to say that you are right? If I was a serial killer or serial Molester, I could define my morals as "Molestation and murder are good things" would I be morally right? Also what if I said "society will be my judge" then I would ask what if the society you live in is racist e.g nazi and apartheid societies of the past, does that justify racism? Morality is a cultural reflection of Good for society's benefit. Morality is not perfect, but just useful. Morality is universal where there is a society, but contents is subjective. All the societies in the world don't share the same moral contents. Murder is sparingly used within the society as a punishment, but encouraged against other communities (war) If there is objective Good, there would be objective Good with its unique character. If Rape is bad and God rapes, then God is bad (objective good). So it the acts that have the inherent value not the "moral" agent or else no sense will be made. mr_anony: 3. At this point I will talk about Christianity; A man was born roughly two millennia ago who claimed to be the son of God, he did many miracles including healings and exorcisms in his authority. He was crucified and buried and after three days, he rose from the dead leaving an empty tomb and was seen by many eyewitnesses including skeptics and unbelievers. This was widely preached by Christ's disciples within days after his death and resurrection. I am yet to come across any substantial counter-claim during that period considering that it would be fresh in their minds at the time and easy to disprove. The disciples of Christ were even willing to die for this truth every one of them. One can die for the lies of another (especially if he believes it the truth) but it is highly unlikely for one to die for a lie he made up himself. Not one single apostle denied the death and resurrection of Christ even to the point of torture and death, this suggests that they must have believed it to be true. The strongest evidence for christianity is the resurrection of Christ. Christianity is based on Jesus Christ and faith in Christ is justified because He claimed to be the Son of God and proved it by rising from the dead. The meaning of the word "christian" is "like Christ" so essentially if one does not accept Christ and walk in his path, such a person is not a christian. It doesn't matter if the person goes to a church or not. I have not yet seen anyone morally criticize Christ's character successfully. No one can morally fault the principles of christianity in all sincerity. The story of Jesus is a classical religious thesis which holds worth with the help of faith. But to a reasonable man, stories of actual death and then resurrection; actual impossibilities (miracles); ascending into the sky; do not repel reasonable doubt. These are violations of logic and commonsense. These stories go beyond the ordinary. It shares as much resemblance with religious fervour and attitudes shown around the world. The book of Mark upon surface view can reasonably be taken to be religious fiction. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Nobody: 12:19pm On May 28, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: Exactly why morality is said to be subjective. Who defines "good" but people and society? Mr_Anony: It's subjective because it depends on the person making the judgement. A conservative religious nigerian would look at San Francisco as a "evil society" and a g@y person from San Francisco(who is an upstanding citizen) could look at a Nigerian church and all the shenanigans and conclude that that is a "evil society". All subjective. Mr_Anony: Yeah, murder, rape and stealing could fit the bill. Mr_Anony: This is incoherent again, unless you know and can show everyone proof of this totalitarian being who sees all, knows all and is able to deliver fair judgment. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 12:25pm On May 28, 2012 |
Martian: My friend, remember the problem is not "describe God in detail" but "does God exist or not?" |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Nobody: 12:33pm On May 28, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: lol, you're not getting off that easy. I'm not a proponent of gods but you're. So, if you can give a coherent explanation of what your god is then maybe we can determnine if it exists or belongs in the same league as Zeus, Kabezya Mpungu, Eledumare and my main man THE GREAT LEPRECHAUN. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 1:40pm On May 28, 2012 |
Kay 17: The point isn't necessarily the about exact nature of the big bang - I am not so much concerned about whether the theory of the big bang is accurate or not. What I am concerned about is whether the universe began at all or is it infinite. Since the universe has a beginning, then it must have been caused by something otherwise we would be saying that the universe came from nothing and by nothing. Now whatever caused the universe to come into existence must in itself be uncaused, timeless, spaceless, and immaterial. This means that it is either this cause is an abstract concept such as shape, colors and numbers or it is a personal (by personal, I don't mean human) mind. Since we know that abstract concepts cannot cause anything into being, we are left with an intelligent personal mind or being. For this reason it is not necessary for God to create the substance of the universe from pre-existing physical substances. For instance assuming we design and program a virtual world software, giving it specific laws and leave it to run on the intelligence of some super-computer. The characters in this virtual world would not be able to explain the physical world because it is alien to their world and the rules may be wildly different, however this does not mean that they cannot be affected by the computer hardware running their world or that the computer does not exist.(this analogy is putting it as best as I can in human terms and doesn't necessarily exactly describe accurately the nature of first cause). My point still remains that no one can say that there is no God with any certainty or at least make any meaningful argument as to why God must not exist. At best what the atheist does is to wait for a "God statement" and try to falsify it. this does not prove his stance to be right in any way whatsoever @Kay17, Logicboy, Martian...........I have to stop here for now as I've got some work to finish. I will come back later at some point to continue on this. I must confess, this has been fun for a bit. To be honest, I would rather I heard strong arguments for atheism rather than endless attempts at disproving the theist. All the best. Cheers [P/s I would have said God bless but then y'all don't believe in God] |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 1:45pm On May 28, 2012 |
Martian: @Martian lol, I just couldn't let this go. I have given arguments as to why God must exist, please give me arguments as to why God must not exist. Note we are not arguing over types of God, but God. yes or no? ...........Oh well, we are going round that same circle again. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Nobody: 2:49pm On May 28, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: And your arguments have been shown not to be sound and they are the same old baseless arguments that theists come up with. You can't make something up, say it must exist, give no coherent description of what it is, then ask someone else why that thing must not exist. I can't say "God" must not exist because I don't know what "God" is. If you say it's the "creator" or it's a "diety", then I must conclude that it's not different from other "creators" like Obatala, Zeus, Jupiter, Pitr, Chukwu etc. Man made mythological characters. What is the difference between your "God" and some other "god"? The uppercase G, that's all. Other than that, God and gods are figments of man's imagination. Mr_Anony: WTF is "God"? Is it the "extraphysical" entity you can't describe? |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Kay17: 2:54pm On May 28, 2012 |
Mr_Anony:I doubt if you read my post. mr _anony: My point still remains that no one can say that there is no God with any certainty or at least make any meaningful argument as to why God must not exist. At best what the atheist does is to wait for a "God statement" and try to falsify it. this does not prove his stance to be right in any way whatsoever God is first a formless/shapeless idea, until whoever who introduces it, describes and defines what it is, it still remains an unknown idea/formless one. You can't ask me to search for what I have no idea of. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Jenwitemi(m): 7:22pm On May 28, 2012 |
Hey. Not so fast, bro. Who told you that whatever caused the universe into existence has to be uncaused or even immaterial? On what principle is this based? For all we know, we could be in an eternal loop of the caused causes. Billions upon billions of universes being caused into existence by billions upon billions of causes that are also caused into existence themselves. Mr_Anony: |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Nobody: 2:54pm On May 29, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Nobody: 2:55pm On May 29, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by logicboy: 3:24pm On May 29, 2012 |
hisblud: Mr Anony is wrong. Stop cheerleading.[size=18pt] Atheist clearly state that there has never been any evidence for the existence of God which is a fact.[/size] |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by cyrexx: 8:15pm On May 29, 2012 |
Anony: The first cause cannot possibly be physical else it would be subject to time and space and hence cannot possibly be the originator of all things physical. Jenwitemi: [size=16pt]Hey. Not so fast, bro. Who told you that whatever caused the universe into existence has to be uncaused or even immaterial? On what principle is this based? For all we know, we could be in an eternal loop of the caused causes. Billions upon billions of universes being caused into existence by billions upon billions of causes that are also caused into existence themselves[/size]. the truth is: NOBODY KNOWS, @least not yet science has not figured it out yet and they dont pretend to know everything religion tells you to have a blind faith because it pretend to know everything |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Kay17: 11:30pm On May 29, 2012 |
Hlsbud and mr anony gods are examples of impossibilities! One can't expect contradictions or supernatural to exist! Its tooo simple. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Nobody: 12:11am On May 30, 2012 |
I was going to jump in on this conversation but, I see Martian and Kay17 pretty much said everything that needed to be said. I especially agree with these statements. Martian: Kay 17: I doubt if you read my post. |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Nobody: 1:42am On May 30, 2012 |
logicboy:am i getting on someone's nerve, ouch kpele oo! Why shouldnt i support what i CHOOSE to support . |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by logicboy: 1:47am On May 30, 2012 |
hisblud: am i getting on someone's nerve, ouch kpele oo! Why shouldnt i support what i CHOOSE to support . Is trolling part of your christian doctrine? |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by jagunlabi(m): 7:34am On May 30, 2012 |
Yes, it does. In many cases, religion can even override conscience to make man do evil things that he would normally not do. As the saying goes, a good man does good deeds, evil man do evil deeds, but it takes a religion to make a good man do evil deeds. Mr_Anony: No, i was not. Karma does augment the golden rule, though. Mr_Anony: Quite on the contrary, bro. To override the conscience to enable you do what you would not normally do, you need God or religion. Example of this is religious terrorism. God instructed me to do it, so i did it. Once God is involved as the initiator of a terrible action, conscience is flushed down the toilet. You are obeying the most high, right, so why listen to your conscience? Of what significance is a conscience when you are obeying the most high? None whatsoever. Can you see the danger? Mr_Anony: Or, the law and the prophecies according to Jesus are the summary of the golden rule. Golden rule has been around much much much longer than Jesus laws and prophecies so it is only logical to think that Jesus based his laws and teachings on an already existing golden rule. Mr_Anony: This is most untrue. Quite on the contrary, like i already mentioned, with a deity it is very easy to ignore the conscience (see religious terrorists) even though it is telling you that what you are dong or about to do is wrong. God is greater than any conscience, right? And the reward for obeying your God is everlasting reward in heaven, no? Mr_Anony: |
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 11:06pm On May 30, 2012 |
Ok so I've been away for sometime now and I have seen some interesting replies most of them I must confess are fallacies. Unfortunately I may not answer to all questions rather I'll highlight a few places where we misunderstand each other then I will proceed to make my case (hopefully a lot clearer so we all can understand) for instance, martian keeps trying to draw me into a "battle of the gods" matter that I really don't want to get into at this point. Kay17 and logicboy mistakenly assume (or at least that's how it looks to me) that I have simply inserted a god in the theories of another amongst other things. Jenwitemi and cyrexx seem to be saying that nobody knows for sure hence I cannot possibly claim to be right, jagunlabi argues morals and hisblud and idehn show support each to his own. All is well. I must admit on reading through the posts that perhaps I have not made myself clear enough however I still haven't seen anyone fault my logic yet or prove me wrong, maybe it is too unclear to even bother I don't know. To make it a lot less complex, I will break down my argument into progressive steps so that so that it is easy to follow and make for clearer refutation, we shall start on a clean slate and only treat one step at a time before moving on to the next. If you are willing, I would rather we argued for truth and not for bragging rights. Remember the reason for "God" in the first place arises from the question "Why am I here i.e. what is the purpose for existence?" Anyway, all that aside here is Step 1 From what we know, every effect has a cause, our reality can be described as a series of causes and effects. We know, the Universe has a definite beginning hence it must have been caused. Do you agree with this statement? If yes we continue to Step 2. If no please tell us why you disagree and what you consider an alternate more accurate statement. (please limit your response to the statement for now abeg!) |
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