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What They Don't Tell You About Atheism - Religion (9) - Nairaland

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Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Kay17: 1:39pm On Sep 11, 2014
MrAnony1:
Lol....you are really a funny lady. Go and look up what it means to argue from silence

Yimu.
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Kay17: 1:46pm On Sep 11, 2014
@anony1

But when you add up all the Gods of this world and their functions as sources of authority, they dwarf your God. And as along as atheism can provide a justifiable cause for religion, it remains valid.

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Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by jayriginal: 12:30pm On Sep 16, 2014
MrAnony1:

Here is a list of things I never said that you said.

I never said that you said that;

We dont divide
We dont give in to natural instincts
We cant separate the weak from the young
We dont need government/police/instruments of the law
People dont derive pleasure from the misery of others

I simply pointed out to you that arguing that you are kind because you are capable of being kind is just as good as saying that you are cruel because you are capable of being cruel. It still doesn't tell us anything about why you should choose to be kind as opposed to being cruel since you are obviously capable of both.


I am afraid but citing empathy and sharing in the "great struggle of humanity" are not valid reasons for why you do good especially since other people who do evil also share the same properties of empathy and the "great struggle of humanity".

Your reason is as bad as a person saying that the reason he tells lies and insults people is because he has a tongue. It will be perfectly in order to point out to the person that other people who also possess tongues don't lie and insult people and hence his reason is unacceptable.


If you have a valid reason for why you ought to do good then please let us hear it. So far you have only succeeded in blowing air



Meh. Lost appetite for this merry go round.
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 12:44pm On Sep 16, 2014
jayriginal:
Meh. Lost appetite for this merry go round.
That's fine, you never really had anything to say anyway.
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by jayriginal: 10:41am On Sep 18, 2014
MrAnony1:
That's fine, you never really had anything to say anyway.

Saying so doesnt make it so. If you wish to address the issues honestly do so and I will respond. I have better things to do than watch you chase your tail.
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 7:46am On Sep 20, 2014
jayriginal:

Saying so doesnt make it so. If you wish to address the issues honestly do so and I will respond. I have better things to do than watch you chase your tail.
Lolololol....so I am now being dishonest for pointing out to you that merely saying "I do good because I can" is not a valid reason to choose good over evil just as saying "I do evil because I can" is not a valid reason to choose evil over good. You lot are beginning to amuse me quite a bit these days.
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by logicboy01: 7:59am On Sep 20, 2014
MrAnony1:
Lolololol....so I am now being dishonest for pointing out to you that merely saying "I do good because I can" is not a valid reason to choose good over evil just as saying "I do evil because I can" is not a valid reason to choose evil over good. You lot are beginning to amuse me quite a bit these days.


Are you still asking what defines an atheist's morality?



Okay, why do you as a christian do good? To help me answer this question; PLEASE LIST REASONS WHY YOU WOULDN'T BEAT UP A 9 YEAR OLD BOY WANDERING ON YOUR STREET.


Please answer the question in bold. No anonyism please. I didnt give a trick question. It is a very simple question
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 10:50pm On Sep 20, 2014
logicboy01:
Okay, why do you as a christian do good?
See here:
https://www.nairaland.com/946581/what-dont-tell-atheism/7#26006565

To help me answer this question; PLEASE LIST REASONS WHY YOU WOULDN'T BEAT UP A 9 YEAR OLD BOY WANDERING ON YOUR STREET.
The reason I won't beat up a 9 year old on my street for no reason is because it is unChristlike (i.e. opposed to the nature of Christ) and therefore wrong.
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by logicboy01: 2:25am On Sep 21, 2014
logicboy01: PLEASE LIST REASONS WHY YOU WOULDN'T BEAT UP A 9 YEAR OLD BOY WANDERING ON YOUR STREET.

MrAnony1:

The reason I won't beat up a 9 year old on my street for no reason is because it is unChristlike (i.e. opposed to the nature of Christ) and therefore wrong.



Thanks for exposing how shallow and ridiculous you are when it comes to morality. So, you didnt feel that these are important reasons not to beat up a 9 year old for no reason;

-injuring the child
-psychologically traumatizing the child
-you wouldnt want the same to happen to your child
-causing pain to the child's parents/guardian (pained that their child was beaten)


Like a religious extremist, the only reason you could give not to beat up a 9 year old child was "my God/holy book/messiah/prophet told me so".




Goodbye.
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 6:47am On Sep 21, 2014
logicboy01:
Thanks for exposing how shallow and ridiculous you are when it comes to morality.
Ad hominem: Calling me shallow and ridiculous doesn't weaken my argument in any way.

So, you didnt feel that these are important reasons not to beat up a 9 year old for no reason;

-injuring the child
-psychologically traumatizing the child
-you wouldnt want the same to happen to your child
-causing pain to the child's parents/guardian (pained that their child was beaten)
Argumentum ex silentio: I never said that any of the above reasons are unimportant.

Like a religious extremist, the only reason you could give not to beat up a 9 year old child was "my God/holy book/messiah/prophet told me so".
Even more ad hominem: calling me a religious extremist doesn't weaken my point in any way.

You will need to actually make a proper argument as to why not beating a child because of the reasons you listed is better than not beating a child because it goes against the nature of Christ.

Goodbye.
Lol...if I had a penny for every time you said goodbye only to show up again, I'd have owned a yacht in Monte Carlo
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Kay17: 8:05am On Sep 21, 2014
@mranony1

Would you willingly take a bullet for someone unknown?

How often do you stop injustice from occuring?

Do you think following Jesus' footsteps is because he is divine and wise?
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 4:45pm On Sep 23, 2014
Kay17: @mranony1

Would you willingly take a bullet for someone unknown?

How often do you stop injustice from occuring?
Where exactly is this line of questioning headed?

Do you think following Jesus' footsteps is because he is divine and wise?
How about because He is God.
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Kay17: 10:22pm On Sep 23, 2014
MrAnony1:
Where exactly is this line of questioning headed?

Just wanted to know if you put your money where your mouth is as a Christian.


How about because He is God.

yes and God is wise, right? cos if he wasn't wise you wouldn't follow him, right?
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 10:34pm On Sep 23, 2014
Kay17:

Just wanted to know if you put your money where your mouth is as a Christian.
Ok I see. . . .and I do put my money where my mouth is as a Christian but even if I was a hypocrite and didn't act according to Christian values, I don't see how they make the Christian lifestyle any less valid. All my hypocrisy would prove is that I am not a Christian and not that Christianity itself is flawed in any way.

yes and God is wise, right? cos if he wasn't wise you wouldn't follow him, right?
He wouldn't be God if He wasn't wise, an unwise being cannot possibly be God. God is necessarily wise.
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Kay17: 10:43pm On Sep 23, 2014
MrAnony1:
Ok I see. . . .and I do put my money where my mouth is as a Christian but even if I was a hypocrite and didn't act according to Christian values, I don't see how they make the Christian lifestyle any less valid. All my hypocrisy would prove is that I am not a Christian and not that Christianity itself is flawed in any way.

Of course, except for impracticality.

He wouldn't be God if He wasn't wise, an unwise being cannot possibly be God. God is necessarily wise.

Now for what end is good for? is it advantageous over its alternative to such an extent that God a wise being is needed to follow?
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 10:46pm On Sep 23, 2014
Kay17:
Of course, except for impracticality.
How so?



Now for what end is good for? is it advantageous over its alternative to such an extent that God a wise being is needed to follow?
Sorry I don't understand the question especially the second part. Please rephrase if you may.
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Kay17: 10:54pm On Sep 23, 2014
Kay17:
Now for what end is good for?
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Kay17: 10:59pm On Sep 23, 2014
MrAnony1:
How so?

because there is an alarming rate of Christian hypocrites. . . but that's a topic for a different day.
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 12:53am On Sep 24, 2014
Kay17:
Now for what end is good for?
Why do good? Because good is what we were created to do. It is the purpose for which we were designed (see Ephesians 2:10)

because there is an alarming rate of Christian hypocrites. . . but that's a topic for a different day.
But this doesn't make Christianity impractical in any way. At best it makes the Christian lifestyle challenging or difficult but definitely not impractical. Unless you are saying that ALL who claim to be Christians are hypocrites for which I will require that you prove it.
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by thehomer: 7:14am On Sep 24, 2014
MrAnony1:
Why do good? Because good is what we were created to do. It is the purpose for which we were designed (see Ephesians 2:10)

I'll ignore the mere assertion that humans were created and the fallacious argument from authority in presenting a random quote in a book. In order to be sure that what is being discussed is the same, how do you know whether or not a certain action or instruction is good?
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Kay17: 9:02am On Sep 24, 2014
MrAnony1:
Why do good? Because good is what we were created to do. It is the purpose for which we were designed (see Ephesians 2:10)

So if we were created to do evil, we'd be justified to do evil??


But this doesn't make Christianity impractical in any way. At best it makes the Christian lifestyle challenging or difficult but definitely not impractical. Unless you are saying that ALL who claim to be Christians are hypocrites for which I will require that you prove it.

Of course. But remember you said yourself that no one is morally consistent. That all have fallen. The implication of falling includes being unable to consistently adhere to Christian values.
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 10:09am On Sep 24, 2014
thehomer:

I'll ignore the mere assertion that humans were created and the fallacious argument from authority in presenting a random quote in a book. In order to be sure that what is being discussed is the same, how do you know whether or not a certain action or instruction is good?

First of all, I must point out that that which is good is by definition that which we ought to do. For it to be true that there are certain things which we ought to do, then it must be true that there is a purpose for which we exist. If it is true that there is a purpose for which we exist, then it must be true that we are designed for that which occurs by chance and not by design cannot be said to have a purpose for it's existence and as a result it cannot be said it ought to act in a certain way and therefore no action it engages in can possibly be either good or evil.

In the question of that which is good, it is impossible to ignore the existence of a Creator. In other words for good to exist in an objective sense, the Creator must necessarily exist.

Now that said, I know an action or instruction is good based on how well it conforms to the will and the purpose of the Creator (a.k.a God) as revealed to us via His Word.
God has set for us an example to follow in the person of Jesus Christ. Anything that is Christlike is good while anything that is unChristlike is evil.

Now, over to you; how do you know whether or not a certain action or instruction is good?
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 10:23am On Sep 24, 2014
Kay17:
So if we were created to do evil, we'd be justified to do evil??
Evil by definition is that which we ought not to do. Perhaps you can explain to me how it is logically coherent for something to be supposed to do what it isn't supposed to do.

Of course. But remember you said yourself that no one is morally consistent. That all have fallen. The implication of falling includes being unable to consistently adhere to Christian values.
Yes I did, and I also remember saying that "one is saved by repenting from their sins, believing in the Lord Jesus Christ (who forgives and cleanses us from sin), forsaking sin and living righteously (with the help of the Holy Spirit)."
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Nobody: 10:28am On Sep 24, 2014
God is nothing but an idea for domination,domination to control and do evil.

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Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Nobody: 10:41am On Sep 24, 2014
MrAnony1:
Evil by definition is that which we ought not to do. Perhaps you can explain to me how it is logically possible for something to be supposed to do what it isn't supposed to do.


Yes I did, and I also remember saying that "one is saved by repenting from their sins, believing in the Lord Jesus Christ (who forgives and cleanses us from sin), forsaking sin and living righteously (with the help of the Holy Spirit)."

EVIL is that which disintegrates,segregates,diversifies. Evil is certainly not what we ought not to do. For example,Christians ought not to question the bible,ought not to question the trinity,tithe and offering mandated by the bible. Christians are not supposed to think for themselves.... ain't that pure domination and evil? Logic is a prohibited act in christiandom.

When the mind is rightly used,there is absolutely no need for Jesus. Repentance is nothing but adjusting your mind from manipulation,brainwash,bible malnutrition etc. We do not need the holy spirit, there is no such thing.

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Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by OlaAjia(m): 2:40pm On Sep 24, 2014
MrAnony1:
First of all, I must point out that that which is good is by definition that which we ought to do.

Why do you assume we ought to do something because it is "good"?

MrAnony1:
For it to be true that there are certain things which we ought to do, then it must be true that there is a purpose for which we exist.

Here, you have merely stated what is, and as a result, what ought to be, yet you have provided no link between the two. Here's an example: I live in China, and I know there exists a Chinese rule that the use of drugs results in the death penalty. Being a lover of life, I know I oughtn't use drugs. As you can see in my simple example, "not using drugs" is something I ought to do, yet, it isn't because not using drugs is the purpose for which I exist, it is merely because using drugs will definitely result in my non-existence, an outcome whose dire consequence will result in me no longer being able to ponder upon the purpose for my existence.

MrAnony1:
If it is true that there is a purpose for which we exist, then it must be true that we are designed, for that which occurs by chance and not by design cannot be said to have a purpose for it's existence and as a result it cannot be said it ought to act in a certain way and therefore no action it engages in can possibly be either good or evil.

The italicised above is a hypothetical, true, supposing the purpose is objective. The subsequent deduction is therefore false, given a subjective purpose. Purposes can be contrived (e.g. pareidolias relating to the flying spaghetti monster), hence bearing no inherent meaning apart from that which is subjectively imposed thereto. Nevertheless, as the foregoing China example demonstrates, this hypothetical is just that, a hypothetical.

MrAnony1:
In the question of that which is good, it is impossible to ignore the existence of a Creator. In other words for good to exist in an objective sense, the Creator must necessarily exist.

But does good exist in an objective sense?

MrAnony1:
Now that said, I know an action or instruction is good based on how well it conforms to the will and the purpose of the Creator (a.k.a God) as revealed to us via His Word.
God has set for us an example to follow in the person of Jesus Christ. Anything that is Christlike is good while anything that is unChristlike is evil.

Can you prove that what you presume to be the will and purpose of the creator is, indeed, the will and purpose of the creator? In addition, by presupposing a "purpose" for this creator, aren't you, according to your italicised text above, implying that the creator was also designed?

MrAnony1:
Now, over to you; how do you know whether or not a certain action or instruction is good?

Subjective wisdom. Personally, my ideological disposition is to maximize pleasure and minimize pain. However, many thought experiments (like the trolley problem) have shown me that I'm not a stoic utilitarian. What they do demonstrate is that when the chips are down, local/personal pleasures often come first.

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Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by Kay17: 5:01pm On Sep 24, 2014
MrAnony1:
Evil by definition is that which we ought not to do. Perhaps you can explain to me how it is logically coherent for something to be supposed to do what it isn't supposed to do.


Remember that earlier you said we are to do good, because we are designed to do good; so using the same logic, if we were designed to be evil, equally we should do evil.


Yes I did, and I also remember saying that "one is saved by repenting from their sins, believing in the Lord Jesus Christ (who forgives and cleanses us from sin), forsaking sin and living righteously (with the help of the Holy Spirit)."

So I will always meet hypocritical Christians who constantly repent rather than follow Christian values consistently?
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by thehomer: 5:31pm On Sep 24, 2014
MrAnony1:
First of all, I must point out that that which is good is by definition that which we ought to do.

Looks like you're going for a circular definition here that thoroughly ignores my question. How do you know that what you ought to do is good? All I see you doing is trying to dance around relating goodness to something having to do with human beings.

MrAnony1:
For it to be true that there are certain things which we ought to do, then it must be true that there is a purpose for which we exist. If it is true that there is a purpose for which we exist, then it must be true that we are designed for that which occurs by chance and not by design cannot be said to have a purpose for it's existence and as a result it cannot be said it ought to act in a certain way and therefore no action it engages in can possibly be either good or evil.

Where does this "purpose for which we exist" come from? Looks to me like another one of your mere assertions that you've decided to hang everything on. Who even says that there is a "purpose for which we exist"?

MrAnony1:
In the question of that which is good, it is impossible to ignore the existence of a Creator. In other words for good to exist in an objective sense, the Creator must necessarily exist.

I don't see how the existence of this creator of yours makes any difference. e.g What if the creator is evil?

MrAnony1:
Now that said, I know an action or instruction is good based on how well it conforms to the will and the purpose of the Creator (a.k.a God) as revealed to us via His Word.

Now we're getting somewhere. I take it that you know what the Christian God's will and purpose are and you think you can determine what it is from the Bible that is so unclear that it has allowed multiple even contradictory sects?

MrAnony1:
God has set for us an example to follow in the person of Jesus Christ. Anything that is Christlike is good while anything that is unChristlike is evil.

With this line, you've successfully not answered any question. What is Christlike? Is it Christlike to command a genocide? Is it Christlike to command that children be killed? Is it Christlike to leave one's family for the sake of some preacher?

MrAnony1:
Now, over to you; how do you know whether or not a certain action or instruction is good?

I know based on whether or not its effects generally help or harm people. I hope you'll be able to give concrete responses to the issues I've raised above.

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Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by UyiIredia(m): 5:53pm On Sep 24, 2014
thehomer:



I know based on whether or not its effects generally help or harm people. I hope you'll be able to give concrete responses to the issues I've raised above.
Circular reasoning. Helping or harming are words that each refer to good or bad; same thing (morality)n different words (good or help). Try a
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 6:15am On Oct 04, 2014
Kay17 post=/post/26581754:

Remember that earlier you said we are to do good, because we are designed to do good; so using the same logic, if we were designed to be evil, equally we should do evil.
Evil by definition is that which we ought not to do. What you are saying is that it is possible to design a thing to function as it was not designed to function . . . .and that is logically incoherent.

So I will always meet hypocritical Christians who constantly repent rather than follow Christian values consistently?
How exactly did you arrive at this statement from what I said?
Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by MrAnony1(m): 7:03am On Oct 04, 2014
OlaAjia post=/post/26577682:


Why do you assume we ought to do something because it is "good"?
That's not what I said. I do not differentiate between good and what ought to be done. They are one and the same.



Here, you have merely stated what is, and as a result, what ought to be, yet you have provided no link between the two. Here's an example: I live in China, and I know there exists a Chinese rule that the use of drugs results in the death penalty. Being a lover of life, I know I oughtn't use drugs. As you can see in my simple example, "not using drugs" is something I ought to do, yet, it isn't because not using drugs is the purpose for which I exist, it is merely because using drugs will definitely result in my non-existence, an outcome whose dire consequence will result in me no longer being able to ponder upon the purpose for my existence.
You completely missed the point made. The point is that where there is an "ought", a purpose must invariably follow. If you ought to do X, there must be a purpose for it. If there is no purpose for doing X then there is no way of rightfully saying that one ought to do X.

For instance, you ought not to use drugs in china because the purpose is to preserve your life. If the purpose is not to preserve your life (i.e. assuming there was no Chinese law against drugs and drugs don't kill you) then there is no point in saying that you ought not to take drugs.

Likewise if there is a certain way that we objectively ought to live our lives then it necessarily follows that there must be an objective purpose for which we live.



The italicised above is a hypothetical, true, supposing the purpose is objective. The subsequent deduction is therefore false, given a subjective purpose. Purposes can be contrived (e.g. pareidolias relating to the flying spaghetti monster), hence bearing no inherent meaning apart from that which is subjectively imposed thereto. Nevertheless, as the foregoing China example demonstrates, this hypothetical is just that, a hypothetical.
Good so we agree that IF it is true that there is a purpose for which we exist, then it must be true that we are designed. (note the IF)


But does good exist in an objective sense?
Yes I believe that good exists in an objective sense. Don't you agree?

(Notice that you do not disagree with the premise that an objective good necessitates the existence of a creator. Rather you question the existence of an objective good.)

Can you prove that what you presume to be the will and purpose of the creator is, indeed, the will and purpose of the creator?
What should this prove look like? What would satisfy your requirements for proof.

In addition, by presupposing a "purpose" for this creator, aren't you, according to your italicised text above, implying that the creator was also designed?
Not at all. The Creator has a purpose in the sense that he purposes (i.e. He has a purpose for His creation). On the other hand, the created has a purpose in the sense that he is purposed (i.e he has a purpose given to him by the Creator) To mix up the different ways "purpose" is used here will be to commit the fallacy of equivocation.


Subjective wisdom. Personally, my ideological disposition is to maximize pleasure and minimize pain. However, many thought experiments (like the trolley problem) have shown me that I'm not a stoic utilitarian. What they do demonstrate is that when the chips are down, local/personal pleasures often come first.
So in other words, you don't know whether certain actions are good. You only subjectively hold an opinion of what may or may not be good (i.e. maximizing pain and minimizing pleasure). You even go further to actively doubt your own opinions.

The problem with this is that you have effectively excluded yourself from any meaningful discussion concerning what is right or wrong. The best you can say is that you have an opinion and that's pretty useless to the discourse since nearly everyone else does. There is no objective standard by which we can say that your opinion of maximizing pleasure is any better than the opinion to maximize pain held by someone else.

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Re: What They Don't Tell You About Atheism by pesty100(m): 8:01am On Oct 04, 2014
MrAnony1:

He wouldn't be God if He wasn't wise, an unwise being cannot possibly be God. God is necessarily wise.
you are making the Fallacy of the single cause , beacause the flying spaghetti monster is also necessarily wise

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