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Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? - Religion (7) - Nairaland

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Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by 401kk: 10:26am On Jun 13, 2012
logicboy:

And you wonder why these societies are backwards.

Morality is subjective


Backwards according to whose standards?

If morality is subjective, name a society, nation or culture where it is morally right to commit murder, ràpe young children, steal and rob.?
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by logicboy: 10:38am On Jun 13, 2012
401kk:

Backwards according to whose standards?

If morality is subjective, name a society, nation or culture where it is morally right to commit murder, ràpe young children, steal and rob.?


Backwards according the the human development index. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index



Murder. America. How many innocent Iraqis were murdered? Did George Bush or his soldiers go to trial for war crimes? What if abortion is murder? Is it legal isn some countries?

Poltical lobbying. Is it entirely illegal to pat law makers to push bills that favour your company?


Stealing. Is fair trade and international trade not stealing? Are Western countries not expoliting African countries in a perfectly legal way for their natural resources?

1 Like

Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by 401kk: 11:01am On Jun 13, 2012
logicboy:


Backwards according the the human development index. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

It is their standard, not ours. We are not obliged to live up to them.




Murder. America. How many innocent Iraqis were murdered? Did George Bush or his soldiers go to trial for war crimes? What if abortion is murder? Is it legal isn some countries?

So you're basically that commiting murder is moral in the United States? Why don't you go to Texas, kill Bush and see how it goes?
The United S. was at war, thats a different scenario.


Poltical lobbying. Is it entirely illegal to pat law makers to push bills that favour your company?


Huh?



Stealing. Is fair trade and international trade not stealing? Are Western countries not expoliting African countries in a perfectly legal way for their natural resources?

You seem lost and you're trying to complicate simple issues you seem not to understand. Try and be reasonable please.



[/quote]
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by logicboy: 12:09pm On Jun 13, 2012
401kk:
It is their standard, not ours. We are not obliged to live up to them.



So you're basically that commiting murder is moral in the United States? Why don't you go to Texas, kill Bush and see how it goes?
The United S. was at war, thats a different scenario.



Huh?




You seem lost and you're trying to complicate simple issues you seem not to understand. Try and be reasonable please.








I should have known that you're ignorant. West Africa is clearly backwards in human development and yet, you try to argue against evidence? What are the education levels, income levels and life expectancy for the average West African? As a Nigerian, is the poverty and illiteracy that you see in Nigeria a step forward or backwards?

You prove my point by saying that the Iraq war is justified. There are two whole groups that are against the Iraq war and call it genocide. Most Arab nations and liberals. Whose morality is right? What was the justification if the Iraq war again?


If you dont understand the failure of fair trade and the exploitative nature of international trade between the West and Africa, then shut up. Dont argue out of ignorance.
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by 401kk: 3:31pm On Jun 13, 2012
logicboy:



I should have known that you're ignorant. West Africa is clearly backwards in human development and yet, you try to argue against evidence? What are the education levels, income levels and life expectancy for the average West African? As a Nigerian, is the poverty and illiteracy that you see in Nigeria a step forward or backwards?

You prove my point by saying that the Iraq war is justified. There are two whole groups that are against the Iraq war and call it genocide. Most Arab nations and liberals. Whose morality is right? What was the justification if the Iraq war again?


If you dont understand the failure of fair trade and the exploitative nature of international trade between the West and Africa, then shut up. Dont argue out of ignorance.





1. You are a fat foool: The HDI was created by the europeans to gauge their standard of living compared to other continents and races. They are judging your ignorant life according to their standard.

2. You are mad: It is immoral to commit murder anywhere in the world regardless of religion and culture. In cases of wars (whether justified or not), killing (not murder) can be justified because your opponents are enemies.

3. You brain needs to be fumigated if you call an exchange stealing.
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by logicboy: 3:50pm On Jun 13, 2012
401kk:

1. You are a fat foool: The HDI was created by the europeans to gauge their standard of living compared to other continents and races. They are judging your ignorant life according to their standard.

Does it really matter who tells the truth? The truth remains true despite the messenger. For your information, the HDI was formed by an Indian and Pakistani.

Furthermore, whatever standard you use, Nigeria is a backwards country. Our literacy levels are behind many countries. What about electricity? Does the average Nigerian have constant access to the internet? No.

401kk:
2. You are mad: It is immoral to commit murder anywhere in the world regardless of religion and culture. In cases of wars (whether justified or not), killing (not murder) can be justified because your opponents are enemies.


You just said that killing an enemy in an unjustified war is not murder. You are foolish.


401kk:
3. You brain needs to be fumigated if you call an exchange stealing.

Exchange? Selling natural resources to foreign entities and pocketing the money in one person's account instead of putting it for the benefit of the state or people is exchange?

Do you call cheating "exchange"? Where foriegn entities are allowed to buy as much cocoa but they would not allow us to sell the same amount in finished products like chocolate to their countries?


You are very ignorant
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by SNCOQ3(m): 7:23pm On Jun 13, 2012
2good:

Is Atheism/ Agnosticism immoral?

No. But its foolishness. There are moral people who don't believe in God.
-edit- as far as i know, this 'subjective moralists' atheist/agnostics known as humanist believe in doing good. Objective morality cannot exist without God.

Are you a secular humanist?
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by Nobody: 7:41pm On Jun 13, 2012
This is a silly thread, anyway....

logicboy:
Exchange? Selling natural resources to foreign entities and pocketing the money in one person's account instead of putting it for the benefit of the state or people is exchange?

The corruption is on the part of the people who pocket the state/people's money. But what do you expect from a statist economy like Nigeria with underlying corruption? The problem is an oversized government.

logicboy:
Do you call cheating "exchange"? Where foriegn entities are allowed to buy as much cocoa but they would not allow us to sell the same amount in finished products like chocolate to their countries?

Easy, all you have to do is put tariffs on their goods to keep them out but keep in mind that if you do, they will do the same and we all know who suffers in that situation.The best bet in a global economy like ours, is for Nigeria to overhaul the economic policies and regulations,then produce goods that can meet international standards. If your chocolate isn't up to par, you won't be able to sell it. Curb corruption, privatize electricity, and energy and you have something to build on.
Instead of complaining about ecomonic policies and using it as a yardstick for this ill advised debate on morality, why don't you go study some economics.
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by Nobody: 7:53pm On Jun 13, 2012
SNCOQ3:
Objective morality cannot exist without God.

How can it be said to be objective when some people are of the opinion that chritian dogma and doctrines are steeped in immorality.

The foundation of your faith itself is the epitome of immorality. The concept of original sin is despicable immorality.
How can you burden a person with a guilt stemming from a sin they never committed??
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by Nobody: 8:55pm On Jun 13, 2012
With almost all indications Nigerian society is not in anyway morally better than the US. I have spared the time to dabble into this matter.With the little resources available to me by provided evidences which support many claims here, there is every tendency to prove that morality can not be measured in any way as most people are alluding to here.

However, both societies having different laws and ways of living all rather life styles one would quickly conclude there is no evidence supporting the fact that Nigeria is morally better than the US or the other way round.

After reading some comments here on how much the Nigeria society has failed to understand their overrated moral standard or virtue, I feel inept to accept those few ideas with all enthusiasm. Not to the few of those looking at it from a better perspective - those who refer to the subjective part of morality but those going about with some hypes. Indeed, we all know very well that being naked has existed in some part of Nigerian culture and it is a tradition. It is a natural thing to some because of the attachment to cultural practices and traditions. We have seen this to have infringed on the right of female gender. To that, there are plethora of factors which are missing. We usually forget these factors which control every society. Yet, many Nigerians are quick to claim how morally upright they are. It also baffles me to hear that Nigerian society is even going worse off when other factors are brought into perspective. And, another thing is that many people here view morality solely on the grand of worshiping headers or senior citizens. That alone is absolutely absurd as a view.

To conclude what I think about this non-quantifiable topic, my contribution would only ascertain what others, with foresight and are reasonable, have already said. That is, there is no way the Nigerian society can be morally better than the US in absolute term but there are areas which likely they are better of relatively. Still, returning back to the subjective part of morality.
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by Ptolomeus(m): 9:33pm On Jun 13, 2012
401kk: In cases of wars (whether justified or not), killing (not murder) can be justified because your opponents are enemies.
Are you sure?
The most of the time a war starts with a lie, with the excuse of war are violat.ed, tortured, killed innocents.
What do we justify?
You've read about the latest U.S. war campaigns?
Allow me to disagree.
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by Ptolomeus(m): 9:36pm On Jun 13, 2012
Martian:

How can it be said to be objective when some people are of the opinion that chritian dogma and doctrines are steeped in immorality.

The foundation of your faith itself is the epitome of immorality. The concept of original sin is despicable immorality.
How can you burden a person with a guilt stemming from a sin they never committed??
Excellent answer.
I subscribe
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by logicboy: 9:56pm On Jun 13, 2012
Martian: This is a silly thread, anyway....

Why is it silly?


Martian:
The corruption is on the part of the people who pocket the state/people's money. But what do you expect from a statist economy like Nigeria with underlying corruption? The problem is an oversized government.

We are saying the same thing.


Martian:
Easy, all you have to do is put tariffs on their goods to keep them out but keep in mind that if you do, they will do the same and we all know who suffers in that situation.The best bet in a global economy like ours, is for Nigeria to overhaul the economic policies and regulations,then produce goods that can meet international standards. If your chocolate isn't up to par, you won't be able to sell it. Curb corruption, privatize electricity, and energy and you have something to build on.

Think before you talk. The overall point is that the West call it fair trade, when it is at a disadvantage to the West African economies. Two different schools of thought. The Western economists know the problems facing Africa but accept the problems. Asian and African progressives see this fair trade as unfair trade.


Martian:
Instead of complaining about ecomonic policies and using it as a yardstick for this ill advised debate on morality, why don't you go study some economics.


Before you start acting like a smartazz on a subject that is common knowledge, look at what I am debating before condemning the debate.

The point is that immorality is subjective; some will see an economic policy as fair and some will see it as unfair.


Also notice that I did not only mention economic policies, I talked about war/politics.
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by Nobody: 10:02pm On Jun 13, 2012
Nigeria is no way morally upright than US.
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by logicboy: 10:04pm On Jun 13, 2012
all4naija: With almost all indications Nigerian society is not in anyway morally better than the US. I have spared the time to dabble into this matter.With the little resources available to me by provided evidences which support many claims here, there is every tendency to prove that morality can not be measured in any way as most people are alluding to here.

However, both societies having different laws and ways of living all rather life styles one would quickly conclude there is no evidence supporting the fact that Nigeria is morally better than the US or the other way round.

After reading some comments here on how much the Nigeria society has failed to understand their overrated moral standard or virtue, I feel inept to accept those few ideas with all enthusiasm. Not to the few of those looking at it from a better perspective - those who refer to the subjective part of morality but those going about with some hypes. Indeed, we all know very well that being naked has existed in some part of Nigerian culture and it is a tradition. It is a natural thing to some because of the attachment to cultural practices and traditions. We have seen this to have infringed on the right of female gender. To that, there are plethora of factors which are missing. We usually forget these factors which control every society. Yet, many Nigerians are quick to claim how morally upright they are. It also baffles me to hear that Nigerian society is even going worse off when other factors are brought into perspective. And, another thing is that many people here view morality solely on the grand of worshiping headers or senior citizens. That alone is absolutely absurd as a view.

To conclude what I think about this non-quantifiable topic, my contribution would only ascertain what others, with foresight and reasonable, have already said. That is, there is no way the Nigerian society can be morally better than the US in absolute term but there are areas which likely they are better of relatively. Still, returning back to the subjective part of morality.







100% agree. Thanks for the comment!
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by 401kk: 11:26pm On Jun 13, 2012
logicboy:

Does it really matter who tells the truth? The truth remains true despite the messenger. For your information, the HDI was formed by an Indian and Pakistani.

Furthermore, whatever standard you use, Nigeria is a backwards country. Our literacy levels are behind many countries. What about electricity? Does the average Nigerian have constant access to the internet? No.



You just said that killing an enemy in an unjustified war is not murder. You are foolish.




Exchange? Selling natural resources to foreign entities and pocketing the money in one person's account instead of putting it for the benefit of the state or people is exchange?

Do you call cheating "exchange"? Where foriegn entities are allowed to buy as much cocoa but they would not allow us to sell the same amount in finished products like chocolate to their countries?


You are very ignorant

You are a dumb and senseless kid.
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by eddiebomba(m): 11:27pm On Jun 13, 2012
To every one arguing about the supposed higher morality of nigeria compared to the US, I ask the following questions: If nigeria was morally superior, then why is it that most of us - if not ALL of us - would metaphorically or even literally kill for the chance to live and work in the US, with all its supposed moral decadence?! Why would so many of us eagerly rush to America - not to mention the UK or other western nations - just to give birth to our children there so we can proudly parade them to others as "American citizens" (the hypocrisy of this practice is so, so nauseating!!) How many American citizens have you heard of who choose to have their kids here in Nigeria -even among those of Nigerian origin? That's right - NEXT TO ZERO!! We have no right to talk about superior morality when so many of us would gladly rush abroad to enjoy another man's high quality of life - a quality of life we refuse to provide for ourselves here, in the only country God in his wisdom has given to us,& with such an embarrassment of resources to boot! Let's just face the bitter truth: all this talk about how moral we are just boils down to us Nigerians exhibiting not only our chronic inferiority complex, but also the most pitiful level of morality - FALSE MORALITY!!!
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by 401kk: 11:33pm On Jun 13, 2012
Ptolomeus:
Are you sure?
The most of the time a war starts with a lie, with the excuse of war are violat.ed, tortured, killed innocents.
What do we justify?
You've read about the latest U.S. war campaigns?
Allow me to disagree.

Some wars are justifiable, instances are when a group of people are being oppressed/killed unjustly and fighting back is the only option.
Death, rápe, starvation etc are sacrifices we make while at war.
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by logicboy: 11:37pm On Jun 13, 2012
401kk:

You are a dumb and senseless kid.


Na so the truth dey pain you?
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by SNCOQ3(m): 7:07am On Jun 14, 2012
401kk:

Some wars are justifiable, instances are when a group of people are being oppressed/killed unjustly and fighting back is the only option.
Death, rápe, starvation etc are sacrifices we make while at war.

Just to butrress your point:

“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.”
-John Stuart Mill

“when law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law.”
-Frederic Bastiat


“one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.”
-Martin Luther King Jr

401kk, please note the allusion to objective morality in the respective quote.
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by SNCOQ3(m): 7:46am On Jun 14, 2012
Martian:

How can it be said to be objective when some people are of the opinion that chritian dogma and doctrines are steeped in immorality.

The foundation of your faith itself is the epitome of immorality. The concept of original sin is despicable immorality.
How can you burden a person with a guilt stemming from a sin they never committed??

Do you believe in objective morality ?
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by Nobody: 2:01pm On Jun 14, 2012
SNCOQ3:
Do you believe in objective morality ?

I think, if "reasonable" people were to agree on "objective morality" that should be the standard in any civilized human society, it would be the outlaw of rape, murder and theft of private/public property alongside unequivocal human right for every person to exist as he/she sees fit without hindrance from the rest of society and without the burden of too much governance(extreme socialism, communism, totalitarianism,authoritranism and Nigerianism); as long as those actions do not intefere with the well being of fellow citizens.

The "objective morality" attributed to the Judeo christian god makes a mockery of morality. It makes the vilest and most bigoted actions humans can perpetrate against each other to be "moral" as long it's to the glory of some diety.
It is in this definition of morality that you see humans fantasizing about their fellow humans burning in a "lake of fire". Have you ever seen an active volcano crater? You can call me immoral if you want, but I am sure that my immorality is better than the morality of someone that wishes....no, believes and hopes that this will happen to some people someday. That is despicable. Anyone calling that a "god of love" makes a mockery of that most beautiful of emotions.

1 Like

Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by Nobody: 2:13pm On Jun 14, 2012
.
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by 401kk: 2:58pm On Jun 14, 2012
SNCOQ3:

Just to butrress your point:

“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.”
-John Stuart Mill

“when law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law.”
-Frederic Bastiat


“one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.”
-Martin Luther King Jr

401kk, please note the allusion to objective morality in the respective quote.

Anybody who believes that morality is totally subjective is not sound. If morality is subjective, that also means that the holocaust and other crimes against humanity can be justified?
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by 2good(m): 3:01pm On Jun 14, 2012
401kk:

Anybody who believes that morality is totally subjective is not sound. If morality is subjective, that also means that the holocaust and other crimes against humanity can be justified?

Anyone who think morality is based on Christianity or Jesus Christ is also not sound.
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by Nobody: 3:13pm On Jun 14, 2012
2good:
Anyone who think morality is based on Christianity or Jesus Christ is also not sound.

that's the irony when christians claim that Jesus' teachings and the doctrines of their faith are the epitome of morality. But the thing is, the virtuos aspects of christian doctrines are not exclusive to christianity; and history, as much as we can be sure of, shows us that peaceable societies predated christianity. On the other hand, the other things christians argue to be moral are looked upon as bigotry on that part of almost everyone else that doens't belong to their faith or share their "current" prejudices.............it used to be "niggers", now the "niggers" have joined the "ofay crackas" in hating the "f@ggots"

So this idea that mankind were brutes before the advent of these jewish mythlogical figures is just asinine.
Even the so called golden rule that some christians love to attribute to jesus was in existence before jesus was written about.People neglect the fact that the "golden rule" itself is the foundation of civilized societies. To be civil, man has to tolerate his neighbors, man may choose not to love his neighbors, but he has to tolerate them.

It's basic survival, but when attributed to some religious figure, it becomes "profound".
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by 2good(m): 4:15pm On Jun 14, 2012
Martian:

that's the irony when christians claim that Jesus' teachings and the doctrines of their faith are the epitome of morality. But the thing is, the virtuos aspects of christian doctrines are not exclusive to christianity; and history, as much as we can be sure of, shows us that peaceable societies predated christianity. On the other hand, the other things christians argue to be moral are looked upon as bigotry on that part of almost everyone else that doens't belong to their faith or share their "current" prejudices.............it used to be "niggers", now the "niggers" have joined the "ofay crackas" in hating the "f@ggots"

So this idea that mankind were brutes before the advent of these jewish mythlogical figures is just asinine.
Even the so called golden rule that some christians love to attribute to jesus was in existence before jesus was written about.People neglect the fact that the "golden rule" itself is the foundation of civilized societies. To be civil, man has to tolerate his neighbors, man may choose not to love his neighbors, but he has to tolerate them.

It's basic survival, but when attributed to some religious figure, it becomes "profound".

Its so narrow minded of people to confidently say that their religion is the only way to objective morality. Some of my best friends are Indians practising Hinduism and these guys don't drink, smoke, party, chase girls all in the name of their religion and deep cultural orientation. They are better than the average religiously bigot Nigerian I come across yet people will want me to believe they are immoral just because they are not Christians. I remember being taught as a Christian child that Indians worship demon bla bla bla. Being an adult that have seen different part of the world and witness how religion and culture influence the way of life of people, I feel sad at how deluded and narrow minded by country men are.
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by Nobody: 4:53pm On Jun 14, 2012
2good:

Its so narrow minded of people to confidently say that their religion is the only way to objective morality. Some of my best friends are Indians practising Hinduism and these guys don't drink, smoke, party, chase girls all in the name of their religion and deep cultural orientation. They are better than the average religiously bigot Nigerian .

Their caste sytem is abhorrent though................but i hope to exploit it one day. lol ....I have a dream!!!
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by SNCOQ3(m): 7:40pm On Jun 14, 2012
Martian:

I think, if "reasonable" people were to agree on "objective morality" that should be the standard in any civilized human society, it would be the outlaw of rape, murder and theft of private/public property alongside unequivocal human right for every person to exist as he/she sees fit without hindrance from the rest of society and without the burden of too much governance(extreme socialism, communism, totalitarianism,authoritranism and Nigerianism); as long as those actions do not intefere with the well being of fellow citizens.

The "objective morality" attributed to the Judeo christian god makes a mockery of morality. It makes the vilest and most bigoted actions humans can perpetrate against each other to be "moral" as long it's to the glory of some diety.
It is in this definition of morality that you see humans fantasizing about their fellow humans burning in a "lake of fire". Have you ever seen an active volcano crater? You can call me immoral if you want, but I am sure that my immorality is better than the morality of someone that wishes....no, believes and hopes that this will happen to some people someday. That is despicable. Anyone calling that a "god of love" makes a mockery of that most beautiful of emotions.

Thanks for your reply. If you would be kind enough to respond to another question:

Do you believe truth is absolute? - that truth is not dependent on consensus of opinion?
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by 401kk: 7:53pm On Jun 14, 2012
2good:

Anyone who think morality is based on Christianity or Jesus Christ is also not sound.

Morality has always been based on religion. Where do you think morals come from?
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by logicboy: 8:11pm On Jun 14, 2012
401kk:

Morality has always been based on religion. Where do you think morals come from?

Humans and their interactions with others.


Morality does not come from religion. That is only an illusion. Do you need religion to tell you not to kill people? The Piraha trieb are an atheist tribe which have their own moral code.


Dont be ignorant
Re: Is Nigeria Morally Better Than U.S? by 2good(m): 8:16pm On Jun 14, 2012
401kk:

Morality has always been based on religion. Where do you think morals come from?

You are completely narrow minded for thinking morality is a product of religion. I wouldn't continue this argument because religion blanks the mind and prevent one from thinking outside a restricted space so no matter what I say, you will not budge, so continue to believe what you want to while allowing others to have freedom to live their life the way they want irrespective of whether it contradicts your ideology.

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