Nairaland Forum

ZUBY77: Cool. I love that.
Anything that can hasten the divison of this non-working marriage is welcomed and endorsed by me. I am not interested in yelling GOD PLEASE COME AND HELP NGERIA because God already left this Country.

hw old re u? Were u born a m.o.r.o.n?

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samkoro: One error, just one, and the entire Quran becomes a lie because it claims to be the letter for letter dictation of God. And if that claim is a lie then so is the rest of it. I think we can all agree pon that much.

72. Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.

So here, it's clearly talking about Christian beliefs

73. Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God,.....

Here it says one of three, not one of four or ten or many, exactly one of three. That's the Christian Trinity. Trinity means three, not four, not ten not many.

75. The Messiah, son of Marium is but an apostle; apostles before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food.

Here, it mentions the other two and tells us why they are not Gods besides Allah

116. And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it;....

And here, it clearly confirms that the other two were indeed Jesus and Mary as 75 claims.

So here, we clearly have the Trinity being misunderstood as speaking about God, Jesus and Mary, rather than God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. In fact, not once does the Quran ever correctly mention Christians believing the Holy Spirit was the third aspect of the Trinity. So how could the creator of the universe make such a blatant error?? The answer is, he didn't, Muhammad did. How could Muhammad make this error? Very easily. Some Christians honored Mary so much that it is easy to see how an outside observer could think they take her as God and part of the Trinity. but in truth, the Trinity has always consisted of the Holy Spirit, not Mary. At most, Mary was worshiped as an intercessor, not a God of the Trinity. Christians would pray to Mary to ask her to pray to God on their behalf. They do not ask Jesus to do this because they believe he IS God and part of the Trinity. So although, there was what I would call excessive devotion to Mary, she still was not considered a God, Muhammad just mistakenly thought she was, which is why he scolded them for it through his Allah hand puppet.

So my question to Muslims is, how could you have possibly glossed over and missed such a clear and blatant error?? How could you still believe the Quran is the letter for letter dictation of God?? God doesn't make misunderstandings of people's beliefs, humans like Muhammad do. It's so obvious and staring you right in the face. How can you not see it? Is your need for Islam to be true so strong that you can live in denial and lie to yourself if need b

you misunderstood Islam, it means believing in Allah and his messenger(Muhammad) and the last day. The five pillars of faith are; believing in Allah and his messenger, 5 daily prayers, zakat(giving out alms to the needy), fasting, hajj(pilgrimage to mecca once in a life time if you have the means). you can visit islamic centers online or offline free.

Can u show me in ur so call bible where chritenity was mentioned as religion? Or where jesus son of mary call himsef son of God?what was there in niamiah 8 v 6 to 8, u are wasting ur time, i pity for you.

samkoro: One error, just one, and the entire Quran becomes a lie because it claims to be the letter for letter dictation of God. And if that claim is a lie then so is the rest of it. I think we can all agree pon that much.

72. Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.

So here, it's clearly talking about Christian beliefs

73. Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God,.....

Here it says one of three, not one of four or ten or many, exactly one of three. That's the Christian Trinity. Trinity means three, not four, not ten not many.

75. The Messiah, son of Marium is but an apostle; apostles before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food.

Here, it mentions the other two and tells us why they are not Gods besides Allah

116. And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it;....

And here, it clearly confirms that the other two were indeed Jesus and Mary as 75 claims.

So here, we clearly have the Trinity being misunderstood as speaking about God, Jesus and Mary, rather than God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. In fact, not once does the Quran ever correctly mention Christians believing the Holy Spirit was the third aspect of the Trinity. So how could the creator of the universe make such a blatant error?? The answer is, he didn't, Muhammad did. How could Muhammad make this error? Very easily. Some Christians honored Mary so much that it is easy to see how an outside observer could think they take her as God and part of the Trinity. but in truth, the Trinity has always consisted of the Holy Spirit, not Mary. At most, Mary was worshiped as an intercessor, not a God of the Trinity. Christians would pray to Mary to ask her to pray to God on their behalf. They do not ask Jesus to do this because they believe he IS God and part of the Trinity. So although, there was what I would call excessive devotion to Mary, she still was not considered a God, Muhammad just mistakenly thought she was, which is why he scolded them for it through his Allah hand puppet.

So my question to Muslims is, how could you have possibly glossed over and missed such a clear and blatant error?? How could you still believe the Quran is the letter for letter dictation of God?? God doesn't make misunderstandings of people's beliefs, humans like Muhammad do. It's so obvious and staring you right in the face. How can you not see it? Is your need for Islam to be true so strong that you can live in denial and lie to yourself if need b

[

quote author=samkoro]
One error, just one, and the entire Quran becomes a lie because it claims to be the letter for letter dictation of God. And if that claim is a lie then so is the rest of it. I think we can all agree pon that much.

72. Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.

So here, it's clearly talking about Christian beliefs

73. Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God,.....

Here it says one of three, not one of four or ten or many, exactly one of three. That's the Christian Trinity. Trinity means three, not four, not ten not many.

75. The Messiah, son of Marium is but an apostle; apostles before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food.

Here, it mentions the other two and tells us why they are not Gods besides Allah

116. And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it;....

And here, it clearly confirms that the other two were indeed Jesus and Mary as 75 claims.

So here, we clearly have the Trinity being misunderstood as speaking about God, Jesus and Mary, rather than God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. In fact, not once does the Quran ever correctly mention Christians believing the Holy Spirit was the third aspect of the Trinity. So how could the creator of the universe make such a blatant error?? The answer is, he didn't, Muhammad did. How could Muhammad make this error? Very easily. Some Christians honored Mary so much that it is easy to see how an outside observer could think they take her as God and part of the Trinity. but in truth, the Trinity has always consisted of the Holy Spirit, not Mary. At most, Mary was worshiped as an intercessor, not a God of the Trinity. Christians would pray to Mary to ask her to pray to God on their behalf. They do not ask Jesus to do this because they believe he IS God and part of the Trinity. So although, there was what I would call excessive devotion to Mary, she still was not considered a God, Muhammad just mistakenly thought she was, which is why he scolded them for it through his Allah hand puppet[quote]

LOL.
For your mind you don finish Muslims abi? And why are you bringing religion into this issue? The news report says gunmen killed people and you immediately start thinking about Muslims. hm.
Anyway let me correct your mistake.
This issue about the Holy Trinity is different from it was in earlier times. Going back to earlier sources, prior to the establishment of the Catholic Church, especially in the Gnostic Gospels, the trinity is more than the union of father, son and holy spirit. It is the unity of the masculine (father), feminine (spirit) and intermediary (son). The original Hebrew term for ghost was 'ruah', which is definitely feminine. During the council of Nicea, ruah was translated into the Greek pneuma, which is gender neutral. That is why the aspect of Mary eing the third pard was discarded.
Islam, which had access to Original Christian text that were either burned or lost by the Catholic Church made a correct interpretation of the Trinity as a unity of God-Jesus-Mary.

Secondly,

[quote author=samkoro]One error, just one, and the entire Quran becomes a lie because it claims to be the letter for letter dictation of God. And if that claim is a lie then so is the rest of it. I think we can all agree pon that much.[quote]

If you want to talk about errors invalidating an entire book, then you should look towards your Bible first.


As a side note;

Muslims please read and know what Islam teaches so that people like this samkoro will not just come up with silly misunderstood copy-pasted materials from the internet to lead you astray.

Peace.

when the say gunmen,the should be specific,cos anybody with a gun is a gunman,the gunmen can be the police,airforce,navy,army,or their paymaster bokoharam.

ebamma: instead of saying bokoharam the are saying gunmen,

cant but call u a fool...
So all gunmen is now boko haram?
Oh...could remember those thieves that rob sm banks in ikare, ondo state re noko haram members too...fool!

samkoro: One error, just one, and the entire Quran becomes a lie because it claims to be the letter for letter dictation of God. And if that claim is a lie then so is the rest of it. I think we can all agree pon that much.

72. Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.

So here, it's clearly talking about Christian beliefs

73. Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God,.....

Here it says one of three, not one of four or ten or many, exactly one of three. That's the Christian Trinity. Trinity means three, not four, not ten not many.

75. The Messiah, son of Marium is but an apostle; apostles before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food.

Here, it mentions the other two and tells us why they are not Gods besides Allah

116. And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it;....

And here, it clearly confirms that the other two were indeed Jesus and Mary as 75 claims.

So here, we clearly have the Trinity being misunderstood as speaking about God, Jesus and Mary, rather than God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. In fact, not once does the Quran ever correctly mention Christians believing the Holy Spirit was the third aspect of the Trinity. So how could the creator of the universe make such a blatant error?? The answer is, he didn't, Muhammad did. How could Muhammad make this error? Very easily. Some Christians honored Mary so much that it is easy to see how an outside observer could think they take her as God and part of the Trinity. but in truth, the Trinity has always consisted of the Holy Spirit, not Mary. At most, Mary was worshiped as an intercessor, not a God of the Trinity. Christians would pray to Mary to ask her to pray to God on their behalf. They do not ask Jesus to do this because they believe he IS God and part of the Trinity. So although, there was what I would call excessive devotion to Mary, she still was not considered a God, Muhammad just mistakenly thought she was, which is why he scolded them for it through his Allah hand puppet.

So my question to Muslims is, how could you have possibly glossed over and missed such a clear and blatant error?? How could you still believe the Quran is the letter for letter dictation of God?? God doesn't make misunderstandings of people's beliefs, humans like Muhammad do. It's so obvious and staring you right in the face. How can you not see it? Is your need for Islam to be true so strong that you can live in denial and lie to yourself if need b

Guy you just totally bleeped up big time. Religious bigots like you will keep twisting and interpreting things to conform with your twisted mind.
Are the catholics not the original christians, practicing according to st peter, Jesus direct disciple? Don't they honour her statue or rather have symbolic representative of her? That according to Islam is idolatory, Islam discourages praying through any form of object.
Also, read the Quran well,Jesus is special to Him and is from his spirit, but he didn't create mankind to worship him. You hardly hear God in praise, mostly Jesus my God, you did this and that while he thanks God for miracles while alive.
We have derailed the thread enough, open another forum and let's iron it outm
May the soul of those killed rest in peace, sad that the bokos are now doing american gangstar drive by shootings. A pointer still that it is not about religion.

Billyonaire: Its now apparent that some persons are sponsoring the killing of innocents people to proof that insecurity is GEJ's lapses, but I think the best thing is for the press to stop covering these deaths cos most times mischief makers feel sense of aggrandizement when press carries news of their nefarious activities

Did you say BEST
How can covering up the news of dead Nigerians ßξ the BEST option..

The BEST thing is for the President to bring the "sponsors" to book. He claims to know them, that they are even in his government, yet he can't arrest ‎​Άŋϑ prosecute them...

Some suspects have been arrested in the past, what is the outcome of the investigation..??
Didn't they name their sponsors...

Don't ßξ deceived, Azazi said PDP is the root cause of BH...
Tukur said BH is fighting for justice.....
Sambo, Ndume etc have been implicated in the BH mess.... Yet you said the press should act like all is well..

I think blind support for GEJ is making you DAFT....NoOffenseMeant

Thanks for your post.

Did I just read "only 3 people lost there lives"...who makes such statements

its a clear note that our oga incharge has nothing to do with all this killings they just want to tanish the image of a young man turned old because of this senseless country .....may GOD HELP US!!!!!!! those that were shut dead, may dey rest in peace investigators should check wether their hands are clean cos u never can tell

ZUBY77: Cool. I love that.
Anything that can hasten the divison of this non-working marriage is welcomed and endorsed by me. I am not interested in yelling GOD PLEASE COME AND HELP NGERIA because God already left this Country.

seconded smh! though the blood shed ain't cool.

So the people in the North have yet to learn that you should start running once you see a Honda Civic?

boko haram again!!!

Whn wil 9ja stp doing funny thngs but serious issue?
DJ WISDYTECH

Billyonaire: Its now apparent that some persons are sponsoring the killing of innocents people to proof that insecurity is GEJ's lapses, but I think the best thing is for the press to stop covering these deaths cos most times mischief makers feel sense of aggrandizement when press carries news of their nefarious activities

my broda ure corect let dm continue 2 blame gudluk nd we shal se where it wil lead nija.wat ds pepl re dong in kano is wat dy did in bornu,bt dm go tire sha

Samkoro please find below a comprehensive rebuttal of your ignorannt allegations against the Glorious Quran

Did the Quran get the Trinity wrong?

By Sami Zaatari



One common claim that is made against the Quran by the Christians is that the Quran doesn't understand the Trinity, that the Quran's understanding of the Trinity is wrong, and ignorant.

The Christians make the claim that Islam believed that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a member of the Trinity. For instance they quote the following verse:

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [Qur'an 5:116]



So from this verse the Christian asserts that the Quran did not know what the Trinity was, as Mary is not in the Trinity, hence the Quran was wrong. For starters the Christians themselves have committed the mistake, not the Quran, if anyone reads Surah 5:116 (the above quoted verse) they will see that the verse says NOTHING about a Trinity. So we need to ask our Christian friends from where do they assert that this verse is mentioning the Trinity? The Christian has simply read what is not there.

In fact in the very same Surah, in passage 73, the Quran does mention the Trinity:

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. (5:73)

In this passage the Quran does mention the Trinity, yet it says nothing about Mary being included in the Trinity of the Christians. The Quran also mentions the Trinity in another Surah:

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. (4:171)

Here again the Quran attacks the Trinity, yet again there is nothing about Mary. So already we can see a problem with the Christian argument, the Quran when it attacks the Trinity it mentions the Trinity quite clearly, and when it does so it says nothing about Mary being involved within the Trinity. Now when the Quran mentions Jesus and Mary being worshiped as gods it never mentions the Trinity at all!

So the burden of proof is now on the Christian, show us where the Quran says anything about Mary being in the Trinity, I have quoted two passages from the Quran which attack the Trinity, and neither of these two passages say that Mary is in the Trinity.

So the Quran attacks both the Trinity, as well as Christians who have wrongly raised Mary to such a high degree that she has become like a god. Here is the proof that some Christians have turned Mary into a godly figure:

http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html



As a faithful Catholic, and later as a nun, I was devoted to Mary. The prayers and practices were so familiar. They were taught to me by sincere people. I prayed the rosary, including rosary novenas. I wore a Brown Scapular and a Miraculous Medal. (You can read about these things in the Glossary, which is Appendix C.) I visited shrines that honor Mary. I had beautiful statues of Mary. I attended special services where we prayed to Mary and recited a litany of titles honoring her. I read books about apparitions of Mary, and dreamed of visiting Lourdes and Fatima. I participated in processions honoring Mary. A statue of Mary was put on a platform that was decorated with flowers. There were poles on the platform, so that men could carry it. The men walked through the streets, carrying the statue on the platform. We walked behind the statue, singing songs in Mary's honor.



When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over: "Mary, my mother!" Polish pilgrims placed a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the Pope normally sat. People gathered around the picture. Vatican loudspeakers broadcasted the prayers of the rosary. When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank her. (Note 4)



One popular prayer in Mary's honor is the "Hail Holy Queen," which is known in Latin as the "Salve Regina". It is traditionally included as part of praying the rosary.



"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary."



Alfonsus de Liguori (1696-1787) was a principal proponent of the Marianist Movement, which glorifies Mary. He wrote a book entitled "The Glories of Mary" which is famous, influential and widely read. In this book, de Liguori says that Mary was given rulership over one half of the kingdom of God; Mary rules over the kingdom of mercy and Jesus rules over the kingdom of justice. De Liguori said that people should pray to Mary as a mediator and look to her as an object of trust for answered prayer. The book even says that there is no salvation outside of Mary. Some people suggest that these views are extreme and not representative of Catholic Church teaching. However, instead of silencing de Liguori as a heretic, the Catholic Church canonized him as a saint and declared him to be a "doctor of the Church" (a person whose teachings carry weight and authority). Furthermore, his book is openly and officially promoted by the Catholic Church, and his teachings have influenced popes. (Note 9)



Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that "[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind." (Note 10) Pope Pius IX said: "Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her." (Note 11)



Also from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm



Mary's Divine motherhood



Mary's Divine motherhood is based on the teaching of the Gospels, on the writings of the Fathers, and on the express definition of the Church. St. Matthew (1:25) testifies that Mary "brought forth her first-born son" and that He was called Jesus. According to St. John (1:15) Jesus is the Word made flesh, the Word Who assumed human nature in the womb of Mary. As Mary was truly the mother of Jesus, and as Jesus was truly God from the first moment of His conception, Mary is truly the mother of God. Even the earliest Fathers did not hesitate to draw this conclusion as may be seen in the writings of St. Ignatius [72], St. Irenaeus [73], and Tertullian [74]. The contention of Nestorius denying to Mary the title "Mother of God" [75] was followed by the teaching of the Council of Ephesus proclaiming Mary to be Theotokos in the true sense of the word. [76]



Early writings



For the attitude of the Churches of Asia Minor and of Lyons we may appeal to the words of St. Irenaeus, a pupil of St. John's disciple Polycarp [145]; he calls Mary our most eminent advocate. St. Ignatius of Antioch, part of whose life reached back into apostolic times, wrote to the Ephesians (c. 18-19) in such a way as to connect the mysteries of Our Lord's life more closely with those of the Virgin Mary. For instance, the virginity of Mary, and her childbirth, are enumerated with Christ's death, as forming three mysteries unknown to the devil. The sub-apostolic author of the Epistle to Diognetus, writing to a pagan inquirer concerning the Christian mysteries, describes Mary as the great antithesis of Eve, and this idea of Our Lady occurs repeatedly in other writers even before the Council of Ephesus. We have repeatedly appealed to the words of St. Justin and Tertullian, both of whom wrote before the end of the second century.



As it is admitted that the praises of Mary grow with the growth of the Christian community, we may conclude in brief that the veneration of and devotion to Mary began even in the time of the Apostles.



So it is quite clear that many Christians did treat Mary as a divine godly being, hence the Quran condemned this practice, as well as condemning the Trinity, the Quran condemns both.



Addressing an Objection

Now some may say that if one reads the context of Surah 5:73, when the Quran attacks the Trinity, one will see that the context shows that the author of the Quran believed that Mary was part of the Trinity, we quote the context:

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! (5:73-75)

So some Christians may assert from verse 76, where Mary is mentioned, that the Quran does believe that Mary was part of the Trinity. They will assert that since the Quran makes the point that both Mary and Jesus ate food, the Quran here is trying to disprove divinity from both Jesus and Mary, and with the Trinity being mentioned in verse 73, this must mean the author thought that Mary was in the Trinity.

As we saw above there are Christians who believe in Mary's ?Divine Motherhood' that she was the mother of God. Hence the Quran here is trying to show the fallacy in such a belief, how can there be a Trinity, and Mary having a divine motherhood due to giving birth to a supposedly divine Jesus, when Mary was a normal lady like every other lady, eating food and so on. In case Christians don't get it, Jesus' divinity and the Trinity itself is what makes Mary so special and given a divine status, yet the Quran is arguing how such a thing possible in the first place, Mary was like other humans, she ate food and so on, so a lady like herself with never give birth to God in the first place, the very same God whom Christians claim to be a part of the Trinity.

The verse is also going on to show the complete humanity of Jesus which refutes the Trinity, by emphasizing the humanity of Mary, the Quran is trying to emphasize the humanity of Jesus as well, his mother was a normal human being like everyone else, hence why would she give birth to the almighty God and part of what is called the Trinity? It doesn't add up at all, and this is precisely what The Quran is getting at, Mary was a normal lady, hence she doesn't give birth to God or anything to do with divinity!

So the verse is not including Mary in the Trinity, rather it is attacking the very core and basis of the Trinity by pointing out that it is a complete fallacy for a normal lady who eats, to give birth to God himself, the very same God who supposedly makes up a Trinity.

So in conclusion Mary is never mentioned in the Trinity, when the Quran mentions the worship of Jesus and Mary, that same verse says nothing about a Trinity. The Quran does mention the Trinity in two other places, and Mary is never included within the Trinity itself, hence the Quran is not wrong, it is the Christian who is wrong, and it is the Christian who has mis-understood the Quran.

And Allah Knows Best!

www.muslim-responses.com

fellis: [

Thank you brother, for making time out to educate the bigot who i am sure, smiles gleefuly when terrible things like this happen so that they can push forth such rubbish.

Dana: Two Families Fight Over Corpse At LASUTH Mortuary

N15m is talking

wen igbos go vex strt to return d favour dat tym dem go find peace

[color=#006600][/color]whatever it takes quoran is a problem and through out whole world. Zito. Have you not see this that there is no peace in this imole sect

abubello: Samkoro please find below a comprehensive rebuttal of your ignorannt allegations against the Glorious Quran

Did the Quran get the Trinity wrong?

By Sami Zaatari



One common claim that is made against the Quran by the Christians is that the Quran doesn't understand the Trinity, that the Quran's understanding of the Trinity is wrong, and ignorant.

The Christians make the claim that Islam believed that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a member of the Trinity. For instance they quote the following verse:

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [Qur'an 5:116]



So from this verse the Christian asserts that the Quran did not know what the Trinity was, as Mary is not in the Trinity, hence the Quran was wrong. For starters the Christians themselves have committed the mistake, not the Quran, if anyone reads Surah 5:116 (the above quoted verse) they will see that the verse says NOTHING about a Trinity. So we need to ask our Christian friends from where do they assert that this verse is mentioning the Trinity? The Christian has simply read what is not there.

In fact in the very same Surah, in passage 73, the Quran does mention the Trinity:

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. (5:73)

In this passage the Quran does mention the Trinity, yet it says nothing about Mary being included in the Trinity of the Christians. The Quran also mentions the Trinity in another Surah:

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. (4:171)

Here again the Quran attacks the Trinity, yet again there is nothing about Mary. So already we can see a problem with the Christian argument, the Quran when it attacks the Trinity it mentions the Trinity quite clearly, and when it does so it says nothing about Mary being involved within the Trinity. Now when the Quran mentions Jesus and Mary being worshiped as gods it never mentions the Trinity at all!

So the burden of proof is now on the Christian, show us where the Quran says anything about Mary being in the Trinity, I have quoted two passages from the Quran which attack the Trinity, and neither of these two passages say that Mary is in the Trinity.

So the Quran attacks both the Trinity, as well as Christians who have wrongly raised Mary to such a high degree that she has become like a god. Here is the proof that some Christians have turned Mary into a godly figure:

http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html



As a faithful Catholic, and later as a nun, I was devoted to Mary. The prayers and practices were so familiar. They were taught to me by sincere people. I prayed the rosary, including rosary novenas. I wore a Brown Scapular and a Miraculous Medal. (You can read about these things in the Glossary, which is Appendix C.) I visited shrines that honor Mary. I had beautiful statues of Mary. I attended special services where we prayed to Mary and recited a litany of titles honoring her. I read books about apparitions of Mary, and dreamed of visiting Lourdes and Fatima. I participated in processions honoring Mary. A statue of Mary was put on a platform that was decorated with flowers. There were poles on the platform, so that men could carry it. The men walked through the streets, carrying the statue on the platform. We walked behind the statue, singing songs in Mary's honor.



When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over: "Mary, my mother!" Polish pilgrims placed a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the Pope normally sat. People gathered around the picture. Vatican loudspeakers broadcasted the prayers of the rosary. When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank her. (Note 4)



One popular prayer in Mary's honor is the "Hail Holy Queen," which is known in Latin as the "Salve Regina". It is traditionally included as part of praying the rosary.



"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary."



Alfonsus de Liguori (1696-1787) was a principal proponent of the Marianist Movement, which glorifies Mary. He wrote a book entitled "The Glories of Mary" which is famous, influential and widely read. In this book, de Liguori says that Mary was given rulership over one half of the kingdom of God; Mary rules over the kingdom of mercy and Jesus rules over the kingdom of justice. De Liguori said that people should pray to Mary as a mediator and look to her as an object of trust for answered prayer. The book even says that there is no salvation outside of Mary. Some people suggest that these views are extreme and not representative of Catholic Church teaching. However, instead of silencing de Liguori as a heretic, the Catholic Church canonized him as a saint and declared him to be a "doctor of the Church" (a person whose teachings carry weight and authority). Furthermore, his book is openly and officially promoted by the Catholic Church, and his teachings have influenced popes. (Note 9)



Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that "[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind." (Note 10) Pope Pius IX said: "Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her." (Note 11)



Also from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm



Mary's Divine motherhood



Mary's Divine motherhood is based on the teaching of the Gospels, on the writings of the Fathers, and on the express definition of the Church. St. Matthew (1:25) testifies that Mary "brought forth her first-born son" and that He was called Jesus. According to St. John (1:15) Jesus is the Word made flesh, the Word Who assumed human nature in the womb of Mary. As Mary was truly the mother of Jesus, and as Jesus was truly God from the first moment of His conception, Mary is truly the mother of God. Even the earliest Fathers did not hesitate to draw this conclusion as may be seen in the writings of St. Ignatius [72], St. Irenaeus [73], and Tertullian [74]. The contention of Nestorius denying to Mary the title "Mother of God" [75] was followed by the teaching of the Council of Ephesus proclaiming Mary to be Theotokos in the true sense of the word. [76]



Early writings



For the attitude of the Churches of Asia Minor and of Lyons we may appeal to the words of St. Irenaeus, a pupil of St. John's disciple Polycarp [145]; he calls Mary our most eminent advocate. St. Ignatius of Antioch, part of whose life reached back into apostolic times, wrote to the Ephesians (c. 18-19) in such a way as to connect the mysteries of Our Lord's life more closely with those of the Virgin Mary. For instance, the virginity of Mary, and her childbirth, are enumerated with Christ's death, as forming three mysteries unknown to the devil. The sub-apostolic author of the Epistle to Diognetus, writing to a pagan inquirer concerning the Christian mysteries, describes Mary as the great antithesis of Eve, and this idea of Our Lady occurs repeatedly in other writers even before the Council of Ephesus. We have repeatedly appealed to the words of St. Justin and Tertullian, both of whom wrote before the end of the second century.



As it is admitted that the praises of Mary grow with the growth of the Christian community, we may conclude in brief that the veneration of and devotion to Mary began even in the time of the Apostles.



So it is quite clear that many Christians did treat Mary as a divine godly being, hence the Quran condemned this practice, as well as condemning the Trinity, the Quran condemns both.



Addressing an Objection

Now some may say that if one reads the context of Surah 5:73, when the Quran attacks the Trinity, one will see that the context shows that the author of the Quran believed that Mary was part of the Trinity, we quote the context:

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! (5:73-75)

So some Christians may assert from verse 76, where Mary is mentioned, that the Quran does believe that Mary was part of the Trinity. They will assert that since the Quran makes the point that both Mary and Jesus ate food, the Quran here is trying to disprove divinity from both Jesus and Mary, and with the Trinity being mentioned in verse 73, this must mean the author thought that Mary was in the Trinity.

As we saw above there are Christians who believe in Mary's ?Divine Motherhood' that she was the mother of God. Hence the Quran here is trying to show the fallacy in such a belief, how can there be a Trinity, and Mary having a divine motherhood due to giving birth to a supposedly divine Jesus, when Mary was a normal lady like every other lady, eating food and so on. In case Christians don't get it, Jesus' divinity and the Trinity itself is what makes Mary so special and given a divine status, yet the Quran is arguing how such a thing possible in the first place, Mary was like other humans, she ate food and so on, so a lady like herself with never give birth to God in the first place, the very same God whom Christians claim to be a part of the Trinity.

The verse is also going on to show the complete humanity of Jesus which refutes the Trinity, by emphasizing the humanity of Mary, the Quran is trying to emphasize the humanity of Jesus as well, his mother was a normal human being like everyone else, hence why would she give birth to the almighty God and part of what is called the Trinity? It doesn't add up at all, and this is precisely what The Quran is getting at, Mary was a normal lady, hence she doesn't give birth to God or anything to do with divinity!

So the verse is not including Mary in the Trinity, rather it is attacking the very core and basis of the Trinity by pointing out that it is a complete fallacy for a normal lady who eats, to give birth to God himself, the very same God who supposedly makes up a Trinity.

So in conclusion Mary is never mentioned in the Trinity, when the Quran mentions the worship of Jesus and Mary, that same verse says nothing about a Trinity. The Quran does mention the Trinity in two other places, and Mary is never included within the Trinity itself, hence the Quran is not wrong, it is the Christian who is wrong, and it is the Christian who has mis-understood the Quran.

And Allah Knows Best!

www.muslim-responses.com

Thank you for the effort and the good write up you have. But I must say to you that your deduction was a little bias when you we're explaining how some christians worship Mary like a god and gave some books or litrature written by one man according what he percieved Mary to be. But, I repeat bt you failed to point out one verse or two verses from the bible that says the christian should worship Mary or pray to her like an intercessor. So my learned colleague, if I should follow your pattern of logical deduction; will it be appropriate for me to say that Islam is a violent religion because of your fellow muslims brothers who believe that they can kill innocent people to have revenge for Allah? I know as muslim scholar which I take you to be that you can as well point to us all that the Q'ran did nt tell any one to kill and therefore Islam is a religion of Peace? So don't take one aspect of a religion to draw your conclusion. Thank You

ebamma: instead of saying bokoharam the are saying gunmen,

until BH claims responsibility 4 any attack,it is proper to say gunmen attack

abubello: Samkoro please find below a comprehensive rebuttal of your ignorannt allegations against the Glorious Quran

Did the Quran get the Trinity wrong?

By Sami Zaatari



One common claim that is made against the Quran by the Christians is that the Quran doesn't understand the Trinity, that the Quran's understanding of the Trinity is wrong, and ignorant.

The Christians make the claim that Islam believed that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a member of the Trinity. For instance they quote the following verse:

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [Qur'an 5:116]



So from this verse the Christian asserts that the Quran did not know what the Trinity was, as Mary is not in the Trinity, hence the Quran was wrong. For starters the Christians themselves have committed the mistake, not the Quran, if anyone reads Surah 5:116 (the above quoted verse) they will see that the verse says NOTHING about a Trinity. So we need to ask our Christian friends from where do they assert that this verse is mentioning the Trinity? The Christian has simply read what is not there.

In fact in the very same Surah, in passage 73, the Quran does mention the Trinity:

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. (5:73)

In this passage the Quran does mention the Trinity, yet it says nothing about Mary being included in the Trinity of the Christians. The Quran also mentions the Trinity in another Surah:

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. (4:171)

Here again the Quran attacks the Trinity, yet again there is nothing about Mary. So already we can see a problem with the Christian argument, the Quran when it attacks the Trinity it mentions the Trinity quite clearly, and when it does so it says nothing about Mary being involved within the Trinity. Now when the Quran mentions Jesus and Mary being worshiped as gods it never mentions the Trinity at all!

So the burden of proof is now on the Christian, show us where the Quran says anything about Mary being in the Trinity, I have quoted two passages from the Quran which attack the Trinity, and neither of these two passages say that Mary is in the Trinity.

So the Quran attacks both the Trinity, as well as Christians who have wrongly raised Mary to such a high degree that she has become like a god. Here is the proof that some Christians have turned Mary into a godly figure:

http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html



As a faithful Catholic, and later as a nun, I was devoted to Mary. The prayers and practices were so familiar. They were taught to me by sincere people. I prayed the rosary, including rosary novenas. I wore a Brown Scapular and a Miraculous Medal. (You can read about these things in the Glossary, which is Appendix C.) I visited shrines that honor Mary. I had beautiful statues of Mary. I attended special services where we prayed to Mary and recited a litany of titles honoring her. I read books about apparitions of Mary, and dreamed of visiting Lourdes and Fatima. I participated in processions honoring Mary. A statue of Mary was put on a platform that was decorated with flowers. There were poles on the platform, so that men could carry it. The men walked through the streets, carrying the statue on the platform. We walked behind the statue, singing songs in Mary's honor.



When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over: "Mary, my mother!" Polish pilgrims placed a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the Pope normally sat. People gathered around the picture. Vatican loudspeakers broadcasted the prayers of the rosary. When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank her. (Note 4)



One popular prayer in Mary's honor is the "Hail Holy Queen," which is known in Latin as the "Salve Regina". It is traditionally included as part of praying the rosary.



"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary."



Alfonsus de Liguori (1696-1787) was a principal proponent of the Marianist Movement, which glorifies Mary. He wrote a book entitled "The Glories of Mary" which is famous, influential and widely read. In this book, de Liguori says that Mary was given rulership over one half of the kingdom of God; Mary rules over the kingdom of mercy and Jesus rules over the kingdom of justice. De Liguori said that people should pray to Mary as a mediator and look to her as an object of trust for answered prayer. The book even says that there is no salvation outside of Mary. Some people suggest that these views are extreme and not representative of Catholic Church teaching. However, instead of silencing de Liguori as a heretic, the Catholic Church canonized him as a saint and declared him to be a "doctor of the Church" (a person whose teachings carry weight and authority). Furthermore, his book is openly and officially promoted by the Catholic Church, and his teachings have influenced popes. (Note 9)



Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that "[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind." (Note 10) Pope Pius IX said: "Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her." (Note 11)



Also from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm



Mary's Divine motherhood



Mary's Divine motherhood is based on the teaching of the Gospels, on the writings of the Fathers, and on the express definition of the Church. St. Matthew (1:25) testifies that Mary "brought forth her first-born son" and that He was called Jesus. According to St. John (1:15) Jesus is the Word made flesh, the Word Who assumed human nature in the womb of Mary. As Mary was truly the mother of Jesus, and as Jesus was truly God from the first moment of His conception, Mary is truly the mother of God. Even the earliest Fathers did not hesitate to draw this conclusion as may be seen in the writings of St. Ignatius [72], St. Irenaeus [73], and Tertullian [74]. The contention of Nestorius denying to Mary the title "Mother of God" [75] was followed by the teaching of the Council of Ephesus proclaiming Mary to be Theotokos in the true sense of the word. [76]



Early writings



For the attitude of the Churches of Asia Minor and of Lyons we may appeal to the words of St. Irenaeus, a pupil of St. John's disciple Polycarp [145]; he calls Mary our most eminent advocate. St. Ignatius of Antioch, part of whose life reached back into apostolic times, wrote to the Ephesians (c. 18-19) in such a way as to connect the mysteries of Our Lord's life more closely with those of the Virgin Mary. For instance, the virginity of Mary, and her childbirth, are enumerated with Christ's death, as forming three mysteries unknown to the devil. The sub-apostolic author of the Epistle to Diognetus, writing to a pagan inquirer concerning the Christian mysteries, describes Mary as the great antithesis of Eve, and this idea of Our Lady occurs repeatedly in other writers even before the Council of Ephesus. We have repeatedly appealed to the words of St. Justin and Tertullian, both of whom wrote before the end of the second century.



As it is admitted that the praises of Mary grow with the growth of the Christian community, we may conclude in brief that the veneration of and devotion to Mary began even in the time of the Apostles.



So it is quite clear that many Christians did treat Mary as a divine godly being, hence the Quran condemned this practice, as well as condemning the Trinity, the Quran condemns both.



Addressing an Objection

Now some may say that if one reads the context of Surah 5:73, when the Quran attacks the Trinity, one will see that the context shows that the author of the Quran believed that Mary was part of the Trinity, we quote the context:

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! (5:73-75)

So some Christians may assert from verse 76, where Mary is mentioned, that the Quran does believe that Mary was part of the Trinity. They will assert that since the Quran makes the point that both Mary and Jesus ate food, the Quran here is trying to disprove divinity from both Jesus and Mary, and with the Trinity being mentioned in verse 73, this must mean the author thought that Mary was in the Trinity.

As we saw above there are Christians who believe in Mary's ?Divine Motherhood' that she was the mother of God. Hence the Quran here is trying to show the fallacy in such a belief, how can there be a Trinity, and Mary having a divine motherhood due to giving birth to a supposedly divine Jesus, when Mary was a normal lady like every other lady, eating food and so on. In case Christians don't get it, Jesus' divinity and the Trinity itself is what makes Mary so special and given a divine status, yet the Quran is arguing how such a thing possible in the first place, Mary was like other humans, she ate food and so on, so a lady like herself with never give birth to God in the first place, the very same God whom Christians claim to be a part of the Trinity.

The verse is also going on to show the complete humanity of Jesus which refutes the Trinity, by emphasizing the humanity of Mary, the Quran is trying to emphasize the humanity of Jesus as well, his mother was a normal human being like everyone else, hence why would she give birth to the almighty God and part of what is called the Trinity? It doesn't add up at all, and this is precisely what The Quran is getting at, Mary was a normal lady, hence she doesn't give birth to God or anything to do with divinity!

So the verse is not including Mary in the Trinity, rather it is attacking the very core and basis of the Trinity by pointing out that it is a complete fallacy for a normal lady who eats, to give birth to God himself, the very same God who supposedly makes up a Trinity.

So in conclusion Mary is never mentioned in the Trinity, when the Quran mentions the worship of Jesus and Mary, that same verse says nothing about a Trinity. The Quran does mention the Trinity in two other places, and Mary is never included within the Trinity itself, hence the Quran is not wrong, it is the Christian who is wrong, and it is the Christian who has mis-understood the Quran.

And Allah Knows Best!

www.muslim-responses.com

Thank you for the effort and the good write up you have. But I must say to you that your deduction was a little bias when you we're explaining how some christians worship Mary like a god and gave some books or litrature written by one man according what he percieved Mary to be. But, I repeat bt you failed to point out one verse or two verses from the bible that says the christian should worship Mary or pray to her like an intercessor because you took your time to condemn the Trinity by quoting verses in the Q'ran. So my learned colleague, if I should follow your pattern of logical deduction; will it be appropriate for me to say that Islam is a violent religion because of your fellow muslims brothers who believe that they can kill innocent people to have revenge for Allah? I know as muslim scholar which I take you to be that you can as well point to us all that the Q'ran did nt tell any one to kill and therefore Islam is a religion of Peace? So don't take one aspect of a religion to draw your conclusion. Thank You

msb247:

that's not good enough reason not to vote a northerner. is it during a northerner's tenure that all these killings were done? be sensible for once please. in fact, its anyone who votes this govt again that would be cursed by the blood of the innocent!

the killings by BH has d endorsement of d north,so wat is d sense in votin 4 a northerner

you dis illiterate what did you knw about islam,Quran and even the prophet that you ll come here and start making false explanation? Let me tell u your grandparent not even you can destroy islam.

munigas: you dis illiterate what did you knw about islam,Quran and even the prophet that you ll come here and start making false explanation? Let me tell u your grandparent not even you can destroy islam.

I vote for Abubelo to be the NEXT Nairaland moderator!

I like the way you present yourself and your argument