I have found Christians busy themselves with what amounts to mindless attacks on Islam concerning issues that they have no historical context. Even assuming that some of their arguments are valid as an attacks on the validity of Quran, the same attacks can be labelled on them. The only thing, it seems, that Christians can always fall back on is the fact the Jesus, the son of Mary, never fought in a war and was "peaceful." However, they never seem to mention that in the book of revelations, I believe, Jesus will return and fight in a war and kill many Jews. What do you think the dominionist evangelical Christians of the USA believe. But, be that as it may, this issue is also not improtant considering the issue of religious validity. The key question is one of theological belief about God.

We have all heard the arguments for and against the trinity but what is missing in that argument is the real theological question it evokes. Who is God and what is His nature. In this issue, Christians fail miserably. Muslims have the habit it quoting the Bible when arguing about the non-existence of the trinity but when a Christians respond with another verse from the Bible to support their claim, the Muslim is stumped. why? Cause he loses sight of the key logical theological question.

Christians and Muslims believe that God is the Alpha and Omega, the one who has no beginning nor end. He is transcendant and above all of His creation and cannot be compared with his creation which is why He is UNIQUE. One of the most important verses in the Quran is that "there is nothing like Him." If there was something like Him, then He will not be Unique nor the Alpha or Omega.

So basically, this is the argument of why Christian theology concerning the trinity and Jesus being god makes no logical or theological sense. There are two things that exist -God and everything else. The difference between the two is that God is eternal with no beginning or end, as explained above. Jesus has a beginning and end. In fact, according to the Bible, Jesus has several beginnings and ends. He was born, then died, then resurrected, then he will return and again and fight, and I assume die again. That hardly sounds like the transcendant God that's worthy of worshipping.

Anyone that says Jesus is God is a liar. Not because the Quran says so - which is does - but because Jesus would never say something like that. Abraham, Adam, Noah, Moses, David, etc, etc all said, you have one God. Then Jesus comes along and completely puts the world on its head? Makes no sense because its simply a lie. Then Mohammed comes along and says the same thing Noah and Abraham etc says. Just on sheers numbers alone, the lies of those that claims Jesus is God is overpowered.

It simply makes no sense - logically or theologically.

- BY CHANCE

Lakpenne:

We have all heard the arguments for and against the trinity but what is missing in that argument is the real theological question it evokes. Who is God and what is His nature. In this issue, Christians fail miserably. Muslims have the habit it quoting the Bible when arguing about the non-existence of the trinity but when a Christians respond with another verse from the Bible to support their claim, the Muslim is stumped. why? Cause he loses sight of the key logical theological question.

Not really. Its simply because more often than not the muslim who claims to be "arguing" is merely copying and pasting from several islamic sites. They do not understand what they claim to be arguing about, they have not studied the bible and worse of all they havent even studied the quran they bandy about.
The muslim is easily stumped because
1. He snatches one verse and attempts to twist it out of context to force fit it into the quran
2. He stupidly is unaware that each verse in the bible (especially important prophecies) all have back ups in different parts of the bible that perfectly complement each other. When christians point out these facts, the muslim is stumped because unfortunately his imam has not given him an answer to that.

Lakpenne:

Christians and Muslims believe that God is the Alpha and Omega, the one who has no beginning nor end. He is transcendant and above all of His creation and cannot be compared with his creation which is why He is UNIQUE.

There is however a huge gulf of difference that you are desperate to overlook in the bid to force fit the idol of islam into the God of the bible. The God of the bible, though above all His creations, still regards us NOT as mere creations BUT as His children and joint heirs with Him in eternal life. Those are key points that are starkly absent in islam.

Lakpenne:

So basically, this is the argument of why Christian theology concerning the trinity and Jesus being god makes no logical or theological sense.

Okay, so the christian theology about the trinity makes no sense simply because, in terms of human thinking, it makes God less than supreme? That is islamic nonsense . . .

Lakpenne:

Anyone that says Jesus is God is a liar. Not because the Quran says so - which is does - but because Jesus would never say something like that.

Take out time to read the bible . . . most specifically the book of John were Jesus Christ addressed that very question before you come here spewing blasphemy. How do you know "Jesus would never say something like that"? Where you his personal secretary? Besides the few sketchy references to Jesus in the quran, what really does the average muslim know about Him?
We here nonsense like Jesus was a prophet of allah . . . where then are His prophecies in that quran?

Lakpenne:

Abraham, Adam, Noah, Moses, David, etc, etc all said, you have one God.

huh, what is new here? Christians also say we have one God so what are you driving at? Where did i tell you that christians have more than one God?

Lakpenne:

Then Jesus comes along and completely puts the world on its head? Makes no sense because its simply a lie. Then Muhammad comes along and says the same thing Noah and Abraham etc says. Just on sheers numbers alone, the lies of those that claims Jesus is God is overpowered.

It simply makes no sense - logically or theologically.

Muhammad came along and said so much that made no sense . . . his words are of no consequence, the bible is enough for me to decide if i have 1 or 10 Gods. I know what the answer already is. You can continue burying your head in the sands of deciet.

Just a few things of interest:

1. Christians have never avoided any issue, i dont remember any question muslims have raised that has gone unanswered. Except of course the continous recycling of questions as a way to avoiding islamic errors.

2. You keep banging on "it makes no theological or logical sense" . . . sure from an islamic point of view it dare not make sense. The minute it does the facade of mohammed and his fraudulent islam come tumbling down like a pack of cards.

"sure from an islamic point of view it dare not make sense" Ok, Davidylan, please make logical sense of how God can be transcendant and also non-transcendant. he can be eternal yet limited, having a beginning and end. Please explain, I would love to hear this babble.

Notice when you responded initially, rather than answer my questions, you avoided providing any logical explanation. Like I said, its the issue Christians avoid because even the Bible does not support, nor does simple logic.

From a atheistic scientific view, the world must have been created by something that it, itself has no beginning (atheists agree to this but disagree that this "it" is God). Thus, the mover, must have been eternal and unlike anything else that exists after it. Jesus is not eternal and therefore cannot be God. Please don't give me the word became spirit and flesh nonesense. If that's the case, what is so unique about God. Why can't Haile Selasie be God as Rastas claim. They said he had God in him. If Jesus can be God, so can Haille. But you dismiss Haille but accept Jesus. Why? Makes no sense. Let me guess, miracles right? Prove those miracles ever happpened

See, the arguments I am proposing does not need the existence of the Quran or Bible or Torah to be supported. IT is supported by logic and common sense, as Allah said.

Lakpenne:

"sure from an islamic point of view it dare not make sense" Ok, Davidylan, please make logical sense of how God can be transcendant and also non-transcendant. he can be eternal yet limited, having a beginning and end. Please explain, I would love to hear this babble.

1. the explanations are strewn all over this board if you bothered to read through them without the lenses of quranic deciet.
2. Perhaps you can explain how a child can be born by a virgin and yet remain "non-transcedent". Islam is predicated solely on denying the Lordship of Jesus Christ . . . is anyone surprised you are asking such ridiculous questions?

Lakpenne:

Notice when you responded initially, rather than answer my questions, you avoided providing any logical explanation. Like I said, its the issue Christians avoid because even the Bible does not support, nor does simple logic.

1. No logic can explain the bible . . . come to think of it. Are you not shooting urself in the foot? If your "god" can be explained by "simple logic" how then can you still claim that he transcends all his creations? Doesnt that sound implausible?

2. If you have ever read the bible rather than crying loudly about logic, you should know that the bible clearly supports the fact that Jesus Christ IS God.

Lakpenne:

Makes no sense. Let me guess, miracles right? Prove those miracles ever happpened

lol i'm not shocked at this, since mohammed could not do any miracles the default islamic response is to cry "prove the miracles of Jesus ever happened"! What a bunch of hypocrites . . . why dont you first prove to us that mohammed split the moon or travelled to heaven as he falsely claims in the hadith?

Lakpenne:

See, the arguments I am proposing does not need the existence of the Quran or Bible or Torah to be supported. IT is supported by logic and common sense, as Allah said.

This allah is a puzzle to himself . . . he first claims to be greater than his creations and now says that he can be understood by common sense and logic. if that's the case i can also claim to be a god too. Afterall i can be understood by logic aint it?
Muslims never fail to lay bare their confusion when they start bellyaching over the bible.

"Perhaps you can explain how a child can be born by a virgin and yet remain "non-transcedent"."

Umm, perhaps you can explain how Adam had no mother or father yet he is not transcendant. See how stupid that argument was?

"i'm not shocked at this, since mohammed could not do any miracles the default islamic response is to cry "prove the miracles of Jesus ever happened"! "

Umm, you missed the point again. If you claim we cannot prove any of the Prophet's miracles other than the fact that they are mentioned in hadith, then sure as hell you can't prove any of the other Propeht's miracles as they only apprear in the Bible. Point being, the arguments gets you nowhere. At least we have an unchaged book hadith making a historical account of events.


"This allah is a puzzle to himself . " Thought u might go there. See, there are definitely things about Allah that cannot be understood, like the extent of his majesty. And then there are some simple things that we can understand. Again, you fail to address the point.

The fact that Allah says he cannot be understood yet there are some logic ways of understanding Him is not unique to the Quran. ITs in the Bible and Torah and indeed is a logical progression. So, since you avoid to address it, let me make the connection for you. you believe in God yet you cannot see Him. He cannot be seen by man and this is one of those many things that cannot be comprehended on this earth about God. He is all knowledgeable and we know this yet we cannot understand the extent of his knowledge. IT makes logical sense that he is all seeing and all knowledgeable - do you disagree with this.

We believe that he is the beginning and end but we cannot really comprehend the extent of what that means. Because he is the transcendant unmoved mover, He is indeed like nothing else. This makes perfect human logical sense. The extent of these attributes, we will never comprehend on this earth. This earth is limited and we will never comprehend it fully cause He is like nothing else. Jesus on the other hand, is just like us, He eats, sleeps, defacates, will marry when he returns, dies, etc. Nothing special

See, that's how you make an argument, unlike the usual opinions you spew.

Lakpenne:

"Perhaps you can explain how a child can be born by a virgin and yet remain "non-transcedent"."

Umm, perhaps you can explain how Adam had no mother or father yet he is not transcendant. See how stupid that argument was?

lol your low level of comprehension is really appalling. Adam was created by God . . . it is clearly indicated in the book of Genesis. Now in your haste to make my argument look "stupid" you forget a critical point. BEFORE Adam ate the forbidden fruit in the garden of Eden he was "transcedant" and created to live forever. However when sin came through him, man fell and death entered into the world.
If you bother to read through the book of romans . . . that is very well explained by the apostle Paul.

Lakpenne:

"i'm not shocked at this, since mohammed could not do any miracles the default islamic response is to cry "prove the miracles of Jesus ever happened"! "

Umm, you missed the point again. If you claim we cannot prove any of the Prophet's miracles other than the fact that they are mentioned in hadith, then sure as hell you can't prove any of the other Propeht's miracles as they only apprear in the Bible. Point being, the arguments gets you nowhere. At least we have an unchaged book hadith making a historical account of events.

The part in highlights is partly your oppinion and largely false. The hadith claims to contain a "historical account of events" but we know from history that this is untrue.
1. Muhammad claims to have ascended into heaven from the temple in Jerusalem, but we know from history that the temple was destroyed well before mohamed was born. . .  what temple then was he talking about?

2. Muhammad claims the Ka'aba was built 40 years before the Al' Aqsar mosque in Jerusalem, on the site of Solomon's temple.

However, there is no evidence that there was a mosque in Jerusalem as at the first building of Solomon's temple as it is not recorded that Solomon had to demolish any spiritual symbol on the mount of Moriah.
The same mount Moriah was where God told Abraham to go sacrifice Isaac. Clearly no mention is made of any mosque being on that site!
So we can safely deduce that the Al aqsar mosque DID NOT exist before Solomon's temple. King Herod's temple (a rebuilding of Solomon's temple earlier destroyed by the babylonian empire) was destroyed by the Romans never to be rebuilt in AD 70. Therefore the earliest the al-aqsar mosque could have been built was AD 70.

If indeed the ka'aba was built 40 years before the al-aqsar mosque, then it could not have been built any earlier than AD 30. It is impossible that Adam, Abraham or Noah could have built the Ka'aba for history acknowledges they lived more than 2000 years before AD 70!

Back to the question of miracles - mohammed himself claimed he was but a man and could not produce a miracle even when his contemporaries demanded one as proof of his prophethood . . . hey presto muslims now start telling us about moon splitting! who is decieving who?

Lakpenne:

Jesus on the other hand, is just like us, He eats, sleeps, defacates, will marry when he returns, dies, etc. Nothing special

See, that's how you make an argument, unlike the usual opinions you spew.

Okay see how YOU make an argument. Look at the part in highlights.
First you say - Jesus is like us . . . meaning anything Jesus did, you and i can do right? So he eats like us, can feel pain, "will marry" (wherever you got that from).

BUT you believe he was born of a virgin - - can you be born of a virgin?
You believe He will return? How? Do humans die and then return? From where?
When did muslims start believing in the return of Jesus Christ? Cant mohamed return?
Who told you Jesus Christ is marrying when He returns? In your confused rendition of the quran?

This is the core issue. This is where all the religions, at least, Christianity deviates from the path that is straight and direct. The path which the Islam of Muhammad (as), continues on. It is a relay race. All the prophets before Muhammad are inclusive in this race. They are in partnership on this path of saying that there is Only One God, along with the Muslims under Muhammad. Muhammad's Islam agrees and indeed has the same core tenet as what in religious faith, the prophets before him brought. There is no record of any one of these previous prophets, at the end of their prophetic missions, ever saying there is more than One God. Indeed, they worshipped a Singularly God, who is the Supreme in all aspects of the word. A noticeable size of the Christian believe that Jesus was also a prophet, at least, in the same league of prophethood, like Moses. And we see Jesus worshipping the same Supreme being, the One God, from the Bible, as it is closely examined.

How is it then possible from all the previous prophets and even from him, Jesus son of Mary, and also from Muhammad, who came after him, all  them declared that there is Only God, and then all of a sudden the people who founded a religion that they named after him, will say that all these prophets, including him were not correct to attest to ONE GOD? It is the question of our lifetime.

@Davidylan: So your father is God? Then god is a Nigerian then. Which town is he from, again? Nigeria does have one over the other nations then. You and backslider, cgift, Nwando, Pilgrim.1, etc must be siblings! Will God punish his children, Hitler, MMussolini The grand wizard and indeed all the KKK members? Please be real. You know you are just talking. Old habits die hard, and extremely, too slow. Just because you say your father is God, does not mean that you are telling the truth. Infact, it is blasphemy. You will be punish for such a blasphemy. If you are my Nephew, saying something like that, I will have to ask my sibling who is your parent, if is it true what you are saying? Your statement of being son of God is completely false. Surprisingly, some of the sons and daughters of God are very poor. We see alot of them as poor, as a church mouse, in NYC. Yet the church leaders,  will not help the poorer siblings.  Instead, the poor church goers are required to pay tilt, the first crop, etc. A whole bunch of these children of God are committing some of the worst crimes, eg fornication and adultery. Yet they are not concerned about the anger of their Father.

@Lakpenne: Good engaging dialogue. May Allah increase your Iman and Ilm. @davidylan: May Allah open His door of Mercy to you through this dialogue.

I started replying to your other post but lost it and do not want to rewrite. But, this is my question, "What is so special about Jesus that he is now God."

Every Prophet is special and so is Jesus but not such that he is now God. Never. Sure Muslims believe Jesus will return, where have you been. and we believe he will kill the anti-christ.

"The God of the bible, though above all His creations, still regards us NOT as mere creations BUT as His children and joint heirs with Him in eternal life. Those are key points that are starkly absent in islam."

-- and how are we His children? More important, how does that even translate into Jesus being God. Still stands that He is transcendant and nothing like us.

Lakpenne:

I started replying to your other post but lost it and do not want to rewrite. But, this is my question, "What is so special about Jesus that he is now God."

This is not a mystery, the bible has made it abundantly clear that Jesus Christ was God in the human flesh coming down from His glory to lay down His life for our sake.
Even the 12 disciples perfectly understood this fact  . . . here is Paul's letter to timothy: 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Note: that phrase "God was manifest in the flesh" . . . that is Jesus Christ being refered to as God by those who not only heard him speak but knew Him much more than we do today.

Lakpenne:

Every Prophet is special and so is Jesus but not such that he is now God. Never. Sure Muslims believe Jesus will return, where have you been. and we believe he will kill the anti-christ.

The rejection of Christ's deity is exactly what the bible identifies as the spirit of the Anti-christ 1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

If you do believe then that Jesus Christ will come to kill the anti-christ then you are indirectly saying He is coming to kill islam eh?

again, for you to believe that an anti-christ exists, it means you must believe that there is indeed a Christ! No?
BUT do you understand what "CHRIST" really means? No you dont for islam's very bone of contention is the DENIAL of the CHRIST nature of Jesus. It is the "CHRIST" part of Jesus that identifies Him as God in the flesh.

Muslims believe just about any verbiage that mohammed spewed forth in the quran, the problem is you do not understand a single thing your quran says! Your quran denies Jesus as the Christ and then turns around to claim He is coming back to kill the anti-christ? Just WHO is this anti-christ that allah refered to? How do you identify him?

- Okay back to reality. WHERE in the quran did allah say He will send Jesus back to earth to kill the anti-christ?
Have you ever wondered why allah would be sending Jesus Christ and NOT mohammed who refered to himself as the "last and greatest" prophet?
Has is ever occured to you to wonder that if Jesus Christ was indeed just a human like you and me it would be tantamount to tacitly accepting that He is the resurrection by believing that He will one day resurrect and walk this earth again unlike mohammed?

Why is mohammed so powerless and Jesus Christ so powerful even by the standards of the quran?

Lakpenne:

-- and how are we His children? More important, how does that even translate into Jesus being God. Still stands that He is transcendant and nothing like us.

No sir, remove the "we". YOU and everyone else that denies the Lordship of Jesus Christ are NOT sons and daughters of God. This is the plan God has for us who love Him and keep His commandments: 2 Corinthians 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

On the other hand, for those who choose to reject Him and His suffering on the cross . . . John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

olabowale:

@Davidylan: So your father is God? Then god is a Nigerian then. Which town is he from, again? Nigeria does have one over the other nations then. You and backslider, cgift, Nwando, Pilgrim.1, etc must be siblings!

alhaji, just as you have a physical father i have a spiritual Father.

"If you do believe then that Jesus Christ will come to kill the anti-christ then you are indirectly saying He is coming to kill islam eh?"

Umm, no. the annointed one is the one who is the deliverer of a people. The one who has been wiped over (annointed or messiah) such that he is able to perform miracles by the will of God as a sign to the people. The anti-christ or the false messiah will come to wipe over things by making it seems as if he possessed the powers of the one who has been wiped over (messiah). Jesus never died and it was written for him to defeat the false messiah since he is the one called the messiah and he shall return to finish the job.

Why not the Prophet Muhammad? Not his job. Why not Mohammed splitting the sea to allow the Jews to cross? Not what was written for him. Nevertheless, this does not prove the divinity of Jesus. BTW, just because Jesus is returning does not make him God.

The problem with what you have said is that the only proof of Jesus' divinity is in the Bible despite the fact that the same Bible says otherwise. Now, I agee that there are instances where God does tings that defy what we are accustomed to by with the issue of Jesus' claimed divinity, God even defies himself.

Take the ten commandments. The first like three or four all pretty much send the message that God is one and u should not set up partnership with them. Yet, Jesus is exaclty that. Then the Prophets before Jesus admonished their people against setting up partnership with God, then Mohamed says the same thing and as I have expounded before, the transcendant nature of God requires that he is also not ephemeral. Now, in the Bible, God supposedly comes and blows out of the water everything he send prior messengers to preach against. Makes no sense. Logic, the Quran, the other Prophets, the Bible itself in some sections say the total opposite. I would side with what God, his Prophets and logic says together than with what the apostle Paul or someone that wrote those sections of the Bible claim.

In particular, look at the third commandment: "You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"

This is a clear commandment against idol worship of anything other than God, whether in heavens or earth or in the sea. What is Jesus except an ephemeral being on earth.

U said about Paul's lettter: "Note: that phrase "God was manifest in the flesh" . . . that is Jesus Christ being refered to as God by those who not only heard him speak but knew Him much more than we do today."

-- this is Paul speaking. Even if it was Jesus, how do we know if this part of the Bible is the true part or the changed part, Does not matter b/c it can be evaluated independently based on what it says. The ten commandments and everyone says, one God, no idol worship. this passage says worship some man on earth because God came as flesh. pure nonesense. A thing cannot e both divinely eternal and also ephemeral. thus, this passage must be corrupt.

@Davidylan: You are a Doctor in the making, havent you heard about the test-tube babies and Introvenous fertilisation? Medicine is so advanced, nowadays that that there may not be a need, in some cases, for the expected and usual man/woman sexual act, in order to produce a baby. You even have the gene manupilation effect, which is known as cloning. In all of the examples provided, with a great care, the hymen of a virgin may not be broken, through the process of pregnancy!

                                              The Meaning of "His Word and a spirit from Him" (as it relates to Jesus son of mary, as)

`Abdur-Razzaq narrated that Ma`mar said that Qatadah said that the Ayah,
(And His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit from [created by] Him means, He said,
(Be) and he was. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ahmad bin Sinan Al-Wasiti said that he heard Shadh bin Yahya saying about Allah's statement,
(and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit from [created by] Him "`Isa was not the word. Rather, `Isa came to existence because of the word.'' Al-Bukhari recorded that `Ubadah bin As-Samit said that the Prophet said,

(If anyone testifies that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His servant and Messenger, and that `Isa is Allah's servant and Messenger and His Word which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true and Hell is true, then Allah will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he performed.) In another narration, the Prophet said,
(, through any of the eight doors of Paradise he wishes.) Muslim also recorded it. Therefore, `Ruh from Allah', in the Ayah and the Hadith is similar to Allah's statement,

(And has subjected to you all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth; it is all from Him.) meaning, from His creation. `from Him' does not mean that it is a part of Him, as the Christians claim, may Allah's continued curses be upon them. Saying that something is from Allah, such as the spirit of Allah, the she-camel of Allah or the House of Allah, is meant to honor such items. Allah said,

(This is the she-camel of Allah, ) and,
(and sanctify My House for those who circumambulate it.) An authentic Hadith states,
(I will enter on my Lord in His Home) All these examples are meant to honor such items when they are attributed to Allah in this manner. Allah said,
(so believe in Allah and His Messengers.) believe that Allah is One and Alone and that He does not have a son or wife. Know and be certain that `Isa is the servant and Messenger of Allah. Allah said after that,

(Say not: "Three!" do not elevate `Isa and his mother to be gods with Allah. Allah is far holier than what they attribute to Him. In Surat Al-Ma'idah (chapter 5), Allah said,
(Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three.'' But there is none who has the right to be worshipped but One God.) Allah said by the end of the same Surah,
(And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O `Isa, son of Maryam! Did you say unto men: `Worship me''') and in its beginning,

(Surely, in disbelief are they who say that Allah is the Messiah, son of Maryam.) The Christians, may Allah curse them, have no limit to their disbelief because of their ignorance, so their deviant statements and their misguidance grows. Some of them believe that `Isa is Allah, some believe that he is one in a trinity and some believe that he is the son of Allah. Their beliefs and creeds are numerous and contradict each other, prompting some people to say that if ten Christians meet, they would end up with eleven sects!


                                                                The Description of `Isa, upon him be Peace

As mentioned earlier, `Abdur-Rahman bin Adam narrated that Abu Hurayrah said that the Prophet said,
(If you see `Isa, know him. He is a well-built man, (the color of his skin) between red and white. He will descend while wearing light yellow garments. His head looks like it is dripping water, even though no moisture touched it.) In the Hadith that An-Nawwas bin Sam`an narrated,

(He will descend close to the white minaret to the east of Damascus. He will be wearing two garments lightly colored with saffron, having his hands on the wings of two angels. Whenever he lowers his head, drops will fall off of it. Whenever he raises his head, precious jewels like pearls will fall off of it. No disbeliever can survive `Isa's breath, and his breath reaches the distance of his sight.) Al-Bukhari and Muslim recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said,
(I met Musa on the night of my Ascension to heaven.) The Prophet then described him saying, as I think,

(He was a tall person with hair as if he was one of the men from the tribe of Shanu'ah. ) The Prophet further said,
(`I met `Isa.' The Prophet described him saying, `He was of moderate height and was red-faced as if he had just come out of a bathroom. I saw Ibrahim whom I resembled more than any of his children did.') Al-Bukhari recorded that Mujahid said that Ibn `Umar said that the Messenger of Allah said
(I saw Musa, `Isa and Ibrahim. `Isa was of red complexion and had curly hair and a broad chest. Musa was of brown complexion and had straight hair and a tall stature, as if he was from the people of Az-Zutt.) Al-Bukhari and Muslim recorded that Ibrahim said that `Abdullah bin `Umar said, "The Prophet once mentioned the False Messiah (Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal) to people, saying,

(Allah is not blind in His Eye. Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal is blind in his right eye. His eye is like a protruding grape.)'' Muslim recorded that the Messenger of Allah said,
(In a dream, I was at the Ka`bah and Allah made me see a light - colored man, a color that is as beautiful as a light - colored man could be, with combed hair that reached his shoulders. His hair was dripping water, and he was leaning on the shoulders of two men while circling the Ka`bah. I asked, `Who is this man' I was told, `This is the Al-Masih, son of Maryam.' Behind him, I saw a man with very curly hair who was blind in his right eye. He looked exactly as Ibn Qatan, and he was leaning on the shoulder of a man while circling the House. I asked, `Who is this man' I was told, `He is Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal.') Al-Bukhari recorded that Salim said that his father said, "No, By Allah! The Prophet did not say that `Isa was of red complexion but said,

(While I was asleep circumambulating the Ka`bah (in my dream), I suddenly saw a man of brown complexion and ample hair walking between two men with water dripping from his head. I asked, `Who is this' The people said, `He is the son of Maryam.' Then I looked behind and I saw a red-complexioned, fat, curly-haired man, blind in the right eye, which looked like a bulging out grape. I asked, `Who is this' They replied, `He is Ad-Dajjal.' The person he most resembled is Ibn Qatan.)'' Az-Zuhri commented that Ibn Qatan was a man from the tribe of Khuza`ah who died during the time of Jahiliyyah. This is the wording of Al-Bukhari. Allah's statement,

(And on the Day of Resurrection, he (`Isa) will be a witness against them) Qatadah said, "He will bear witness before them that he has delivered the Message from Allah and that he is but a servant of His.'' In a similar statement in the end of Surat Al-Ma'idah,
(And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O `Isa, son of Maryam! Did you say unto men, '') until,
(Almighty, the All-Wise.)
(160. For the wrongdoing of the Jews, We made unlawful for them certain good foods which had been lawful for themـand for their hindering many from Allah's way (161. And their taking of Riba though they were forbidden from taking it, and their devouring men's substance wrongfully. And We have prepared for the disbelievers among them a painful torment.) (162. But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what has been sent down to you and what was sent down before you; and those who perform the Salah, and give Zakah and believe in Allah and in the Last Day, it is they to whom We shall give a great reward.)

@Lakpene,

Lakpenne:

"If you do believe then that Jesus Christ will come to kill the anti-christ then you are indirectly saying He is coming to kill islam eh?"

Umm, no. the annointed one is the one who is the deliverer of a people. The one who has been wiped over (annointed or messiah) such that he is able to perform miracles by the will of God as a sign to the people. The anti-christ or the false messiah will come to wipe over things by making it seems as if he possessed the powers of the one who has been wiped over (messiah). Jesus never died and it was written for him to defeat the false messiah since he is the one called the messiah and he shall return to finish the job.

Do you sometimes try to apply a bit of common sense when you argue? One question: have you ever thought about the reason as to why ONLY Jesus is referred to as the Messiah in Islam?

Lakpenne:

Why not the Prophet Muhammad? Not his job. Why not Muhammad splitting the sea to allow the Jews to cross? Not what was written for him. Nevertheless, this does not prove the divinity of Jesus. BTW, just because Jesus is returning does not make him God.

You have hugely defeated the core arguments of Muslims who have perennialy tried to dribble Muhammad into the Bible to authenticate his career! If it was "not his job" nor "written for him" (Muhammad), where indeed does Muhammad appear in the Bible, if at all?

Lakpenne:

The problem with what you have said is that the only proof of Jesus' divinity is in the Bible despite the fact that the same Bible says otherwise. Now, I agee that there are instances where God does tings that defy what we are accustomed to by with the issue of Jesus' claimed divinity, God even defies himself.

It is true that the Bible teaches about the deity of Jesus Christ. Perhaps by the same token, we may ask you to prove some of the claims of the Qur'an outside of the Qur'an and then sit back to see how you fair?

For instance:

(1) where outside the Qur'an was Adam said to be the first Muslim?

(2) where outside the Qur'an did Abraham worship in the Kaa'ba?

Even though you're focusing on the deity of Jesus Christ, the same arguments you advance for your ideas simply won't back the Qur'an by any stretch.

Lakpenne:

Take the ten commandments. The first like three or four all pretty much send the message that God is one and u should not set up partnership with them.

It all depends on what exactly you mean by "set up partnership", because by the same rule of thumb, there are tomes of evidence that Muhammad was also known as "Lord" among Muslims - although many Muslims today deny the fact!

Lakpenne:

Yet, Jesus is exaclty that. Then the Prophets before Jesus admonished their people against setting up partnership with God, then Mohamed says the same thing and as I have expounded before, the transcendant nature of God requires that he is also not ephemeral.

Relax. Rather than try to make God into your own image, please do the sane thing and ask yourself carefully if Muhammad actually knew the God of the Biblical prophets. Let's begin on the question of whether Muhammad knew the Spirit of God (which every Biblical prophet knew); and also whether Muhammad ever heard God speak to him personally.

I propose these two issues for one reason: which is that, we often read in the Hadiths the many statements of Muhammad who purports to be putting words in "Allah's" mouth in such categorical statements as "Allah will say" thus-and-thus! How would Muhammad know that "Allah" would say such things when as a matter of fact Muhammad never once heard God speak to him throughout his career as a Quraish prophet?

Lakpenne:

Now, in the Bible, God supposedly comes and blows out of the water everything he send prior messengers to preach against. Makes no sense. Logic, the Quran, the other Prophets, the Bible itself in some sections say the total opposite.

Don't even go down the road of "logic". Muslims often appeal to that tool in explicating issues from the Qur'an; but often times they have never held up such Qur'anic claims by the tools they employed!

Lakpenne:

I would side with what God, his Prophets and logic says together than with what the apostle Paul or someone that wrote those sections of the Bible claim.

Which simply is a terse denial of the claims of the Qur'an where "Allah" is purported to have given the Torah to Moses, the Zabur (Psalms) to David; the Injil to Jesus; and the other Scriptures to all the prophets!

What you have failed to understand here is that those Scriptures were pened down by those prophets, contrary to the claims in the Qur'an of "Allah" having "revealed" any so-called "book" to them!

Lakpenne:

In particular, look at the third commandment: "You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"

This is a clear commandment against idol worship of anything other than God, whether in heavens or earth or in the sea. What is Jesus except an ephemeral being on earth.

If your arguemnt stands at all, then Muslims are deliberate idol-worshippers as well. In as much as no one and nothing is to be associated with "Allah", to then associate Muhammad with him is classic and pretentious shirk!

Lakpenne:

You said about Paul's lettter: "Note: that phrase "God was manifest in the flesh" . . . that is Jesus Christ being refered to as God by those who not only heard him speak but knew Him much more than we do today."

-- this is Paul speaking. Even if it was Jesus, how do we know if this part of the Bible is the true part or the changed part, Does not matter b/c it can be evaluated independently based on what it says. The ten commandments and everyone says, one God, no idol worship. this passage says worship some man on earth because God came as flesh. pure nonesense. A thing cannot e both divinely eternal and also ephemeral. thus, this passage must be corrupt.

One question: How do we know that any part of the Qur'an is "true" when Muhammad made claims that no Muslim have been able to verify? Not to be tedious with you, but please try those where Muhammad tried to dribble himself into the same Bible that Muslims ridicule today and let's see how you fair.

@olabowale,

olabowale:

(Say not: "Three!" do not elevate `Isa and his mother to be gods with Allah. Allah is far holier than what they attribute to Him.

Nobody is "elevating" Isa and his mother to be gods with "Allah". Muhammad should have got his facts right before pretending to be receiving "revelations" from 'Allah'. It was the Catholic monk who fed Muhammad his Catholic doctrine of Mariolatry that made Muhammad wrongly assume that the Trinity comprised 'Allah', Jesus and Mary!

If Muhammad knew nothing about the Holy Spirit and mistook Him for the angel Gabriel, is it any wonder that he obviously missed the issue by a million miles? Is such fallacy the sort of "revelation" that would come from God?

How is it that the Biblical prophets all knew the Holy Spirit was NOT angel Gabriel - and yet, Muhammad mistook Him for Gabriel as well as goofed on the Trinity? Even if he may not believe anything in the Bible because it was beyond his mind to grasp, would he then have tried to mislead people on the presupposition that he was receiving "revelation" from God - when obviously the said "revelation" was an utter fallacy?

olabowale:


The Description of `Isa, upon him be
(He was a tall person with hair as if he was one of the men from the tribe of Shanu'ah. ) The Prophet further said,
(`I met `Isa.' The Prophet described him saying, `He was of moderate height and was red-faced as if he had just come out of a bathroom.

Another hadith also records Muhammad boasting about being the closest in resemblance to Jesus. Question: was Muhammad resembling a Jew - the same Jews that he cursed to his last breath and took his anti-Jewish hatred to his grave with him?

It is so easy for you guys to quickly choose those portions of the Hadiths that best appeal to you. But when the real grit of issues come to bear, you begin to deny the same Hadiths and declare them "fabricated". Well done!

thanks a million @ pilgrim.1, a bit busy at the moment.
perhaps lakpenne thot he had sent me to bed so soon.

olabowale:

@Davidylan: So your father is God? Then god is a Nigerian then. Which town is he from, again? Nigeria does have one over the other nations then. You and backslider, cgift, Nwando, Pilgrim.1, etc must be siblings!

Listen to what Christ said.

Jhn 20:16   Jesus said to her, "Mary!" She turned and said to Him,[fn1] "Rabboni!" (which is to say, Teacher).

Jhn 20:17   Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"

and about Christians being siblings.

.
Rom 8:14   For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Rom 8:15   For you did not receive the spirit of again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

Rom 8:16   The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Jhn 1:12   But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

Just because you say your father is God, does not mean that you are telling the truth. Infact, it is blasphemy. You will be punish for such a blasphemy. If you are my Nephew, saying something like that, I will have to ask my sibling who is your parent, if is it true what you are saying? Your statement of being son of God is completely false.

I answered you above.
That is who God says we are.Sons and heirs of righteousness.

Surprisingly, some of the sons and daughters of God are very poor. We see alot of them as poor, as a church mouse, in NYC. Yet the church leaders,  will not help the poorer siblings.  Instead, the poor church goers are required to pay tilt, the first crop, etc. A whole bunch of these children of God are committing some of the worst crimes, eg fornication and adultery. Yet they are not concerned about the anger of their Father.

You've jumped from one topic to a completely irrelevant one.
What has poverty,crimes and lewdness got to do with the topic at hand.
I do not judge Muslims by the action of other muslims except it has a bearing to the lifestyle of Muhammad.
Islam for instance is against adultery and fornication ,does it mean there are no adulterers in the Islamic world or does it make it condoned?
Why should you judge Christians by the actions of some Christians even though you know that is not what Christ taught or practised.
The bible makes it clear that adultery and fornication is sin and that any Christian indulging in those will not inherit the kingdom of God without genuine repentance.
Grace is no license to sin,I already told you that in another thread .

Now see it again.
Please read this.
The Bible has an answer to all your questions regarding living and it is not by being strong willed,it is by constant communion with the Lord and his infilling Spirit in us gives us the grace to live holy because God is holy.
We do fall because we are humans,but God is able to pick us up by his grace and put us back on the path that we must go.

Here,just for you olabowole.

Gal 5:17   For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Gal 5:18   But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Gal 5:19   Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[fn3] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,

Gal 5:20   idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,

Gal 5:21   envy, murders,[fn4] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:22   But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Gal 5:23   gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Gal 5:24   And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Gal 5:25   If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Gal 5:26   Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

@nwando,

Lol. . . abeg continue to educate that elderly man! He sometimes amuses me with his rants!

@davidylan,

davidylan:

thanks a million @ pilgrim.1, a bit busy at the moment.
perhaps lakpenne thot he had sent me to bed so soon.

Bo, bros. . na all of the Christians for this Forum I go thank! I have been away and very, very busy; but I was not surprised at all to come back and see the bruhaha from those who keep tripping over their shoe-laces.

Anyhow, well done again! I do hope to find some more time to help in the discussions by next week. Cheers.

Olabowole is a nice guy and has a genuinely good heart.
I told him that last year.

I can also understand his frustrations and difficulties,he did not make a choice to be a Muslim,he simply became one at birth according to Islam.
Christians however know that Christianity is a clear choice.
I was born into a protestant family that went to Church religiously and at the right age,we kids were confirmed and received holy communion according to the teachings of the Anglican Church.

But then something happened.
God revealed himself to me at the fullness of time his very essence and I knelt beside my bed,at 17,alone and in tears and surrendered to him.
That is the day I became a follower of Christ even though I had been "baptized" and confirmed years before.
It did not happen by any man's doing,I was not in need or destitute.
I was not wallowing in sin and needed a way out.
I was just a young freshman in college at the prime of my youth and I thank God for that day.

And I have never regretted that decision

So I am talking about The God that I have tasted and found out to be true.
I am as convinced about my Lord as I am convinced that I'm a female.
I have seen miracles,I have seen things impossible happen,I have seen a woman without fallopian tubes give birth to children,I have seen breast cancers disappear.
I have heard the voice of God speak expressly and it was confirmed over and over again.
Above all things I know the peace within me that only Christ can give.

I challenge Olabowole and any Muslims,tonight to kneel and pray a simple prayer.
Ask Christ sincerely that if these things Nwando says are true,that he should reveal himself to them and I promise them that he will and will set them free.

Lakpenne:

Jesus never died and it was written for him to defeat the false messiah since he is the one called the messiah and he shall return to finish the job.

You do not understand who the anti-christ is and what he symbolises yet you keep repeating this mantra just like your imam taught you to. Have you ever wondered why Jesus Christ is regarded as the Messiah whom even muslims are expecting despite the fact that mohamadu regarded himself as the "last prophet"?

Who is the "false messiah"? How shall we know him? Surely allah must have been explicit!

Lakpenne:

The problem with what you have said is that the only proof of Jesus' divinity is in the Bible despite the fact that the same Bible says otherwise. Now, I agee that there are instances where God does tings that defy what we are accustomed to by with the issue of Jesus' claimed divinity, God even defies himself.

There are literarily tens of bible verses clearly identifying Jesus Christ as God right from the old testament. . . the books of Isaiah and the psalms are just one example. You claim that the bible says otherwise YET you have miserably failed to show me JUST ONE verse that backs up your rant.

Yes, did you expect the proof of Jesus Christ's divinity to be in the hindus book?

Lakpenne:

-- this is Paul speaking. Even if it was Jesus, how do we know if this part of the Bible is the true part or the changed part, Does not matter b/c it can be evaluated independently based on what it says. The ten commandments and everyone says, one God, no idol worship. this passage says worship some man on earth because God came as flesh. pure nonesense. A thing cannot e both divinely eternal and also ephemeral. thus, this passage must be corrupt.

the argument of "biblical corruption" was mohamadu's clever trick to in his grand design to deny the Lordship of Jesus Christ.  That is why the books of Paul are a pain in the ears of muslims.

If God came as flesh, does that mean He forever ceased to be God? If God could appear in a burning bush to Moses, as angels to Abraham, as a still small voice to Elijah, as a man in the fiery furnace to the shadrack, meshack and abednego then HOW could He not come as flesh and still remain God?

lol anything muslims cannot force fit into the quran is suddenly corrupt. WHERE is the injil allah claimed to have sent through your quranic Jesus? Bring it and let us "correct" the "corrupt verses". Failure to do so simply means mohamadu and the idol he took out of the kaaba and began to venerate are both inverterate liars!

Pilgrim, you are late and have added nothing to athe argument:

you say Mohammed was considered Lord among Muslims - although many Muslims today deny the fact!  - proof please, proof

Once again, deal with my challenge which is explaining how the eternal God can also be ephemeral.  You can't.

You ask such Q like where outside the Quran is such and such.  Where outside the Bible is Jesus God, not in the torah which preceded the Bible.  not in the Quran which suceeded  the Bible and indeed, I arguee, not in the Bible itself as it contradicts the ten commmandments and the warnings of God as told to  the prior Prophets and also logic.

Please, lets talk sense here.  You are either divine and transcendant or you are not.  I sound like a broken record cause no one can provide a rational logic proof of how God is eternal yet ephemeral other than  saying cause the Bible says so.  Nonesense.  

So God is eternal uncreated and then created Himself in the form of Jesus.  Jesus! that's nuts.  Logic please, logic.

Lakpenne:

Once again, deal with my challenge which is explaining how the eternal God can also be ephemeral. You can't.

this is no challenge at all but a spiritual blindfold tied securely around your eyes by the spirit of darkness that seeing you will continue to see yet will not percieve.
Look at how the book of Phillipians addresses the very question you pose:

Phil 2: 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Clearly . . . the early apostles understood the very nature of God. Jesus Christ is God but took upon Himself the likeness of men that He might humble Himself unto death on the cross through which we recieve redemption!

Lakpenne:

You ask such Q like where outside the Quran is such and such. Where outside the Bible is Jesus God, not in the torah which preceded the Bible. not in the Quran which suceeded the Bible and indeed, I arguee, not in the Bible itself as it contradicts the ten commmandments and the warnings of God as told to the prior Prophets and also logic.

Pls look closely at the two phrases in highlights:
1. The torah is a part of the bible as it comprises the 5 books of Moses. . . Genesis - Deuteronomy. Unless of course you muslims have torn it out of your own copies of the bible. Where however is the torah allah claimed to have handed to Moses IN THE QURAN?

2. If the quran suceeded the bible how come you claimed earlier that Jesus Christ still had unfinished work? Does that make sense at all? Shldnt allah be sending mohamadu then in the stead of Jesus Christ?

Lakpenne:

Please, lets talk sense here. You are either divine and transcendant or you are not.

Since when did you begin to tell God what He can be or what He cant be? I'd like to know how you obtained such divine authority.

Lakpenne:

I sound like a broken record cause no one can provide a rational logic proof of how God is eternal yet ephemeral other than saying cause the Bible says so. Nonesense.

What is the proof that Jesus Christ is not God BESIDES the many lies of mohamadu?

Lakpenne:

So God is eternal uncreated and then created Himself in the form of Jesus. Jesus! that's nuts. Logic please, logic.

By logic (searching) thou canst not find God. Keep trying though.

Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me."

Rev. 1:17 - "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."

hmmm and Lakpenne keeps saying the Bible denied the Lordship of Jesus Christ? By the words of thy mouth thou art condemned!

How difficult is it for the carnal   man to believe that a woman can give birth without   knowing a man         .
Yet somehow mohammed smuggled that part into the Koran and Muslims believe it even though there is never any record of it before or after the birth of Christ.
If God is able to make a virgin conceive and bear a son,is it impossible for him to do anything?

@Lakpene,

Lakpenne:

Pilgrim, you are late and have added nothing to athe argument:

You're so predictable! I could almost have written that very line and hidden in one of the threads as a teaser that it would be exactly what you'd come back to say! No worries - your Muslim apologists often use those lines when they're about taking a fit!

Lakpenne:

you say Muhammad was considered Lord among Muslims - although many Muslims today deny the fact!  - proof please, proof

Keep crying! It is this kind of backward redundant and cowardly denials that make me wonder IF you guys EVER study your own Islam at all!!

For the record, I was a former Muslim. . . of the Sunni muslimah; and although there were so many shades of Muslim sectarian groups, it was widely known that Muhammad was known and addressed as "Lord" (some still have the practice to date), although many Muslims are trying ever so hard to cover up the FACT!!

[center]Can you please come back and boldly deny the fact?[/center]

When you have denied the fact, then I will do 3 things:

(a) I will then understand that you're simply an empty barrel pretending a scholarship you don't have about your religion! Even though I've left Islam for quite some years now, I wonder how it is that I still know a few facts even to date than most Muslim pretenders parade of themselves! Nonetheless, I don't make any special claims for myself.

(b) I will then understand how easy it for Muslims to try to DENY and hide the facts in hope that no one takes notice!

(c) and then I will refer you to a few materials (which I hope will still be avaible on the internet - if not, then I will offer you the references and then leave it up to you to go check the facts yourself. . . fair deal?).

No disrespect to your person - and I quickly apologise if you feel any discomfort from reading my replies. But I simply want you to see the facts and not tow the line of those who we have become accustomed to on the Forum.

Lakpenne:

Once again, deal with my challenge which is explaining how the eternal God can also be ephemeral.  You can't.

You're only hoping that I could not - and if you have already made up your mind, what do I need to bother wasting any scholarship on you - so you could come back and tear out your hair as you deny them yet again?

Lakpenne:

You ask such Q like where outside the Quran is such and such.  Where outside the Bible is Jesus God, not in the torah which preceded the Bible.  not in the Quran which suceeded  the Bible and indeed, I arguee, not in the Bible itself as it contradicts the ten commmandments and the warnings of God as told to  the prior Prophets and also logic.

My dear sailor, please coast nearer to the shore before you bellow  "ahoy!"

Look carefully again at the Torah - could you explicate Genesis 1:26 - "Let US make man in our image"? Does that ring a bell to you. . . or you would again want to device another means of your cosmetic denials?

Now, my dear, wher outside the Qur'an do we find Adam as the first Muslim, hmm? And about Abraham and the Kaa'ba. . . ?!?

Lakpenne:

Please, lets talk sense here.  You are either divine and transcendant or you are not.  I sound like a broken record cause no one can provide a rational logic proof of how God is eternal yet ephemeral other than  saying cause the Bible says so.  Nonesense.

We haven't even started yet and you're tearing out your hair already? Please let me know when you're ready to listen - I already hinted the common sense approach in my previous reposte. . . and you will do yourself a load of good if you borrow some where you lack it!

Lakpenne:

So God is eternal uncreated and then created Himself in the form of Jesus.  Jesus! that's nuts.  Logic please, logic.  

Lol. . . do you see how your own logic fails you? The first lesson you learn in logic is that you do not alter the facts! When you assume that God created Himself, you have already defeated your purpose and any arguments you pretend - because nowhere in the Bible is the idea floated that Jesus was "created" - that is the humongous fallacy of Muhammad in the Qur'an!!

I warned you - don't bring your otiose logic to the table - unless you want to tear out more hair and limp home bald!!

Davidylan:
"There are literarily tens of bible verses clearly identifying Jesus Christ as God right from the old testament. . . the books of Isaiah and the psalms are just one example. You claim that the bible says otherwise YET you have miserably failed to show me JUST ONE verse that backs up your rant."

In which Bible.  LOL, LOL LOL, LOL.  Get it?  which Bible, Get it.  There is only one Quran dude.  UR book is corrupt.  Its not even in it the orginal language.  All you have in your hands in a bunch of useless interpretations.  The injil, which you have corrupted does not exist anymore as God revealed it so U are left with the Bible.  Please bring me "THE BIBLE" and we can talk.  I can bring u a copy of "THE QURAN" in its original text.  Even if you were to say the Quran is not the word of God ro revelation, damn at least I have the original thing that was claimed to be the word of God.

If you at some point had the word of God, you sure don't anymore.  You have Paul's book, filled with truth and lies about the transcendant One.

With respect to verses in the old testament that says Jesus is God, where are they and how do you conform that with those say he is not and the God has no partners.  

You admit Jesus cried out like a little girl saying God why have you forsaken me and also said that he was tempted by Satan.  Please, in what Universe will God cry like a little girl and to whom was he praying asking for help.  Himself?  U know what we do with people like that.  Jesus is not God based solely on that argument alone and indeed, that is not the behaviour of one that is a Prophet so I deny that this event is autentic, even if its in the Bible.

See, I can argue all day on logic without resort to the Quran or Bible.  If Jesus is a Prophet and one who is annointed, does it make sense, logical sense that he cries over spilled milk when Isaac/Ishmael submitted?  I have made mention of this point several times and you keep dodging it.  Why?  Logic, dude, logic.

Mark 10:17-18:

"And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good?  There is none good but one, that is God."

Whoops, blows you away doesn't it.  If Jesus was God, then who is this God that's Good.  If its God above, then Jesus is not divine.  If you say he is then we have two divine beings?  Logic baby, logic.  So, how do you explain the above in light of your fake verses that claim Jesus said he is God.  They must be fake cause they are not supported by any other Prophetic warnings prior to Jesus.

Then:  Luke 11:27-28:

"And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and paps which thous hast sucked.  But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."

How come u guys don't draw our attention to these verses and at least try to explain them.  Clearly Jesus in this verse is warning us against over praising him and that all praise is due to God Almighty.  See, I waited for you to bring up the the issue of the Biblical passages and then hit u with the the above.  Oh, I got more.  Bring it.

See, the above passage is consistent with what the prior Prophets said, what Jesus actually said and what Mohammed, after Jesus, said - worship God an praise Him, don't over praise man.  That Jesus is God is completely inconsitent verses and common sense.

davidylan:

hmmm and Lakpenne keeps saying the Bible denied the Lordship of Jesus Christ? By the words of thy mouth thou art condemned!

Hehehe-hoho-haha!  I no fit laugh again O!

Lakpenne:

Please, lets talk sense here.  You are either divine and transcendant or you are not.  I sound like a broken record cause no one can provide a rational logic proof of how God is eternal yet ephemeral other than  saying cause the Bible says so.  Nonesense.  

So God is eternal uncreated and then created Himself in the form of Jesus.  Jesus! that's nuts.  Logic please, logic.  

Your unregenerated mind could never comprehend it no matter how hard you tried.
The Bible knew there'll be people like this,see what it says.


1Cr 2:14   But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

again it says

The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

and lastly
 
Pro 24:7 Wisdom [is] too high for a fool:

Lakpenne:

Davidylan:
"There are literarily tens of bible verses clearly identifying Jesus Christ as God right from the old testament. . . the books of Isaiah and the psalms are just one example. You claim that the bible says otherwise YET you have miserably failed to show me JUST ONE verse that backs up your rant."

In which Bible.  LOL, LOL LOL, LOL.  Get it?  which Bible, Get it.  There is only one Quran dude.  UR book is corrupt.  Its not even in it the orginal language.  All you have in your hands in a bunch of useless interpretations.  The injil, which you have corrupted does not exist anymore as God revealed it so You are left with the Bible.  Please bring me "THE BIBLE" and we can talk.  I can bring u a copy of "THE QURAN" in its original text.  Even if you were to say the Quran is not the word of God ro revelation, damn at least I have the original thing that was claimed to be the word of God.

If you at some point had the word of God, you sure don't anymore.  You have Paul's book, filled with truth and lies about the transcendant One.

With respect to verses in the old testament that says Jesus is God, where are they and how do you conform that with those say he is not and the God has no partners. 

You admit Jesus cried out like a little girl saying God why have you forsaken me and also said that he was tempted by Satan.  Please, in what Universe will God cry like a little girl and to whom was he praying asking for help.  Himself?  You know what we do with people like that.  Jesus is not God based solely on that argument alone and indeed, that is not the behaviour of one that is a Prophet so I deny that this event is autentic, even if its in the Bible.

See, I can argue all day on logic without resort to the Quran or Bible.  If Jesus is a Prophet and one who is annointed, does it make sense, logical sense that he cries over spilled milk when Isaac/Ishmael submitted?  I have made mention of this point several times and you keep dodging it.  Why?  Logic, dude, logic.

Mark 10:17-18:

"And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good?  There is none good but one, that is God."

Whoops, blows you away doesn't it.  If Jesus was God, then who is this God that's Good.  If its God above, then Jesus is not divine.  If you say he is then we have two divine beings?  Logic baby, logic.  So, how do you explain the above in light of your fake verses that claim Jesus said he is God.  They must be fake cause they are not supported by any other Prophetic warnings prior to Jesus.

Then:  Luke 11:27-28:

"And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and paps which thous hast sucked.  But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."

How come u guys don't draw our attention to these verses and at least try to explain them.  Clearly Jesus in this verse is warning us against over praising him and that all praise is due to God Almighty.  See, I waited for you to bring up the the issue of the Biblical passages and then hit u with the the above.  Oh, I got more.  Bring it.

See, the above passage is consistent with what the prior Prophets said, what Jesus actually said and what Muhammad, after Jesus, said - worship God an praise Him, don't over praise man.  That Jesus is God is completely inconsitent verses and common sense.

Your arguments are not new.
Christianity is based on the deity of Christ.
And the devil is not comfortable with that so he fights like a toothless bulldog.
Do not be deceived.His ways are not new.
If he had his way,Mary would have died at pregnancy,but since Christ is alive,he still can't handle it.

THE DEITY OF JESUS CHRIST

.I.     Jesus Christ was more than a "good man." He is God.
               Philippians 2:6
               Hebrews 1:8

        A.    He Himself claimed to be God.
                       John 4:26; 8:23; 10:30; 13:13; 14:7-10

        B.    He accepted worship.
                       Matthew 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 18:26; 28:9, 17
                       Mark 5:6; Luke 24:52; John 5:22, 23; John 9:38

        C.    He claimed the power and authority to forgive sin.
                       Matthew 9:6; Mark 2:7

        D.    "He was God manifest in the flesh" (l Timothy 3:16), "for in
                Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily"
                (Colossians 2:9).

        E.    "God was in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:19), Who is "the
               brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, "
               (Hebrews 1:3).

        F.   Jesus is therefore throughout scripture referred to as the
              "image of God."
                      John 1:18; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15
                      Philippians 2:6

II.    By the names attributed to him in scripture it can be seen that
        Jesus Christ was truly God as well as man.

       A.    "Mighty God."   Isaiah 9:6
       B.    The Word of God.   John 1:1; Revelation 19:13, 16
       C.    "Immanuel," meaning "God with us."   Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23
       D.    The Almighty.   Revelation 1:8
       E .   The "I Am."   John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14
       F.    "My Lord and my God!"   John 20:28
       G.     The "Alpha and Omega" (first and last).   
                     Isaiah 44:6; 48:12; Revelation 1:8, 11, 17; 2:8; 21:6; 22:13
       H.    Son of God.   Matthew 17:5; Mark 1:1; Luke 1:35; 1 John 4:15


III.   Jesus Christ possessed all the attributes of God.

        A.    He was (is) omniscient (all-knowing).
                        John 4:25, 26, 29; 6:64; 13:11; 19:28; 21:17

                1.    He knew their thoughts.
                               Matthew 9:4; 12:25; 22:18; Mark 2:8; 12:15
                               Luke 5:22; 6:8; 9:47; 11:17
                               John 2:24, 25; 5:42; 6:6; 16:19, 30; Acts 1:24

                 2.  He even foretold His own death by crucifixion.
                               Matthew 16:21; 17:22, 23; 20:18, 19
                               John 2:19, 21, 22; 12:23, 24, 32-33

          B.   He is omnipresent (everywhere).
                       Matthew 18:20; 28:20; Ephesians 1:23

          C.   He is omnipotent (all-powerful).
                        Daniel 7:13, 14; Matthew 28:18
                        John 3:31, 35; 17:2; 1 Peter 3:22

           D.   He is eternal.
                         1 Timothy 1:17; 6:16; Revelation 1:4, 5

                  1.    Scripture claims that Christ was pre-existent to the
                         creation of the world, that He was present with the
                         Father from the beginning of time.
                                Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7 (",  us ,  our ,  our , "
                                Proverbs 8:22-36; Isaiah 48:12, 16; Micah 5:2
                                John 1:1-3, 10; 3:13; 6:62; 17:5, 24; 8:35, 58
                                1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 3:9; Philippians 2:5
                                Colossians 1:15-19
                                Romans 11:36; Hebrews 1:2; Revelation 3:14

                   2.   Jesus is "the first and the last" (Isaiah 44:6; 48:12;
                         Revelation 1:11, 17), the "Alpha and Omega, the
                         beginning and the end" (Revelation 1:8, 11; 2:8;
                         21:6; 22:13).

           E.    He is unchanging.
                         Hebrews 13:8
                         John 8:58; 18:6 with Exodus 3:14 ("I AM"
                         Revelation 1:17, 18 ("the Living One"

IV.    Some claim that the death of Jesus Christ on the cross is proof that
         He could not have been God. What evidence is given in scripture
         to refute this argument?

          A.    Jesus' death on the cross was not due to failure or weakness
                 on His part. It was entirely voluntary.
                           Matthew 26:39, 42; Luke 22:42; John 10:17, 18
                           Philippians 2:5-9

           B.    It was the will of God that He suffer and die.
                           Isaiah 53:10   "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him, "

           C.    He even foretold His own death by crucifixion.
                            Matthew 20:18, 19; 16:21; Mark 8:31; 9:31; 10:32-34
                            John 2:19, 21, 22; 12:23, 24, 32, 33

           D.    He said that He had the power to lay down His life and had
                   power to take it back again.
                           John 10:17, 18

            E.    It was not necessary for Him to be defended, He said, for He
                   could have called upon the Father to send 10,000 legions of
                   angels for His protection.
                           Matthew 26:50-54

            F.   He overcame death by rising again. The resurrection alone
                  should be sufficient evidence of His divinity. (See Section
                  VI-E).

V.    Why was it necessary that He should become a man and die?

         A.     ",  that through death He might destroy him that had the
                  power of death, that is, the devil."
                            Hebrews 2:14

         B.    To "deliver them who through fear of death were all their
                 lifetime subject to ."
                           Hebrews 2:15

         C.    ",  that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things
                 pertaining to God ,  in that He Himself hath suffered being
                 tempted, He is able to succour them that are tempted."
                           Hebrews 2:17, 18; 4:14-16

          D.   ",  to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."
                           Hebrews 2:17

@Lakpenne,

Lakpenne:

In which Bible.  LOL, LOL LOL, LOL.  Get it?  which Bible, Get it.  There is only one Quran dude.

For the sake of a little more honesty, do you care to stop pretending you already don't know that the extant codices of the many Qur'an variations were BURNT by the third Caliph Uthman? Dude, what you have in your hands is the political redaction of Uthman.

Lakpenne:

UR book is corrupt.  Its not even in it the orginal language.

We've been through that excuse of "your book is corrupt" - and when I asked Muslims on this Forum if the Torah and Injil were revealed by "Allah", what greeted my simple question was yet another truckload of assertive denials! On pointing out to them that the Qur'an claimed that very thing, the Muslim noise-makers have never gone back to that thread!

Second, you boast of "original language" - and typically sound childish! Did your Muslim translators not say that once the Qur'an is translated into any other lnaguage, it ceases to be the word of Allah?

Even so, did the third Caliph Utham not make the statement that if his committee on collating the Qur'an disagreed on any matter, they should write the Qur'an in Quraish - for it was revealed in that language?

This rigid redundancy of a pretended language of a Qur'an nobody understands outside of the Quraish is a waste on the world's multicultral peoples.

Lakpenne:

All you have in your hands in a bunch of useless interpretations.

I've seen quite a handful of those bunch of useless "interpretations" of the Qur'an. The most hilarious to date that I came across is that by Perwah! Go figure!

Lakpenne:

The injil, which you have corrupted does not exist anymore as God revealed it so You are left with the Bible.  Please bring me "THE BIBLE" and we can talk.  I can bring u a copy of "THE QURAN" in its original text.  Even if you were to say the Quran is not the word of God ro revelation, damn at least I have the original thing that was claimed to be the word of God.

Stop whinging like a lost child! You sounding so desperate already!

We have asked a few questions of the purported "lost" Torah and Injil - please begin to read about your worst nightmares in this link: (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-53890.96.html#msg1684019). You guys have no shame; but let me help you with the same questions I once posed for those pretending a lost Torah and Injil:

Let me repeat them here:

Did 'Allah' reveal the BIBLE that you Muslims are attacking today?

Let me help you think about this topic by proposing a few questions:

(a) As a Muslim, do you believe that 'Allah' revealed the "BIBLE" - YES or NO?

(b) 'Allah' in the Qur'an declares that nobody can change his words:

  ~ there is none who can change the words of God (Sura 6:34)

  ~ There is none who can change His words (Sura 18:27)

  ~ My word shall not be changed (Sura 50:29)

If 'Allah' had revealed the BIBLE, why is he accusing his own revelation of "corruption" after declaring that nobody can alter/change his word?

(c) Did Allah claim anywhere in the Qur'an or Hadiths that the "Torah and Injil" were "lost"?

(d) If Allah did not make such a claim anywhere, why are you Muslims today unblushingly making such claims and further exposing your deceit?

Seems you're the latecomer afterall!

Lakpenne:

UR book is corrupt.

do you perchance know where i can get the original then to correct my "corrupt" copy? Allah claimed he sent the injil and torah and even confirmed it! where then is he hiding it?

Lakpenne:

 Its not even in it the orginal language.  

the manuscripts where the bible was translated from are still available. Ever heard of the dead sea scrolls?
But wait! What really does "original language" have to do with the validity of the bible? If indeed God created ALL languages, including English that was not in existence when the bible was written, is it too hard for Him to understand the bible where it to be translated into Polish for those in Poland and yoruba for my grand mother in the village?

What do muslims mean by "it is not in its original language"? Do we start learning aramaic, Hebrew, Greek all in a bid to read the bible IN ITS ORIGINAL LANGUAGE? Is God so weak that He cannot read or understand Igbo, hausa or French?

Lakpenne:

All you have in your hands in a bunch of useless interpretations.  

Especially now that they have exposed mohamadu for being an inverterate liar! Figured out who the antichrist is now?  

Lakpenne:

The injil, which you have corrupted does not exist anymore as God revealed it so You are left with the Bible.

uh oh! Allah has lost the injil?   how sad . . . a "god" could not even protect what he loudly claimed to have revealed. How then did you know that our bible is useless? Did you see the injil before it went out of existence?
I laugh at how muslims keep speaking from both sides of the mouth as long as it suits their interpretations of the quran. Soon you'll be hopping along struggling to force mohamadu into the very same bible you call a "book of useless interpretations".

Lakpenne:

Please bring me "THE BIBLE" and we can talk.  I can bring u a copy of "THE QURAN" in its original text.  Even if you were to say the Quran is not the word of God ro revelation, damn at least I have the original thing that was claimed to be the word of God.

The same quran that you still need the bible to support? The very same quran that is unintelligible? Is Jesus Christ's second coming prophesied in that quran or did you all steal it from the book of revelations?

Lakpenne:

If you at some point had the word of God, you sure don't anymore.  You have Paul's book, filled with truth and lies about the transcendant One.

seems mohamadu had a morbid fear of the books of Paul which make up less than 30% of the entire bible. For in them the anti-christ spirit of islam is exposed.

Lakpenne:

With respect to verses in the old testament that says Jesus is God, where are they and how do you conform that with those say he is not and the God has no partners.  

first you said there were no verses that said Jesus Christ is God now you are crying for OT verses? From the same books that you claim are useless interpretations?
Why are you bothered about the 10 commandments and what they say? Did you not claim that the torah as was revealed by allah is no longer in existence?

Lakpenne:

Mark 10:17-18:

"And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good?  There is none good but one, that is God."

Whoops, blows you away doesn't it.  If Jesus was God, then who is this God that's Good.  If its God above, then Jesus is not divine.  If you say he is then we have two divine beings?  Logic baby, logic.  So, how do you explain the above in light of your fake verses that claim Jesus said he is God.  They must be fake cause they are not supported by any other Prophetic warnings prior to Jesus.

Then:  Luke 11:27-28:

"And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and paps which thous hast sucked.  But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."

ahem! Quoting from a book of useless interpretations again?

Lakpenne:


How come u guys don't draw our attention to these verses and at least try to explain them.  Clearly Jesus in this verse is warning us against over praising him and that all praise is due to God Almighty.  See, I waited for you to bring up the the issue of the Biblical passages and then hit u with the the above.  Oh, I got more.  Bring it.

See, the above passage is consistent with what the prior Prophets said, what Jesus actually said and what Muhammad, after Jesus, said - worship God an praise Him, don't over praise man.  That Jesus is God is completely inconsitent verses and common sense.

how can a book of "useless interpretations" be CONSISTENT with what the prophet said? does that not make anything the prophet said be useless interpretations too?

Muslims and their penchant for dishonesty!