logicboy01:

ahahaha.


To be honest, some few of them reading this will have doubts about their religion but they would be to arrogant to admit it. Frosbel is probably dying inside

Read some of Frosbels latest threads. That guy is heading towards agnosticism.. he may not accept it, but thats how my journey to 'religion freedom' began..
You start questioning hell, begin to accomodate opposing views, next REASON tells you to be free..

musKeeto:
Read some of Frosbels latest threads. That guy is heading towards agnosticism.. he may not accept it, but thats how my journey to 'religion freedom' began..
You start questioning hell, begin to accomodate opposing views, next REASON tells you to be free..

Good. Hope he gets there soon

cyrexx: @ Ola Ajia

first of all i must express my appreciation for your objectivity. i understand that religious practice gives no allowance for any thoughts that run contrary to its beliefs system, you must be a bold and honest individual to say what you are now saying as a muslim. big kudos to you.

now, on the way forward that you suggested, i believe it is proper education and enlightenment and we all have a part to contribute. while i am not advocating that everybody should be an atheist like me, i would advocate people should just see their religion objectively for what it is, which is my primary reason for this post. you have begin to do this. if every christian and every muslim in nigeria will reason like you are doing now, we will have les and less of religious problem and exploitation in our nation. religion should not be a matter of life and death when people fully understand the basis for it in the first place.

i believe the boko haram menace, for instance, can only be solved by proper enlightenment, starting from their leaders down to every religious practitioner in the north. i believe if everyone sees religion for what it truly is,our nation will develop like other countries who did not allow religion to tie them down to barbaric mentalities.

thats just my humble opinion. other views are welcome.

thanks

True, but very few are even willing to listen, plus any talk that even as much as smells the topic of religion is usually greeted with deep and unreasonable suspicion. No one really wants to go beyond that which has been indoctrinated into them! Maybe @Pastor AIO's realisation-resigning to 'fate'-is the best thing to do for now.
It's just really hard to stomach the devastation, moreso that most of it is done by people that are totally convinced that they are right in doing what they do!

musKeeto:
Read some of Frosbels latest threads. That guy is heading towards agnosticism.. he may not accept it, but thats how my journey to 'religion freedom' began..
You start questioning hell, begin to accomodate opposing views, next REASON tells you to be free..

Keep hoping, I have believed for such a long time, I am entrenched in Christ the rock of my life, Nay my friend, never

I am simply challenging church tradition, much of which emanated from the medieval period in Europe , and which has been adopted as fact without scriptural backing in not a few protestant churches.

logicboy01:

-Secularism and freedom
-Educated masses
-Self sustaining nation that can provide resources for all citizens. The common man being able to feed his family

I find your points compelling, but at the same time, Utopian too; especially with respect to the last. It is quite obvious that many countries will not be able to provide resources for all citizens. The struggle for resources, as old as religion itself, is arguably the bedrock of all human conflicts and this will probably never end. We seem to be headed for doom one way or the other

frosbel:

Keep hoping, I have believed for such a long time, I am entrenched in Christ the rock of my life, Nay my friend, never

I am simply challenging church tradition, much of which emanated from the medieval period in Europe , and which has been adopted as fact without scriptural backing in not a few protestant churches.

Their interpretation vs yours, a history of all christian denominations and sects..

frosbel:

I am simply challenging church tradition, much of which emanated from the medieval period in Europe , and which has been adopted as fact without scriptural backing in not a few protestant churches.

what you dont know is that those church traditions have their deep root in the same bible that is the bedrock of your present faith
.
its funny how two different people can justify contradictory doctrines from the same bible.

i bet you that very very soon, you will start challenging the very bible itself, except you are very good at turning blind eyes to some issues.

thehomer:

Since you believe so strongly in objectivity and logical reasoning, why are you a Muslim?

You like the direct approach, don't you @thehomer?
The tacit assumption in your question is that I usually have conflicts between the two. This assumption is correct. I think I am about the only Muslim I know that questions the Quran, the very foundation of the Islamic faith, without fear. Let me sum it up this way, my reasoning is logical, but my values are Islamic, inevitably because of my background. There are also a few other practical & personal reasons (nothing to do with divine inspirations though) that make me one as yet.

Deepsight:
I JUST LOOOOOVE THIS WRITE-UP!

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ON POINT!

AND FABULOUSLY DELIVERED.

OYA, NA TO RUN GO USE AM CHASE MY PENTECOSTAL SIBLINGS.

Cyrex, did you write it yourself or is it culled?

.

Purist: Oh and by the way, that was an excellent piece by Cyrexx

Dipwater: I read ur post evri day and it makes me laugh. Very interesting cyrexx

thanxx guys, what i write can only be valuable with good readers and thinkers like you and others on this thread.

but actually i got this particular piece from a website with a lil bit of editing and some adaptations to fit it into Nigerian situation

http://godisimaginary.com/i7.htm

Martian:

Here's where it's from.
http://godisimaginary.com/i7.htm

Thanks. It's a great write-up. I already sent it to my siblings. They replied glumly saying "whatever works for each person. . ."

I asked if delusions ever "work" for anybody.

They said no, and refused to respond further.

EDIT: However, by way of note, I should point out that delusions actually sometimes work well for some people (like the placebo effect).

I'm surprised you like this argument because it can be used against you by your pentecostal siblings.

How so. I am not religious. I don't think that being of a Deist inclination is the same thing as subscribing to religious fairy tales.

If you call theirs nonsense, they can use the same eact format to call your beliefs about god nonsense......

They would have to rationally show how so: with logical points, as the OP did here.

I'm talking about unembodied brains

I have never used the phrase "unembodied brain" in my entire life.

and self existing things.

But there are self-existing things -

1. You once asked me for examples, i obliged and you went mum.

2. You must recognise that one way or the other, you cannot escape somethings being self-existent: You are surely aware that denying the existence of a precursor self-existent God, only leads to accepting a self-existent universe. So either way, one thing or the other must be self existent. As such, you cannot refer to the concept of self-existence as a fairy tale: for then, surely, the atheist who believes in a self-existent universe, such as thehomer, thereby has a fairytale as well.

Chew on this carefully, and be more careful next time you seek to mock a concept.

Why do they believe their chosen fairy tale with unrelenting passion and reject the others as nonsense?

It should occur to you that the atheistic notion that nothing arose from nothing and by nothing and for no purpose spawned the universe, is far more outlandish than the worst religious fairy tales.

OlaAjia:

You like the direct approach, don't you @thehomer?

Definitely.

OlaAjia:
The tacit assumption in your question is that I usually have conflicts between the two. This assumption is correct. I think I am about the only Muslim I know that questions the Quran, the very foundation of the Islamic faith, without fear. Let me sum it up this way, my reasoning is logical, but my values are Islamic, inevitably because of my background. There are also a few other practical & personal reasons (nothing to do with divine inspirations though) that make me one as yet.

What do you mean by Islamic values? By this question, I mean can the values you're referring to as Islamic values be found in other human cultures without Islam?
Could these practical and personal reasons be due to the environment in which you find yourself? i.e a chance of physical or social harm?
Finally, how do you resolve these conflicts? Do you surrender to a mullah or sheikh or some sort of authority figure or do you work your way to a solution by reasoning?

OlaAjia:

I find your points compelling, but at the same time, Utopian too; especially with respect to the last. It is quite obvious that many countries will not be able to provide resources for all citizens. The struggle for resources, as old as religion itself, is arguably the bedrock of all human conflicts and this will probably never end. We seem to be headed for doom one way or the other

100% agreed. Nigeria is not a poor country and has the resources to feed most if not all of its citizens.


I also forgot to mention that there are many Libyan muslims in Malta that are very cool people. Sometimes the environment influences the religion.

Deep Sight:

Ola Aija, you come across as both very decent and also level headed.

I would be interested in your specific take on this portion of the OP -

"Why is it that human beings can detect fairy tales with complete certainty when those fairy tales come from other faiths, but they cannot detect the fairy tales that underpin their own faith? Why do they believe their chosen fairy tale with unrelenting passion and reject the others as nonsense?"

Please, thanks.

Well, thanks

Because religion is in itself irrational, except when it's your religion that's in question. This is brought about by years of indoctrination, perhaps, and not just any kind of indoctrination, but one that promotes fear as the raison d'etre for belief. I think the fear of eternal damnation forces people to subconsciously create a defense mechanism for their professed faiths, however irrational, in the face of reason. This is unfortunate because the foundation of any progress has always come from the 'whys', 'whats', 'hows', 'ifs' and their variants. People who are upright must be willing to subject everything they hold sacrosanct to question, otherwise, they are merely holding on to dogmas.

OlaAjia:

Well, thanks

Because religion is in itself irrational, except when it's your religion that's in question. This is brought about by years of indoctrination, perhaps, and not just any kind of indoctrination, but one that promotes fear as the raison d'etre for belief. I think the fear of eternal damnation forces people to subconsciously create a defense mechanism for their professed faiths, however irrational, in the face of reason. This is unfortunate because the foundation of any progress has always come from the 'whys', 'whats', 'hows', 'ifs' and their variants. People who are upright must be willing to subject everything they hold sacrosanct to question, otherwise, they are merely holding on to dogmas.

Beautiful, thanks. Especially the last sentence.

Have you subjected the whole of your Islamic faith to exhaustive questioning?

Purist: I just dropped by to say that OlaAjia is the most objective (and possibly the most intelligent) Muslim I've ever come across.

(I remember his posts and e-battles with the likes of babyosisi, davidylan, TayoD, 4get_me, etc from back in the day.)

Oh and by the way, that was an excellent piece by Cyrexx.

Thanks @Purist

Those days you recalled were part of my militancy years long gone now. Much have changed since then, thankfully too! Funny enough, I still go back to read those arguments to 1) Humour myself and 2) Marvel at how far I have come.

thehomer:

What do you mean by Islamic values? By this question, I mean can the values you're referring to as Islamic values be found in other human cultures without Islam?

These values have in fact been handed down from one culture to another, and only come to be known as Islamic as a result of the specific era we find ourselves in. Let me be clear though, Not everything about a set of values is necessarily rational. Take for instance, a culture that considers the eating of frogs to be totally unacceptable, while another considers the same as exquisite delicacy. The former obviously has no rational reason for not eating frogs, except that it has now become a norm.

thehomer:

Could these practical and personal reasons be due to the environment in which you find yourself? i.e a chance of physical or social harm?

Environment and society certainly plays a role.

thehomer:

Finally, how do you resolve these conflicts? Do you surrender to a mullah or sheikh or some sort of authority figure or do you work your way to a solution by reasoning?

Hahaha @Mullah and sheikh. No, I certainly don't! If I did, I probably wouldn't hold these views I hold now. In the event of conflict, my reasoning comes out SUPREME. The fact is that my judgement (of right and wrong) precedes my religious values, so it is not very hard for me to reject an Islamic dogma that my conscience doesn't agree with. Many Muslims usually find this my position absurd, if not entirely heretical. But my defense is that if indeed you came to Islam by logic, then you are obliged to subject its teachings to logic too. Whatever is arrived at by logic should not be allowed to overwrite logic, no?

OlaAjia:

These values have in fact been handed down from one culture to another, and only come to be known as Islamic as a result of the specific era we find ourselves in. Let me be clear though, Not everything about a set of values is necessarily rational. Take for instance, a culture that considers the eating of frogs to be totally unacceptable, while another considers the same as exquisite delicacy. The former obviously has no rational reason for not eating frogs, except that it has now become a norm.

I take this to imply that your values aren't necessarily Islamic but probably supersede Islam.

OlaAjia:
Environment and society certainly plays a role.

Okay.

OlaAjia:
Hahaha @Mullah and sheikh. No, I certainly don't! If I did, I probably wouldn't hold these views I hold now. In the event of conflict, my reasoning comes out SUPREME. The fact is that my judgement (of right and wrong) precedes my religious values, so it is not very hard for me to reject an Islamic dogma that my conscience doesn't agree with. Many Muslims usually find this my position absurd, if not entirely heretical. But my defense is that if indeed you came to Islam by logic, then you are obliged to subject its teachings to logic too. Whatever is arrived at by logic should not be allowed to overwrite logic, no?

Based on your responses, would it be fair to say you're a cultural Muslim? Just as there are cultural Christians and cultural Jews? i.e people who go along with certain religious practices probably for social reasons rather than an actual belief in their supernatural efficacy?

Deep Sight:

Beautiful, thanks. Especially the last sentence.

Have you subjected the whole of your Islamic faith to exhaustive questioning?

It's an ongoing process. To be precise, I have merely scratched the surface, but even then, I still have some pretty disillusioning doubts which I fear might eventually lead me further away. I find this process interesting, tasking, somewhat uncomfortable, emotionally draining, occasionally scary, also enjoyable and most of all, genuine. It's my personal quest!

I was able to start it when I summoned up the courage to strip my mind of all fear of the afterlife. That feeling itself was liberating, but beyond that, it gave me an 'excuse' to subject my belief system to appraisal.

thehomer:

I take this to imply that your values aren't necessarily Islamic but probably supersede Islam.

A step better, they certainly precede Islam!

thehomer:

Based on your responses, would it be fair to say you're a cultural Muslim? Just as there are cultural Christians and cultural Jews? i.e people who go along with certain religious practices probably for social reasons rather than an actual belief in their supernatural efficacy?

Not quite yet! I'm in an ongoing process of 'soul searching' and sincere self and values appraisal, a transitional stage if you like. I hope to eventually find myself in a spot of truth rather than of convenience, which is what the 'cultural' tag invariably inadvertently suggests.

OlaAjia:

It's an ongoing process. To be precise, I have merely scratched the surface, but even then, I still have some pretty disillusioning doubts which I fear might eventually lead me further away. I find this process interesting, tasking, somewhat uncomfortable, emotionally draining, occasionally scary, also enjoyable and most of all, genuine. It's my personal quest!

I was able to start it when I summoned up the courage to strip my mind of all fear of the afterlife. That feeling itself was liberating, but beyond that, it gave me an 'excuse' to subject my belief system to appraisal.

All these uncannily sound a whole lot like what I experienced exactly during my own 'soul searching' and transition as well. Especially the part in red. I honestly wish you well in your quest bro.

Purist:

All these uncannily sound a whole lot like what I experienced exactly during my own 'soul searching' and transition as well. Especially the part in red. I honestly wish you well in your quest bro.

Thanks @Purist. It's not exactly the easiest thing to do, stripping one's self off the fear of afterlife. I had to convince myself that since God is a God of truth, he shouldn't be cross with me for wanting to seek out the truth as opposed to just blindly following what I have been made to believe for decades. This conviction, once it took its roots, was then strengthened by the history of Islam itself, which started as a rebel movement that challenged the social norms of the 7th century Arabia. The prophet, we are told, questioned the religious practices of them days, despite the the society's spirited attempts to get him to stop his rebellion because the "religion he was rejecting was the religion of his forefathers". This reassured me that I can certainly question the practices of my forefathers too without fear, and I've never looked back since.

#TRUESTORY

frosbel:

On the contrary common sense tells me that there is a GOD. I believed that GOD existed eons before I became a Christian.

And it is not about religion, religion is man's method of defining GOD and pleasing him , hopefully to get some kind of favour. Religion is normally associated with rites , ceremonies and all manner of activities , often done in a very rigid and legalistic way.

Belief in Christ is different, you believe in HIM, repent of your sins and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit.

To suggest that something came out of nothing is foolishness , to imply that the orderliness of the universe and all life that exists is cause by some sort of freak event is even more silly.

Most of you reject GOD because you will rather continue in your pernicious ways of wickedness , he is almost like a barrier between you and all out evil , and without his unseen restraints many will plunge into the depths of evil untold.

Harsh but true.



they do.

Atheism is based on the superstition that by some abracadabra , we all appeared out of some massive explosion that rocked the 'emptiness' that existed at the time .

Not a few atheists ( not all ) believe strongly in evolution , an ideology that associated the intelligence of the Negro closer to that of primates than of a full man, an ideology that taught the black man is not yet fully evolved.




Yahweh actually punished for the sin of child sacrifice , it's in the bible, and I will show you on demand.



Atheism is a religion of nothingness , a superstitious one at that.


I can prove that GOD exists , it's simple, the evidence is all around us !!



Atheists cannot follow any religion because they are deceived. The bible says even devils believe in GOD and tremble. Those devils must laugh atheists to scorn at the depth of their folly.

Ha ha ha. Big laugh. Did I hear you say "my common sense" ? You know, common sense is not as common as we wish it were. Your own common sense is probably the uncommon type.


Infact, that type of common sense should tell you that since the internet and the technology that makes it possible is not found in the bible, it must surely be the handwork of the devil and his many minions. Your common sense should tell you to stay away from the internet and focust on reading the bible, the a-z compendium of the gods's magnificent work.

deleted

Deep Sight:
How so. I am not religious. I don't think that being of a Deist inclination is the same thing as subscribing to religious fairy tales.

But when you start to explain your deist inclinations,you sound like you just updated those religious fairy tales with contemporary knowledge.

Deep Sight:
I have never used the phrase "unembodied brain" in my entire life.

Meant to write Unembodied mind.

Deep Sight:
But there are self-existing things -

1. You once asked me for examples, i obliged and you went mum.

No, you said something about eternity being self existent and some other weird stuff

Deep Sight:
2. You must recognise that one way or the other, you cannot escape somethings being self-existent: You are surely aware that denying the existence of a precursor self-existent God, only leads to accepting a self-existent universe. So either way, one thing or the other must be self existent. As such, you cannot refer to the concept of self-existence as a fairy tale: for then, surely, the atheist who believes in a self-existent universe, such as thehomer, thereby has a fairytale as well.

Chew on this carefully, and be more careful next time you seek to mock a concept.

Energy is said to never be created nor destroyed but can take different forms but you never used that example. If E=MC2 is true, then matter itself could be eternal, since it's only a form of energy. So the universe could as well be "self existent" and this could just be the current form of the "energy that is never created or destroyed".

The examples you gave were mind, eternity, infinite time etc. but insisted that matter couldn't be "self existent".

Deep Sight:
It should occur to you that the atheistic notion that nothing arose from nothing and by nothing and for no purpose spawned the universe, is far more outlandish than the worst religious fairy tales.

I expect better from you than to quote this ridiculous christian meme.

OlaAjia:

Thanks @Purist. It's not exactly the easiest thing to do, stripping one's self off the fear of afterlife. I had to convince myself that since God is a God of truth, he shouldn't be cross with me for wanting to seek out the truth as opposed to just blindly following what I have been made to believe for decades. This conviction, once it took its roots, was then strengthened by the history of Islam itself, which started as a rebel movement that challenged the social norms of the 7th century Arabia. The prophet, we are told, questioned the religious practices of them days, despite the the society's spirited attempts to get him to stop his rebellion because the[b] "religion he was rejecting was the religion of his forefathers"[/b]. This reassured me that I can certainly question the practices of my forefathers too without fear, and I've never looked back since.

#TRUESTORY

Wow! I remember many years ago thinking that if God is Great and True and Loving then he would understand come judgement day if I told him I didn't believe certain aspects of religion because they honestly seemed nonsensical to me. Surely he couldn't be angry with me for using my intelligence. Not if I was being honest.

I also remember once many years ago my sister had gone to an aladura church in London and she told me Dad and my dad disapproved immensely. He said that it wasn't our way. That was the first time it struck me how 'tribal' religion was. There is a strong sense of 'us' and 'them' in many religions. He often mentioned staying within the way of our foreparents But then it struck me that the only reason that we are christians today is precisely because my grandparents did NOT stay within the way of their foreparents.

Martian:

But when you start to explain your deist inclinations,you sound like you just updated those religious fairy tales with contemporary knowledge.

Not so: the mere fact that you reject the existence of a precursor creator does not render it a fantasy. Indeed your rejection, being against the known laws of science, is more in the realm of fairies with tails.

Meant to write Unembodied mind.

You see, obviously I knew this. But I chose to respond the way I did exactly to show that you guys always conflate the brain and the mind. Not that i'm about to get into that one right now with a hardened materialist such as your self. I will only ask you to reflect on whether automatic functions of the brain such as blood circulation or the release of select cells are mental activities of a conscious mind. And if thoughts and ideas are physical matter.

No, you said something about eternity being self existent and some other weird stuff

O, so you created eternity. Interesting.

Energy is said to never be created nor destroyed but can take different forms but you never used that example. If E=MC2 is true, then matter itself could be eternal, since it's only a form of energy. So the universe could as well be "self existent" and this could just be the current form of the "energy that is never created or destroyed".

The point remains that since this is the case, you yourself have accepted that somethings may be self-existent - you thus cannot scoff at the term.

The thread talks about the ridiculous nature of religious fairy tales. You then claimed that some of my beliefs may be seen the same way: and in so doing you mentioned my belief that somethings are self-existent. You cannot do that because you yourself regard the universe and energy as self-existent and possibly eternal. As such, you have no leg on which to stand.

The examples you gave were mind, eternity, infinite time etc. but insisted that matter couldn't be "self existent".

Yes because it is mutable. But I know I may not live to see the day that you grasp this very simple point which I have repeated a gazillion times.

I expect better from you than to quote this ridiculous christian meme.

Don't expect better from me: that is the summary of the foolishness of atheism.

^^^^
lol. Ok professor, I'll respond to your foolishness later.

musKeeto:
Read some of Frosbels latest threads. That guy is heading towards agnosticism.. he may not accept it, but thats how my journey to 'religion freedom' began..
You start questioning hell, begin to accomodate opposing views, next REASON tells you to be free..

If you are trying to separate belief in God from religion then 'fine and good', but if you are lumping the two together and trying to convince anyone that who questions religion questions the reality of God, as can be inferred from the above comment, then you got it wrong. Remember that religion, which is man's ways of worshipping God and obeying His perceived instructions may be wrongly 'constructed; as is clear from the history of crimes committed in the name of God through religious concepts. God is different from religion.

OlaAjia:

A step better, they certainly precede Islam!

Okay.

OlaAjia:
Not quite yet! I'm in an ongoing process of 'soul searching' and sincere self and values appraisal, a transitional stage if you like. I hope to eventually find myself in a spot of truth rather than of convenience, which is what the 'cultural' tag invariably inadvertently suggests.

Alright then. Take your time and perform your analysis thoroughly.

rawtruth:

If you are trying to separate belief in God from religion then 'fine and good', but if you are lumping the two together and trying to convince anyone that who questions religion questions the reality of God, as can be inferred from the above comment, then you got it wrong. Remember that religion, which is man's ways of worshipping God and obeying His perceived instructions may be wrongly 'constructed; as is clear from the history of crimes committed in the name of God through religious concepts. God is different from religion.

Thanks I do realise that. Maybe you should check up the meaning of agnosticism.
And note: I said 'religion freedom' not 'God freedom'

musKeeto:
Thanks I do realise that. Maybe you should check up the meaning of agnosticism.
And note: I said 'religion freedom' not 'God freedom'

Your last sentence has cleared my 'confusion'.

Missed this jibe at me earlier. To rectify it, consider my response.

Deep Sight:

. . . .

2. You must recognise that one way or the other, you cannot escape somethings being self-existent: You are surely aware that denying the existence of a precursor self-existent God, only leads to accepting a self-existent universe. So either way, one thing or the other must be self existent. As such, you cannot refer to the concept of self-existence as a fairy tale: for then, surely, the atheist who believes in a self-existent universe, such as thehomer, thereby has a fairytale as well.

Chew on this carefully, and be more careful next time you seek to mock a concept.

Deep Sight you're back again with your accusations. How is the idea of a self existent universe a fairy tale if the idea of a self existent God is to be tenable? Please can you tell me if you think energy is eternal or not?

Deep Sight:
It should occur to you that the atheistic notion that nothing arose from nothing and by nothing and for no purpose spawned the universe, is far more outlandish than the worst religious fairy tales.

First, you may realize that this isn't what all atheists say neither is it what I say.
Secondly, you're demonstrating your emotional need for some sort of cosmic purpose without presenting the evidence supporting your case. If it turns out that the universe has no cosmic purpose or that its purpose was simply to arrive at 42, would that bother you?