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Stats: 1,702,263 members, 3,237,854 topics. Date: Monday, 05 December 2016 at 09:33 AM
|Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by LagosShia: 1:09pm On Jun 24, 2012|
i decided to open this thread distinctively because the topic stands out on its own from the thread i initially post the info.
Introduction by LagosShia:
lest an hypocrite denies or question the legitimacy of talking about numerology in the Quran,the Sunnis are fond of that all the time and i in particular have no objection and i am impressed by their effort.in fact when one ponders upon the Holy Quran,the instances are too many and wonderful that we can only see this reality as a Quranic miracle based on divine perfection and signs.for instance,we observe the following (few instances among many more) in the Holy Quran:
-Day (yawm)" is repeated 365 times in singular form, while its plural and dual forms "days (ayyam and yawmayn)" together are repeated 30 times. The number of repetitions of the word "month" (shahar) is 12.
-The word "satan" (shaitan) is used in the Qur'an 88 times, as is the word "angels" (malaika).
-The word faith (iman) (without genitive) is repeated 25 times throughout the Qur'an as is also the word infidelity (kufr).
-The words "paradise" and "hell" are each repeated 77 times.
-The words "man" and "woman" are also employed equally: 23 times.
now,even on nairaland,our dear friends have gone a step further to create threads on the mathematical or numerological make-up of the Holy Quran.and thankfully enough,even our dear friend Vedaxcool had a part in it.not only that,he was full of boast and joy challenging the atheist in that thread and taunting him.the thread was started by "tbaba1234":
"Another Quranic Coincidence?? SubhanAllah!":
i think i have so far so good made by case for what i am going to present.
Imamate In Quranic Numerology
-how many times the word "imam" appears in the Holy Quran? 12 times,the number of the 12 holy Imams and successors of the Prophet (sa)!!! is this another Quranic coincident or a miracle?
Volume 9, Book 89, Number 329:
Narrated Jabir bin Samura:
I heard the Prophet saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers (who will rule all the Islamic world)." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."
Book 020, Number 4477:
It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I joined the company of the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) with my father and I heard him say: This Caliphate will not end until there have been twelve Caliphs among them. The narrator said: Then he (the Holy Prophet) said something that I could not follow. I said to my father: What did he say? He said: He has said: All of them will be from the Quraish.
the word "imam" appears in the following places in the Holy Quran:
-how many times the word "infallible"(is'ma) appears in the Quran?
it appears 13 times!!! the 12 Imams (as) in addition to Sayyida Fatima (as) who is also believed to have "is'ma" are 13 individuals.
in verse 33:33,we are told of the sinless and pure nature of the Ahlul-Bayt (as):
"Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification".
the verses where the word "infallible" appears are:
4:146;5:67;10:27;40:33;3:101;3:103;11:43 (twice in the same ayah);60:10;4:175;12:32;33:17;22:78
-How many times is the word "Kisa" (cloak) mentioned the Holy Quran? the word "cloak" is in reference to the "hadith of the cloak".the people mentioned in the hadith of the cloak or "hadith al-Kisa" are five people:Prophet Muhammad,Imam Ali,Sayyida Fatima and Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain (as).these were the 5 members of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) living as of the time of the Prophet (sa) and the descent of the verse 33:33 confirming the purified state of the Ahlul-Bayt (as).
in the following places,the word "Kisa" appears five times in the Holy Quran:
a narration of Hadith al-Kisa with English subtitles:
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by LagosShia: 1:10pm On Jun 24, 2012|
the above details and instances given in my above post on Quranic numerology was based on a study performed by an Egyptian scholar,Dr.Majdi Wehbi as-Shafi'e.
Holy Quran 47:24
[size=14pt]"Will they not then ponder upon the Qur'an or are there locks upon their hearts?"[/size]
and here is an image of his work (in arabic) on numerology and imamate in the Holy Quran (see attached image):
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by LagosShia: 1:35pm On Jun 24, 2012|
"THE QURAN AND IMAMATE":
and here is an extensive and comprehensive research:
"The Doctrine of Imamate from the Qur'an":
the below is from nairaland:
"the Truth About The 12 Imams In Islam As Foretold By The Prophet Muhammad (sa)":
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by LagosShia: 1:39pm On Jun 24, 2012|
Sunni Apologist,Shabbir Ally, Cites Quranic Numerology and Its Wonders As One of The Reasons He Remains Muslim:
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by tintingz(m): 2:31pm On Jun 24, 2012|
Good job bro, buh i dont really support d sunni and shia tin, it some how create hatred to each other am not against it oh, i call myself a muslim i dont tagg sunni or shia to it cuz almighty Allah only call us Muslims.
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by LagosShia: 2:42pm On Jun 24, 2012|
tintingz: Good job bro, buh i dont really support d sunni and shia tin, it some how create hatred to each other am not against it oh, i call myself a muslim i dont tagg sunni or shia to it cuz almighty Allah only call us Muslims.
i have no doubt we are Muslims.and i also hope others do not hate because i love you all.
as for being a Shia,it does not conflict with being Muslim,but in fact is the essence of being Muslim.the Prophet (sa) called the loyal supporters of Imam Ali (as) "Shia of Ali".Almighty Allah (swt) in the Holy Quran called Ibrahim (as) a "Shia" (partisan/follower) of Noah (as).
please read these two articles:
"The Term "Shia" in Quran and Hadith":
"Is Being a Member of a Party ("shia" ) Forbidden in Islam?":
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by Cheers01: 3:00pm On Jun 24, 2012|
Hi, this is locigboy here with another account!
I debunked Tbaba on his Quranic coincidence and now you are coming here with you number miracles in the Quran?
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by tintingz(m): 3:02pm On Jun 24, 2012|
LagosShia:thanks for that, what about the sunni, do they have their verses in the Quran that claim to be a branch?
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by Cheers01: 3:05pm On Jun 24, 2012|
Cheers01: Hi, this is locigboy here with another account!
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by LagosShia: 3:12pm On Jun 24, 2012|
tintingz: thanks for that, what about the sunni, do they have their verses in the Quran that claim to be a branch?
they should answer for themselves.
but the name itself "ahlus-sunnah wal ja'mah" (referred to as sunnis for short) does not appear in the Quran and was not spoken of by the Prophet (sa).and that is called a bid'ah (an innovation).hint:it was someone called Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan that gave them their name!!!
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by LagosShia: 3:25pm On Jun 24, 2012|
you cannot debunk it.watch the video where Shabbir Ally gave a good explanation of why he believes in its (Quran numerology) significance.you cannot say you have destroyed another man's house because you came to make a replica of it.it just doesn't make sense especially when you take into consideration factors that existed and the complexity of the finding in the Quran and how wide ranging it is.
the way these things appear in the Quran is very difficult for anyone to believe they are coincidence or they were planned at a time where there was no computer to decode or program or take count (on many subjects) to fit the intended message.take for instance:in the Quran Jesus (as) is likened to Adam (as).both their names appear 25 times in the Quran.there are too many instances.and keep in mind this is only one aspect of how wonderful the Quran is in terms of wonderful signs and knowledge unknown to people back then.perhaps,even today there are still things we have not come to their realization yet contained in the Holy Quran.a few hundred years ago we did not have the knowledge we have now of the Quran.also,if not for the help computers give us to decode the codes and repetitions and mathematical formulas in the Holy Quran,we could have still being in the dark on these issues.
anyways,i do not intend to drift from the topic and argue.this topic in particular was made for my Sunni brothers.they preach about the Quran and how wonderful it is and want others to marvel at it while there is an aspect (imamate) that is part of the wonders we should also marvel at but they turn a blind eye on.what do you call that in all honesty?
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by Cheers01: 4:07pm On Jun 24, 2012|
What if I could show you that some of these coincidences are not true?
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by LagosShia: 4:26pm On Jun 24, 2012|
this is a big claim you have made which you are bound to fail.
but please do show me.
you can also prove to me that when the verses were being revealed and the words memorized and written,Muhammad (sa) was taking stock of how many times so many times appear and also writing codes on how to reveal certain verses and multiply them in a particular fashion.hmmmm.....wait a minute!!!! may Muhammad (sa) had a computer in the 7th century? that could be the reason for these "coincidences".but wait,isn't having a computer in the 7th century another miracle? or may Muhammad (sa) was just the best genius humanity have ever known?
please you really need to show me!!!i'm totally lost and confused!
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by Cheers01: 4:53pm On Jun 24, 2012|
We are making the assumptions that the number of verses in the koran in Tbaba's computation is correct. What about the satanic verses? Were they added?
Have you personally counted the number of times that "days" are written in the Koran? Were words from the satanic verses used?
Sorry but, a skeptic always finds it hard to believe miracles
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by LagosShia: 5:04pm On Jun 24, 2012|
you are really funny.i thought you got some intellectually sound trick or challenge to make.
i didn't expect you can be this ridiculous.
first,i believe in Quranic verses and not satanic verses.
secondly,i am Shia and in all our books of hadiths,the so called "satanic verses" known as "hadith al-gharaniq" is not found.it is only found in a sunni hadith book.
thirdly,sunnis themselves reject the hadith al-gharaniq.
fourthly,i'd present you with the analysis of a high ranking Shia scholar who examined that Sunni hadith and found it to be internally and externally contradictory and therefore false.
(please see question 43 in the below link;scroll down on the left bar)
43. What is the Myth of Gharaniq or ‘The Satanic Verses’?
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by Cheers01: 5:32pm On Jun 24, 2012|
From what I read, the satanic verses were once in the Quran. Is that not true?
Also, I have read that different versions of the Quran have different numbering systems. Is that not true?
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by ymozay: 6:54pm On Jun 24, 2012|
i,m not in any way against this discovery,but its the same numerology that the submitters are using to confirm the messengerhood of rashad khaifa using quran 74:30(over it are 19),they came up with so many claim dat everything in the quran is a multiple of 19,building on this 19 theory to even remove the last 2 verses from suratul tauba,dt this last 2 verses were smuhgled in2 the quran after d death of d prophet,dey remove dis verses because if u dont remove this verses d 19 theory dont hold.they counted and manupulated so many things im d quran 4 19 theory 2 hold.
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by LagosShia: 7:40pm On Jun 24, 2012|
there are no versions of the Quran.there are translations.and even if the Quran is arranged in chronological order and not in recitation order starting with al-Fatiha,the number of words and verses in the Quran does not change.
besides,i only cited tbaba's thread to give a clear idea based on what i am talking.it is not meant to discuss tbaba's thread.
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by LagosShia: 7:44pm On Jun 24, 2012|
ymozay: i,m not in any way against this discovery,but its the same numerology that the submitters are using to confirm the messengerhood of rashad khaifa using quran 74:30(over it are 19),they came up with so many claim dat everything in the quran is a multiple of 19,building on this 19 theory to even remove the last 2 verses from suratul tauba,dt this last 2 verses were smuhgled in2 the quran after d death of d prophet,dey remove dis verses because if u dont remove this verses d 19 theory dont hold.they counted and manupulated so many things im d quran 4 19 theory 2 hold.
there is no harm in observing the pattern,signs,wonders and numerology of the Quran.however,the problem comes in as in the case of Rashad Khalifa you mentioned who wants to edit the Quran to fit his own imagined theory.if the Quran or its make-up does not support a particular pattern or code,it means that is an hypothesis that is non-existent from the Quranic point.therefore anyone who forces his ideas into the Quran is not following Quranic numerology or what exists in the Quran.rather he is bringing from his own head and imaginations to impose upon the Quran.that was the case of Rashad Khalifa who had to minus a verse or two from chapter 12,Surat Yusuf.
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by Cheers01: 11:56pm On Jun 24, 2012|
Why are you lying about your religion? I give up. Information on satatnic verses is all over the internet. It is even well referenced on wikipedia, yet you lie.
While I am not sure about the numbering of the Quran, I would not be surprised if you're lying about it. I will find out.
Taqiyya is a shameful thing when Dawah is concerned.
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by LagosShia: 12:03am On Jun 25, 2012|
what am i lying about? that the hadith al-gharaniq is not found in any Shia book of hadith?that sunnis reject it? that upon analysis even by a Shia scholar that got no business with the hadith,he found many flaws in it?
you are an interesting and funny person.do you know what is taqiyyah?taqiyyah is only permissible if my life is in danger.not when talking to you.LOL
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by LagosShia: 10:53am On Jun 26, 2012|
Cheers01: Hi, this is locigboy here with another account!
for future reference let me post the below link of the thread you are being exposed:
it does not look like you even debunked tbaba and vedaxcool.i saw you could only come up with 10 chapters numbered from 1-10.even so,the argument there continues.please next time so that you sound credible do not make claims that everyone cannot observe.
the miraculous aspect in what tbaba presented is not the impossibility to use 5 days to come up with a smaller replica of 10 presumed chapters with their odd and even balance.it is coming up with 114 chapters with such a balance and doing that 1400 years ago,where even books in one piece did not exist.also these patterns existing in the Quran for you to ponder upon are numerous.
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by Cheers01: 12:37pm On Jun 26, 2012|
Look, as a former christian, numerology is something we have thrown away in christiany. Been there, done that. Numerology is just a feeble attempt to justify the claim of the divine nature of holy books.
What if the people who numbered the koran had a reason to number the chapters and verses in a particular way? Furthermore, the fact that some chapters/verses are no more in the Quran renders most of your numerology wrong.
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by LagosShia: 12:35am On Jul 01, 2012|
please see picture attached below.
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by Cheers01: 12:55am On Jul 01, 2012|
Lol.....which version of the Quran did they use?
Also, unless the put the verses in which the words are mentioned so that we can check and count, I remain skeptical of these claims. Christianity has tried numerology years before islam.
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by LagosShia: 10:00am On Jul 01, 2012|
Cheers01:how many "versions" have you heard of and seen? ive told you there are no versions as there are bible versions.there are Quran translations and not versions.
you can do that yourself.no one is stopping you.and please do not derail my thread.from the beginning this thread isn't meant for non-muslims.so appreciate the tolerance shown to you.
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by Cheers01: 10:15am On Jul 01, 2012|
LagosShia:I am not derailing the thread if I am talking about the subject matter- Quran and numerology. Furthermore, dont you feel ashamed when you can out-rightly say that tolerance is something I should "appreciate" as if tolerance is special and should not be a normal thing in life. You never indicated that the thread was for muslims alone. Furthermore, in the original post you even talked about hyporcites (doubters). I am a doubter.
-Quran without satanic verses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_Verses
-Quran with different numbering http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/numbers.html
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by LagosShia: 12:51pm On Jul 01, 2012|
Cheers01:my friend,this thread was created with the obvious reason to engage Sunnis especially the ones who have being talking numerology.
the "satanic verses" is put to rest and a myth.
differnt numbering,like arranging the Quran chapters in the order of revelation and not recitation does not at all affect numerology and the number of times words are repeated and their significance.
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by Cheers01: 10:10am On Jul 02, 2012|
Satanic verses is not a myth.
Different numberings and different translations render yor numerology invalid. The number of times a word appears can also be irrelevant as in Arabic, words can mean different things in different situations. Thanks to Hamza Tzortis and the wife beating quote in the Quran, I lerntthat.
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by LagosShia: 12:28pm On Jul 02, 2012|
regardless of what a word means in any context,it appearance as a word is what counts in this our own context (numerology).we are not looking into meanings but count.it would do you better to take in regard the context when you talk about "wife beating" and when your likes attempt to twist Quranic words and their meanings.
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by Cheers01: 12:48pm On Jul 02, 2012|
Look, at the end of the day, these Quranic miracles remain unproven, unless the verses that these words are mentioned are cite for everyone to count. Basic commonsense
|Re: Quranic Miracle: Imamate And Numerology by LagosShia: 6:45pm On Jul 02, 2012|
when i opened this thread i presented the chapters and verses where certain words can be found for all to verify.
if you have doubt,it is your duty to clear your doubt.go ahead and research.and if you find any inconsistency,you can present it against me.
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