Nairaland Forum

Its a pity this thread has to run these number of pages discussing what is not an issue at all

Whether a Christian lady should wear trousers or use make up - its a disaster. It is biblical illiteracy at its maximum

Now I understand why these guys cannot comprehend the issue of where the tithe occupies in today's dispensation. If U can't understand ABC, how do comprehend complicated doctrinal issues.

All I see MostHigh; Olaadegbu, Alexeleo and those who support them say here is to parrot what they were taught in church. Not bc they understand the bible for themselves

Save your invective bc this thread is not worth a look again... If I was the moderator I would have ended the discuss long time ago...

Nonsense!

The above are sound scriptural reasons for not tithing today

Another evidence that we can consider are the fruits the tithe is bearing

1. A re-enactment of the priesthood order but now called Men of God today

2. Lazy pastorate: men abandoning legitimate career and work to enter 'ministry' that must be sustained by tithe

3. The return of the cathedrals and large church organizations that must be sustained by tithes to the detriment of other cogent issues, like looking after the weak

4. Ostentatious lifestyle of church leaders, something that is totally foreign to the NT

5. The prosperity gospel: The gospel of blessing. Seeking God hand and not his face.

6. Diminishing the gospel of grace and reducing the power of that gospel in men heart

7. Leading to nations sold to lies and falsehood; with prophets leading a nation astray.

8. Tithe blinds a people to true giving and legalize a legal system

9. Return to legalism

10. Fall from grace

You can make your own list

Neo-JUDAIZERS un-redeemable. Ever learning and not able to come to the knowledge of the truth

*Un-follows thread*

OLAADEGBU:

If you wouldn't watch or couldn't watch the videoclips and link I posted then address my response to seggegs before you start raising your own objections.

Doctrines according to videos. Answer the man's objections raised from the bible and stop this watch this; watch that. Let us base our discuss on the more sure word of prophecy: the bible and not day dreamings

Image123:

Tithes and offering were given before the law. This is a fact you cannot remove from the Word.

Circumcision was also giving before the law; with a direct commandement from God to Abraham (unlike tithe) in Genesis 17, why did the Apostle Paul labor hard to show that it has gone with the law

Tithes and offering are under the giving blanket.

What blanket? Who said it was cold? That something is giving does not mean that it is acceptable to God. Check your bible, motive and scriptural standards determine if what we do in the NT is acceptable to God.

There is still no scripture or apostle that says we should not give tithes and offerings.

There is still no scripture by the apostles that say we give tithes. Period. But there are legion of scriptures that shows that the Mosaic tithes has been abolished along with the levithical rights, unless, ofcourse, you refuse to see them.

You are on your own.

One with God is majority: I am content that way

Image123:
Tithes and offering were given before the law. This is a fact you cannot remove from the Word.
Tithes and offering are under the giving blanket.
There is still no scripture or apostle that says we should not give tithes and offerings.
You are on your own.

This is not the story... It is another story

shdemidemi:
Does that make this particular statement of false?

I know know O

Whatever the guys views of fornication, the statement is perfect. See how he cannot distinguish the messenger from the message

Bidam:

What is your yard stick for measuring perfection?

Holiness.

FAILURE!!!!!!!

Holiness is NOT a measure of perfection. It may be YOURS but it is not the bible's. There is such a things as the righteosness of God, perfect righteosness, that can only be obtained by imputation, by faith.

No wonder you bandy the law of Moses around and potray some filthy thing called holiness. Hebrew 12:14 - without holiness no man shall see the Lord. Read it well, it is not saying holiness will earn God's kingdom; it is saying the showing of true perfection, obtained by faith, is holy living. No more, no less...

Don't even fool yourself... why are my even wasting my time with you, you kuku will not hear!

Pastor Kun:

Story!

I would like to hear the story. Because I cannot understand why Bidam believes tithes is of the law but still says it remains a "pricinple"; what principle? Like, same way the law of Moses say do not kill; and the law of God in our hearts says do not Kill, because it would not be compatible with love. Now how does the law of Moses which command tithing to Levites that had no inheritance, and needed it for their sustenance equal pay tithe in church so that ministers can have money to run church? When the NT has shown more than enough scriptures on how church must be financed? And when these discourses where going on in 2Corinthians 7-9; 1Corinthians 9; all the pastoral epistles; Paul's admonition in Acts 20 that it is more blessed to give than to receive; and Hebrew 13 that says God is pleased with sacrificial giving (that about all I can remember in NT giving); how do all of them equate to Tithing today? Even the Hebrew 7 scripture that discussed tithes in the NT was simply talking about the supremacy of Jesus' priesthood to that of Aaron, that was sustained with tithe. And since Aaron's priesthood was abolished, the means of sustaining it, the tithe, is done away with also. There is no other way to interprete that scripture without reading our prejudices into it. And, when the NT teaches doctrine or practise, it is explicit about it; it does not teach something and then expect us to see it in another light. Those who choose to get revelations from Hebrew 7 to tithe are finding revelations to support their greed and fraud.

So, Bidam, we await your story...

The gospel is everything.

Although this thread is directed at Shdemidemi, I wish to add to it and ofcourse, my views are subject to censore.

Before I get there, let's understand why the gospel must be understood and truly proclaimed. It is because there is the danger of another gospel being proclaimed in its place.

Romans 1:16,17

Rom 1:16 ¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

shows us that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, for the Jews first and then for the gentiles. In that liberating scripture, that formed the foundation of the 16th century Reformation. We have:

1. Salvation. In the gospel there is salvation both from the ills of this life and the one to come - eternal damanation. Then in the gospel we have the power of God. This power is sufficient because it is of God. That power is able to keep safe. Hebrew talks about that power saving us to the utermost. Jesus in Johnt 6 talks about that power being able to draw men to God and being able to keep them to the end. Peter talks about Christians being "kept by the power of God". That power is able to offer eternal security to anyone who believes the gospel. It is demeaning to Jesus who saves to say that those he saved can loose their salvation.

2. Jew and Gentiles: The gospel was revealed to the Jews first. But it was later extended to the gentiles. The problem with this so called extension is the fact that the gospel has been plaqued by the influence of Judaism from the beginning. So that despite God's vision to Peter to show that all that the law considered defiled has become undefiled in the gospel via the blood of Jesus, people confused the law with the gospel of grace, even up to this time and on NL also. And so we have the challenge of those who pay tithe, keep sabbath and cover their hair in church, all in a bid to keep up with the law, although admitting to be under grace. The gospel came to the Jews first, then the gentiles. The gospel is not a reformation of Judaism, it is the gospel - good news from God, sufficient in itself. It is not new wine in old wine skin, it is new wine in new wine skin; that is the only way the gospel can be properly preserved.

3. Righteousness by Faith In the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed and inputed to those who believe. It is God's rightteousness and not ours. It is by faith and not by works; it is by grace that it might not be by works. The benefits of the gospel are profound but will come to us only by faith. The Just will live by faith; and will continue from faith to faith. Unfortunately the kind of righteousness many advocate are men's righteousness, that is filthy before God. God's standard of righteousness is different: In it men may see God's man as a liar or a war-monger, Abraham, God sees him as a man of faith, a friend of God, etc. In men's righteousness, we think a man is a murderer or an adulterer, God sees him as a man after his own heart - David. Thus is the righteousness of God seen in men. It is not what a man can glory in; it is what only God can testify of. We await this righteousness also by faith and when it comes we cannot glory in it because we will forever see ourselves as debtors to God's manifold grace shown forth to filthy sinners like ourselves.

That in a nutshell, folks is the gospel and all that the gospel encompasses.

Cheers.

okeyxyz:

You do realize that the enlarged texts refers to the law. It is by following the Laws of Moses that we become sinners, Making the law the power of sin.

So Jesus's death(ie: death of the law; because he became the personification of this law) sets us free, completely(not partially), from the Laws of Moses; including all it's commandments and definitions. We are now free to partake and use all things that the Law barred us from. GBAM!!!

I second this

Image123:
Thanks voltron, i enjoyed the drumming around. You have earned three points. Congrats.

You are welcome.

Thank U Seun for sharing your position with us on religion. Like your Dad, many of us will not be able to answer your questions too... The mind that birth nairaland certainly must be offered something greater than mere faith and religion to practise as an object of devotion.

That is why I believe atheists are closer to the true God than many religious people.

I know those who espouse the theory that religion is the worst thing that has happened to humanity and that it is the creation of Satan. I agree with them.

Nevertheless I am religious. Why? Because the definition of the faith I practise will be termed religious in the secular dictionary, although I do not believe I am religious in that sense.

I believe in Jesus Christ. The revealed person of the tri-une God. Because he is revealed I can only trust that He reveals himself to Seun and others one way or the other.

Until then, the atheists will win every debate with religious people. That is why I don't try them...

lol!!!

I just read this after ur rferalll from that thread where Aribisala was castigation Paul

Like U rightly pointed out: his error is quoting the Arose out of context to justify a lame theses.

Well done.

[quote
author=In4matic]But, that does not answer the questions posed. Lets not
forget femi came up with undisputable facts upon facts.

And after seeking the opinions of bible scholars the conclusion reached
was that Paul's writings were letters of advice concerning specific
issues in particular locations. Not to be misconstrued as gospel. Do you
agree sir?[/quote]

That article posed no question. It is the opinion of a demented mind. Paul's letters were not mere advice, they are ETERNAL TRUTHS!

Aribisala has made no point here. His theses on 'Any Pastor that Collects Tithes Is A Thief and A Robber' may be excellent but the above is pure nonsense

To deny Paul is to deny that scripture is Inspired by God and that is to deny Christ, God's Word...

Something happened to me yesterday which was a personal confirmation that God Himself has been leading on the path on tithing. Farmafric, is a NLander. I just discovered he is my long time friend from our University days. He called to tell me he had been reading my post on tithing and that he not only agrees with me but had stopped tithing too.

Now this friend of mine is a farmer. He had practised overseas and while there he not only tithed, he gave firstfruits - all to no business breakthrough.

Now both of us independently discovered this issue. Just as we discovered the falsehood in prosperity teaching in our University days together. What further proof that the Spirit is one.

Tithing is dead and buried and like Christemmbassey said here 'the fly wey dey follow dead body, go enter grave with am'. Tithing is a perfect example of making void the grace of God; it is falling from grace; Galatians 5:3-5.

And it is exhilarating to know that more and more people are being removed from its bondage

Thanks ikemofepo, I will check it up.

I maintain that the challenge with the tithe is the fruits its bearing in Christendom. In addition to what ikemofepo has said I believe Jesus talking about putting new wine in old wine skin was with reference to Judaizers who will confuse law with grace after his death.

Also Jesus, Paul and Stephen, three leading grace exponent where accused of preaching about abolishing the law by the Jews. The truth is the gospel of grace does emphasise the end of the law, it is just that for Jesus he spoke of what was to come but Paul and Stephen spoke of what was already.

Seun: I come from a Christian family. All the members of my
family are Christians - except for my stubborn self, who left faith
after it failed him.

Do U mind sir shedding some light on how the failure came about.

For me, I would have thought that Africa's most successful blogger will see that Providence has been good to him and have a reason to believe and give thanks to God.

Farmafric: We deserve the President we got! SIMPLE. How can those guys say what they said? the country is burning and some are partying? We are so tribalistic, unobjective and senseless in this country! i voted for Jonathan because I thought , he is an intellectual but he disgraced me! I will rather vote for the leader of Boko Haram than vote for GEJ again!

Although I did not vote gej, I second this motion

ikemofepo:

Funny how people try hard to keep the Law. And selectively at that. Most christians don't study the scriptures but love to argue what's in their heads and what their pastors told them. I'm glad the greedy tithing remained until now. I'm sure God just looked on at how the Old Covenant slipped into the new. Greedy and selfish christians would hardly give anything save the tithe! And if that is how they're forced to give all well and good. I have read so much on this blog. There are two sides, people that talk out of knowledge, and people that talk as mouth pieces to their pastors

You said u were gonna upload a book on tithe. I am waiting for it.

So these laws of prosperity, when where they instituted? We know when Moses got his own; we know with the advent of Christ came the Law of Spirit of Life, when then where the laws of prosperity instituted?

Or could they be new generational? Espoused by Oyedepo, Sam Adeyemi and the other false gospellers.

My guy if U no get work make U vamoose commot for these place. You think you are in your business centre/church, selling gospel to the highest bidder?

mtcshew...

@Image

Let me refresh your memory: Someone had advertised a meeting that was gonna discuss tithing on this forum. Kun then gave briefing on how d meeting went and mentioned that it was well attended with about 24 people in attendance.

Image responded to this by saying the organizers should have gotten Bonkke to pull crowd for them. JeSoul corrected that notion by quoting where 2 or 3 are gathered... and Image was shut up until now.

I do not know what conscience has been defiled by relating this. I should ask how you can live with your own conscience by quoting someone wrongly: Kun never said 'tens of thousands' attended: he was truthful enough to give the number in attendance which U tried to ridicule to your shame. You are the ones who glory in numbers and this is the more reason the doctrine you espouse is not only false but also a lie, as you have no qualms lying about something written in black and white.

[quote
author=Bidam]the law of moses and the commandments are different.Go
back and read it again..the bible even differentiated them.[/quote]

[quote
author=Bidam]the law of moses and the commandments are different.Go
back and read it again..the bible even differentiated them.[/quote]

Bidam
That write up said it all. The contention has been on distinguishing what Moses law is and that write up referred us to the 2Corinthians 3 scripture that said the law written on the tablets were being done away with: alwaystrue will say there was Law of God and Law of Moses but this write up shows they are one and the same.

If this doesn't convince U, U are beyond redemption or worse still, it confirms Pastor Kun's accusation that U know the truth but simply choose the path of deception bc it affords U opportunity to defraud people.

Luluosas

Have U realized that most Atheist remain so and even hardened bc we Christians have refused to live up to the standard of the gospel? We preach one thing, and do another? How many people have U seen saved and remained so bc they heard a message about hell? Fear breeds torment: that is what the bible teaches. It is God's love expressed in the gospel and shown in the lives of Jesus followers that win true converts.

You and Olaadegbu come here with tales unending about hell, is that the gospel? Gospel is good news. Is hell good news?

And by the way the tales of hell have been debunked by people have NDE's: Near Death Experiences. If U doubt those experiences, others have a right to doubt your own tales.

Hell was made for Satan and his cohorts. Christ has died for men's sins. If atheists reject this message the solution is not to trust them out to themselves but to look for more creative ways to pass the message in love and not all these hell mongering

Just my little bit...

[quote
author=Image123]
i remember the 20something that attended your crusade last year phantom
kun, and how folks tried to console you with that two or three are
gathered together verse.[/quote]


I thought that point Jesoul raised was a very valid one: I didn't know however that it hit such a sore point in you that it has remained indelible in ur memory.

Yes God has never gloried or worked with numbers; so that there was a bit over 20 people in that meeting does not make it a failure. What is failing us as a nation and what is a failure is this country recording the largest gathering of believers in the world and still the most corrupt and most backward. The more reason why the doctrines these crowd pullers must be x-rayed, especially the very fraudulent tithe.

So to re-iterate the point made: where two or three are gathered in His name there he is. while we are @ this, we should also ask in what name these crowded churches gather: in the name of TITHE?

My friend Alexeleo will not want me to label all tithe collecting churches prosperity gospellers. He says I should package my message so that it will be sell able. The only response to this packaging doctrine is that it has no biblical foundation: sound doctrine is sometimes an offence to the hearers.

But let me define the prosperity gospeller: Anyone who undermines the doctrine of grace - who is ignorant of the unsearchable riches of Christ but who seeks to replace this gospel with man-made doctrines be it confusing grace mixed with law - leading to seeking blessing-at-all-cost-gospel or those who major on the law leading to a holiness movement (and legalism) - a bid 'to make heaven'

The doctrine of grace answers these two extremes by 1. We are blessed already; Eph 1:3, and not to seek blessings. 2. We have Christ righteousness and a sure hope in heaven and so we don't seek to make it.

So I am forced to expand on these grace doctrine but constrained by space.

My response here will be @ Joaagbaje

1. Biblical interpretations cannot be adequately done with contemporary editions like the message. Even KJV has its error despite being the best translation ever. Accurate translation requires referral to original Greek and Hebrew, using good concordance.

2. The Romans 14. scripture would have applied to the dispute on tithing but for the ends that many have subjected tithing to. I follow Pastor Kun here: no one condemns tithe giving; what is condemned is the compulsion place on it; the wrong use of church finances many subject tithe to; the extravagance; the proliferation of churches. etc. Point is, will there be the liberty to do all these if tithes were not payed? Thus the need to locate the true biblical tithe that has been found to be gone with Moses ordinances and laws. Tithe, today, is not a small issue of doctrine, its the foundation of many churches. It need to be removed that the true foundation be unearthed: which Christ the Lord.

uncle2010: Brethren, do you pay tithe on borrowed money.

The tithe question will continually shur up questions like this and we find them endless on nairaland.

Do You pay tithe on borrowed money?

Do you tithe money won on lottery?

Do you tithe the money your boyfriend/manfriend gives you?

Do you tithe ransom money collected from a kidnapped victim?

Do you tithe stolen cash?

Do you tithe if you are not born-again?

Do you tithe if you have unconfessed sin in your life?

ETC.

My cousin approached me one day after arriving from night vigil and asked me if it was neccesary for him to still say his morning prayer/devotion after returning from an all night prayer meeting. I cannot remember what I said to him in response but question like his and that of the OP shows the legalistic nature the tithe certainly must be.

We have had some who come here and say they tithe following Abraham's example and that the tithe is worship to God: honoring God will our firstfruits. But I found this scriptures in Acts 17

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;


Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

And then that scripture in Romans 8

Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

The above scriptures show us in the first case that God cannot be worshipped with the works of our hands; for the Athenians it was not worshipping God with idols; for us it is not worshipping God with the things we think we can do, be it tithing or otherwise. In the latter scripture, we see that God gives us all things freely, having given us his Son. This is grace. Free giving. Our response to it is not to ballance it up with holy living or tithing but to freely give ourselves back to God. The fallen heart always wants to ballance account with God; the heart that enjoys grace does not ballance any account, but freely enjoys it while he is sold out to God in holiness and love.

How does this answer the OP's question. Truth is there is no do this, or don't do this law in the NT. A man who has come under the influence of Jesus grace, will have the Spirit of holiness withing him and that Spirit will direct him in life. It was the same thing that happened with Saul. When Samuel annointed him, he told Saul to go and do whatever is in his heart for God was with him. If God Spirit is in our hearts he will lead us on what to do. It will never be on a legalistic path of do this or do that; but doing as one is led of God: that is where grace giving and not tithing comes in.

We must all come to maturity and enter the lifestyle of Sons that do not need one to dictate to them what they must do but who have God's laws in their heart to lead them on what to do.

In addition to all this, there are no NT injuction that calls gentile Christian like you and I to tithe. But if God is leading you to give a percentage of your money, borrowed or not borrowed, it will be for that time only. I do not believe it will be a permanent thing.

Hope you got something from all this.

^Thanks Alex. Atleast we agree on somethings.

I suspect U are of deeper life or some related church. I like DLBC. i served and lived with them in Yola, 2002/2003. i enjoyed my stay there.

I will work on the packaging U talked about.

Thanks.

This essay does not detract from the fact that Jesus Christ is fully God.

I accept the fact that Adam and Jesus did not have a sin nature and that Jesus chose not to sin (royally, lol) and that he was subjected to temptation like we are.

That Jesus Christ is God exalts his pre incarnate person and post ascension glory. It does not remove from the devotions of believers, rather it enhances it...

Frosbel, I agree with U on may points but here I disagree. I follow the traditional belief of Jesus being fully God; and the name of our God be praised for that.

I have taught this before without even knowing it as explained by three OP text

1. I believe the antichrist is here and not coming
2. I believe much of what we see in our churches, the prevalence of the prosperity gospel is of the antichrist
3. And that is why believers are deceived

Well done frosbel