Nairaland Forum

Ishilove:
Hokay darleen, no vex ehn... Olowo ori mi, my e-warrior, machoman, the Word warrior, my e-knight, atheists see your username and tremble with fear, my one and only US citizen, any other Citizen Goshen is a counterfeit...ehn,oya smile for me...

So you sabi how to make my head swell up like this? You see why I say I don baptized for you. Your new competitor no efen sabi how to swell my head like this...in fact, you too much. .

ayoku777:

alwaystrue, you're being diplomatic with revelation. So if i'm dont commit adultery now, it has to be bcoz im obeying the law? So the holy spirit in me can't make me do so without the law? Gal 5v16 ...walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. I don't need a law to help me not murder anymore when i now have the Spirit to lead. And the veil that was removed is the veil of reading the law as a rule book to be observed and obeyed instead of a prophecy book that is fulfilled in Christ. If the law is still relevant, how is Christ ...the end of the law?

You see my brother, not because this is your thread. These our other Mosaic law upholders are very far from the truth. I was gonna respond to Alwaystrue by saying before I saw your response that IT IS ONLY THOSE OR SOMEONE THAT UNDERSTANDS THE MOSAIC LAW VERY WELL THAT CAN TEAR DOWN THE MOSAIC LAW,....and such was Paul the Apostle, Galatians 2:18. These our brothers and sisters don't understand the Mosaic Law at all and it is very clear from many discussions\threads.

Alwaystrue:
The law is good and Holy and Spiritual but the curse of the law is the repercussion for not continuing in the law primarily due to lack of faith.

Do Christians come to Christ by faith so they can "continue" in the Mosaic Law? When you mention law, you need to specify which law you're referring to please. For clarity purpose.

Alwaystrue:

The law was not nailed to the cross. The law in spirit is the newness of life and not just the oldness of the letter.

If the Mosaic law was not nailed to the Cross, do you still stone people to death? Do you still stone rebellious kids to death? What do you mean by the law in the spirit? Does the Mosaic law give or help to serve in the newness of life?

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; Ephesians 2:15

How do you explain this text if the law was not nailed to the cross?

Alwaystrue:

The veil of the law is removed in Christ and only in Christ.

As long as the veil remains, no one can fulfil the law in the spirit and righteousness of it.

The above statement reads contradictory to themselves. The veil of the Mosaic law is REMOVED in Christ, then do we still need this Mosaic law after being in Christ? Being in Christ takes away the veil, then what we see from Mosaic Law is Christ, not the Mosaic Law itself anymore.

Alwaystrue:

See how truth came through Christ. It did not say the law was removed or abolished, but the veil (the eyes of the flesh which hinders the spirit/unbelief/unfaithlessness/fear/blocker of God's glory).

This veil that was removed is the mindset of the law which I'm very sorry many of you who uphold the Mosaic law are still carrying or carried into Christianity. When you stop interpreting the Mosaic law with the mindset of the law but with the Mindset of Christ, seeing Christ in the Law, then the veil it truly taken away.

The fact that you keep saying the law Mosaic law was not removed or abolished. I have shown you one scriptures that says what is abolished is the law...Mosaic law. Here is another one,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Romans 10:4

What does this scriptures mean? Christ EXTENDED the Mosaic Law?

Alwaystrue:

Christ gave us the truth of the law explaining adultery, explaining hatred for our brother which is like murder, explaining the sabbath etc.

What is the truth of the law when the law says stone adulterers to death? What is the truth of the law when it says don't wear mix clothing materials? What is the truth of the law when it says a woman is unclean at mensuration? What is the truth of the law when it says man should not shave his beards etc. These are laws also, don't just pick sabbath, adultery etc to tell us Jesus gave us the truth of those ones leaving the rest laws.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Rather, I am a sinner if I rebuild the old system of law I already tore down. Galatians 2:18

Image123:

If the whole passage is talking about Jesus, then why say that Jesus is not introduced until verse 12? The writer clearly states that
Hebrews 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Isn't this context and straight enough? How is Melchi receiving tithes in the present continuous as verse 8 states? Who is witness that Melchi liveth?

External source I'll give is any center reference bible. The center reference will give you the clue to who is witnessed to be alive, the Spirit should also. if you ask.

Okay, let's put it this way, if it was Jesus that the whole passage is talking about according to verse 13, then the question is, was it Jesus that received tithe from Abraham? You can even put it (receiveth) in your present continuous if you want to answer the question.

Bidam:

Deuteronomy 4:39-40 - Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.

The above verse mirrors the "10 Commandments," the first of which is to have faith in God.

Bidam, I think we need to talk in private. See, I'm not trying to claim too know but it seems to me that you people are not grasping the revelation of the New Testament and it hurts my heart every time we talk on this and you guys are not grasping these scriptures. If the above scriptures you quoted mirrors the 10 commandments, what does that imply in the New Testament, The Epistles? Isn't that the ministry of DEATH?

Bidam:

Paul, in his letter to the Galatians, writes about the purpose of the Torah. He compares it to a tutor to us before faith Yet, he also talks about "the curse" of the Law. One seems "good" and the other "bad." How can this be?

Does this suggests to me that you don't understand Paul? Or you're just asking questions? Because, anyone that doesn't understand Paul's writing is scripturally confused because somethings are hard to understand which he wrote about. There's nothing bad about the Mosaic law, it was holy, good and useful.....only to those it was given to. It was given so they can see the need for a Saviour. It served its purpose to lead people to Christ and after then, the Holy Spirit takes over, not longer need the law to tell you what is right or wrong. The people the law was given to cannot keep it, God finding fault with them (the people) then ended covenant and the law also ended with the first covenant so the new covenant came in. I don't have much time for scripture quoting now, I would have punctuated with scriptures but I will do if need be.

Alwaystrue: @Bidam, you come across like Paul's epistles contradict the law of God. I don't see that at all. He upholds the law. It is just the way people see and interprete it.
Unfortunately, when the bible says the law came through Moses but grace and truth came through Jesus, many do not really understand what the grace and truth means.
The Christian life is more about the inward which transcends to the outward....it is less of rituals and more of the real intent purpose and heart after God.
In Jesus, we are called to a much greater service than those in the OT because of Grace and the truth that sets free. In Jesus, working in the Spirit, we fulfil the law as the fruit of the spirit is seen and everyone who exhibits this fruit fulfils the law. Anyone who works in the flesh is under the law.
It seems people believe Jesus death and ressurection period ended the law....it never did. He did not abolish the law, He came to fulfil it indeed by giving the truth of it and the righteousness thereof.
When people shout grace without the law I see it as ignorance because what do we have grace for?

Hebrews 4:16
So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most.


That is why Paul said, should sin abound because of Grace? Because it is no more sin and death should we sin or become lawless? Should we take the grace for granted? Never.
It is not to fulfil the lust of the flesh which puts us under the law but thanks to Jesus who is our advocate because of His blood, the Holy Spirit to continually convict us and guide us teaching us in all truth and God for His mercy on us because of all this.
When people realise this, they will truly understand that:

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, AND the faith of Jesus.

many do not really understand what the grace and truth means.

What does Grace and Truth mean? Do you mind teaching on it? You cannot just claim people do not understand and keep quiet not telling the people you claim don't understand Grace & Truth what it means. Please, tell us what Grace & truth means so we can understand.


When people shout grace without the law I see it as ignorance because what do we have grace for?

Who are the people that had shouted Grace without law? And what law are you talking about? Mosaic Law or Messianic Law? You tell us what we need Grace for? To keep Mosaic Law or to keep Messianic Law?

It seems people believe Jesus death and resurrection period ended the law....it never did. He did not abolish the law, He came to fulfill it indeed by giving the truth of it and the righteousness thereof.

So Christ death EXTENDED the Mosaic Law or what exactly are you saying? What does it mean to abolish and\or fulfill? What truth and Righteousness is thereof of the Mosaic Law? Please point them out to us.

^ YES! He is back from a brief break.

i.chuka:
Congrat!Bro!!

Thanks bro. Where you go enter all these days. I don miss you small o. Sure all is well sha. You're blessed bro.

Ishilove:
No even try am

Which kind face you dey make so? You think say that one dey do me anything? I tell you wetin you do wrong and you still dey come threaten me make I no efen try am....if I try am nko?

JeSoul: ...meanwhile Congratulations to sir Goshen. Bloomberg has finally hooked you up . A green card opens up all kinds of opportunities so I'm truly happy for you. What part of NY are you at? I am expecting an invitayshun to the parry, I'm only 3 hrs away. I prefer jollof & grilled (not fried) chicken. And please tell your wifey to add as much pepper to the stew as she likes, a lil' extra ata rodo never hurt nobody . And I also prefer Izze brand drinks, no coke or sprite please. And please oh very imporrant, hire some valet parking attendants...we don't want to spend 1hr+ driving around manhattan trying to find a parking spot or spend $50 to park for 1hr. Tank you sir, we appreciate. See you soon .

I don tell you say na comedian you suppose register for. And if you no register for comedy class, I will register you by force by fire. As per the party, na Naija e go happen o so that our other brethren at home can fully participate and we all use that opportunity to meet and rejoice. Will send you invitayshun then, hopefully by this December or before mid next year. Na BBQ go better pass o; you know say our brothers and sisters like BBQ, fish & Meat and celebrate.

The same is the analogy of mosaic law and faith or Grace through faith. The above scripture says God promised an inheritance (which we can see as a destination) to Abraham and this inheritance was received by faith as per Abraham and also will be received by faith of them that are of faith in Christ, the seed of Abraham and the finished works of the seed of Abraham. Scriptures says, the inheritance only comes by faith not by law otherwise, it is no longer of faith, vs 18. Is the mosaic law then bad? NO! The Apostle then went further to explain why the law was ADDED. . ."It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come", vs 19.

I call this mosaic law for the purpose of this teaching, the GPS - God's Protective\Preventive System. The Apostles says,

23[b]Before the coming[/b] of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24[b]So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.[/b]

In other words, by our analogy, the law was our GPS (navigation system), guiding us to or towards our destination, Christ that faith will take over from where the law led or navigated us to. In the same analogy, some people don't need a GPS because they already know the route to their destination and those people are the Christians. These are those who are of faith. How do I mean? When a driver already already knows his\her destination, he\she don't need a GPS (navigation system) to get there because he had once been led or guided by a GPS (navigation system) before in the past and when he's driving such route again, he\she doesn't need a GPS to get to his\her destination. That's a good driver.

By the above analogy, here is the message of the Holy Spirit to us, the Church. A Christian having the Holy Spirit is not under the law (God's Protective\Preventive System) guidance to know that Adultery is a sin or that fornication or stealing or lying, or hatred or robbery or pros.sti.tion or homo or lesbianism or two\three some (having se.x with two\three males\females at the same time) etc is sin because the law (GPS, navigation system) had first told him\her; that is, had first told him\her or led him\her by guidance like a GPS, (navigation system) in the past when he\she engaged on such route\activities. This is the same revelation that the Apostle Paul talked about in this scripture below,

New International Version (©2011)
What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."

New Living Translation (©2007)
Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, "You must not covet."

Romans 7:7

So, just like the GPS, (navigation system) shows a driver the route, the same is the law served as my God's Protective\Preventive System & navigation system showing me or helping me to know that covetousness, fornication, adultery, etc is wrong. Now, the law, GPS (navigation system) had first help me and had shown me to know sin and now, I have known what sin is or have reach my destination, do I still need the law to tell me what sin is since I now have the Holy Spirit by faith in Christ? Certainly NOT! That's what the Apostle ended with in verse 25 of Galatians 3.

25[b]Now that this faith has come[/b], we are no longer under a guardian. . . . a guardian in this context is the LAW of Moses. Galatians 3:24 because it says, it, the law WAS OUR GUARDIAN.

It's just like saying, when you've reached your destination, the GPS, (navigation system) is no longer needed or when you are going the same route you had first needed GPS to guide you or help you get there; you don't need that GPS again to guide\help you the next time you find yourself going that route. That is, when you are faced with challenges or temptation to commit adultery or stealing or lying etc, you don't need the law again to tell you those things are wrong because, just like the GPS, it had first told you and NOW by what is inside you, the Holy Spirit, you know those things are wrong to do. A Christian don't need the mosaic law to tell him or her that a particular sin is wrong, he\she now knows by the Holy Spirit to know it is wrong. This is what the Apostle meant when he said,

New International Version (©2011)
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

New Living Translation (©2007)
But when you are directed by the Spirit, you are not under obligation to the law of Moses.

Galatians 5:18

Now, the law is taken away, leaving us or giving us or replaced with the Holy Spirit to GPS (navigate) us in our Christian journey. By the law is the knowledge of sin and had already been directed\led by the mosaic law in the past before we receive the promise. Now, you have received the promised Holy Spirit, that serves as our GPS (navigation system) now, leading and directing us, then the law is not needed anymore. Being GPSed by the Holy Spirit means NOT being GPSed by the mosaic law for directions in our Christian walk. You don't need the mosaic law anymore to tell you this or that is sin because the Holy Spirit tells you or even more. For Instance, the Law does not say anything about two\three some se.x that we have in our days but the Holy Spirit tells us that Christians are not to be stained in such act either for money or any circumstance. May the Spirit of God breathe on this word in your heart!

Thank you and God bless y'all.

15Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case.

16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”i meaning one person, who is Christ.

17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.

20A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.

21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.

22But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

23Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.

24So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.

25Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

<< Galatians 3 >> New International Version

I will like to do a teaching from the scriptures above as I received based on inspiration from the Holy Spirit today as I went out with a friend driving and I was sitting enjoying the journey and the Spirit ministering to me. I want to draw my analogy from the navigation system that uses the GPS (Global Positioning System) technology to help direct and give destination instructions to a driver that could not find his\her route to a destination, so the navigation system helps to guide such drivers all through their journey until they arrive at their destination.

to be continue . . .

I still have one more message on this subject. Make I cool down write the teachings very well.

Ishilove:
He's feeling like a player

No lemme change my mind o. Abi you no fit stand competitor? You dey fall my hand o... You know say the ring don almost ready na eim you come dey talk for public like this Abi make I respond to her ni? You know say she dey wait for my response but I no give her face because I don baptized for you, now you dey call me that kind name for public...I for change my mind sharp-sharp now if no be say you use "like" for your statement, meaning, it's a simile, not a metaphor.

Bidam: I actually don't know what you are on about bro.. i was just congratulating you like any other who wishes someone well. But if you feel having a green card is the whole purpose of your Christianity...well gudluk."If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."—1 Corinthians 15:19.

Bidam my brother,

Don't take it too personal as you can see, I laughed it off. That should have told you, I was using my statement to mean, just like the law held captive but Grace sets free.

The same analogy I paraphrased that the only law that held me here, not being able to come home for sometimes is the law that says, if one don't have residence and you go out, you can't be allowed in again but now, I'm set free from that law by this gift of God that came in this testimony...do you understand now?

Image123:

i see you joined league with muskee to bear false witness. Even Paul was a pestilent fellow to those who had not the spirit. Watch your steps if you can.

sweet-tease:

The latest i heard from someone is dat they are to pay sacrificial offering dis month, their entire salary for the month of May. I was raging mad... I told her to go and ask her pastor where its stated in the bible then she should get back to me. Its so frustrating to see some pastors exploiting their members by misinterpreting scriptures!

Our efforts and goals is to present the truth revealed in the New Testament where we belong and point people to Christ, encouraging many to study the word more. It's only by studying the word more that frauds in the name of God are exposed. You have been set free by the truth, encourage others too. God bless.

musKeeto:

And I see Image123roll has nothing sensible to contribute... no atheists to troll on this thread..

Hi Gosh and Pastor Kun.. I see you're still fighting the 'TITHE' fight..

Don't mind him, he is known for trolling attitude without any meaningful things.

As for we still fighting this tithe in Christianity, you remember we discussed it before on this forum - Nigerian Christianity as practiced, many are far from the truth. How do you tell a poor person living below $2\day to pay tithe when even in Israel, the poor were not commanded to tithe but to partake of the three kinds of tithes but Nigeria Christianity tells the poor to tithe so God can make them rich or open Windows of Malachi to them....do you see the difference?

God called things that BE NOT as though they ARE but Nigeria Churchianity calls things that ARE OR EXIST as though THEY BE NOT...leaving reality to combat faith. We shall continue the fight for this freedom of truth because only the truth can and does set free.

God bless you, @ OP.

Ahh, @ Ishilove & Idowuogbo,

No fighting\quarelling\envy etc in God's kingdom o. Okay.

Image123: of course Debo knows that tithing is a form of giving, yes?


Hebrews 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

Keep deceiving yourself with KJV and twisting God's word. It's been shown to you in the past that you're always reading into the above scriptures. That 'he' that receiveth them....in that context is not Christ but Melchizedek but you're bound to your KJV that you won't accept your confusion.

New Living Translation (©2007)
The priests who collect tithes are men who die, so Melchizedek is greater than they are, because we are told that he lives on.

International Standard Version (©2012)
Mortal men collect tithes, but we are informed by Scripture that Melchizedek keeps on living.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Priests receive a tenth of everything, but they die. Melchizedek received a tenth of everything, but we are told that he lives.

Amplified Bible (AMP)
Furthermore, here [in the Levitical priesthood] tithes are received by men who are subject to death; while there [in the case of Melchizedek], they are received by one of whom it is testified that he lives [perpetually].

Expanded Bible (EXB)
Priests receive a tenth, even though they are only men who live and then die [ In the one case, mortal men receive a tithe,…]. ·But Melchizedek, who received a tenth from Abraham, continues living, as the Scripture says [L …but in the other case, the one (receives the tithe) who is declared (by Scripture) to be alive].

Contemporary English Version (CEV)
Priests are given a tenth of what people earn. But all priests die, except Melchizedek, and the Scriptures teach that he is alive.

Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Those priests get a tenth, but they are only men who live and then die. But Melchizedek, who got a tenth from Abraham, continues to live, as the Scriptures say.

Ihedinobi:

Well, when you want to know what I think aboutt something, ask questions, Zikkyy. Nothing in my response to Goshen at the point that you came in at all suggested that I thought that Jesus receives tithes. If I did not later offer that I believe that He does, you'd have nothing to stand on asking the question you're asking, Zikkyy. I never expressed or implied that Jesus receives tithes until my recent admissions that I believe that He does. I expressly stated that per Goshen's reasoning, it would be Jesus that is in the place of Aaron not the pastors in churches.

If you understand my statement was based on hypothesis, why don't you treat it as such? The structure of the tabernacle and priesthood under the law allows for my hypothesis. Taking the church building as the tabernacle which is changed now, we are the church or tabernacle. Under the tabernacle structure, the levites 'could' be pictured as today's church workers while the pastors could be seen as Aaron. Then, if you're are picturing Aaron as Christ, then you must also accept the truth that the whole system is changed under the New Covenant. That is, Levites will not receive tithe which you said should correspond to ministers of the word but the scriptures says we are NOW all priests unto God. You cannot accept on the basis of my hypothesis that Aaron corresponds to Christ and neglect the truth that the priesthood also must change and the law regulating such priesthood must also change.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Hebrews 7:12

Ihedinobi:

I believe I understood that, Goshen. I don't think that I have conveyed the impression that you think tithing is a correct practice. I understand that you conditioned everything you said on a premise that you do not accept. I have only said that you made the wrong connections. Aaron does not correspond to the pastors in churches today, tithing or no. He corresponds to our Lord Jesus Who is the New High Priest of the New Covenant. That is all.

The pastors along with everyone tasked with ministration in spiritual things in the Body correspond to the priests and the Levites.

I do not conditioned anything, I said what the word of God simply said.

As per Aaron been corresponding to pastors. Like I have said eralier, it was hypothesis from my words, SHOULD TITHE STILL BE APPLICABLE. You keep saying someone is not paying attention but you're the one not paying attention. Again, you may need to answer on the basis of question asked thereafter, that, if levites\priest are ministers of the word according to you, and Aaron corresponds to Christ, but the word of God says, ALL Christians are now PRIESTS, who then corresponds to the PEOPLE OF ISRAEL IF ALL ARE NOW MADE PRIEST ALREADY? Who takes tithe to who is all are now priests? Again, answer with scriptures please.

Ihedinobi:

So let's break it down, shall we?

Goshen said that nobody is practising tithing today like it should be. This, according to him, is because under the Old Covenant, the Levites collected the tenth from the rest of Israel and gave a tenth of their collection to the High Priest, that is, Aaron. Thus, said he, the church workers (whom he says sit in place of the Levites) are supposed to collect the tithes from the brethren and give the tenth to the pastor whom, according to him, is the equivalent of Aaron.

I returned that that is not true. I said that the Levites and priests of the Old Covenant corresponded to the ministers of the Word to the brethren in the New Covenant and Aaron corresponded to our Lord Jesus. Thus, following his logic, the tenth rightly is collected by those who minister spiritually and a tenth of that is remitted to our Lord.

Again, a flawed argument! I said SHOULD IT, TITHE STILL BE APPLICABLE OR PRACTICED TODAY, That's who we should have the corresponding people. Now, if you take my words out of the proper context and apply it to fit what you're arguing here, then answer this question.

If you take my words, levites and priests of old corresponds to today's ministers of the word to the brethren in the New Covenant, then who does the people of Israel, those who bring the tithe to the levites and priests corresponds to? They correspond to Christians? You need to answer that from or with scriptures please. The words that I spoken is based on hypothesis. There's nowhere in scripture Aaron corresponds to Jesus; he was only a shadow but Christ, in the book of Hebrews is better than Aaron and all believers are now made kings and priests unto God. If all Christians are now kings and priest, why then does them who are already priest correspond to priests\levites?

Ihedinobi:

Now, what did you go and do? You promptly accused me of making Jesus a tithe collector whereas it was Goshen's logic that made Him so.

Which my logic made Jesus tithe collector? Why can I present such logic when I'm against tithing for Christians except for you're reading into my words.

Ihedinobi:

As far as I am concerned, our Lord is truly entitled to the tenth of the tenth that the ministers receive. However, I was not pushing that notion at all. I was correcting Goshen's representations.

Again, I advise you, my brother, pay attention.

What is written is NOT your word, it is the word of God. Using languages such as "as far as YOU are concerned" is taking what is written as your personal interpretation. If the Lord is entitled to tithe, then is it too hard for you to show us from scriptures. You need to ask your dishonest friend Image123 who like to twist Hebrews 7:8 that it was Jesus who collected tithe. Maybe you can quote that scriptures also. If Jesus truly is entitled to tithe, kindly show us from scriptures or you're guilty of going beyond what is written or adding to God's word.

Don't correct my interpretation, show from\with scripture where Jesus is entitled to tithe or commanded tithe should be brought to him. Do you even know that, by the law, Jesus CANNOT TAKE TITHE BECAUSE HE IS FROM TRIBE OF JUDAH ACCORDING TO THE FLESH? Again, go read Hebrews 7 again. I await you to show us where Christ is entitled to tithe, IT MUST BE WRITTEN! Or is the word of God no longer our final authority? If you can't show it, then my discussion with you will go no further. At least, those who are reading this thread would have seen what is going on here.

m.k.o2005:

I'm just seein this,referencing the highlighted ! Thank you very much image 123.I will no longer contribute to this issue anymore. Thanks my bro.
God help every one of us
God bless us

You cannot contribute because you cannot show us where tithing was mentioned to Christians. Everywhere in scriptures where tithe was taught, the word tithe was used to communicate what is taught. Where does tithe apply to Christians in the New Testament? Even the person that advised you too cannot show it other than quoting Matthew 23:23 and tell us all scriptures is inspired as if we don't know that already or telling us, is Matthew 23:23 not part of the word of God anymore as if we don't know that too. The only tithe was mentioned in the new testament, is was ABOLISHED. Hebrews 7.

Ihedinobi:

Your answer according to the bolded is that even if our Lord and His disciples both took for granted that tithing is an eternal principle, He would still have proceeded while instructing them about their mission to give them lessons on tithing, right? Edit: why would He do so?

Commandment is different from principles! This is very clear from scriptures. That's why I said again and again, you're going beyond what is written. There's nowhere in the word of God tithe\tithing was referred to as PRINCIPLES you people always hide behind, it was a COMMANDMENT. Also, EVERYWHERE the subject or commandment of tithe\tithing was given in scriptures, that word 'tithe' all surfaced, both in the OT and NT. E.g Matthew 23:23. You're insulting Christ by insinuating that he forgot to use the word 'tithe' when he commanded that those who preach the gospel should live of the gospel. One thing you MUST do is, if it (tithe\tithing) was a principle, then show us scriptures instead where COMMANDMENT changed to PRINCIPLE or you show us from scriptures how COMMANDMENT is the SAME AS PRINCIPLES. Then we will look at it. Otherwise, you're going beyond what is written!

Ihedinobi:

Ok. First, I'm not disputing that giving was to be of one's free will and not compulsion.

If you're NOT disputing this, then why don't leave it as it is. Don't you know the Christian giving is different to Mosaic tithing? Tithe\tithing is a function of commandment whether the one that is commanded likes it or not but Christian giving is as a man purpose in his heart, not according to commandment. Lemme me show you that from scripture,

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Every man according as he purposes in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loves a cheerful giver. 2 Corinthians 9:7

That word, NOT of NECESSITY is the Greek word anagkē and it means: 1) necessity, imposed either by the circumstances, or by law of duty regarding to one's advantage, custom, argument. 2) calamity, distress, straits.

Tithing is a commandment BY THE LAW and Paul, the Apostle says, Christians giving should NOT be of necessity. That is, it should not be by 1) imposed either by the circumstances, or by law of duty regarding to one's advantage, custom, argument. Tithing is a Jewish CUSTOM and it is BY LAW a COMMANDMENT. Jesus and His Apostles that wrote the whole of the New Testament NEVER taught tithing to Christians. Why are you suggestion it?

Ihedinobi:

Second, you have toed brilapluz's path of demanding specifically worded Scriptures. I cannot give you Scriptures that say specifically that tithes were given and I would appreciate your telling me why there should be records of such.

This is been tricky! You CANNOT PROVIDE FROM SCRIPTURES SPECIFICALLY THAT TITHE WERE GIVEN? This is the least I expected from you. If you cannot show from specific scriptures, then why show or insinuate or suggest tithe for New Testament Christians? Everywhere tithe is commanded, it was specifically mentioned. Hebrews 7 then dis-annulled the tithing ordinances and commandment. We have also showed you many scriptures that tithe was NOT taught to New Testament Christians but you on the other hand CANNOT show specific scriptures that tithe were given, what then is your basis for argument? You just want to argue because Alwaystrue said so to you or what?

Ihedinobi:

Third. As I have said before elsewhere, the Law describes Christ and thus the Christian. It was more than just a command that human beings behave in a particular way, it was a deacription of how Christians behave by nature without compulsion. As such, when God described things as He did, it was to make known to Adam's race what kind of human being He wants and consequently how Adam was not that kind at all and couldn't be however hard he tried.

It is natural to give but it is not natural to be legalistic in giving. It is required by law of countries for their citizens to pay taxes but it is not a law for people to give to others. In other words, people give naturally not because they are following a law of giving. Tithing is a LAW that is COMMANDED. If you can't understand this, then you need to go back into the Mosaic law and understand what tithe is. Whether they like or not, they MUST tithe. Besides, not all who live in Israel were commanded to tithe, only those that produced crops and rear animals. Others were not commanded to tithe.

Ihedinobi:

@bolded: Am I indeed.

Yes! You are indeed importing 'tithe' into that context. My reason being that, that was the text you laid emphasis on to answer the question of who receives tithe today that I asked.

Ihedinobi:

Are tithes collected, that is, are tithes collections? Are they material blessings?

I did tell you to pay attention, didn't I, Goshen?

Okay, if tithes were material blessings, then what about it? The point is or maybe I should say you're confusing 'free gift' to COMMANDED GIFT BY A LAW. The text you quoted NEVER said those who preach the gospel should receive their reward\wages from WHAT WAS COMMANDED TO THOSE WHO MINISTER IN THE TEMPLE OF OLD NEITHER DOES THE TEXT SAY THEY SHOULD GET THEIR FOOD FROM THE ALTAR LIKE THOSE WHO MINISTER AT THE ALTAR. The text says, the Lord commanded and going back to where the Lord commanded it for those who preach the gospel, it was WHATEVER THEY ARE GIVEN - A freewill gift. That's why I said, you are going BEYOND what was written or commanded to those who preach the gospel.

Are tithes collection? The answer to this question is NO! Not for the New Testament Church and here is what the New Testament collection is,

New International Version (©2011)
Now about the collection for the Lord's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Now regarding your question about the money being collected for God's people in Jerusalem. You should follow the same procedure I gave to the churches in Galatia. On the first day of each week, you should each put aside a portion of the money you have earned. Don't wait until I get there and then try to collect it all at once.

1 Corinthians 16:1

Ask yourself this, how many churches you see doing this biblical collections for the poor in Jerusalem? This is the Apostolic practice of then. Again, tithe is a COMMAND THAT MUST BE ADHERED TO BY THE MOSAIC LAW NOT A FREE WILL COLLECTION THAT WAS SHARED AMONG THE POOR OR COLLECTED FOR THE POOR. The only place I found collection in the word of God is this text, and it is for the poor brethren in Jerusalem.

Ihedinobi:
These material blessings that you agree that ministers of the Word are entitled to, are they ever collected together in the church?

If they are collected as you stated, what are they collected as? As tithe or as free giving from those who are fed in spiritual things. You need to show us where from scriptures they are collected as TITHE because I have shown you they are collected as a FREEWILL giving.

Ihedinobi:

I think that the short of everything you said above is that ministers of the Gospel have been granted the right, nay, commanded by the Lord to receive their wages and sustenance from preaching the Gospel. Your contentions are that tithes were not specifically mentioned and the tone of our Lord's command was such that the wages that the ministers of the Gospel receive must be freely given.

Goshen's Concern #1: Tithes were not specifically mentioned.

Would they need to be if our Lord and His disciples took for granted that it was an eternal principle?

What kind of argument is this? If they weren't said to be taken care of by tithe but by free will, why then do you go beyond what is written to mean tithe is collection? Can it mean both freewill and tithe at the same time? What is eternal principle? The same thing when some people are questioned on tithe, they resort it to principle. Wasn't tithe a COMMANDMENT ACCORDING TO THE LAW? When does commandment changed to PRINCIPLES?

Ihedinobi:

Goshen's Concern #2: Whatever the ministers were to receive as wages must be without compulsion.

If it is natural to the believer to give a tenth of his material wealth toward the wages of those who minister to him spiritually, would it be a matter of obligating him or compelling him to pay tithes if one appealed to his natural inclination to do so? Does a thing's nature not compel that thing to behave in a particular way and still be free in its actions behaving that way?

Look at the way you are changing what is commanded to being NATURAL. You are going beyond what is written. That's the truth of the word. The word says, the Levites were COMMANDED TO RECEIVE TITHE AND NOT BY NATURAL LAW BUT MY MOSAIC LAW and they should give a tenth part to Aaron. Simple and short. Again, I read in one of your response where you said, Aaron would represent the Lord, not modern pastors of today. Then who does the LEVITES represents since they are the ones to RECEIVE THE TITHE first? Can you see how your argument is full of lope holes? Again, what do you mean by if one appealed to his natural inclination to do so? Did Christ sent those who he sent to preach the gospel to appeal to people to do so? or allow the people to give freely? .....going beyond what is written!

Ihedinobi:

Edit: PS. I feel that I must add the following: the question we're discussing is who receives the tithes in the House of the Lord today? My answer is those that minister to the Body spiritually. You asked for Scriptural evidence which I offered but which you rejected on the grounds that (1)it does not mention tithes specifically and (2)the wages it speaks of that the ministers of the Word receive are not obligatory upon their givers. In the above, I have offered an address of those grounds. I offer this explanation to keep us on course and prevent running away with issues not immediately relevant to the discussion. That is why I did not address some things you said in your post.

You are tricky! You just said or asked or insinuate the tithe are collections. What then are you saying? You're the one trying to force tithe into that text. Let those who benefit from the word spiritually give free to those who preach the gospel and you will remain within the scope of what the Lord COMMANDED THAT THOSE WHO PREACH THE GOSPEL SHOULD LIVE OF THE GOSPEL. DON'T APPEAL TO THEM, CHRIST NEVER SAID YOU SHOULD GO AND APPEAL TO THEM TO GIVE, HE SAID THE PEOPLE WILL GIVE FREELY WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN TAUGHT ON GIVING AND DON'T STIPULATE A FIXED PERCENTAGE, (10 WHICH IS TITHE) TO THEM.

Remain blessed.

Great thread!

Ministry is all about serving the people, in this case, not only Christians. The more I look into the mirror of the word and see our Lord Jesus Christ in ministry and compare with what we have today, I weep in my heart. Trust me, God is busy raising men and woman for true ministry. Shepherds that will feed the sheep with the truth of the word and also feed them in material things. What I say is, if we can't see the ministry of Jesus practiced in many of our churches, then we need to return to the true ministry of Jesus of the gospel accounts.

Ihedinobi:

Well, Goshen said that pastors in the New Covenant correspond to Aaron in the Old. Is that true?

I think you're reading into my words. Go back to that my comments and read it again. I said, SHOULD tithe\tithing STILL BE APPLICABLE TODAY, the levites (of old) will represent today's CHURCH WORKERS e.g, choirs, Sunday school teachers, children helpers, ushers, etc, those who assist today's pastors while today's pastor will represent Aaron.

Scriptures CLEARLY states that LEVITES are to receive the tithe and these levites with their priesthood ARE CLEARLY ABOLISHED.

@ Ihedinobi,

Goshen360: @ m.k.o2005,

I have read what you wrote but it still doesn't answer my simple and clear question. Very simple, from the word of God, who are those commanded to receive tithe TODAY....under the Church or Christian age\Grace dispensation?

I asked the question above ^ in my discussion with m.k.o2005 and you came up with an answer below:

Ihedinobi:

1. Tithes,

2. collections,

3. material blessings

...from the brethren go to those who labor spiritually for the others.

And Pastor Kun and I asked further,

Pastor Kun:

Can you quote specific scriptures to back these assertions?

Goshen360:

Exactly, do you have scriptures for your statement ^ above?

And below is was your answer,

Ihedinobi:

I'm sure you two have seen them at least once. I may not be inclined to fighting over them with you. But here is one passage at least:

1Corinthians 9:7-14
7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

There you have it.

First in your answer to who are those that receives tithe today, you mentioned three things namely:

1. Tithes,

2. collections,

3. material blessings.

The crux of the matter here is tithe. You added collections and material blessings. I don't understand why you did that but since you mentioned those two, we shall treat them also with the subject of tithe\tithing. First, there's no where in the scripture you quoted that tithe is mentioned specifically. The word of God is greater than we all. If Paul the Apostle wanted to mean or write about tithe to the Church, he would have mentioned it by the Spirit of God. You're simply going beyond what is written and trynna force your tithe into that context like those we know on this forum.

2. Collection in the New Testament is not from the brethren go to those who labor spiritually for the others as you wrongly or falsely claim; it is for the poor among the early church and saints. Doesn't it bother you the church had gone away from the truth of the Apostolic teachings today? Look at the rate of poverty among many churches, folks living less than $2 per day. Does many churches collect for the poor or for themselves?

3. Material blessings? YES! Those who labor spiritually for the others in the word are expected to benefit the materials things. This truth we cannot argue from the word of God but the issue here is, are these material blessings that is to be given to or shared with those who labour spiritually suppose to be or instructed to be tithe or from tithe of others? That's what we seek to address from the scriptures you quoted above.

Now, you quoted 1 Corinthians 9:7-14 with emphasis on verses 13-14 and perhaps presented it as though it speaks of tithe in that context. The problem with many of us is, when we read scriptures, we don't question some things. When I say, question the scriptures, I don't mean it in the negative way. I mean it in the positive so that such questioning can trigger more study or findings. Now, lemme me do justice....please note, tithe as a word did not appear in that text and since it does not, it cannot be assumed to mean tithe. Whenever an old testament scriptures is referenced in the new, a good bible student will always find where it was written in the old and apply it into the context of where the new testament made such quotation(s).

New International Version (©2011)

Don't you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar?

In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

1 Corinthians 9:13-14

In verse 13, is a reference to group #1, THOSE WHO SERVE IN THE TEMPLE...and how do they get their food? The context answers, ...from the temple. Where is this in scriptures from the Old Testament?

New International Version (©2011)
The Levitical priests--indeed, the whole tribe of Levi--are to have no allotment or inheritance with Israel. They shall live on the food offerings presented to the LORD, for that is their inheritance. Deuteronomy 18:1

...please note that those who serve in the TEMPLE are different from those who serve at the ALTAR but the same tribe of Levi or Levitical priesthood. Hence, the two-in-one reference to TEMPLE and ALTAR. In the same verse 13, is a reference to the #1(b) groups - Those who serve at the altar and how do they get their food? Again, the context answers for itself, ...from what is shared from what is offered on the altar . Where is this in scriptures? Leviticus 7:1-8 is the answer - Please, everybody should read it. I can't do much quoting now but verses 5-7 says,

The priest shall burn them on the altar as a food offering presented to the LORD. It is a guilt offering. Any male in a priest's family may eat it, but it must be eaten in the sanctuary area; it is most holy. The same law applies to both the sin offering and the guilt offering: They belong to the priest who makes atonement with them.

Therefore, we have group one - those who serve in the temple AND those who serve at the altar

In verse 14, the Apostle made reference to another group, group #2 - those who preach the gospel. And how are these group of people supposed to make their living? The Apostle said, it was the Lord (Jesus) Christ that COMMANDED it that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. Now, the point is context and reference.

Where did the Lord gave such commandment and was it that the Lord said those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel BY COLLECTING TITHE? We have to go back to where the Lord gave such COMMANDMENT AND IF WE CAN'T FIND THAT THE LORD GAVE SUCH COMMANDMENT TO BE TITHE, THOSE WHO FORCE TITHE INTO THIS TEXT ARE IN DANGER OF ADDING TO GOD'S WORD AND ARE IN DANGER OF GOD'S JUDGMENT! Where did the Lord gave such commandment?

1After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road. 5“When you enter a house, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’ 6If someone who promotes peace is there, your peace will rest on them; if not, it will return to you. 7Stay there, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house. Luke 10, NIV

From here, we see that those who preach the gospel and should receive their living from the gospel is by the FREEWILL GIVING of those to whom the gospel is preached to and the Lord said this is because the worker or labourer deserves his wages. There is nowhere in scriptures where Christ commanded tithe to be received by those who preach the gospel. We have seen how those who minister at the altar and the temple get their living. These are two different groups: those who serve in the temple \ those who serve at the altar AND those who preach the gospel.

Those who preach the GOSPEL were NEVER told told to get their living from the TEMPLE; it was instructed or commanded to those who minister at the TEMPLE. The same way, those who minister at the TEMPLE cannot go get their living from those who serve at the ALTAR. If there such a place in scripture in reference to verse 14 of I Corinthians 9 that the Lord COMMANDED that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from TITHE, please point out the scripture or be guilt of adding to God's word.

. . ."Do not go beyond what is written." 1 Corinthians 4:6

christemmbassey: but them tithe preachers say without TITHE you cant get anything, inshort a nontither is cursed, are ynu saying that the tithe preachers lied and/or Malachi3 failed in ur case? Bros dont be shy, tell us d bribe u paid to Baba God, or was it angel Gabriel you conned?

Man of God, na comedian you for go do o.... E be like say I go enlist you for comedian anointing.... . You too funny no be small.

Well, our message of Grace is simple! It says it is the all inclusive Christ. Grace comes with everything anyone needs for life and godliness; it's all wrapped in Christ and it is the FREE GIFT OF GOD less any man should boast.

When someone give you a free gift, do you receive it and say how much do I owe you or you receive it with joyful heart and say thank you?

Those who say they are under grace and still do works according to the mosaic law don't full submit to the power of divine grace of God. What does the scriptures say? My Grace is SUFFICIENT for you, meaning you don't need anything else when you fully have and submit to the Grace of God.

My brother, I didn't tithe, no seed sowing, no fasting for unlimited days, no mountain going, no binding\loosing, no enemy fall and die, no anointing oil, no first male child offerings because I'm the first male child, no beach bathing, no three\four junctions prayer at midnight...only faith\believe, and you shall see the glory of God or shall have WHATSOEVER you say. I only believed it's been ALREADY GIVEN to me in the gift of God, so I work\live it out.

That's the wonders of Grace through faith!