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Lafem (m)
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Like Seun said, 3D merely allows the computer to do more of the work, however, I'll be very quick to add that without a sound and solid grasp of 2D-based animation principles, any attempt at 3D animation will come out FLAT. And also, 3D animation isn't as easy, compared to 2D, as some folks would like to imagine -- it's just as labourious -- as the article I'll provide below will show. Animation is basically about being able to successfully convey an illusion of BELIEVABLE movement -- not neccesarily 'realistic' but 'believable'. Therein lies the POWER and DYNAMISM of the medium relative/compared to Live-Action; with animation you can convincingly achieve movements that cannot be realistically projected or portrayed with live-action -- one can exaggerate/stretch/morph both living and inanimate things, infact anything, get away with it, give it an element of drama, and raise it to the height of entertainment. It might surprise some of you guys to know that virtually ALL the popular 3D animated movies were made by professional animators with SOLID 2D background -- if you doubt the veracity of that statement, you can throw any 3D animated movie title at me and I'll tell give you verifiable histories of its animation director(s). In other words, it's simply just not possible to do GOOD 3D without a good grasp of the principles that's made 2D to remain the most popular, most produced, and most bought form of animation till today -- regardless of how many hours one spends rendering and modeling 3D images. IMO, there's just an enduring and universal charm and magic that 2D projects that can't be duplicated in 3D, not to mention that it gives the artist, as opposed to the computer, more control over their character; when I watch some of the breath-taking fight scenes from animes like Samurai Champloo, Rhonin Kenshin, Afro Samurai, Ninja Scroll, CowBoy Bebop,e .t.c. (it's a documented fact that Japanese animation studios don't care much for 3D, even though they blend it with 2D in some of their more recent animes -- e.g one can easily notice when they combine 2D foregrounds to 3D background) it's hard for me to picture such scenes in 3D; my mind just won't accept it. Same goes for Disney's the Lion King, Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, e.t.c. Like Brad Bird, the famous director of such Pixar hits like the 'Iron Giant' (2D), 'The Incredibles' (3D) and the recent 'Ratatoulle' (3D -- very very very good and entertaining movie) said in a recent interview, a director's decision to use either 2d or 3d should boil down to the story. In the long-term, I intend to delve into 3D animation, but that'll be after I've exhausted the many, many, many, many, many, and plenty, plenty, plenty  2D story ideas in my head. Now on to the excerpts from the article I mentioned earlier -- it's concerns what the major u.s animation producers have to say about 2D and 3D animation, and can be read in it's entirety by visiting http://www.animationmagazine.net/article.php?article_id=4749Toon Producers Talk ShopFriday, November 18, 2005 By: Ryan Ball The Producers’ Guild of America’s New Media Council assembled an impressive roster of producers and production execs from leading studios for Thursday night’s panel discussion titled “Animation Producers: New Skill to Draw From.” Held at the Sony Imageworks Theater in Culver City, Calif., this latest in a series of informative and entertaining PGA events tackled a number of hot-button issues while addressing the finer points of producing 2D and 3D animation for television and film. Moderated by Sony Pictures Animation producer Michelle Murdocca (Open Season), the discussion included Walt Disney Feature Animation VP of production Carolyn Soper, DreamWorks Animation producer Mark Swift (Shark Tale), Mike Young Prods. co-founder and partner Mike Young (Jakers! The Adventures of Piggley Winks, Pet Alien), The Jim Henson Co. new media producer Bret Nelson and XLT CEO David Koenig (producer of Bratz, Lil' Bratz, Build A Bear Workshop DVDs). A main focus of the evening was why producers decide to use 3D over 2D, or vice versa. Swift, who was part of DreamWorks’ shift from 2D to 3D, mentioned that one of the major benefits of 3D animation is the lack of what’s called “line mileage.” He explained that in the world of hand-drawn 2D, the more lines a character has, the longer it takes to animate and the more money it costs. “We realized that with 3D, we could make the characters as detailed as we wanted,” he remarked. However, Henson’s Nelson was quick to point out that “render is the killer on the CG side.” To work around the slowdowns and equipment woes related to rendering, Nelson and his team are taking a fairly novel approach to 3D animation production. A new animated series they’re producing is being shot like a three-camera live-action sitcom. Using the patented Henson Digital Performance Studio, puppeteers animated characters in real-time. The footage is then edited and only the parts that are going to make the final cut are rendered. The general consensus held that there are very little cost differences between producing 3D and 2D on the film side, while Nelson noted that 3D is more expensive for television. In regards to CG animation budgets, Disney’s Soper said the most frustrating thing is the “lack of exactness in determining what something is going to cost,” indicating that whatever’s on paper before the production starts is merely a guess because they’re developing the films as they’re in production. She adds, “There’s a constant balance and trade-off in dealing with the [production] as a whole and managing the complexity of the individual parts.”Mike Young said a major difference between TV and film is that TV producers are more like directors and often have an artistic background because they deal heavily with storyboards. He revealed that his studio is even developing a secret system to augment the storyboards in order to better communicate ideas to off-shore animators. “How does an animator India know how a spoiled California girl is supposed to act?” he asked, adding that their proprietary solution will help keep things from being lost in translation. Young also commented that creator-driven shows, such as Steve Hillenbrand’s SpongeBob SquarePants, are always better and that studio features need to have more of a central creative voice. |
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combrazor (m)
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Everything you have against 3d is due to the technology's relative immaturity. Why fall into that trap? notice that i said "3D animation (as it exists today)". i can't see the future: for all i know, things WILL get better with 3D animation. all i know is that TODAY it is rubbish, and frankly, with the direction in which things are heading right now (eg the monkey-like obsession with slavish naturalism) i don't see any innovation or artistry coming up over the immediate horizon. in 2007, the big 3D movie that everybody crowed over was Beowulf, which was a soulless monstrosity but people get excited by technology rather than by actual content. nope. not impressed at all. Everytime a new technology comes up, people criticize it not realizing that it can only get better than what it is replacing. technology is only as useful as the way in which it is used. technology itself does not create art; it is a tool. but then again, some tools can actually get in the way of creating work of merit. People used to say video was "inferior" to film but now we have video cameras that yield better images than film cameras. HUH??? please, which camera is this you are talking about? digital video has made some great strides, but to date not even the most sophisticated digital video camera offers comparable richness of image and depth of field as celluloid. NOT ONE. and that's even after the video has been run through rigorous post-production. i'm not saying we won't get there some day. but for now? NOT ONE. People used to say handwritten correspondence was "superior" to typewritten correspondence because it was monotonous but now we have desktop publishing systems with hundreds of unique fonts and colors. WOW! hundreds of fonts and colors! flash and dazzle! bells and whistles! but has desktop publishing brought us any significant improvement in the actual CONTENT being produced? let's take a look at what your word processing/desktop publishing has brought us: it has brought us overlong, unfocused novels because it is so much easier to "write" now. it has brought us a steady decline in grammar, spelling and general writing skills because much less thought and physical effort is invested in the writing process. it's brought us lazy writing and by extension lazy thinking. it's helped institutionalize frivolity. handwritten correspondence IS actually superior. the obsession with flashy, superficial elements such as fonts and colors is exactly the kind of frivolity i'm talking about. style over substance, who cares if the wine is bitter as long as it's in a pretty bottle, huh? The fact is that 3d is a step forward. how? you're saying it, but you're not offering me any evidence for the statement. By the time the tools for 3d animation are as mature as the tools for 2d animation, there will be no comparison between the two. Just as you can't compare very old black and white 2d animations to current 3d animations. actually, i CAN compare old black & white 2D animations to current 3D animations. to wit: this Betty Boop cartoon from 1932 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaZOXF83zBgand this Fleischer Studios short from 1929 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b8isnhYMjg&feature=relateddespite the crudity of their technique, both clearly exhibit more artistry, rhythm, "pencil acting," sensitivity, fluidity and exploitation of their possibilities of their medium than this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUyu5prWjTEthat much is obvious. Let's not fall into the habit of criticizing every new technology just because it's not yet mature. It's unhelpful! "unhelpful"? so you advocate the blind, uncritical acceptance of every technology just because it's "new"? i'm old enough to remember the 1980s when people tried to argue that a drum machine was equal to or superior to a real live human playing drums or that a synthesized horn line was equivalent to an actual saxophone, or that in any case, they WOULD be somewhere down the line. well, 25+ years have passed and a drum machine still cannot compete with real drums and neither can a synth-horn compete with real horns. and the uncritical acceptance of that technology a quarter of a decade ago has lead to the complete ruin of modern popular music; we have a state of affairs where the creativity of young "musicians" has atrophied due to the longterm reliance on gadgets and shortcuts that they now seem unable to actually create original sounds. so sorry, i wholeheartedly reject that mentality. call me a Luddite if you will, but i don't run to latch on to every new technology until it can prove to me that it is not only beneficial, but an improvement upon what already exists. |
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combrazor (m)
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Animation is basically about being able to successfully convey an illusion of BELIEVABLE movement -- not neccesarily 'realistic' but 'believable'. Therein lies the POWER and DYNAMISM of the medium relative/compared to Live-Action; with animation you can convincingly achieve movements that cannot be realistically project or portrayed with live-action -- one can exaggerate/stretch/morph both living and inanimate things, infact anything, get away with it, give it an element of drama, and raise it to the height of entertainment. It might surprise some of you guys to know that virtually ALL the popular 3D animated movies were made by professional animators with SOLID 2D background -- if you doubt the veracity of that statement, you can throw any 3D animated movie title at me and I'll tell give you verifiable histories of its animation director(s). In other words, it's simply just not possible to do GOOD 3D without a good grasp of the principles that's made 2D to remain the most popular, most produced, and most bought form of animation till today -- regardless of how many hours one spends rendering and modeling 3D images. word is bond. i agree 100% with you on the "believeable" vs. "realistic" thing, what frustrates me most about current 3D animation is that all its resources seem to be channeled towards making everything as "real" as possible, which not only makes little sense to me, it just doesn't work. i'm not against 3D *on general principle* -- as you mentioned, the Japanese have made interesting use of it in conjunction with 2D. but the current Pixar-mandated status quo? UGH! that much being said: i do love Brad Bird's movies. but my favorite of his films might just be The Iron Giant, so go figger. |
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Lafem (m)
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@ Seun: 3D or CG animation technology can improve from here to heaven, but I still maintain that it can never replace the charm of classical 2D-style animation. Like I said in my earlier post, the story should be the deciding factor as to which style to go with. Sometimes I think you gotta be more than a mere casual observer or animation audience to grasp that 'koko'.
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Lafem (m)
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@combrazor: You should consider becoming an animator, bro. I'm highly impressed by your knowledge of the medium.   . I recently got my hands on some old 'Goofy' shorts by Disney, from the 'Golden age', and I tell you, the quality of the animation almost gave me an orgasm!  Classical animation, if you have the eyes to appreciate its unparalled quality, is sheer beauty and kicks ass. Btw, where are you located, bro?
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combrazor (m)
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hey lafem!
my guy, actually, lately i HAVE been thinking about getting into animation myself. i'm based in Boston, and i'm mostly a wrriter, but my roots are in comic books. unfortunately, as it became clear that my writing was much better than my drawing, i started putting my energy more and more in that direction and less toward the drawing. so my draughtsmanship is not what it used to be!
i've been working hard to get that back, though! i'm a huge Warner Brothers junkie, i worship at the altar of Tex Avery and Bob Clampett!
oh yeah, thanks for hipping me to Pictoons; i actually didn't know about them before you mentioned them but i'm quite impressed with what they're doing!
hey, a question for you: what do you know about rotoscopy?
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jemit (m)
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combrazor & lafem - clap, clap, clap!!! wow, u guys are bad. u have a good knowledge base of animation, keep it up. but as far as i am concerned, 3d is it and is here to stay(till 4d comes along) i don't think i will ever be a fan of 2d. don't get me wrong, i love the old walt disney cartoons etc but i so much prefer the 3d mediu of expression. why don't u guys come up wit some 2d flick. |
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Lafem (m)
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i'm a huge Warner Brothers junkie, i worship at the altar of Tex Avery and Bob Clampett![/b] Bro, that makes two of us! Matter of fact, I learned animation by STUDYING Warner Bros. shorts, in 'slow-mo', frame-by-frame, while I observed the principles I was learning on display, especially Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck shorts from the Golden Age. And just like you, Bob Clampett and Tex Avery also happen to be my fav. directors, while my favourite Warner Bros. animators are Ken Harris and Bob McKimson -- Harris was a genius while Bob was in a league/class of his own. Each time I watch the Bugs Bunny short, "Falling Hare" [directed by Clampet and animated by McKimson], I find myself pausing the film, impulsively, from time to time, just to appreciate the out-of-this-world quality of McKimson's draftsmanship -- I don't think there was any other Warner Bros./Bugs Bunny animator [not even Harris] who could draw Bugs Bunny as good as Bob. hey, a question for you: what do you know about rotoscopy? Personally, I don't fancy it, mainly because the level of realism it portrays beats the whole purpose of animation, though I understand it can be a great learning tool. I think it has the tendency of looking VERY stiff when done without the animators altering it at all, like in Polar Express and Final Fantasy. I know Disney and the Fleischer Bros. used a bit of it during the early days of animation development in America, but even they had to jettison the practice partly because it just wasn't good on the eyes [atleast to me it's not]. I'll rather just study live-action films, than actually trace over them frame-by-frame. I have the Fleischers' "Gulliver's Travels", and besides the rotoscoped characters, the animation was on-point, by the standards of the time. Ditto Disney's "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" -- though in this case it was handled much better and looked pretty decent. I recently learned that even my beloved "Superman" animated shorts from the Fleischers studios of old were rotocoped, though with the sort of flair and appeal that made it hard to notice. By contrast, in Polar Express the animators literally were told to TRACE (in a sense) the actions of the actors DIRECTLY as they were done without exaggerating or altering. If you do it that way why make it animated at all? Why not just shoot a live-action film? However, it can look very good when the movements are altered and exaggerated by the animators, like in Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings movies for Gollum and King Kong. |
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Lafem (m)
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but as far as i am concerned, 3d is it and is here to stay(till 4d comes along) i don't think i will ever be a fan of 2d. don't get me wrong, i love the old walt disney cartoons etc but i so much prefer the 3d mediu of expression. That's mighty fine, bro. The world's big enoff to accomodate us all. why don't u guys come up wit some 2d flick. I've got a few projects in the works as we speak. |
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combrazor (m)
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Lafem:
yeah, McKimson is one of my favorite animators, too! and Clampett is probably my favorite director out of that crew, for the longest time i placed Tex Avery above all because of stuff like the "Red Hot Riding Hood" but over the past two years, i've really come to feel that Clampett was way ahead of him with stuff like "Falling Hare" and "Porky in Wackyland."
i agree with you on rotoscopy being too stiff and disturbingly naturalistic, but i've often wondered whether it might be a happy median between (what i think of as) "proper" animation and the kind of "realism" that current audiences seem to be getting used to. but like you said, it's just lacking, Polar Express just looked creepy and all the characters seemed utterly soulless, it was disturbing to look at!
i've found that i enjoy rotoscoped stuff in shorter bursts, but it grows tiresome over the course of an extended feature, and even then, i like to see additional animation put into it eg the Superman shorts, as you mentioned (some of my all-time favorite toons!) and Richard Linklater's A Waking Life (though that movie is hard to watch at length for other reasons).
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Lafem (m)
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@combrazor: Sorry my reply's coming a bit late, na work no gree me the time. How's 'beantown'? Bro, I agree with what you said about rotoscopy. Honestly, I was initially averse to the technique until I saw its effective execution and application in King Kong and Gullum [LOTR]. And like you, I equally find that I enjoy it best when used sparingly, as was done in the 'Superman' shorts. As the superman shorts suggest, I think it can be indeed be effectively and convincingly pulled-off when tweaked by animators, to tone down its overtly realistic tendency.
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grafikdon (m)
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2D animation is not dead and 3D is not here to replace 2D, there's enough room for both. I wouldn't write off 3D either because it has its uses and could be pleasant and breath taking when utilized APPROPRIATELY and by this I mean visual effects in live action movies where digital stunt doubles are employed in shots that are short and impressive enough to save it from scrutiny. 3D fills in the gap left by some of the obvious limitations of 2D. They both can be used together in 'peace and harmony'. For instance, the ''SEAMLESS" integration of 3D and 2D can be jaw dropping . Ghost In The Shell and Sky Blue (Korean feature) come to mind, as well as others too numerous to mention. There's something about the simplicity and fluidity of 2D animation that can NEVER be REPLICATED or REPLACED by any medium. With that said, I'd like to point out that 3D becomes rather offensive and ridiculous when somebody tries to make a photo realistic 3D movie- - - I find it a very ridiculous and pointless adventure. If you are going to do it, tone down on the realism like they did in Advent Children, Kaena, Tak and the Power of Juju- - - etc. It is more appealing that way and does not leave you wondering if you should be watching these wax figures or punching yourself with a bag of nickels. Sure I enjoyed photo realistic stuff like Beowulf and Spirits within, it was merely for the stunning visuals. My opinion about such ventures remain the same, it is not a very bright idea. I have a peoblem with the concept only, but I do enjoy the visuals to the fullest, pure eye candy, no more no less. Use 3D for the right purposes and all will be well (Vfx, video games and heavily stylized projects---etc). Thank God for Television, The French,Japanese, Koreans and Chinese, for without their commitment to quality 2D animation, we'd all be choking with American ''Twinkle Twinkle Little Star' animation and by this I mean ridiculous infantile-fuzzy-wuzzy-talking furry animal fiasco bullshti, where creativity and originality could be more difficult than the conversion of Osama Bin Laden to Christianity. On a side note @ Combdrazor, I don't think some Africans are joining the 3D band wagon because of cost (lol you should see their Max vs Maya vs Lightwave my-software-is-the-real-deal-and yours-is-shit beef ) rather, it is because the fundamental requirement of 2D animation is that YOU MUST KNOW HOW TO DRAW. In order words, it is easier to hack it out with 3D where you don't necessarily have to be a superstar illustrator (Never mind the best 3D artist have strong traditional art background). 2D is more labour intensive but 3D is a lot more costly in terms of software and hardware. |
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bishoptboy (m)
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I'm so happy to see how you guys talk intelligently on topics like this. Let us not just forget the initial call i made about making impact in the nigerian film industry. No matter where we are we will always be refered to as nigerian filmmaker. I see myself as a nigerian film maker although i'm not in nigeria. lets joing hands and make a change. let find a way of coming together and put a few films out there that will call the attention of the world. Tsotsi film from south africa did it. Writers, cinematographers, editors, directors lets tell the world THAT QUALITY CAN COME FROM NIGERIA NOT ONLY QUANTITY.
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jemit (m)
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I'm so happy to see how you guys talk intelligently on topics like this. Let us not just forget the initial call i made about making impact in the nigerian film industry. No matter where we are we will always be refered to as nigerian filmmaker. I see myself as a nigerian film maker although i'm not in nigeria. lets joing hands and make a change. let find a way of coming together and put a few films out there that will call the attention of the world. Tsotsi film from south africa did it. Writers, cinematographers, editors, directors lets tell the world THAT QUALITY CAN COME FROM NIGERIA NOT ONLY QUANTITY.
i still seriously believe we can make impact in the industry. want to know something, bishoptboy, hope u are coming back to niga to pour out all the knowledge and skill u have acquired where u are. i feel the idea of we putting heads, hearts and hands together to come up with a good film. i am looking for people to work with. |
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richyodilu (m)
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I am so elated to see that there are indeed young people like me who aspire to change the face of movie making in Nigeria. This is the drive that gave birth to the Company, Xpressive Productions in the USA (I am a co-partner, and the Nigeria version is Xpressive Entertainment) we want to revolutionize Entertainment and Production in Nigeria. We are looking at taking local contents to the international scene, that is why I have gone ahead to study HOLLYWOOD and discovered what makes it sell like fire. I can boldly say I have been skooled in the art of international SCREENPLAYING, and has acquired series of Screenplay softwares, and we have huge projects ahead that we have started work on, I am glad that I have found guys like you here, and did I mention I am superbly creative, got nominations and awards for that , richyodilu@yahoo.com, that is my contact |
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ikechima (m)
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Re:Join The Next Generation Of Film Makers. (new Wave Pioneers) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm also interested abut D whole stuff.Actually i read Theatre Arts and as a mtter of fact,i don't watch 9iaja movies.please when eva u are set let me know.u can reach me through 08037966788,or iceignat@yahoo.com. IKE IGNATIUS CHIMA. |
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lynx45 (m)
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sorry may i add this has anyone tot about d distribution mechanism for this new wave of films because this is where the idumota boys hav an edge i really love your idea and am down wit it but does anyone hav any good idea on bypassing this idumota boys and creating a whole ney marketing system(am not talkin cinema)an idea came 2 me concerning usin the cell phone to rent or sell movie copies 2 the public am still adding flesh to d idea i will get 2 u when am done meanwhile any other suggestions
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saxpire
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hlo house,please i'm interested in film making.can anyone direct me on the right step to take.It's really my passion.thanks
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powerofmap (m)
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Am a Script Writer and I wana be part of this, Da prof never knew you good with animations My YM and email is powerofmapen@yahoo.com |
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combrazor (m)
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no, i wouldn't say i'm good with animation. . . i'm just trying to learn now!
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jemit (m)
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Da Prof, what type of animation are u into.
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combrazor (m)
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just regular 2D animation and also stop-motion.
old-fashioned stuff, basically!
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powerofmap (m)
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Old school kind of cool
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sirnbolo
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well, u've all written animatedly enough. but u all forgot one thing. your contact. so i don't think u guys are ready yet. and thats the problem with nigeria. too much talk because we are so good at it and no work. so i'm good with stories but nevr with scripts. my phone no is 07031001670. when u are ready to hit it, call me i'm all set.
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combrazor (m)
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@ grafikdon n a side note @ Combdrazor, I don't think some Africans are joining the 3D band wagon because of cost (lol you should see their Max vs Maya vs Lightwave my-software-is-the-real-deal-and yours-is-shit beef ) rather, it is because the fundamental requirement of 2D animation is that YOU MUST KNOW HOW TO DRAW. In order words, it is easier to hack it out with 3D where you don't necessarily have to be a superstar illustrator (Never mind the best 3D artist have strong traditional art background). 2D is more labour intensive but 3D is a lot more costly in terms of software and hardware. somehow i missed this reply before. yes, i feel you there--ultimately it's much less about the cost than it is about skirting the labor (and in some cases, the rudimentary skills) of traditional animation. and i understand that, i guess: not everybody can draw and 3D allows more of those people to participate in animation. i'm old-fashioned, though . . . i feel that if you want to do animation but you can't draw, then you should learn to draw. *shrug* |
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Lafem (m)
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@Combrazor: Did you just reveal an interest in the Stop-motion animation style?! Bro, that's like my second most-beloved animation style -- right behind traditional/classical animation, ofcourse! I intend to delve into the style in the near future. Have you seen Tim Burton's "The Corpse Bride"? I believe it ranks as perhaps the best animated feat achieved in recent times! If you ain't seen it, please do. And make sure you watch the 'making' of the film in the special features section of the dvd, and tell me if you aren't moved. p.s: I'd hate to derail this thread but, I for like to talk more about animation with you, bros. Maybe we fit block on my 2d traditional/classical animation thread in the Graphics forum. What you say?
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combrazor (m)
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Lafem -
yes . . . i have a serious weakness for stop-motion, claymation and puppetry. there's something about those laborous, old-fashioned techniques that produce a particular magic on screen that (for now) can't be duplicated!
you know, i actually have not seen Corpse Bride--but thanks for reminding me, because i have been telling myself forever to check it out! (moving it to the top of my queue right now)
i'll check out your animation thread . . . i tend to only check out this particular forum (TV/Movies) but i really should look around more, especially in the Graphics section (probably in literature, too)
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dappsy001 (m)
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THERE IS A NEW TV SERIES COMING UP THAT I HEARD ABOUT ITS CALLED "D COMBACK" THE QUALITY OF THIS SERIES IS LIKE ALL THE WAY UP THE AND ITS AN ORIGINAL SERIES SO ITS NOT LIKE NIGERIANS ARE STEALING AMERIANCAN SHOWS AND I HEARD ITS GOING TO BE SHOWN IN NIGERIA BUT ITS SHOT IN AMERICA BY NIGERANS.I THINK THE NAME OF THE ENTERTAINMENT COMPANY SHOOTING IT IS CALLED PROMINENT CEASE ENT.THEIR WEBSITE WOULD SOON BE OUT.WE SHOULD ALL SUPPORT GOOD QUALITY ENTERTAINMENT FOR ONCE.
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andrewdg
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My am andrew simon. My height in screenplay and script editing can only be talked about when the time comes. Contact me on 07034819433 when you come around. Nice idea!
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