Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4?

A big thank you to @Ivvie, @Midas02 and everyuone that has contributed to the discussion.

In fact I just discovered I have been away for two very important and explosive days on Niraland. I am a Civil engineer and a car frik that want some practical advice. I am very happy that I got more than the advise I wanted.

Happy to say that I got the 'end of discussion' v6 at 69k miles and it runs like mad and consumes fuel like mad. I understand the fuel consumpsion will reduse if the removed catalyst is replaced but I must tell you it is too sensitive compared to my ford contour I placed on Nairaland for sale www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-105186.o.html   .

@midas,Ivvie
please i will appreciate if can get in touch with me for a discussion outside this topic on talk2dpresident@yahoo.com or 08023456002. My name is Lateef.

Thanks a lot

@bjcisse  and Raphoad,

I planned to ignore the thread but you two have succeeded in bringing me back. I think it is abundantly clear that you had nothing to say or contribute but just felt like writing. That Ok, it's a free world and the net is full of all sorts. A typically ignorant response, no understanding of the subject matter just being impressed by BS spouted out with big big grammer. Go back and read my post and point out to me what is wrong with? Some of Ivvie was writing was scientifically incorrect and I have pointed this out to him. If there is anything that I have written that is factually incorrect please highlight it, instead this vacuous prattle excuse of a post!!

@Ivvie

1) The equation is still meaningless even with 1-2 under the summation sign. 1 to 2 of what?

2) Midas difinition is correct and is the standard definition of the 2nd law of thermo. Even if it comes from wiki. As you may be well aware it is a universal law, not only used in Heat transfer calculations, but also in industrial chemistry, biology, etc,  The form described by Midas is the universal description.

3)
As TL tends towards 0: TL->0, we should have:

( 1 - (0/TH))* 100,  right. Now whatever yu divide zero by is zero or am I wrong? As in zero oranges dived by 50 oranges is no oranges, abi? so what does that leave us:

( 1 - 0)* 100 = 1*100 = 100%

You wrote:


As you can see the from the equation above as TL tends towards zero 100% is possible. Also, the statement in quote has no substantive application to the equation you have presented. 270K and 320K is going away from zero. The equation does not represent restriction. Maybe if you take the case that TH tends towards zero in which case you will have

(1 - TL/0)* 100. TL/0 is undefined as it tends towards infinity. This is where you can apply L'hoptal's rule and set your constraints. Even so, you'll probably end up with negative percentage, which could be impossible - a contraint depending on the engineering parameters of your system.

PSSWORD,

Why are you taking things here personal? this place is suppose to be a forum where group of people comes together to share ideas. If you have decided not to come back to this thread again, then please take a walk and don't start what you can finish.

Its as simple as ABC, give your opinion and let other give theirs. if you consider other people opinion wrong , then correct them and don't start to insult people here.

we are all gaining from this thread. remember you are not the only mechanical engineer reading this thread. there are all kinds of professional from different area of specialization too. once a again be responsible and post here as a professional you claim to be.

nobody on this thread has said midas is wrong but you or more  people had said ivriv is wrong. but let do it maturely,

i don't no this but i believe everything ivrive has said will not be wrong,  as more people has testify to this.

i'll wait here for you if you agree,  i see u as a responsible guy and trust you will change.


Regards

Let this be my final entry into this topic. To those who have been kind enough to try and chip in or mediate - It is our culture in Naija, to resolve and settle our differences without using truth-telling and facts as a guiding yardstick and I am just one who simply rebels against it!. I refuse to trade truth for peace!. I call a spade a spade and it will be unfortunate if someone chooses to see it as an insult or arrogance.
Ovvie’s statements are not only untrue and misleading, but they also reveal a confused and desperate desire to justify his position by pasting unrelated, meaningless and distorted jargon!. One cannot be asked about Jesus Christ in a Bible knowledge examination and give them an answer talking about Moses!. Both topics may be in the Bible but they are largely different events and the stories cannot be confused with each other.
Ovvie keeps making reference to High compression, Low compression, High efficiency in engines and a host of thermo-related terms without any meaningful postulations as to the inter-relationship and their relevance to the subject matter – which is Engine wear in 6Cyl Vs 4Cyl.

For the benefit of those who may be interested in knowing, I will take the time to shed light on those technical terms without making it overtly complicated:
All cars use four-stroke engines. One of the strokes is the compression stroke, where the engine compresses a cylinder-full of air and gasoline into a much smaller volume before igniting it with a spark plug. The amount of compression is called the compression ratio of the engine. A typical engine might have a compression ratio of 8-to-1. The higher the compression ratio, the higher the efficiency and power output of an engine (within a given limit). Thus, most modern engines, because of the higher demand for gas economy and power, have compression ratios that are over 9-to-1 and some go as high as 10.5-to-1. Because of the optimization of engine design, today’s engines tend to operate at higher temperatures (even though the total effect of this higher temperature is neutralized by the use of more efficient cooling systems and improved application of heat-treated and conductive alloys in these engines). The higher operating temperatures of these newer engines mean that low quality oil will most often break down quickly thereby loosing its essential viscosity and ability to effectively prevent friction by lubrication. Like I said earlier, the only thing that causes wear in an engine is friction (metal to metal contact) and this is why effective lubrication is a must!. This is why car manufacturers specify a certain grade of engine oil and some would even go as far as to encourage the use of Synthetic oil for their vehicles. Now this is as far as the issue of high compression and heat go in the subject matter of wear in an Engine.
The truth remains that whether you drive a 4Cyl or a 6Cyl, if you are driving a car manufactured with the technologies from the mid-90’s onward, you are most likely driving a car with higher compression ratio and efficiency and it doesn’t make a difference either way (4cyl or 6Cyl). Here is an extract from Honda’s corporate office on their Honda Accord engines (2003 “End of Discussion”):

http://corporate.honda.com/press/article.aspx?id=952

Now as you can see from that page, not only did they show the technical details and differences of both the 4cyl and the 6Cyl, they also went on to show the improvements that they made over the preceding engines (1998-2002 “Baby boy”). The compression ratios stated there for both engine types show that they both have comparably high ratios – but by today’s standards this are considered normal!. Truly high compression engines as found in super high performance cars such as Honda S2000, Corvette Z06, Ferraris and Porsches often operate with compression ratios that are much higher and that is why such cars cannot be operated with 87 Octane gasoline (but that is another subject matter!).
The bottom line is that Ovvie’s insistence and continuous mention of this terms (to say little about his distorted and meaningless mathematical entries)  go to show me that not only does he not know what he is talking about because he uses them out of context, abusing them with reckless abandon and without any meaningful purpose, but he also doesn’t know how they tie into the subject matter. If you are really a final year student of mechanics then you must know that there are people that have been there before you and who have the added benefit of real world, hands-on experience! – something that a textbook cannot give you!. Ultimately, this discussion is not about winning or loosing an argument, it is about setting the records straight without any misrepresentation. I believe I have made my position and point adequately clear and I will henceforth refrain from further entries into this thread. Thank you.

PS: Ovvie, you still haven’t shown us the source or basis for your postulation about Hondas having a 130,000 mile design limit. We still look forward to seeing a credible shred of evidence.

Hello all,

I have a 1997 honda accord (baby boy). V6 engine. Works fine except that it jerks badly when its cold. But normalises as soon as I drive a distance and the engine warms up.

I've changed the plugs severally. This doesnt improve at all when a new set of plugs are installed.

Could it be a fuel filter issue? Where's the filter located. We can't find this.

Gamer,

Your problem is easy to narrow down. The kind of issue and symptoms you just described points to only one culprit - Ignition system (this includes spark plug wires and distributor assembly)!.
You probably need Spark Plug Wires (spark plug wires are supposed to be changed during a full tune-up). Spark plug wires don't function right once they get old because the rubber covering deteriorates, heat from the engines causes wires to dry up, crack and loose pliability. Eventually, you start loosing vital electric currents to outside elements and your engine's spark timing cycle is thrown off because the electric charge doesn't get to the right cylinder/spark plug when it is needed. This is why your car jerks!. Having said that, there could be another culprit - Distributor!. Honda distributors (especially 1990 -1997 models) are notoriously sensitive and when you start having temperature related malfunction (engine getting warm or cold) in distributors then it is the beginning of a long trip to absolute failure (it takes a while but it will eventually happen). The best thing is to replace your spark plug wires (hope you can find original/quality parts) and if it does not stop then you can start looking to replace your distributor soon.

Unfortunately, Honda distributors are sealed and you cannot replace the distributor cap and rotor inside because they don't come that way. you have to buy the entire distributor. I hope this helps.

An ibo-american friend of mine got a C43.  For a Mercedes, you couldn't feel the shed load on this vehicle.  This was a mini monster.  To prove himself with another fellow about his prowess, he decided to drag with this fellow.  Drag started and sooner over 100mph engine explodes and Mercedes flips over.  The C43 is a high performance, high velocity V8 engine in a C Class chassis and tuned by //AMG.

The C36 made that succeeded that V-Boot styled C Class is also noted for engine explosion also.  Why is that?  Thermal heat and stress!  What I have been trying to prove is that a car that runs hotter does not last as those that run cooler.  You may not notice but that is it.

@Midas


This is a simple way to step with a false sense of impression.  You have explained an engine in operation and not the principles of the Carnot Engine.  The equations was just an extra mile to prove my case since you gave the impression that you understood what I said.

I did not prove any one wrong and never even scoped my point of view.  For a gas engine that is higher in compression, it runs hotter and cannot last as long as its lower compressed cousin.  There is a field in Mech Eng called Material Science and every thing in a car has a LIFE.  In reality it is an approximation.  This field details structural mechanics in the multiphysics approach.  It is not the engineering that is massly done.  It is geared towards PLM.  It goes deeper but I will not go into it. 
You can enlighten yourself here and for others that might be interested.

http://www.comsol.com/products/multiphysics/research/tutorials/

The life expectancy that I wrote was said by my professor when I took Metals and Materials.  I don't mean to be disrespectful but if you know better, you can try taking his job.  It doesn't mean it dies at 130, but its peak declines.  It is basically engineered averagely to 130.  Ever heard of Mercedes "Engineered like no other?"  Before '95 Mercedes Benzes were designed for 50 years or 1 million miles.  It is also called over engineering and that is why Mercedes are heavy (not today's).  The last Mercedes ever built was in '98.  The newer will have the 80's drive-feel with night vision. 

I do a lot of practice ; one of which I am so proud of was the brake squeal analysis using Abaqus CAE.  This is all Multiphysics and PLM.

The cycle you are talking about is engine operation in a car with regards to piston travel and piston stroke.  This is Intake Stroke, Compression Stroke, Power Stroke and Exhaust Stroke.  To further explain the piston travel, it is the occurence limited in both direction - upper limit (TDC) and lower limit (BDC).  The piston stroke is its movement from TDC to BDC and vice versa. 

What I discussed was not the operation but PROCESSES and CYCLES in thermodynamical phase.  If you recollect, a PROCESS is a change of state.  A CYCLE is a combination of two or more processes that when completed returns its SYSTEM to its initial STATE.  We shouldn't forget that a SYSTEM operating on a CYCLE is called a cyclic device.

In the first place, you never really fathom what I said and I'm sure you probably never got the rest. 

There are four PROCESSES in a heat engine.  It is also called the CARNOT CYCLE.  These are processes are:

Reversible Isothermal Compression at temperature TL
Reversible adiabatic compression from the low temperature TL to higher temperature TH
Reversible isothermal expansion at temperature TH
Reversible adiabatic expansion from temperature TH to TL

These are processes of a heat engine and not operation of a motor vehicle.  The processes of a heat engine applies to all motor vehicle but operations of a car's engine will not apply to all heat engines.  An example is PMM2 (perpetual motion machine of the second kind).  A car operates as PMM1 (perpetual machine of the first kind).  Isothermal-adiabatic compression and expansion is not the same as when your engine suck, squeeze, burn and puff.  In thermo, it's categorised as quasi-equilibrium expansion and compression of gases. 

You don't have to believe my explanation of the second law of thermodynamics.  I studied Applied Thermodynamics and included but not limited to Heat Engines and the Second Law of Thermo, Internal Combustion Engines and the Otto and Diesel Cycles, Gas Turbines, Jet Propulsion and the Brayton Cycle, Steam Power Generation and the Rankine Cycle as well as Heat Transfer.  Through the course, EES (Engineering Equation Solver) was used during Heat Power.  There is no way one can pass thermo without the second law.

I am sure of myself and know what I am saying.  Mechanical Engineering differs from field to field.  I'm sorry to say, if wiki is the source to which people resort to for information, then they are in for a funny surprise.  People add and subtract from it.

I would simply appreciate if you can prove me wrong in certain places.  I live a very simple life and spirituality and knowledge is my highest priority.  Nairalanders that know me on a personal level will assert to the fact that I am simple and all I do and talk about is engineering, its what I spend money on and follow principles in details. 

At this point, it is clear to me you don't understand structural mechanics.  So far, your facts are trivial without the actual science to it. 

This is completely true.  You are actually going to burn more fuel but the horsepower gain might barely be felt at the pedal due to fhp.  When the engineers design something for a particular purpose and you decide it is not needed, then ask yourself why you aren't working there.  Find someone else to work on your vehicle when you have problems.  The last thing you don't want is to have check engine light illuminated due to misc. complications.  It may not be funny restoring it to normalcy.  It won't even be funny if you have a California specified Honda or those ULEV.  You take it off and the check engine light stays on.  Never listen to anyone that will tell you they have to take your radio off to clear the code.  The person lacks the right tools to detail the car.

I don't know about you but in the United States, gasoline is the cheapest liquid that can be bought.  I don't complain buying gas anymore.  I would frown at a gas guzzler.  Your vehicle doesn't burn gas.  As a matter of fact, it is efficiently using it.  Try a vehicle with 8 miles to a gallon and 12 miles to the highway.  Anything over 18 city is good.

Oga proo u welcome o, but abeg make this tory get end of discussion.

I no know say Nigerians know book like this ooooooo. All of una too dey talk sef. The person wey start the thread don already buy the car, which one una still dey talk again???

Oya Oya Oya,

End of this Discussion!!!

@ Pssword:

Chief, you might want to tell us the essence of your posts o, Professor, (of  Engineering) if you cannot disseminate knowledge of which you claim mastery, to people you claim are "ignorant",  Must all of us be  Engineers before we grasp little detail in a simple question (asked by dpresident to which your response was based, chief? Therefore, you might want to explain who then is making "vacuous Prattle" if you can not even be a bit sensible.

That takes me to your earlier post as you suggested in your post viz:

"First of all, this is not an engineering discussion because Ivvie is writing NONSENSE He must be a sophomore or junior engineering student who hasn't quite understood the subject matter or some copy and paste jocky with little or no vague idea about engineering. I mean copying poorly formed partial differential equations from God knows where.  Equivocating, maybe prevaricate may be a closer word, on the 2nd Law of thermo. He had no understanding of the role of entropy in a sytem, heat or otherwise.  For me this was the biggest herring. When people use big big grammer and cryptic jargon when asked really simple question, you can quickly tell that there are trying to hide their ignorance.  Thank God I have an engineering background or I would have been bamboozled by charlatans like this Ivvie guy. "

You started by saying Ivvie wrote "NONSENSE",  and I am yet to see any "SENSE" in your response, quoted above. If Ivvie doesn't understand 2nd law of Thermodynamics, what have you done to correct or educate (NOTHING, except all these "big big grammer and cryptic jargon". Mr. Bamboozle and chalatans.

Why is it so freaking easy for you to abuse at the word "go". E re n le Baba Purofeso. You better have a bit of "reasonability" in your loins and don't be put off by simple suggestion I made earlier (You can refer to it, if you are "ignorant").

Me go school, for where? When nairaland get ogbologbo like this.

See as grama full groud yakata.

Abeg, make I copy am quick quick so I go fit tell Molue driver say the thing wey make me charge am 500 naira to patch im tire nah because the tire get ADIYE(fowul)batic compression from overload.

As  a professional of more than 10 years experience working in Europe now,I will say that Ivvie is writing like some one who has read a lot but does not have a lot of practical experieince.
Midas is however breaking down his argument in a way that any well educated person can understand and that usually comes from practical experience.

I only feel sorry for people in Naija because this argument would be understood by most half educated people in the western world but to a lot of Naija graduates even the, science ones it may be hard to  follow .

If you work in a place where almost every one has internet access at home and the clients come in to see you at work after going online and doing their own research ,it is hard to bamboozle any one here. You have to know your stuff.
BUt I must thank you  both for debate, higher standard than I have seen on Nairaland of late

I'll take your counsel to this.  I apologise to this forum for taking this way out of its intended scope.  I don't seek attention nor undo awareness.

      Honda end of discussion  v6 can be compared to rocket science, i will give a brief  description:

    * Time (T): the time this row represents. The first row starts at zero and for each row thereafter, T = T from previous row + dt.
    * Mass (M): the mass of the rocket at this time. M = M from previous row - dM, where dM is the "mass decrement", or the mass of fuel you think will be burned in dt.
    * Drag Force (Fd): Fd = 0.5*rho*Cd*A*V^2 where V is the velocity calculated in the previous row. Cd=drag coefficient, A=area of the rocket, rho=air density (1.2 kg/m^3 at sea level). Note: there's a little trick to drag force, see below.
    * Thrust (Ft): Rocket's thrust. For example, you can set this to the average thrust for rows from time=0 up to the row that is the burnout time, zero thereafter.
    * Net Force (F): F = Ft-Fd-M*g is the sum of thrust, drag, and weight.
    * Acceleration (Acc): Acc = F/M, where force and mass values are the ones from this row (the current time period).
    * Velocity (V): V = V from previous row + Acc*dt where Acc is the acceleration from this row (the current time period).
    * Altitude (Y): Y = Y from previous row + V*dt where V is the velocity from this row (the current time period).

 I hope this info will help a lot, LOL

V6s are Money BURNING machines. Especially the 2003/2005 Honda accord V6 Models. Maintenance is very expensive and its got a very fragile transmission system (gear). And the rate of fuel consumption is high.