The text that follows is taken from http://www.bible-researcher.com/comma.html. Just read it and make you own decision. If fact, why not read Revelation 22:18-19 before reading the text below;

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book."

Now read the text below this line, bearing in mind Rev 22: 18-19

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The Johannine Comma
(1 John 5:7-


The so-called Johannine Comma (also called the Comma Johanneum) is a sequence of extra words which appear in 1 John 5:7-8 in some early printed editions of the Greek New Testament. In these editions the verses appear thus (we put backets around the extra words):

ὅτι τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες [ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ Πατήρ, ὁ Λόγος, καὶ τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα· καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἔν εἰσι. 8 καὶ τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῇ γῇ] τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα, καὶ οἱ τρεῖς εἰς τὸ ἕν εἰσιν.

The King James Version, which was based upon these editions, gives the following translation:

For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth], the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

These extra words are generally absent from the Greek manuscripts. In fact, they only appear in the text of four late medieval manuscripts. They seem to have originated as a marginal note added to certain Latin manuscripts during the middle ages, which was eventually incorporated into the text of most of the later Vulgate manuscripts. In the Clementine edition of the Vulgate the verses were printed thus:

Quoniam tres sunt, qui testimonium dant [in caelo: Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus Sanctus: et hi tres unum sunt. 8 Et tres sunt, qui testimonium dant in terra:] spiritus, et aqua, et sanguis: et hi tres unum sunt.

From the Vulgate, then, it seems that the Comma was translated into Greek and inserted into some printed editions of the Greek text, and in a handful of late Greek manuscripts. All scholars consider it to be spurious, and it is not included in modern critical editions of the Greek text, or in the English versions based upon them. For example, the English Standard Version reads:

For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.





We give below the comments of Dr. Bruce M. Metzger on 1 John 5:7-8, from his book, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, 2nd ed. (Stuttgart, 1993).


After μαρτυροῦντες the Textus Receptus adds the following: ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ Πατήρ, ὁ Λόγος, καὶ τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα· καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἔν εἰσι. 8 καὶ τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῇ γῇ. That these words are spurious and have no right to stand in the New Testament is certain in the light of the following considerations.

(A) External Evidence.

(1) The passage is absent from every known Greek manuscript except eight, and these contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from a late recension of the Latin Vulgate. Four of the eight manuscripts contain the passage as a variant reading written in the margin as a later addition to the manuscript. The eight manuscripts are as follows:

* 61: codex Montfortianus, dating from the early sixteenth century.
* 88: a variant reading in a sixteenth century hand, added to the fourteenth-century codex Regius of Naples.
* 221: a variant reading added to a tenth-century manuscript in the Bodleian Library at Oxford.
* 429: a variant reading added to a sixteenth-century manuscript at Wolfenbüttel.
* 629: a fourteenth or fifteenth century manuscript in the Vatican.
* 636: a variant reading added to a sixteenth-century manuscript at Naples.
* 918: a sixteenth-century manuscript at the Escorial, Spain.
* 2318: an eighteenth-century manuscript, influenced by the Clementine Vulgate, at Bucharest, Rumania.

(2) The passage is quoted by none of the Greek Fathers, who, had they known it, would most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian). Its first appearance in Greek is in a Greek version of the (Latin) Acts of the Lateran Council in 1215.

(3) The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic), except the Latin; and it is not found (a) in the Old Latin in its early form (Tertullian Cyprian Augustine), or in the Vulgate (b) as issued by Jerome (codex Fuldensis [copied a.d. 541-46] and codex Amiatinus [copied before a.d. 716]) or (c) as revised by Alcuin (first hand of codex Vallicellianus [ninth century]).

The earliest instance of the passage being quoted as a part of the actual text of the Epistle is in a fourth century Latin treatise entitled Liber Apologeticus (chap. 4), attributed either to the Spanish heretic Priscillian (died about 385) or to his follower Bishop Instantius. Apparently the gloss arose when the original passage was understood to symbolize the Trinity (through the mention of three witnesses: the Spirit, the water, and the blood), an interpretation that may have been written first as a marginal note that afterwards found its way into the text. In the fifth century the gloss was quoted by Latin Fathers in North Africa and Italy as part of the text of the Epistle, and from the sixth century onwards it is found more and more frequently in manuscripts of the Old Latin and of the Vulgate. In these various witnesses the wording of the passage differs in several particulars. (For examples of other intrusions into the Latin text of 1 John, see 2.17; 4.3; 5.6, and 20.)

(B) Internal Probabilities.

(1) As regards transcriptional probability, if the passage were original, no good reason can be found to account for its omission, either accidentally or intentionally, by copyists of hundreds of Greek manuscripts, and by translators of ancient versions.

(2) As regards intrinsic probability, the passage makes an awkward break in the sense.

For the story of how the spurious words came to be included in the Textus Receptus, see any critical commentary on 1 John, or Metzger, The Text of the New Testament, pp. 101 f.; cf. also Ezra Abbot, "I. John v. 7 and Luther's German Bible," in The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays (Boston, 1888), pp. 458-463.

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Some of my other threads


The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 2
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112848.0.html

How Is Salvation Achieved?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112833.0.html

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426

Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340

Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311

When Was Jesus Crucified?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665

On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam)
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353

Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528

Where Did Sin Originate?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291

For The Non-beleivers Only, 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957

Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631

Has Atheism Got Principle? No
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180

It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940

Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682

Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268

Great Books About Non-belief
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935

Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg1942137

Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992

Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155

Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158

Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099

Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975

Genesis Vs Genetics
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655

Jesus Genealogy
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616

£300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508

Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160

====================================================================================================

this is no issue at all except as an excuse for hypocrites out to malign the bible.

I mentioned on another thread (which u conveniently ignored as has been ur habit) that the scriptures we have today were constructed from ancient manuscripts.
Now none of these manuscripsts exist as a single copy. Several jewish sects made copies of these books . . . i mention the dead sea scrolls that were found in 1949 . . . hundreds of yrs after the bible as we know it was already in printed form.
We know that for example . . . there were 18 copies of the book of Isaiah, 39 copies of the pslams, 33 copies of Deuteronomy, 24 copies of the book of Genesis e.t.c.

Now due to age and conditions of these parchments . . . several of them would contain missing portions that can only be reconstructed by comparing ALL the copies together.
That is why some ancient copies of the bible may contain some portions of the scriptures not found in others. It all depends on which manuscripts you are using for translation.

Surprisingly ALL the copies of the bible found among the dead sea scrolls completely agree with the bible as we know it. One of the most surprising to me and what confirmed my belief in the bible was the book of Enoch . . .

The bible mentions the book of Enoch - Jude 1: 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Now if u search the entire bible you wont find anywhere that Enoch made this prophecy, infact the bible says so little about Him that we wonder where Bro Jude could have gotten this so-called prophecy.

Like you too i had my own doubts UNTIL i came across a copy of the book of Enoch discovered among the dead sea scrolls . . .
Here is what it had to say . . . Enoch 1: 9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

I must point out though that other copies of the book of Enoch had been found earlier than those of the dead sea scrolls.

Notice the near perfect quote that is in Jude compared to that in Enoch.

It may mean little to you, you may even scoff at it (Ps 1) but to me it is somewhat proof of the infallibility of the bible.

4Him:

this is no issue at all except as an excuse for hypocrites out to malign the bible.

I mentioned on another thread (which u conveniently ignored as has been your habit) that the scriptures we have today were constructed from ancient manuscripts.
Now none of these manuscripsts exist as a single copy. Several jewish sects made copies of these books . . . i mention the dead sea scrolls that were found in 1949 . . . hundreds of years after the bible as we know it was already in printed form.
We know that for example . . . there were 18 copies of the book of Isaiah, 39 copies of the pslams, 33 copies of Deuteronomy, 24 copies of the book of Genesis e.t.c.

Now due to age and conditions of these parchments . . . several of them would contain missing portions that can only be reconstructed by comparing ALL the copies together.
That is why some ancient copies of the bible may contain some portions of the scriptures not found in others. It all depends on which manuscripts you are using for translation.

Surprisingly ALL the copies of the bible found among the dead sea scrolls completely agree with the bible as we know it. One of the most surprising to me and what confirmed my belief in the bible was the book of Enoch . . .

The bible mentions the book of Enoch - Jude 1: 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Now if u search the entire bible you wont find anywhere that Enoch made this prophecy, infact the bible says so little about Him that we wonder where Bro Jude could have gotten this so-called prophecy.

Like you too i had my own doubts UNTIL i came across a copy of the book of Enoch discovered among the dead sea scrolls . . .
Here is what it had to say . . . Enoch 1: 9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

I must point out though that other copies of the book of Enoch had been found earlier than those of the dead sea scrolls.

Notice the near perfect quote that is in Jude compared to that in Enoch.

It may mean little to you, you may even scoff at it (Ps 1) but to me it is somewhat proof of the infallibility of the bible.

I posted this essentially to have people know the history of the text and the controversy around these text. I was not being polemical here. That is why the post contains little of my own words.


BTW, I agree about what you say about ancient manuscripts and the like.

therationa:

I posted this essentially to have people know the history of the text and the controversy around these text. I was not being polemical here. That is why the post contains little of my own words.

so essentially why did you post that text? I am also looking for "well informed discussion" rather than mindless copying and pasting.

Here we go.

4Him:

so essentially why did you post that text? I am also looking for "well informed discussion" rather than mindless copying and pasting.

Here we go.

Pardon me. This is the first time I have done a wholesale copy and paste. It is really not my style, but I thought the website was very well written and contained all the things I wanted conveyed but could not in my own words.

lol  ;d

therationa:


Pardon me. This is the first time I have done a wholesale copy and paste. It is really not my style, but I thought the website was very well written and contained all the things I wanted conveyed but could not in my own words.

all i see there is a quarrel over a comma. Is that what you expected me to read?

What is YOUR own point?

@therationa
The entire book of 1 John can be deleted from the NT without any effect on Christianity as a whole or Trinity in itself. So this comma question is neither here nor there. When will you learn to ask the right questions?

imhotep:

@therationa
The entire book of 1 John can be deleted from the NT without any effect on Christianity as a whole or Trinity in itself. So this comma question is neither here nor there. When will you learn to ask the right questions?

Imhotep, thank you thank you thank you thank you. Many many many thanks.

You have just made my point for me with these word. Christianity does not rely on verifiable facts. It relies on TRADITION which itself changes with time.

So there was a time when these words were NOT in 1 John 5: 7 - 8. The existing tradition at the time did not like the absence of words specifically called for the TRINITY, and inserted these words. So you see Christianity is driven by tradition. Just like the christian practices of today's christians are NOT the same as those of 2nd or 3rd century christians. Just like the christian practices of Nigerians are different from those of Brazilians.

BTW, I thought the ENTIRE bible was inspired. What does the very last words of the bible say Rev. 22: 18? Read it.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book."

I have made a small "addition" (pun intended ) to the original wording of my post. I wonder what fate awaits me for having altered the text.