@Pastor AIO,

Pastor AIO:

You this girl, you are really something else altogether.  Is it that you just miss the point or are you so utterly disingenuous?  Please can you tell me, What is the subject of this thread?  ie.  What are we talking about?

I am under the impression that we are talking about Pastors of various churches misquoting scripture in order to extort money from their congregation.  Please if I am wrong I'm happy to be corrected. 

Now if you are in agreement but are merely expanding the subject further by pointing out that the misquoting occurs in other instances too, then fair enough though it contributes nothing and if pursued is only a red herring.  However the impression I've got from reading your posts is that you are defending the extortion and saying that it is okay to extort money so because those who speak against it do so with 'assertions' which you have 'pointed out as false and untenable'.
In which case you will find me standing implacably opposed to you and the odious wickedness you support.

 

Lol, you give me more reasons than ever to conclude you have not taken the time to read my position on this matter at all; so your vexed assumptions are very telling indeed. Unless you are simply given to such attitudes without reason, how did you arrive at the inference that I was supporting any form of wickedness, Pastor AIO? Don't be so hasty to arrive at such ideas - and if you asked, I would be most obliged to point you to what I have constantly stated on this problem.

To be fair, I have constantly addressed your worries severally in discussing this subject in other threads. One ready and recent example is in the thread "To Tithe Or Not To Tithe?" where I gave a summary, including the following:

[list]

So what now?

    ►  Do I believe that the wrong notions should be exposed? Absolutely.

    ►  Do I believe that some of these wrong notions are still being taught? Absolutely.

    ►  Do I believe that Christians should be mandated to tithe? Absoluetly NOT.
         Why not? Because the ministry of tithing and giving is not a matter of compulsion,
         mandate or forceful demand - and I believe we are all agreed on that.
. . .

    ►  Do I believe that every teacher of tithe is correct? Absolutely NOT.

    ►  Do I believe that every opposer to tithes is wrong? Absolutely NOT.

    ►  Do I believe that we can strike a balance between these extremes? Absolutely.

    ►  Do I believe that many, many pastors have abused tithes? Absolutely.

. . .

    ►  Do I believe that these abuses should be condemned? ABSOLUTELY!

    ►  Does that mean that tithes are the basis of these abuses? Absolutely NOT

[/list]

At what point do you come to the inference that I was supporting the wickedness which you are happy to see in my post but cannot calmly see in those making false assertions being bantered by others?

All the same, thanks for your perceptions; but be that as it may, you're simply wrong.

Pastor AIO:

Reading the above I can only imagine two possible reasons why you would write something like that.

1)  You are an utter idiot

or 2)  You are the most disingenuous person I've ever met in my life.

I am grateful and thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Pastor AIO:

Where did you get the word 'Propose' which I highlighted above from.  Who has proposed anything?  And please don't come back with some twisted redefinition of what the word propose mean.  I brought up Gettier's problem to illustrate the fact that if someone arrives at the truth by faulty reasoning it doesn't make the Truth less Truth.  The fact that the farmer believes that his Cow is in the field when in fact all he saw was a black and white bag does not negate the fact that the Cow is in the field.

I stated this: "When I read the sort of thing you asked in the highlighted above, there's just one question that crosses my mind: "is it okay to propose dubious arguments to justify anything?" That did not say I was pointing to you as proposing anything - and I see no reason why you could be so suggestive as though I was going to redefine anything. What is the unease in this matter, Pastor AIO? Look at it this way: someone tells me that "it does not matter to propose a dubious argument" (exact quote of a gentleman I chatted with in YIM on the same subject) - and I'm just thinking broadly - "is it okay to propose dubious argument to justify anything?" If it is okay, why are they so deeply offended to accuse others of "manipulating Scripture" and yet claim "it does not matter to propose a dubious argument" for what they assert? People who oppose this subject are often the ones to cry that men of God should speak the truth - my concern is that these fellows are not willing to put their own recommendation to the test. Why should that upset you so much?

Pastor AIO:

The Truth is the Truth is the Truth and there will always be strong arguments to support the Truth.

Even if those "strong arguments" are nothing more than "dubious arguments"?

Pastor AIO:

However if someone arrives at the Truth by a dubious argument that is no reason to disregard the Truth.  Of course you can question if the person really KNOWS the Truth even if he BELIEVES the Truth.  Somehow I get the feeling that this argument is going to go totally over your head.

 

I asked a simple question, and I'm wondering: when has 'dubious arguments' become a virtue to some when practically these same fellows will never allow that same thing in those they oppose?

Pastor AIO:

ps.  I don't know what Fausse Patte is.  Could you please explain it to me?

Fausse patte - "false leg", a misleading notion as the basis for an argument.

Pastor AIO:

In which case you will find me standing implacably opposed to you and the odious wickedness you support.
. . .

Reading the above I can only imagine two possible reasons why you would write something like that.

1) You are an utter idiot

or 2) You are the most disingenuous person I've ever met in my life.

Just a few other posts to show my wonder that you had drawn such hasty and untrue inferences as highlighted above. In the same thread hinted earlier, I stated this:

[list]

pilgrim.1:
However, what are the things that I agree with in Enigma's? They are those which I had highlighted in quoting him, particularly the fact that he mentioned -

_______________________________________________
. . . no one condemns tithers or even their choice to do so -
especially where it is an informed choice; it is the false or
wrong teaching of it that invokes vigorous opposition.
_______________________________________________

Without even highlighting anything now, I believe it is easy to see that my agreement is in accord with my previous posts:

(a) ► Do I believe that many, many pastors have abused tithes? Absolutely.

► Do I believe that these abuses should be condemned? ABSOLUTELY!

► Does that mean that tithes are the basis of these abuses? Absolutely NOT.

(b) I aslo explained that tithes are not the basis for the abuses; rather it is greed
(or covetousness - 2 Peter 2:3) that lies at the root of the abuses.

(c) People also have abused the Christian ministry, haven't they?
But is it the Christian ministry that is false? If not, why attack Christian ministry?

(d) Others have abused the Lord's Supper (even selling it in neat small pacakges);
but is it the Supper itself that is false? If not, why should we attack the Supper?

(e) Some yet have abused spiritual gifts (e.g., healing, tongues, miracles, etc);
but is the problem the spiritual gifts themselves? If not, why should we
disdain these gifts and use them to attack anybody?

In just the same way, people have abused tithes - but tithes are not the problem; rather, something other than tithes is responsible for these abuses - GREED (besides others). This is why I have appealed that we should not lose focus and begin to use a Biblical subject to attack anybody - whether we agree or disagree with them, let us leave all judgements in God's hands and rather help ourselves understand what is before us. It is for this reason that I shy away from the idea that TITHES are false doctrines; infact, Enigma has captured it in very few words aptly: it is the "false or wrong teaching of it" that I agree with 1 million percent. The problem is that so many times some of us use tithes to attack people and that is why the slips often occur in the statement that "tithes is a false doctrine' - no they are not! It is rather teaching the wrong things about it that is unhealthy.

I hope that helps clear the issue?

[/list]

A few months ago, I was at a friend’s church and during the tithes and offering time, instead of the usual singing and dancing, the ushers placed the offering buckets in front of the church. Then the pastor announces that tithes givers should come up and drop their money envelops. They did and then stood there for special prayers for tithe givers. When that was done and over with, we went to back to the normal singing and dancing for offering.

Of course I had to ask what that was all about and my friend told me that they started doing it like that because the Pastor said people have not been paying their tithes and those whose accounts showed they hadn’t paid tithes got letters in the mail, much like you would from a creditor but worded more churchy.

For the sake of propriety, I won’t post a copy of the letter because I am not about pointing fingers, I only posted this because I read in one of the comments that tithes payers don’t have a gun to their heads forcing them to pay.

You don’t need to put a gun to someone’s head for them to pay tithes when you can embarrass and/or guilt them into paying it.

Of course I had to ask what that was all about and my friend told me that they started doing it like that because the Pastor said people have not been paying their tithes and those whose accounts showed they hadn’t paid tithes got letters in the mail, much like you would from a creditor but worded more churchy.

Naija church abi?

KarmaMod:

Naija church abi?

Of course, we went there for Wedding Thanksgiving. It was an appalling sight, I tell you.

Cant pay me enough to go to Naija churches anymore

pilgrim.1:

@Pastor AIO,
 

Lol, you give me more reasons than ever to conclude you have not taken the time to read my position on this matter at all; so your vexed assumptions are very telling indeed. Unless you are simply given to such attitudes without reason, how did you arrive at the inference that I was supporting any form of wickedness, Pastor AIO? Don't be so hasty to arrive at such ideas - and if you asked, I would be most obliged to point you to what I have constantly stated on this problem.

To be fair, I have constantly addressed your worries severally in discussing this subject in other threads. One ready and recent example is in the thread "To Tithe Or Not To Tithe?" where I gave a summary, including the following:

[list][/list]

At what point do you come to the inference that I was supporting the wickedness which you are happy to see in my post but cannot calmly see in those making false assertions being bantered by others?

All the same, thanks for your perceptions; but be that as it may, you're simply wrong.

I am grateful and thank you from the bottom of my heart.

So I wonder, having placed this at the top of your list, . . . .

► Do I believe that the wrong notions should be exposed? Absolutely.

. . . what exactly is the gripe to have with this thread and the poster. Did KunleOshob say that tithing is wrong or did he say that the current practice of tithing is wrong?

pilgrim.1:


At what point do you come to the inference that I was supporting the wickedness which you are happy to see in my post but cannot calmly see in those making false assertions being bantered by others?

When you jump unto a thread that is talking about the abuse of scriptures in order to extort money from the gullible and attempt to distract and pervert the direction of the argument with red herrings and references to conversations not only irrelevant to the thread but not even from this Forum then you are a supporter of the extortion. Full stop. I'm a football supporter. When I watch matches I don't jump onto the pitch to try to score for my team, but I try to encourage my team and discourage the opposition with cheers and boos. Throughout this thread, you, dear, have hurled discouragements and attempted to distract which makes you a supporter. No one here said willfully paying a tithe is wrong. KunleOshob and others have addressed throughout the coercion, both direct and subtle, of the gullible to pay tithe.
It is quite possible that you are not aware of what you are doing. I am beginning to suspect that your motivation is not conscious but rather it has a spiritual source.

I am grateful and thank you from the bottom of my heart.

No, you're not! You're being sarcastic from the bottom of your heart. I really hope you take what I said into proper consideration.

pilgrim.1:



I stated this: "When I read the sort of thing you asked in the highlighted above, there's just one question that crosses my mind: "is it okay to propose dubious arguments to justify anything?" That did not say I was pointing to you as proposing anything - and I see no reason why you could be so suggestive as though I was going to redefine anything. What is the unease in this matter, Pastor AIO? Look at it this way: someone tells me that "it does not matter to propose a dubious argument" (exact quote of a gentleman I chatted with in YIM on the same subject) - and I'm just thinking broadly - "is it okay to propose dubious argument to justify anything?" If it is okay, why are they so deeply offended to accuse others of "manipulating Scripture" and yet claim "it does not matter to propose a dubious argument" for what they assert? People who oppose this subject are often the ones to cry that men of God should speak the truth - my concern is that these fellows are not willing to put their own recommendation to the test. Why should that upset you so much?

I would suggest that you continue to take up this argument with the gentleman on YIM who I know nothing of, and I'm not sure even exists.

As regards your redefining terms, you only have to reread every other thread you've contributed to and you'll see the reason why I should suggest what I did.

and as to why I should be upset (in bold), it is not the matter per se that upsets me. Rather it is that you should choose to discuss it right in the middle of another thread dealing with another subject of discussion. You didn't so much as make an introduction such as "well I was on another forum and somebody said such and such which I disagreed with . . " and then show how it is relevant to the present discussion topic. If you can't relate it to the present thread, and in fact you can't then there is nothing wrong with you starting up a whole new thread on the subject since it is biting you so much.

Quote from: Pastor AIO on Yesterday at 11:17:22 PM
The Truth is the Truth is the Truth and there will always be strong arguments to support the Truth.

Even if those "strong arguments" are nothing more than "dubious arguments"?

Quote from: Pastor AIO on Yesterday at 11:17:22 PM
However if someone arrives at the Truth by a dubious argument that is no reason to disregard the Truth. Of course you can question if the person really KNOWS the Truth even if he BELIEVES the Truth. Somehow I get the feeling that this argument is going to go totally over your head.


I asked a simple question, and I'm wondering: when has 'dubious arguments' become a virtue to some when practically these same fellows will never allow that same thing in those they oppose?

Strong arguments are never dubious arguments, stop dribbling yourself. Your responses have no connection whatsoever with my statements.

@Pastor AIO,

Pastor AIO:

So I wonder, having placed this at the top of your list, . . . .
. . . what exactly is the gripe to have with this thread and the poster. Did KunleOshob say that tithing is wrong or did he say that the current practice of tithing is wrong?

Have you really been following my posts, or are you are just getting upset and deliberately refusing to see reason? I have no problem with what anyone wants to do with their money - but using a false premise to attack people is unhealthy, and I have stated that same thing over and over again in this thread. A reminder:
[list]"Kunle, I'm not attacking you. . . rather, I invite all non-tithers with a simple challenge: refrain from using false assertions to attack anyone so that we can all discuss honestly, healthily, without sanctimonious pride, and for our own good. Is that too much to bear?"[/list]

People hold differing views on this subject; but is it too hard for people to share their views without recourse to false assertions and castigations? I am not the only person concerned about this, and others have pointed out that same thing:
[list]"One man believes has conviction that the payment of tithes is mandatory while another man is having his own conviction that it is not. This to me is not enough reason to be confronting one another with malicious words in a forum like this"[/list]

When i entered this thread, that was the main concern I have been pointing out to him; and that is what I have been consistently bearing out. It is not any worry of mine if it best suits those opposing tithes to constantly be derisive, which was why I asked sometime recently: what justifies accusations (personalised or generalised) at anybody at all?

Pastor AIO:

When you jump unto a thread that is talking about the abuse of scriptures in order to extort money from the gullible and attempt to distract and pervert the direction of the argument with red herrings and references to conversations not only irrelevant to the thread but not even from this Forum then you are a supporter of the extortion. Full stop.

I have not at any time justified extortion. Please go and show me where I ever tried to do so. The accusation of manipulating Scripture is one thing that many tithe opposers will do - whether on this forum or outside: and I have shown it several times. This again brings us back to the simple query as to why these fellows will seek to justify what they cannot condone from others.

Pastor AIO:

I'm a football supporter. When I watch matches I don't jump onto the pitch to try to score for my team, but I try to encourage my team and discourage the opposition with cheers and boos. Throughout this thread, you, dear, have hurled discouragements and attempted to distract which makes you a supporter.

Makes me a 'supporter' of what - of the same abuses that you have failed to see in your camp?

Pastor AIO:

No one here said willfully paying a tithe is wrong. KunleOshob and others have addressed throughout the coercion, both direct and subtle, of the gullible to pay tithe.
It is quite possible that you are not aware of what you are doing. I am beginning to suspect that your motivation is not conscious but rather it has a spiritual source.

The coercion is a retired argument - i have also extensively discussed that very thing and shouted it many times that they should stop using that repeated excuse to evade the real gist. If one is going to be honest without recourse to dubious argument, then such a person should also be willing to acknowledge that i have several times shouted that same issue as unnecessary: see here as an example where I extensively discussed this point!
[list]B God Does NOT Force TITHES on Anyone Who is Averse To It
. . .
However, I also noted that:

"tithing is not a matter of "REQUIRED" (lest people see it as asking that it is a matter of "COERCION" and "COMPULSION"."

It is important that I made that distinction from the onset, so that we may not mistake an "ordinance" for "required" (i.e., COERCION, or COMPULSION). Although the Lord ordained it, He does not coerce or compel anyone to give their tithes. The principle here is that the Lord would always have our hearts in a healthy state when we bring our offerings and tithes - and that principle is an attitude of WILLINGNESS, and it is the one thing that we find in both the OT and NT of those who responded to God's commandment (or 'ordinance') on this matter[/list]

That same point have been severally highlighted in my discussions -

   1. my response to obatoro

   2. my response [url=http://]to KunleOshob[/url], viz:

[list]I don't think you have noticed how many people ackowledge that tithes have nothing to do with the idea of ~

          DEMAND,
          COERSION,
          COMPULSION,
          FORCE,
          CAJOLING,
          MANIPULATION,
          INDOCTRINATION,
          . . . or any other ONOMATOMANIA!![/list]

- and I repeated that same thing several times for those who have always assumed that it is only in reference to coercion, compulsion, force, manipulation, etc. If "willfully paying" tithe is not wrong (reading your quote above), then what has been the problem that tithe-opposers cannot be consistent to see that there are so many people who tithe out of their own free hearts? Why constantly harp on these onomatomania as if that is all there ever was about tithes?

Pastor AIO:

No, you're not! You're being sarcastic from the bottom of your heart. I really hope you take what I said into proper consideration.

I thank you again from the bottom of my heart.

Pastor AIO:

I would suggest that you continue to take up this argument with the gentleman on YIM who I know nothing of, and I'm not sure even exists.

Is there any law that says I could not refer to issues from outside the forum? Have other people who oppose tithes not harvested arguments from other websites and fora to augment their views? I'm not asking you to believe anything about the people I discuss with; but why does that bother you at all?

Pastor AIO:

As regards your redefining terms, you only have to reread every other thread you've contributed to and you'll see the reason why I should suggest what I did.

I'm not redefining anything you cannot confirm when you check them. You should also be concerned with the careless words being bantered by those who cannot sustain them.

Pastor AIO:

and as to why I should be upset (in bold), it is not the matter per se that upsets me. Rather it is that you should choose to discuss it right in the middle of another thread dealing with another subject of discussion. You didn't so much as make an introduction such as "well I was on another forum and somebody said such and such which I disagreed with . . " and then show how it is relevant to the present discussion topic. If you can't relate it to the present thread, and in fact you can't then there is nothing wrong with you starting up a whole new thread on the subject since it is biting you so much.

My apologies you're a late comer; and you are free to start such a thread if it bites you so much. Pastor AIO, I have hinted before that I've held extensive discussions with others outside the forum - maybe that did not strike anyone; and there's nothing wrong for me to acknowledge that readers may not have caught the connection. At least we can be open to see that referring to other discussions is not a matter that occurs only in mine; so why then have you failed to see the same thing in others' posts? But again, why would this even get you so upset for any reason? If what I am saying is wrong, could it not be better that we point them out? Please don't be even more upset, but I wonder why people who oppose tithing easily get offended when we point out that what they recommend is what others they castigate are also doing! Why being upset because these things are pointed out?

Pastor AIO:

Strong arguments are never dubious arguments, stop dribbling yourself. Your responses have no connection whatsoever with my statements.

Then you should never have asked if it mattered that "someone arrives at the right conclusion via dubious arguments". Strong arguments, yes; but dubious arguments? Hmm.

pilgrim.1:

but I wonder why people who oppose tithing easily get offended when we point out that what they recommend is what others they castigate are also doing! Why being upset because these things are pointed out?

What do we recommend As far i am am concerned giving to the poor is far more inportant than giving to the church.
James 1:27:
27 Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you.


I am even more discouraged from giving offerings to the church now since the money is not used for what it was originally meant for and that is helping the needy

Acts 4:32-35:
32 All the believers were united in heart and mind. And they felt that what they owned was not their own, so they shared everything they had. 33 The apostles testified powerfully to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and God’s great blessing was upon them all. 34 There were no needy people among them, because those who owned land or houses would sell them 35 and bring the money to the apostles to give to those in need.

@Pilgrim.1
I would really like us to discuss this passage deut 14: 22-29 which clearly defines and explains what tithing is all about.


Deuteronomy 14:22-29:

22 “You must set aside a tithe of your crops—one-tenth of all the crops you harvest each year. 23 Bring this tithe to the designated place of worship—the place the Lord your God chooses for his name to be honored—and eat it there in his presence. This applies to your tithes of grain, new wine, olive oil, and the firstborn males of your flocks and herds. Doing this will teach you always to fear the Lord your God.

24 “Now when the Lord your God blesses you with a good harvest, the place of worship he chooses for his name to be honored might be too far for you to bring the tithe. 25 If so, you may sell the tithe portion of your crops and herds, put the money in a pouch, and go to the place the Lord your God has chosen. 26 When you arrive, you may use the money to buy any kind of food you want—cattle, sheep, goats, wine, or other alcoholic drink. Then feast there in the presence of the Lord your God and celebrate with your household. 27 And do not neglect the Levites in your town, for they will receive no allotment of land among you.

28 “At the end of every third year, bring the entire tithe of that year’s harvest and store it in the nearest town. 29 Give it to the Levites, who will receive no allotment of land among you, as well as to the foreigners living among you, the orphans, and the widows in your towns, so they can eat and be satisfied. Then the Lord your God will bless you in all your work.




My questions are as follows:
1. Why do most churches never refer to these passage that clearly explains tithes when preaching about tithes
2.Why is tithes not practised as describe in this verse? Cos the mordern version of tithing from income as no clear cut basis in scripture.
3. Why don't pastors preach we are to eat out of our tthes?
4. Why don't they preach it is also meant for the less priviledge as stated in the bible?
5 Why do they always preach from Malachi 3 :10 which is rather vague and does not clearly explain the practise of tithing thus subject to manipulation and imposition of another meaning.

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

What do we recommend As far i am am concerned giving to the poor is far more inportant than giving to the church.
James 1:27:
27 Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you.

I already pointed out that this issue about supporting the poor is a matter expressed in BOTH the OT and NT!! Our problem many times is that we are clapping our hands for one in the mistaken idea that it is just a NT thing and has nothing to do with the OT!

KunleOshob:

I am even more discouraged from giving offerings to the church now since the money is not used for what it was originally meant for and that is helping the needy

Okay. That is your worry - I have that worry as well for many other people. The point is that I cannot speak for everybody, although I am blessed to know that where I fellowship in the UK, the pastor are very open about this matter and nobody feels dismayed about anything.

KunleOshob:

Acts 4:32-35:
32 All the believers were united in heart and mind. And they felt that what they owned was not their own, so they shared everything they had. 33 The apostles testified powerfully to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and God’s great blessing was upon them all. 34 There were no needy people among them, because those who owned land or houses would sell them 35 and bring the money to the apostles to give to those in need.

Giving to the needy was one thing, but that is not the only thing about giving, was it?

Kunle,

KunleOshob:

@Pilgrim.1
I would really like us to discuss this passage deut 14: 22-29 which clearly defines and explains what tithing is all about.

I'm glad that after a long and constant call, you are now responding to my appeal to invite a discussion. More of that, I deeply appreciate it. As regards the meaning, definition and explanation of what tithing is all about, Deuteronomy 14 does not cover everything. Tithes in the OT is not all about and only in those three verses; and in the appropriate thread I have taken the time to share extensively on this matter. Although those who were averse to the subject were not patient enough to see reason, I relaxed about it in hope that we may sometime have the fortune to talk in a healthy manner. This is why I entered this thread with that same concern, although it was misread by a few, and up until now i don't know what has been upsetting anyone!

KunleOshob:

My questions are as follows:
1. Why do most churches never refer to these passage that clearly explains tithes when preaching about tithes
2.Why is tithes not practised as describe in this verse? because the mordern version of tithing from income as no clear cut basis in scripture.
3. Why don't pastors preach we are to eat out of our tthes?
4. Why don't they preach it is also meant for the less priviledge as stated in the bible?
5 Why do they always preach from Malachi 3 :10 which is rather vague and does not clearly explain the practise of tithing thus subject to manipulation and imposition of another meaning.

I have questions as well - and because when tithers ask questions and those opposed never seek to answer them (never mind dismissing them), I have hitherto refrained from sharing anything and let people talk on and on and on about what they have no clues about. Fair deal? If not, why are people happy to ask questions and never answer those that are proffered to them? Is that also fair?

However, if you're going to invite people to discuss this subject, let me begin by observing the following:

(1) You don't know how many churches preach about tithes and "never refer" to the passages you quoted. I know of so many churches that do so and share the principles of caring for others (not just the poor, but also others engaged in missionary work and special ministries like those committed to Prison Ministries). We often don't know how many people never emphasize tithes but preach and give them - and there are manifest blessings attending upon them! How come people tend to just assume people NEVER refer to some passages and teach the whole truth much more than we know?

(2) When God spoke about tithes and offerings, was He categorically bending anyone's neck to it? The issue is simple for me - and I have shared on that very same question in the relevant thread.

(3) We should never try to conclude that what some pastors do is what every pastor does! If you have never come across pastors who teach people about tithing, please don't assume that what you don't know must be the same for every single pastor.

(4) There are pastors who teach about how tithes could be managed in their churches - they do not make it a law for other churches to adhere to. Like I said earlier, it is not only the poor that is pointed out for this ministry, and we need not assume that is all there is to know about this matter.

(5) Manipulation happens on every side, and I have shown that it is to be deplored on every side - not just only from one side. Our aim in holding these discussions is that we "observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality" (1 Tim. 5:21). Is it okay to decry manipulation from others while we justify it in our own camps? From whatever side, any thing we cannot condone from others should not be tolerated in our own camps - choose as best we may. That is why i have been calling your attention about borrowed cliches that you cannot sustain - we may sometimes be wrong; but when things are pointed out, we should have the grace to acknowledge them rather than get "pissed off" for people showing us anything.

That said, yes - I am willing to attend upon these issues in a healthy manner as I offered. if that is not possible and is not going to happen, what then is the reason for inviting any discussion in the first place?

Cheers.

@Pastor AIO,

I sincerely hope all is well and you would not allow my replies (or anyone’s replies) to upset you. There's no need for that. If your whole concern is all about what KunleOshob has argued, I would simply refer to your query earlier and show you what you missed in simple terms:

Pastor AIO: So I wonder, having placed this at the top of your list, . . . .
. . . what exactly is the gripe to have with this thread and the poster. Did KunleOshob say that tithing is wrong or did he say that the current practice of tithing is wrong?

“Did KunleOshob say that tithing is wrong. . .?” As a response to that query, this is what KunleOshob has said in essence:

KunleOshob: As a concluding part to this article, I would want to refer us to the book of Hebrews which was written to the early Christians, this provides irrefutable proof that Christians are not meant to pay tithes as the priesthood of our lord Jesus Christ does not require it. . .
. . .The above passage is self explanatory and it’s states clearly that the practice of tithing has no place under the priestly order of our lord Jesus Christ in fact the passage suggests that the collection of tithes is belittling of the priestly order of our lord Jesus Christ. It states that it is wrong for us as Christians to receive or pay tithes and is not relevant to us as Christians because we belong to a superior priestly order

Did you miss this clear pointers all along before getting upset with me?

[list](1) Pastor AIO: “Did KunleOshob say that tithing is wrong . . .?”

(2) KunleOshob: “it is wrong for us as Christians to receive or pay tithes”[/list]

Is that a fair answer now. . . or you are still unnecessarily upset with me?

Shalom.

pilgrim.1:

@Pastor AIO,

I sincerely hope all is well and you would not allow my replies (or anyone’s replies) to upset you. There's no need for that. If your whole concern is all about what KunleOshob has argued, I would simply refer to your query earlier and show you what you missed in simple terms:

“Did KunleOshob say that tithing is wrong. . .?” As a response to that query, this is what KunleOshob has said in essence:

Did you miss this clear pointers all along before getting upset with me?

[list](1) Pastor AIO: “Did KunleOshob say that tithing is wrong . . .?”

(2) KunleOshob: “it is wrong for us as Christians to receive or pay tithes”[/list]

Is that a fair answer now. . . or you are still unnecessarily upset with me?

Shalom.

I see your point. To say that it is wrong to pay tithes is an excessive reaction and has no foundation. My position is that though the paying of tithes is not wrong in and of itself, the coerced paying of tithes as practiced in many churches, especially the nigerian churches that I am aware of, is wrong. Further more, this false practice is so widespread as to warrant a proper discussion of it throughout the whole christian community.

Anyway, I certainly do not support the position that the Paying of tithes is Wrong. So I owe you an apology.

@Pastor AIO,

Thanks for your response. I also apologise where mine may have been vague, and hope that they are more clearly presented in future. Regards.

pilgrim.1:

I have questions as well - and because when tithers ask questions and those opposed never seek to answer them (never mind dismissing them), I have hitherto refrained from sharing anything and let people talk on and on and on about what they have no clues about. Fair deal? If not, why are people happy to ask questions and never answer those that are proffered to them? Is that also fair?

There absolutely no question i have been asked on tithes that i never answered and i have alwys been able to justify my submissions on tithes biblically

pilgrim.1:

(1) You don't know how many churches preach about tithes and "never refer" to the passages you quoted. I know of so many churches that do so and share the principles of caring for others (not just the poor, but also others engaged in missionary work and special ministries like those committed to Prison Ministries). We often don't know how many people never emphasize tithes but preach and give them - and there are manifest blessings attending upon them! How come people tend to just assume people NEVER refer to some passages and teach the whole truth much more than we know?

The fact that most christians who have heard several sermons on tithes are not even aware of deut 14: 22-29 and several other scriptures which deal with tithes is enough evidence that most preachers don't preach them. Most of my friends are shocked when i refer them to deut 14. Most pastors just preach form Malachi 3 since it is vague on explaination and subject to manipulation.

Pastor AIO:

I see your point. To say that it is wrong to pay tithes is an excessive reaction and has no foundation. My position is that though the paying of tithes is not wrong in and of itself, the coerced paying of tithes as practiced in many churches, especially the nigerian churches that I am aware of, is wrong. Further more, this false practice is so widespread as to warrant a proper discussion of it throughout the whole christian community.

Anyway, I certainly do not support the position that the Paying of tithes is Wrong. So I owe you an apology.

Well to say it is wrong as solid biblical foundation besides you have to remember that biblical tithing is totally alien to the type of tithing going on in churches today. The passage below explains why it is wong for pastors to preach tithes, remember only the descendants of levites who don't exist today were eligible to collect tithes meant for Godin those days;

Hebrews 7:5-18:
5 Now the law of Moses required that the priests, who are descendants of Levi, must collect a tithe from the rest of the people of Israel,[a] who are also descendants of Abraham. 6 But Melchizedek, who was not a descendant of Levi, collected a tenth from Abraham. And Melchizedek placed a blessing upon Abraham, the one who had already received the promises of God. 7 And without question, the person who has the power to give a blessing is greater than the one who is blessed.
8 The priests who collect tithes are men who die, so Melchizedek is greater than they are, because we are told that he lives on. 9 In addition, we might even say that these Levites—the ones who collect the tithe—paid a tithe to Melchizedek when their ancestor Abraham paid a tithe to him. 10 For although Levi wasn’t born yet, the seed from which he came was in Abraham’s body when Melchizedek collected the tithe from him.

11 So if the priesthood of Levi, on which the law was based, could have achieved the perfection God intended, why did God need to establish a different priesthood, with a priest in the order of Melchizedek instead of the order of Levi and Aaron?

12 [b]And if the priesthood is changed, the law must also be changed to permit it. 13 For the priest we are talking about belongs to a different tribe, whose members have never served at the altar as priests. 14 What I mean is, our Lord came from the tribe of Judah, and Moses never mentioned priests coming from that tribe.
15 This change has been made very clear since a different priest, who is like Melchizedek, has appeared. 16 Jesus became a priest, not by meeting the physical requirement of belonging to the tribe of Levi, but by the power of a life that cannot be destroyed. 17 And the psalmist pointed this out when he prophesied,

“You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”

18 Yes, the old requirement about the priesthood was set aside because it was weak and useless.

Now it is clear and evident from the above passage that the requirement that was set aside was that of tithes mentioned earlier in verse 5. the reason was then given in verse 13 which indicated that it was becos Jesus christ is not from the tribe of priests(levites) who are ordained by law to receive tithes. Verse 18 finalizes it all. Hence the reason i stated that it was wrong to preach tithes and pay it under the levitical priesthood rules since it as clearly been set aside and described as weak and useless. That is not to say a christian cannot out of his own free volution decide to tithe or give any % of ince he decides to the church.

KunleOshob:

There absolutely no question i have been asked on tithes that i never answered and i have alwys been able to justify my submissions on tithes biblically

That is what you think, and I can let it pass. Did you answer sleekymag's questions (here), even after he reminded you on the same issues (here)? I may have missed it; but I appreciate your statement here.

KunleOshob:

The fact that most christians who have heard several sermons on tithes are not even aware of deut 14: 22-29 and several other scriptures which deal with tithes is enough evidence that most preachers don't preach them. Most of my friends are shocked when i refer them to deut 14. Most pastors just preach form Malachi 3 since it is vague on explaination and subject to manipulation.

This does not warrant your attitude to the subject. We should all seek to discuss, not make assertions too broadly as to ignore others. Like Pastor AIO has said, this subject should warrant a proper discussion of it throughout the whole christian community; but if we begin by being too closed to the views of others, how is a healthy discussion ever going to be achieved?

pilgrim.1:

That is what you think, and I can let it pass. Did you answer sleekymag's questions (here), even after he reminded you on the same issues (here)? I may have missed it; but I appreciate your statement here.

This does not warrant your attitude to the subject. We should all seek to discuss, not make assertions too braodly as to ignore others. Like Pastor AIO has said, this subject should warrant a proper discussion of it throughout the whole christian community; but if we begin by being too closed to the views of others, how is a healthy discussion ever going to be achieved?

I responded to sleekymags post their and stated that he was just trying to confuse issues as none of the questions he asked even had anything to do with tithes. He was trying to draw parrallels by making unrelated inferals and asking mischievious rhetorical questions.

KunleOshob:

I responded to sleekymags post their and stated that he was just trying to confuse issues as none of the questions he asked even had anything to do with tithes. He was trying to draw parrallels by making unrelated inferals and asking mischievious rhetorical questions.

I said I would let it pass and had hoped it won't be such a bother to you. If you would rather be too concerned about it, then understand that dismissing his questions with that excuse is not the same thing as answering them. Honestly take a look at those 12 questions he offered and tell me you don't find anything there related to tithes! If you didn't bother to look at them, that is okay and understandable - but if after looking at them and didn't feel like answering any one of them, you can't pretend that there was no question there related to tithes. One only has to go there and see the first 5 questions, then #8, #11 and #12. You were not mandated to answer if you felt you didn't want to; but please try not being so dismissive.

@Pastor AIO
Further to my previous post on why it is wrong to pay tithes based on the levitical law, another way of looking at it is that one is placing himself under the curse stated in Malachi 3. As christians we have been set free from all those curses cos we have been bought by the blood of Christ. Paying tithesbbased on law is tatanmount to not having faith in the blood of Jesus which was shed to redeem us. However if the tithes is being paid from a willing heart(not under compulsion) then it is pefectly ok. But the truth is that most people pay tithes based on the promises and the curses of Malachi3: 8-10 which their pastors use to stimulate and threaten them. Contrary to what pilgrim.1 said, most people that tithes are not aware that as christians they are not under any obligation to tithe.

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:

But the truth is that most people pay tithes based on the promises and the curses of Malachi3: 8-10 which their pastors use to stimulate and threaten them. Contrary to what pilgrim.1 said, most people that tithes are not aware that as christians they are not under any obligation to tithe.

Why is it that you cannot discuss your problem about tithes and leave it at that until you have worried yourself about what pilgrim.1 says or has said? Did I ever say that most people that tithe are under any obligation to do so? I find this tawdry attitude of yours a bit of a bore these days.

I have tried to be reasonable, discussed my position in the relevant thread, made clear that my persuasion to tithe is not borne out of Judaism, as well constantly invited dialogue and calm discussions on such a passionate subject - borne out of the extensive discussions I have had with so many, many people across the world from diverse backgrounds and denominations! You may not be aware, but over 95% of these people amazed me when they calmly responded that they tithe but not under any legalistic obligations or feelings of compulsion to do so! You should seek to be reasonable and consistent in your position and not be shifting the goal posts every which way between yes and no about this matter.

KunleOshob:

Further to my previous post on why it is wrong to pay tithes based on the levitical law, another way of looking at it is that one is placing himself under the curse stated in Malachi 3. As christians we have been set free from all those curses because we have been bought by the blood of Christ.

That does not address the Law as a whole - and that is why I have appealed time and again that you go and examine the meaning of the term and see what Romans 3:31 says. I don't want to drag this as another argument because I know that verse has been an enigma to you; but people should be careful in their assumptions about the meaning of the Law.

KunleOshob:

Paying tithesbbased on law is tatanmount to not having faith in the blood of Jesus which was shed to redeem us. However if the tithes is being paid from a willing heart(not under compulsion) then it is pefectly ok.

This is why I keep saying your ever changing goal posts is a serious problem on this subject. "Is it wrong for Christians to tithe?" - that is the basic question many people are asking! Some may give tithes as a matter of appealing to the Law; others may not refer to the Law and yet they also tithe. In this instance, both sets of people are doing the same thing: they are tithing! For me, I have maintained consistently that my persuasions to tithe are not founded upon the tenets of Judaism, and I would wish that many people come to understand for themselves why they also tithe without appealing to the Levitical priesthood of Judaism.

But you have maintained up until recently when it was blown open, that "it is wrong for us as Christians to receive or pay tithes" - whether it is as regards the Law or as regards the NT! You're only now coming back with these compromising excuses to tell us the opposite of what you have maintained! On what basis then (Law or NT) are you now arguing that "it is perfectly okay" to give tithes? You see why I asked you guys to calm down and allow for balance - because in the long run it would become apparent that your arguments are inconsistent! This talk about giving tithes out of a willing heart is a matter of both the OT and NT, and I have shown the many verses in both instances where people responded with willing hearts! "As for me, in the uprightness of mine heart I have willingly offered all these things: and now have I seen with joy thy people, which are present here, to offer willingly unto thee" - 1 Chron. 29:17 and Exodus 35 show us the principle of willingness of heart, and these are only few!

Please, please. . . let's try to be consistent. If "willing hearts" is a matter of both the OT and NT, why did you argue long and hard that "it is wrong for us as Christians to receive or pay tithes" - which is the opposite of your admission now that "it is perfectly okay" for people to tithe, if done with willing hearts?!? Thank you for the compromise - at least we can have a good day to open the discussion that you have invited us to, by noting your admission that "it is perfectly okay" to tithe (nevermind that "willing hearts" is the very same thing God showed us in both Testaments). Enjoy.

There are a few things that I'd like to say about this thread.  

1) in the opening post KunleOshob said:

The above passage is self explanatory and it’s states clearly that the practice of tithing has no place under the priestly order of our lord Jesus Christ in fact the passage suggests that the collection of tithes is belittling of the priestly order of our lord Jesus Christ. It states that it is wrong for us as Christians to receive or pay tithes and is not relevant to us as Christians because we belong to a superior priestly order.

Once again I would like to state that this article is not meant for us as Christians to revolt against the church or our pastors, it is just meant to establish the biblical truth about tithes and remove the yoke from people who labour to pay tithes ( not required of them by God) while their pastors are living luxuriously.

I think that the part highlighted in bold in the quote sets the context for everything that KunleOshob says.  His statement that the paying of tithes is wrong should be seen in light of his intent to 'remove the yoke from people who labour to pay tithes'.  When someone says to me they are paying a tithe I immediately think of the compulsory payment imposed on the Jews.  Actually a Tithe merely means a Tenth.  To tithe therefore can only be understood in the context of this law otherwise telling someone that you are Tenth-ing your money is nonsense in the english language.  To tithe is to give in accordance with the Levitical law.  

Christian are still asked to give to the needy and to church, but to call such giving a tithe is just a conflation.  

2)  If Pilgrim1 takes objection to the fact that KunleOshob said “it is wrong for us as Christians to receive or pay tithes” regardless of the context in which he has said it, then I think that her objection should be given due consideration.  Perhaps Kunle would find it a bit pedantic, but let's look on the positive side.  From what I can tell it seems that the spirit is inspiring KunleOshob with this message for christians and it will do no harm for him to consider what she is pointing out so that in future as he continues to deliver this message he is more careful of his choice of words.  Ultimately she is in fact helping you to sharpen your delivery of the message.  
Saying it is wrong to pay tithes is like saying that it is wrong to be circumcised.  It would be wrong to pay tithe or be circumcised under the old law thinking that that is what is going to save you.

3)

KunleOshob:

@Pastor AIO
Further to my previous post on why it is wrong to pay tithes based on the levitical law, another way of looking at it is that one is placing himself under the curse stated in Malachi 3. As christians we have been set free from all those curses because we have been bought by the blood of Christ. Paying tithesbbased on law is tatanmount to not having faith in the blood of Jesus which was shed to redeem us. However if the tithes is being paid from a willing heart(not under compulsion) then it is pefectly ok.[b] But the truth is that most people pay tithes based on the promises and the curses of Malachi3: 8-10 [/b]which their pastors use to stimulate and threaten them. Contrary to what pilgrim.1 said, most people that tithes are not aware that as christians they are not under any obligation to tithe.    

The promises and curses of Malachi3: 8-10 that influence christians so much opens up another can of worms.  The inner motivations of many christians in pursuing their beliefs.  In my opinion too many people have their faith encouraged by promises of prosperity and fear of retributions.  There is something very base and unspiritual about the practice of a lot of religionists including christians.

@ Pastor AIO

What do you say about Matthew 23:23?

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former."

Jesus here is clearly endorsing tithing as a valid practice - so why should we not do it (each deciding in his heart), with understanding of course, that God loves a cheerful giver?

I don't buy the former argument that this was 'directed at pharisees' or simply 'fulfilling the law'. When other issues in Mosaic law such as 'an eye for an eye' came up, this is what Jesus said:

Matthew 5:38-39
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'But I tell you not to resist an evildoer. On the contrary, whoever slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well.

What this implies to me is this: If Jesus wanted to abrogate tithing, he would have done so at this point, the same way he abrogated an eye for an eye. Jesus does not condemn the practice, neither do subsequent New Testament authors - it is definitely de-emphasised due to the wider audience involved now, both Jews and non-Jews. but that in no way negates the practice in my view.

The only caveat is this - all giving must come from a cheerful and grateful heart and not out of compulsion. Do not give the tithe if you feel compelled to, but only out of a right heart condition.

As to the matter of Malachi 3:10, We need to see things in context - there is no doubt that 'whatever a man sows so will he reap'. The core of our belief is (or should be) love and gratitude to the Saviour, but that does not negate the divine principle of sowing and reaping.

Pastor AIO:

There are a few things that I'd like to say about this thread.  

1) in the opening post KunleOshob said:
I think that the part highlighted in bold in the quote sets the context for everything that KunleOshob says.  His statement that the paying of tithes is wrong should be seen in light of his intent to 'remove the yoke from people who labour to pay tithes'.  When someone says to me they are paying a tithe I immediately think of the compulsory payment imposed on the Jews. Actually a Tithe merely means a Tenth.  To tithe therefore can only be understood in the context of this law otherwise telling someone that you are Tenth-ing your money is nonsense in the english language.  To tithe is to give in accordance with the Levitical law.  

Christian are still asked to give to the needy and to church, but to call such giving a tithe is just a conflation.  

I hope pilgrim.1 as noted the above highlighted and understands it inthe proper context.

Pastor AIO:

2)  If Pilgrim1 takes objection to the fact that KunleOshob said “it is wrong for us as Christians to receive or pay tithes” regardless of the context in which he has said it, then I think that her objection should be given due consideration.  Perhaps Kunle would find it a bit pedantic, but let's look on the positive side.  From what I can tell it seems that the spirit is inspiring KunleOshob with this message for christians and it will do no harm for him to consider what she is pointing out so that in future as he continues to deliver this message he is more careful of his choice of words.  Ultimately she is in fact helping you to sharpen your delivery of the message.  
Saying it is wrong to pay tithes is like saying that it is wrong to be circumcised.  It would be wrong to pay tithe or be circumcised under the old law thinking that that is what is going to save you.

Point noted i have learnt something here

Pastor AIO:


3)
The promises and curses of Malachi3: 8-10 that influence christians so much opens up another can of worms.  The inner motivations of many christians in pursuing their beliefs.  In my opinion too many people have their faith encouraged by promises of prosperity and fear of retributions.  There is something very base and unspiritual about the practice of a lot of religionists including christians.    

This is the problem i have always had about the way christianity is being taught and practised. I beleieve the problem lies with the leadership of the church who are not focusing on the true gospel of love christ preached.

Yes Pastor Aio, I agree.

I always thought that even if Kunle used a wrong choice of words in saying "it is wrong to tithe", his real point is much clearer. Indeed while the onus is on him to express himself accurately, I think his greater point is much clearer and could have been easily comprehended by an objective reader.

I think the fundamental point does remain: that the continued yoke and burden being placed on misguided or misinformed (or even uninformed) Christians by most modern teachings on "tithing" really need to be challenged vigorously and continuously. One should not allow semantics or nit-pickings regarding choice of words and pedantic gyrations to divert attention away from this real and pressing matter.

Of course if someone, having the full facts and understanding them, chooses to "tithe" in the way that it is taught predominantly today, that is their choice and they should not necessarily be castigated. However, it is a different matter where people are deceived, bullied or abused into succumbing to false superstitions (i.e. blessing and/or curse), mostly with the aim of fleecing them.

@debosky
Even the tithes being spoken of by Jesus in that passage is spice and cumin(agricultural produce as directed in the old testament), not money and definitely not from income. Apart from the fact that it was directed(not preached) at those who were under the law and were practising Judaism ( the approved religion of that time) Jesus never for once taught his follwers or his disciples. Also note that by the jewish laws under which the pharisees gave tithes, only the descendants of levi could receive tithes by law( the bible is very clear on that) we don't have any levites around today only those pretending to be levites. So lets even assume your submission that jesus approved it was right, then it as to be agricultural produce from the land and it must be given to the levites or other less priviledge people as directed in the old testament. Please note that the passage in matthew 23 does not even say who the tithes was given to casue tithes was more commonly given to the needy in those days it was after the needy had been setteld that the levites came and the reason why the levites were included was also stated being they were not allowed to own property of their own. That reason does not suffice today.

Deuteronomy 14:22-29:

  22Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

  23And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
  24And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:

  25Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:

  26And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,    27And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.    28At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:

  29And the Levite, because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

Hi guys,

Pastor AIO:

There are a few things that I'd like to say about this thread.  

1) in the opening post KunleOshob said:
I think that the part highlighted in bold in the quote sets the context for everything that KunleOshob says.  His statement that the paying of tithes is wrong should be seen in light of his intent to 'remove the yoke from people who labour to pay tithes'.  When someone says to me they are paying a tithe I immediately think of the compulsory payment imposed on the Jews.  Actually a Tithe merely means a Tenth.  To tithe therefore can only be understood in the context of this law otherwise telling someone that you are Tenth-ing your money is nonsense in the english language.  To tithe is to give in accordance with the Levitical law.  

Christian are still asked to give to the needy and to church, but to call such giving a tithe is just a conflation.  

2)  If Pilgrim1 takes objection to the fact that KunleOshob said “it is wrong for us as Christians to receive or pay tithes” regardless of the context in which he has said it, then I think that her objection should be given due consideration.  Perhaps Kunle would find it a bit pedantic, but let's look on the positive side.  From what I can tell it seems that the spirit is inspiring KunleOshob with this message for christians and it will do no harm for him to consider what she is pointing out so that in future as he continues to deliver this message he is more careful of his choice of words.  Ultimately she is in fact helping you to sharpen your delivery of the message.  
Saying it is wrong to pay tithes is like saying that it is wrong to be circumcised.  It would be wrong to pay tithe or be circumcised under the old law thinking that that is what is going to save you.

3)
The promises and curses of Malachi3: 8-10 that influence christians so much opens up another can of worms.  The inner motivations of many christians in pursuing their beliefs.  In my opinion too many people have their faith encouraged by promises of prosperity and fear of retributions.  There is something very base and unspiritual about the practice of a lot of religionists including christians.  

I am indeed refreshed from the contributions so far. Sincerely. Special thanks to Pastor AIO for the reasonable and effective delivery in contextualizing this discussion, and indeed i had read through the OP carefully before drawing my inference on just one question: is it wrong for Christians to tithe? That is just the crux of the matter for many people. The arguments for or against are merely ancillary seeking to establish whatever side of the divide that many people take. If one argues that it is wrong for Christians to tithe, I would be looking to see his or her reasons for saying so - which I was led to believe was a matter for Kunle based on what he believed Hebrews taught (regardless of what we find in other texts - which debosky has pointed out).

Choice of words matter - for without it, how would you even understand what I am saying in this reply? That is why (even though we all make mistakes) my appeal has been in several instances to seek clarification. . . whether as regards the way we perceive matters related to the Law, or other issues asserted out of hand.

As for the Malachi 3 issue, my position may be wrong indeed; for I have argued that it does not necessarily apply to the Christian. I am willing to admit that such a reasoning of mine may be deeply flawed after listening and reading from others, both here on the Forum and outside in other places. Very strong reasons they gave, which brought me back to the first page to what Alta argued. I see so much sense in the latter's arguments as far as principles are concerned, even though I had argued otherwise.

On the whole, the basic question is this: is it wrong for Christians to tithe? What may be confusing for many is to state that it is wrong, and yet argue later that it is perfectly okay. That's not something that would interest further deliberation, but thanks again for weighing in with reason and resolve.

debosky:

@ Pastor AIO

What do you say about Matthew 23:23?

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former."

Jesus here is clearly endorsing tithing as a valid practice - so why should we not do it (each deciding in his heart), with understanding of course, that God loves a cheerful giver?

I don't buy the former argument that this was 'directed at pharisees' or simply 'fulfilling the law'. When other issues in Mosaic law such as 'an eye for an eye' came up, this is what Jesus said:

Matthew 5:38-39
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'But I tell you not to resist an evildoer. On the contrary, whoever slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well.

What this implies to me is this: If Jesus wanted to abrogate tithing, he would have done so at this point, the same way he abrogated an eye for an eye. Jesus does not condemn the practice, neither do subsequent New Testament authors - it is definitely de-emphasised due to the wider audience involved now, both Jews and non-Jews. but that in no way negates the practice in my view.

The only caveat is this - all giving must come from a cheerful and grateful heart and not out of compulsion. Do not give the tithe if you feel compelled to, but only out of a right heart condition.

As to the matter of Malachi 3:10, We need to see things in context - there is no doubt that 'whatever a man sows so will he reap'. The core of our belief is (or should be) love and gratitude to the Saviour, but that does not negate the divine principle of sowing and reaping.

I totally agree with your input here. It was something I had hoped to take some time to point out further, but you have made it very concise for some of us. Many thanks.

pilgrim.1:

As for the Malachi 3 issue, my position may be wrong indeed; for I have argued that it does not necessarily apply to the Christian. I am willing to admit that such a reasoning of mine may be deeply flawed after listening and reading from others, both here on the Forum and outside in other places. Very strong reasons they gave, which brought me back to the first page to what Alta argued. I see so much sense in the latter's arguments as far as principles are concerned, even though I had argued otherwise.

I beg you pardon, that was not the first page - my bad. Here are the relevant replies in this same thread where Allta's made some sense to me on the Malachi 3 issue:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113108.352.html#msg2395529

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113108.352.html#msg2396262

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113108.352.html#msg2396521

@Pilgrim.1
And when you ask the question "is it right to tithe"? which type of tithes are you talking about?? Is it the biblical tithes that was food stuff eaten, shared with needy people and given to the decendants of levi or is it the church version of income/money given only to the church. Cos if we are talking about tithes based on what is in the bible we have to do it properly not manipulate it to suit the whims and caprices of those who propagate it

Dear Kunle,

KunleOshob:

@Pilgrim.1
And when you ask the question "is it right to tithe"? which type of tithes are you talking about?? Is it the biblical tithes that was food stuff eaten, shared with needy people and given to the decendants of levi or is it the church version of income/money given only to the church. because if we are talking about tithes based on what is in the bible we have to do it properly not manipulate it to suit the whims and caprices of those who propagate it

When you said: "However if the tithes is being paid from a willing heart(not under compulsion) then it is perfectly ok", what type of tithes are you perfectly okaying here - the one you find in the Bible or the one you made out of nowhere? Kunle, why is it so impossible for you to be consistent?