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KunleOshob (m)
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Don't misunderstand - at it's root, tithe means 10% (or some other percentage) . Moses and Jacob paid tithes outside of the mosaic law (albeit in single instances) so you cannot define tithes ONLY on the basis of mosaic law.
I'm learning everyday - so thank you again for making my point with the words in bold. Thank you, sir.  I am also learning everyday the only problem is that christian teachings in the new testament does not even recognize tithes talkless of defining it. |
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ogajim (m)
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I don't think there should be a divide between Christians based on how we give because Jesus Christ himself warned us against giving like the Pharisees did. Giving is Christian and if folks choose to give 10%, they are entitled to it as long as they know they won't be condemned if they don't pony up the cash (= highway robbery)
I don't recall Jacob paying any tithe but a promise to pay if all went well in his journey.
What is the relationship between OT Levitical tithes and our current tax system? Does a Christian in Germany for instance have to pay tithes even after "religion tax" is deducted from his paycheck?
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debosky (m)
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I am also learning everyday the only problem is that christian teachings in the new testament does not even recognize tithes talkless of defining it.
It doesn't have to be 'defined' - tithes means 10% at it's root, so no need to re-define it. One thing is sure: periodic giving is clearly encouraged in the New Testament, with individuals admonished by Paul to set aside some figure/amount of their income as they decide for weekly collection.
"Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come." (1 Cor 16:1-2) I am aware that the next thing I'll hear is that churches these days are misapplying funds, pastors are getting rich, etc. While that may be happening and is without doubt wrong, does that mean people should stop their giving (be it tithe/10% or any other figure)? NO.
What is the relationship between OT Levitical tithes and our current tax system? Does a Christian in Germany for instance have to pay tithes even after "religion tax" is deducted from his paycheck?
No one 'has to pay' anything - this usage in itself is wrong. Giving is not making a payment ( e.g on a debt or for a service) it is an act of worship. Purpose IN YOUR HEART how much you will decide to give, anything else is not in alignment with what Jesus taught about giving. I don't recall Jacob paying any tithe but a promise to pay if all went well in his journey.
Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me and will keep me on this journey that I take, and will give me food to eat and garments to wear, and I return to my father's house in safety, then the LORD will be my God. And this stone, which I have set up as a pillar, will be God's house; and of all that Thou dost give me I will surely
give a tenth to Thee." Genesis 28:20-22 a tenth = tithe. He did not practise what the Levitical order involved, but he did give 10% of all God gave him. As reflected in Jacob's case - the decision to GIVE should be made in your heart. |
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KunleOshob (m)
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It doesn't have to be 'defined' - tithes means 10% at it's root, so no need to re-define it. Whilst we all agree it means tenth the question is tenth of what? the bible defines it as ten percent of the produce of the land God gave the Isarelites. But today the meaning has been twisted and re-defined to mean ten per cent of income without any biblical basis. One thing is sure: periodic giving is clearly encouraged in the New Testament, with individuals admonished by Paul to set aside some figure/amount of their income as they decide for weekly collection.
"Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come." (1 Cor 16:1-2)
I am aware that the next thing I'll hear is that churches these days are misapplying funds, pastors are getting rich, etc. While that may be happening and is without doubt wrong, does that mean people should stop their giving (be it tithe/10% or any other figure)? NO.
Whilst i am not againts periodic giving, the example you gave is only partly and selfishly being implemented by the clergy. In that example the money was being collected for christians who were being persecuted in Jerusalem. [this was also in fufillment of the commandment to love one and other] But today that passage is being used to justify weekly collections in churches without using the money for the purpose which it was meant for. All church collections done in the new testament were always used to help those in need contrrary to what is being prctised today. As a christian i can as well decide to give only to the needy instead of the clergy that is robbing the needy of the money slated for them in the bible. |
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debosky (m)
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Whilst we all agree it means tenth the question is tenth of what? the bible defines it as ten percent of the produce of the land God gave the Isarelites. But today the meaning has been twisted and re-defined to mean ten per cent of income without any biblical basis. Again you make the mistake of picking ONLY the Mosaic Law definition. Abraham gave a 'tithe' of all the spoils of war, Jacob gave a 'tithe' of ' all that Thou dost give me'. Those are also valid definitions of the tithe. If I decide to give God 10% of my income, as a symbolic indication of giving a tenth of all that he has given me, That is biblical, according to Jacob's act. Whilst i am not againts periodic giving, the example you gave is only partly and selfishly being implemented by the clergy. In that example the money was being collected for christians who were being persecuted in Jerusalem. [this was also in fufillment of the commandment to love one and other] But today that passage is being used to justify weekly collections in churches without using the money for the purpose which it was meant for. All church collections done in the new testament were always used to help those in need contrrary to what is being prctised today. As a christian i can as well decide to give only to the needy instead of the clergy that is robbing the needy of the money slated for them in the bible.
I disagree with the bold part - some of the collections were used to support those who preached the word as admonished by Paul to Timothy 1 TImothy 5:17-18 Elders who do their work well should be respected and paid well,especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, “You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain.” And in another place, “Those who work deserve their pay!1 Cor 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.Now how would the above be carried out except from collections? As a Christian you can decide to do as you wish, there is no compulsion to do anything. Anyone who gives should endeavour to know how resources are being used. As an example, my 'home' church in Nigeria tenders these figures and it can be clearly seen how much has been spent on supporting the pastors and how much on other activities. Again, wrong implementation of scripture doesn't render the word invalid - what we should seek is achieving compliance with the word, not this 'blame culture' you seem to be focused on. |
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KunleOshob (m)
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Again you make the mistake of picking ONLY the Mosaic Law definition. Abraham gave a 'tithe' of all the spoils of war, Jacob gave a 'tithe' of ' all that Thou dost give me'. Those are also valid definitions of the tithe. If I decide to give God 10% of my income, as a symbolic indication of giving a tenth of all that he has given me, That is biblical, according to Jacob's act.
Tithes today is preached in most churches based on levitical law [malachi3:8-10] and we know that levitical law defines it as ten percent of the produce of the land. the examples of Abraham and Jacob given are not relevant casue there is no instruction to repeat what they did to even the Israelites talkless of christians I disagree with the bold part - some of the collections were used to support those who preached the word as admonished by Paul to Timothy
1 TImothy 5:17-18
Elders who do their work well should be respected and paid well,especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, “You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain.” And in another place, “Those who work deserve their pay!
1 Cor 9:14
Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
Now how would the above be carried out except from collections?
As a Christian you can decide to do as you wish, there is no compulsion to do anything. Anyone who gives should endeavour to know how resources are being used. As an example, my 'home' church in Nigeria tenders these figures and it can be clearly seen how much has been spent on supporting the pastors and how much on other activities.
Again, wrong implementation of scripture doesn't render the word invalid - what we should seek is achieving compliance with the word, not this 'blame culture' you seem to be focused on.
Your point here is noted but please note emphasis on christian giving in the NT was to the needy contrary to what is happening today. |
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ladygaga (f)
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Whilst we all agree it means tenth the question is tenth of what? the bible defines it as ten percent of the produce of the land God gave the Isarelites. But today the meaning has been twisted and re-defined to mean ten per cent of income without any biblical basis.
what other thing do u earn for services these days .is it not money, or does your emplyer give u goats and sheep and the likes as your take home pay, i think money seems to be the valuable thing ppl can give to church ,aside time and energy  |
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anonimi
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Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me and will keep me on this journey that I take, and will give me food to eat and garments to wear, and I return to my father's house in safety, then the LORD will be my God. And this stone, which I have set up as a pillar, will be God's house; and of all that Thou dost give me I will surely give a tenth to Thee." Genesis 28:20-22
a tenth = tithe. He did not practise what the Levitical order involved, but he did give 10% of all God gave him. As reflected in Jacob's case - the decision to GIVE should be made in your heart.
In the text you quoted from the Bible, Jacob promised he will surely give (future tense). Nowhere did the Bible say he actually gave subsequently. However, in order to butress your exploitative tithe principle, which even has no bearing to the OT source, you state " he did give 10% of all God gave him" |
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anonimi
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The word “tithe” orignally meant ten percent (10%). The “tithe,” however, is only a barometer or guideline to help determine one’s sacrificial giving. Some can and should offer more than a 10% tithe; others may have circumstances that warrant them paying less than a 10% tithe.
. . .
If a tithe (10%) is legitimately too much for one’s current budget, a member may begin with a lower percentage that will be both sacrificial and yet possible. Then the member may gradually raise the level of giving until the full tithe is reached. In this way brothers and sisters and families are making a decision for the Lord first and only afterward considering their own needs and wants.
[note: apart from quoting malachi 3:4-10, it was later down the page that they quoted only verse 10 in their teaching:
302. Additional Scriptures on this call to trust are: Mal 3:10; Mt 6:19-34; Lk 12:22-32; 1 Tm 6:17-19.]
source: Legion of the Order of St. Michael (Catholic) pilgrim, how can you reach a full tithe when it (10%) has been described as a barometer or guideline? Is it not obvious to you that since churches cannot biblically sustain the obligation to pay 10% (tenth/tithe) they modify it as much as possible without touching the obligatory aspect??? |
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omoruyilag
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yes oooooooooo
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minniepoe (f)
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There is a now a new dimension to this tithe issue in my church. It was announced sometime last year that paying of tithe will now be done publicly and not just worshippers dropping their tithes in tithe basket being passed around but, we have to dedicate a session of the service to paying of tithe. That is announcement will be made for tithes payment and everyone with their tithes will have to get up to put their tithes in the basket now placed on the altar.  Then after this will the offering basket be passed around for general offering. reason: a new order from G.O: Pastor Adeboye.  Reason message was sent from G.O : God spoke to him that he should let RCCG members know that tithing is compulsory and should be obeyed in order for us to receive God's blessings. The video were he spoke was even aired in church. Also to know those not paying tithes Christianinty = bondage now oo. It was even said that if a member is on social welfare payment, member has to tithe 10% compulsory, because it is an income as well. May the good Lord help us all. Me, i dont believe in tithing so i dont do it. I make pledges and i fulfil my pledge. I give offerings of my own free will and when i dont have i am still happy. I give donations to oxfam, concern and the rest. I help people i feel are in need. |
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Pastor AIO
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There is a now a new dimension to this tithe issue in my church. It was announced sometime last year that paying of tithe will now be done publicly and not just worshippers dropping their tithes in tithe basket being passed around but, we have to dedicate a session of the service to paying of tithe. That is announcement will be made for tithes payment and everyone with their tithes will have to get up to put their tithes in the basket now placed on the altar. Then after this will the offering basket be passed around for general offering. reason: a new order from G.O: Pastor Adeboye. Reason message was sent from G.O : God spoke to him that he should let RCCG members know that tithing is compulsory and should be obeyed in order for us to receive God's blessings. The video were he spoke was even aired in church. Also to know those not paying tithes Christianinty = bondage now oo. It was even said that if a member is on social welfare payment, member has to tithe 10% compulsory, because it is an income as well. May the good Lord help us all. Me, i dont believe in tithing so i dont do it. I make pledges and i fulfil my pledge. I give offerings of my own free will and when i dont have i am still happy. I give donations to oxfam, concern and the rest. I help people i feel are in need. But Minniepoe he said he had a direct communication from God about this. So I can only conclude that either you do not have any desire to please God or you do not believe that he is in communication with God. If you don't believe that he is in communication with God then you are calling him a liar. Why would you fellowship with Liars? Why go to a church headed by a Liar? Is it just out of sheer habit? Or is there something else that you are gaining from it other than getting the word of God. |
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minniepoe (f)
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@Pastor AIO,
I am not calling G.O a liar but i dont buy into that. When i have a personal conviction that i have to pay a tenth of my gross salary monthly then i would do that.
I dont have to believe everything that comes out of the mouth of a pastor when i have my bible to consult.
I go there to worship and fellowship with brethren. So many things are preached in church that i dont buy into but that wont stop me from worshipping God the way i understand as written in the Bible His word.
take for instance the issue of speaking in tongues as a sign of receiving the Holy Spirit. It is of the belief that if a christian does not speak in tongues, he/she has not the Holyspirit. So it is believed in my hurch but i have a different opinion to that.
So as said earlier, i have my bible to consult when a pastor preaches i go back to my bible. So well for G.O to have heard from God and so well for me to get convincted in my spirit.
If i tell a lie, i know immediately i have done something wrong because i am convicted by my spirit. When i dont pay tithe i dont feel i have done something wrong because i dont feel bad.
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slimslim
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@Minniepoe, Has your coming to Nairaland to report what your G.O told the congregation l ast year got you your heart's conviction that paying tithes is wrong or not. Why report issues in your church to Nairaland if you can discern from your own heart what is right or wrong. Just wondering  |
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Pastor AIO
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@Pastor AIO,
I am not calling G.O a liar but i dont buy into that. When i have a personal conviction that i have to pay a tenth of my gross salary monthly then i would do that.
I dont have to believe everything that comes out of the mouth of a pastor when i have my bible to consult.
I go there to worship and fellowship with brethren. So many things are preached in church that i dont buy into but that wont stop me from worshipping God the way i understand as written in the Bible His word.
take for instance the issue of speaking in tongues as a sign of receiving the Holy Spirit. It is of the belief that if a christian does not speak in tongues, he/she has not the Holyspirit. So it is believed in my hurch but i have a different opinion to that.
So as said earlier, i have my bible to consult when a pastor preaches i go back to my bible. So well for G.O to have heard from God and so well for me to get convincted in my spirit.
If i tell a lie, i know immediately i have done something wrong because i am convicted by my spirit. When i dont pay tithe i dont feel i have done something wrong because i dont feel bad.
\ Thank you for your response. However the fact remains. G.O made a claim. He said God told him to tell you to pay your tithe. There can only be two possibilities. That claim is true or false. If true, then you're displeasing God. If false then G.O is a liar. |
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minniepoe (f)
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@ slimslim,
i am not reporting my church to anyone on nairalnad. i am only trying to shed more light into the issue of how tithe has been a compulsory issue to Christians.
if you had read my post clearly, i never said it was wrong for anyone to pay tithe. Only if emphasis are laid on other issues in christianity as it is laid on tithes.
Anyone that wishes to pay tithes is welcomed to do so. i have nothing against anyone who does so.
@ PaStor AIG,
Whatever G.O said is left for anyone to disgest, ponder on and accept it or not. At least, not everyone accepted Jesus Christ when He was on earth. So whenever i feel convicted that i have to obey the law of tithing then i will and if i dont i should be left alone.
It should not be made compulsory for me. or enforced on me by anyone.
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slimslim
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Minniepoe,
I hear you sha! But ,
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babygurl19 (f)
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why dont u just paste the whole bible on nairaland.hissssssssss
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anonimi
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@Pastor AIO,
I am not calling G.O a liar but i dont buy into that. When i have a personal conviction that i have to pay a tenth of my gross salary monthly then i would do that.
I dont have to believe everything that comes out of the mouth of a pastor when i have my bible to consult.
may God Almighty bless you for your wholesome CHRISTian attitude of using the Bible as your compass to navigate the oftimes treacherous terrain laid out by pastors and brethren. |
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anonimi
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why dont u just paste the whole bible on nairaland.hissssssssss
here is a web site where you can do Bible searches either by passages (books, chapters & verses) or words and phrases. Stay blessed. Bible Search |
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kolaxy (m)
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Romans 14 The Danger of Criticism 1 Accept other believers who are weak in faith, and don't argue with them about what they think is right or wrong.2 For instance, one person believes it's all right to eat anything. But another believer with a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables.3 Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don't. And those who don't eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them.4 Who are you to condemn someone else’s servants? Their own master will judge whether they stand or fall. And with the Lord’s help, they will stand and receive his approval. 5 In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable.6 Those who worship the Lord on a special day do it to honor him. Those who eat any kind of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who refuse to eat certain foods also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God.7 For we don't live for ourselves or die for ourselves.8 If we live, it's to honor the Lord. And if we die, it's to honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.9 Christ died and rose again for this very purpose—to be Lord both of the living and of the dead. 10 So why do you condemn another believer*? Why do you look down on another believer? Remember, we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.11 For the Scriptures say, "'As surely as I live,' says the LORD, 'every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.*'" 12 Yes, each of us will give a personal account to God.13 So let's stop condemning each other. Decide instead to live in such a way that you will not cause another believer to stumble and fall. 14 I know and am convinced on the authority of the Lord Jesus that no food, in and of itself, is wrong to eat. But if someone believes it is wrong, then for that person it is wrong.15 And if another believer is distressed by what you eat, you are not acting in love if you eat it. Don't let your eating ruin someone for whom Christ died.16 Then you will not be criticized for doing something you believe is good.17 For the Kingdom of God is not a matter of what we eat or drink, but of living a life of goodness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.18 If you serve Christ with this attitude, you will please God, and others will approve of you, too.19 So then, let us aim for harmony in the church and try to build each other up. 20 Don't tear apart the work of God over what you eat. Remember, all foods are acceptable, but it is wrong to eat something if it makes another person stumble.21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything else if it might cause another believer to stumble.22 You may believe there's nothing wrong with what you are doing, but keep it between yourself and God. Blessed are those who don't feel guilty for doing something they have decided is right.23 But if you have doubts about whether or not you should eat something, you are sinning if you go ahead and do it. For you are not following your convictions. If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning. |
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kolaxy (m)
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In support of the above text from Romans 14, my humble advice for those that pays tithe and non-tithers are the same.If your 'spirit' tells u that paying tithe is wrong,please dont pay tithe.And please,dont feel guilty.That will not prevent u from not going or going to heaven.Remember,ROMANS 14 v 22,' You may believe there's nothing wrong with what you are doing, but keep it between yourself and God.Blessed are those who don't feel guilty for doing something they have decided is right'.
On the other hand,if your 'spirit' tells you that by paying tithe (i.e 10% of your income), you are doing the right thing,please don't feel guilty.Remember,ROMANS 14 V 22,'You may believe there's nothing wrong with what you are doing, but keep it between yourself and God.Blessed are those who don't feel guilty for doing something they have decided is right'.
Romans 14 v 4 says,'Who are you to condemn someone else’s servants? Their own master will judge whether they stand or fall. And with the Lord’s help, they will stand and receive his approval.
NB; 'Someone else's' may be replace by 'Jesus Christ' in the above statement. Peace
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Jagoon
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Mmmh does that mean it is ok for pastors to fleece the flock in the name of a doctrine not based in biblical christian teachings?
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kristos (m)
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my two cents:
Giving is encouraged as christains for the propagation of God's work and i give regularly, but i draw a line when some dude with good oratorial skills climbs the pulpit and tell me that if i don't pay my tithes, i am cursed. Christains can decide to be giving 1%,10%, 20% etc. of their income, i have no problem with that, but saying that it is a prerequisite for God's blessing is a complete fallacy. The pastors put unnecessary burdens on thier members making them give to God, not out of worship but out of keeping a nonexistent law. I give when i can but nobody is gonna say anything to make me part with 10% of my income every week/month. To those who think that they suffer misfortune cos they did not pay their tithes. YOU ARE SO DELUDED.
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