The Theory Of Evolution Refuted? The No-witness Argument

A Member? Please Login  
type your username and password to login
Date: September 05, 2008, 09:35 AM
236662 members and 136465 Topics
Latest Member: Rosekenke
Nairaland [Nigerian Forum] Home Help Search Who is currently online? Login Register
Nairaland Forum  |  General Discussion  |  Religion (Moderator: mukina2)  |  The Theory Of Evolution Refuted? The No-witness Argument
Pages: (1) Go Down Send this topic Notify of replies
Author Topic: The Theory Of Evolution Refuted? The No-witness Argument  (Read 116 views)
tpaine
The Theory Of Evolution Refuted? The No-witness Argument
« on: March 09, 2008, 08:32 PM »

As a scientific theory, evolution has withstood the test of every attempt to falsify it, but each time it passed with flying colours.  The evidence in support of evolution is staggering, ranging from paleontology, geology, genetic etc. Each of these branches of science independently could be capable of falsifying evolution, but interestingly, only find facts that confirm common descent by natural selection.

I have seen all kind of attempts at refuting evolutions - from the bizarre to the ridiculous.  One of the most ridiculous trumpetted by some of the members of Nairaland (particularly Imhotep) is the No-Witness Argument. Basically, he asserts that we must accept evolution on faith because no one was around to witness it.  Below is a typical comment from Imhotep;

Quote from: imhotep on March 09, 2008, 04:38 PM
That's right. The religion of evolution has many dogmas describing things that happened 100 million years ago.

Since we were not around as at then, we are supposed to accept these dogmas by faith.

This sounds very much like the sola fide (by faith alone) of Martin Luther.

This is wrong in so many counts, it is amazing that someone has reached adulthood (I presume)  and hold such naive understanding of the world and science. This is palpable evidence that the science curriculum in most schools have failed to impart the most basics of scientific understanding.

Science is routinely used to study the past and make predictions about the future; For instance, when we peer into a telescope to look at distance star, we may be looking at events that took place billions of years ago.  The compositions of stars such as our sun is well understood although no-one has physically travelled to these stars.

And many many such studies are carried out daily by scientist all over the world. If this  was a discredited approach to science, then the majority of scientific research would grind to a halt.

Now consider the following analogies;

1) A clearing in the woods

You walk 10 miles into a dense forest and find a clearing in the woods where once there might have been a tree. But the tree is nowhere to be found by simple naked-eye inspection. There were no eye witnesses of witness the falling and rotting away (or carting off) of the tree. Say, you arrive at the scene 1 - 5 years after the clearing appeared.  Is it possible to formulate a hypothesis to determine what happened at this location?

2) The site of a car crash.

You are a forensic car accident investigator. You arrive at the scene of a hit-and-run accident, with the car having hit a road-traffic installations and there are no eye-witnesses. The culprit car has been driven away from the scene of the crash. Is it possible to formulate a hypothesis to explain the plausible set of explanations as to the damage to the road installation?

3)  You drive your car to the petrol filling station to top up on fuel and your 10 year old child asks you, "Daddy, where does petroleum fuel come from?"  Can you formulate a hypothesis to investigate the process of the formation of petroleum fuels?

4)  You take you prospective wife to a jewery store to put an engagement ring on her finger. Your partner is not very knowledgeable about sciences but she adores diamond. You also adore her; so will not begrudge her ignorance of these esoteric matters of sciences.  Upon arrival home, she is delighted with the diamond, but asks you how these stones are formed. Can you formulate a hypothesis to investigate the formation of diamonds naturally?  Do you think these natural processes could be artificially mimicked in the labs today?

Consider the above when next you are tempted to use the No-Witness Argument.


BTW, evolution is happen all the time as I write.  The Nylon-eating bacteria is a new bacteria that evolve only after nylon was invented in the 50s. There are many more examples.

=====================================================================================================

Some of my other threads


The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006

Danger! Religion May Damage Your Intelligence And Your Mind If Not Your Wealth
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115458.0.html

What Are Jesus's Core Moral Teachings And Which Are Unique To Him
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-118622.0.html

Which Christianity? Pauline Or Jamesian
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-117735.0.html

Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-118541.0.html

With God On Our Side: God-inspired Violence - The Christians
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-118563.0.html

Speaking In Tongues: Is It Real Language Or Garrulous Babble?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-118036.0.html

Capital Punishment, Religiousity And Secularism
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-118613.0.html

Don't Know Much About Evolution?: Watch Dr Kenneth Miller Make It Simple
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-116650.0.html

The Theory Of Evolution Refuted? The No-witness Argument
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-118701.0.html

Can One Embrace Evolution And Maintain Christian (or Other Religious) Belief
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-118684.0.html

Which Ten Commandments?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115811.0.html#msg1998588

Jesus's Doctrine Of Passive Non-resistance To Evil
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115745.0.html

Does Anyone Not Know What The Permian–triassic Extinction Event Is ?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115553.0.html

What Are Spiritual Truths?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115666.0.html#msg1996318

Road To Damascus Incident: Paul's Account
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115689.0.html#msg1996608

Noah, Kangaroos, Sloth, Polar Bear And Panda In A Wooden Boat
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115589.0.html#msg1994984

Resurrection Accounts In The Gospel: Reconciliation Wanted
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115582.0.html

Does Jesus Know What Causes Sin? Thank Goodness He Doesn't.
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115292.0.html

The Dreadful Plight Of Apostasy In The Bible
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115114.0.html

Is The European Union Prophesied In The Bible? Is It The Anti-christ?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115053.0.html

Jesus And The Old Laws
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115190.0.html

What Can Be Said To Be Definitely Known About Jesus?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114935.0.html

Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113860.0.html

Hell Past, Hell Present; Which Do You Prefer?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113947.0.html#msg1971669

The Sexual Act And Christian Teaching
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114332.0.html

Scientific Rationalism, Reason And Faith: Which Produces Systematic Knowledge?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114253.0.html

On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus, Part 2:
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113676.0.html

On The Historical Reliability Of The Bible
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114215.0.html

When And From Where Did Jesus Ascend Into Heaven
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113519.0.html

http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114023.0.html#msg1972418
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114023.0.html#msg1972418

When Was Jesus Born?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113449.0.html

On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus 13012dg
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113342.0.html#msg1963529

Was Jesus The Prophesied Messiah? Let's Look At The Evidence.
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113303.0.html

What Are Your Chances Of Being Saved?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113283.0.html

Who Wrote The Gospels And When Were They Written?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113277.0.html#msg1962589

God Selects The Rulers Of Countries; G W Bush, Sadam, Pol Pot, Abacha, Hitler
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113186.0.html#msg1961537

Cannibalism In The Bible: Det 28:53-57, Lev 26:29, Jer 19:9, Ezek 5:10, Lam 4:10
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113181.0.html#msg1961343

What Are The Core Tenets (doctrines, Value And Virtues) Of Christainity?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112990.0.html

Faith-healer And Evangelist, Maurice Cerullo, Investigated
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113871.0.html

What Fate For Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Constantine And Tomás De Torquemada?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112997.0.html#msg1958617

Is The Doctrine Of Trinity Biblical? The Johannine Comma
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112865.0.html#msg1957266

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 2
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112848.0.html

How Is Salvation Achieved?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112833.0.html

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426

Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340

Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311

When Was Jesus Crucified?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665

On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam)
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353

Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528

Where Did Sin Originate?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291

For The Non-beleivers Only, 1
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957

Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631

Has Atheism Got Principle? No
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180

It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940

Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682

Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268

Great Books About Non-belief
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935

Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg194111quc02137

Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992

What Is The Evidence That The Bible Is The Word Of God?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113161.0.html#msg1960928

Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155

Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158

Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099

What lasting Benefits Did Jesus Bring Into The World?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115382.0.html#msg1992157

The Catholic Doctrine, Original Sin And Evolution
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115525.0.html#msg1994039

Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975

Genesis Vs Genetics
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655

Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-111474.0.html

Jesus Genealogy
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616

£300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508

Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160

====================================================================================================
imhotep
Re: The Theory Of Evolution Refuted? The No-witness Argument
« #1 on: March 10, 2008, 12:55 PM »

Quote from: tpaine on March 09, 2008, 08:32 PM
Now consider the following analogies;

1) A clearing in the woods

You walk 10 miles into a dense forest and find a clearing in the woods where once there might have been a tree. But the tree is nowhere to be found by simple naked-eye inspection. There were no eye witnesses of witness the falling and rotting away (or carting off) of the tree. Say, you arrive at the scene 1 - 5 years after the clearing appeared.  Is it possible to formulate a hypothesis to determine what happened at this location?

2) The site of a car crash.

You are a forensic car accident investigator. You arrive at the scene of a hit-and-run accident, with the car having hit a road-traffic installations and there are no eye-witnesses. The culprit car has been driven away from the scene of the crash. Is it possible to formulate a hypothesis to explain the plausible set of explanations as to the damage to the road installation?


Consider the above when next you are tempted to use the No-Witness argument.
@tpaine
Poor analogies. Give me an analogy using an event that might have happened 90 million years ago - not 1 or 5 years ago.
tpaine
Re: The Theory Of Evolution Refuted? The No-witness Argument
« #2 on: March 10, 2008, 01:09 PM »

Quote from: imhotep on March 10, 2008, 12:55 PM
@tpaine
Poor analogies. Give me an analogy using an event that might have happened 90 million years ago - not 1 or 5 years ago.


OK, if that is what you want, here we go;

3)  You drive your car to the petrol filling station to top up on fuel and your 10 year old child asks you, "Daddy, where does petroleum fuel come from?"  Can you formulate a hypothesis to investigate the process of the formation of petroleum fuels?

4)  You take you propective wife to a jewery store to put an engagement ring on her finger. Your partner is not very knowledgeable about sciences but she adores diamond. You also adore her; so will not begrudge her ignorance of these esoteric matters of sciences.  Upon arrival home, she is delighted with the diamond, but asks you how these stones are formed. Can you formulate a hypothesis to investigate the formation of diamonds naturally?  Do you think these natural processes could be artificially mimiced in the labs today?


There you are!
4 Play (m)
Re: The Theory Of Evolution Refuted? The No-witness Argument
« #3 on: March 10, 2008, 01:15 PM »

Quote
Now consider the following analogies;

1) A clearing in the woods

You walk 10 miles into a dense forest and find a clearing in the woods where once there might have been a tree. But the tree is nowhere to be found by simple naked-eye inspection. There were no eye witnesses of witness the falling and rotting away (or carting off) of the tree. Say, you arrive at the scene 1 - 5 years after the clearing appeared.  Is it possible to formulate a hypothesis to determine what happened at this location?

2) The site of a car crash.

You are a forensic car accident investigator. You arrive at the scene of a hit-and-run accident, with the car having hit a road-traffic installations and there are no eye-witnesses. The culprit car has been driven away from the scene of the crash. Is it possible to formulate a hypothesis to explain the plausible set of explanations as to the damage to the road installation?

You are free to formulate all the hypothesis your mind can fathom,the problem is where you elevate your hypothesis to empirical truths.
tpaine
Re: The Theory Of Evolution Refuted? The No-witness Argument
« #4 on: March 10, 2008, 01:26 PM »

Quote from: 4 Play on March 10, 2008, 01:15 PM
You are free to formulate all the hypothesis your mind can fathom,the problem is where you elevate your hypothesis to empirical truths.

I agree to a certain extent. There are all sorts of TRUTHS, some of which admit of empirical verification. The ones we are talking about here are certainly amenable to empirical validation.  For instance, we can empirically verify that the water molecule (H2O) is composed of two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom.  Just as we can empirically verify that there once were things called dinosaurs, neandarthal, saber-tooth tigers and mamoths. 

Science has the wherewithal to perform these verification. We are simply employing the same methodology to investigate the diversity of life on the planet.
4 Play (m)
Re: The Theory Of Evolution Refuted? The No-witness Argument
« #5 on: March 10, 2008, 01:40 PM »

@tpaine

Don't be disingenuous.If the theory of evolution has been empirically validated a la the composition of H2O,you won't be hedging by talking of "formulating hypothesis." 

The whole debate is about the origin of life,unless you asserting that this has been empirically validated,you are effectively stuck with the formulation of hypothesis.Until then,many other theories about the origin of life retain credibility until one has been conclusively proven.
tpaine
Re: The Theory Of Evolution Refuted? The No-witness Argument
« #6 on: March 10, 2008, 01:51 PM »

Quote from: 4 Play on March 10, 2008, 01:40 PM
@tpaine

Don't be disingenuous.If the theory of evolution has been empirically validated a la the composition of H2O,you won't be hedging by talking of "formulating hypothesis."

The whole debate is about the origin of life,unless you asserting that this has been empirically validated,you are effectively stuck with the formulation of hypothesis.Until then,many other theories about the origin of life retain credibility until one has been conclusively proven.

is there an omission in this post. it does not make sense to me. you want to check it, then i shall respond.
tpaine
Re: The Theory Of Evolution Refuted? The No-witness Argument
« #7 on: March 10, 2008, 02:37 PM »

Quote from: 4 Play on March 10, 2008, 01:40 PM
@tpaine

Don't be disingenuous.If the theory of evolution has been empirically validated a la the composition of H2O,you won't be hedging by talking of "formulating hypothesis."

The whole debate is about the origin of life,unless you asserting that this has been empirically validated,you are effectively stuck with the formulation of hypothesis.Until then,many other theories about the origin of life retain credibility until one has been conclusively proven.

I think I get your point now, but you are wrong, with respect.

"Every" scientific theory starts life as a hypothesis. The investigator gathers the facts and tries to explain such fact with a hypothesis. Only after the hypothesis has been successfully verified and validated and the investigator and the community of worldwide scientists is that accepted as a theory.

I used "hypothesis" in my analogies not to reduce evolustion to a hypothesis, but to demonstrate how a scientist would go about investigating the questions.

You would be surprise, evolution has been validated at very minute levels; the chromosomal and microbiological level.  Check out the work of the evolutionary scientist Sean Carrol, http://www.hhmi.org/research/investigators/carroll_bio.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ncgm9QOzQsA

BTW, evolution does NOT explain the start of life. It only explains the diversification of life, once life had got started.

You may want to take my elementary test to check out your comprehension of basic science. This is may be instructive.  Here we go;

1-)  What is the speed of light?  How long does it take the light from the sun to reach the earth?
2-)  What is the difference between a theory and a hypothesis in the scientific sense?
3-)  Have you ever heard about the germ theory of disease, the theory of gravity?
4-)  What are stromatolites?
5-)  How old is the earth?
6-)  What is the end-permian extinction and what proportion of life went extinct?
7-)  How long ago were dinosaurs wiped out?
8-)  Do you know what asteroid impact of the earth are?
9-)  Can you give a rough estimate of the number of stars on our galaxy, the Milky Way?
10-) Do you know what chromosomes and DNA are.  Can you name any "genetic disease"?
11-)  On the whole, do you think science and technology provides solutions to human problems?
12-)  Have you ever visted a museum?
13-)  What are fossils?
14-)  What is the geological column?
15-)  What is the theory of plate tectonic?
16-)  How is petroleum fuel formed and how long is the process?

tpaine
Re: The Theory Of Evolution Refuted? The No-witness Argument
« #8 on: March 10, 2008, 03:04 PM »

A Sean Carroll lecture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ncgm9QOzQsA

Enjoy.
tpaine
Re: The Theory Of Evolution Refuted? The No-witness Argument
« #9 on: March 10, 2008, 06:45 PM »

Imhotep,

What you looked at these other analogies?

3)  You drive your car to the petrol filling station to top up on fuel and your 10 year old child asks you, "Daddy, where does petroleum fuel come from?"  Can you formulate a hypothesis to investigate the process of the formation of petroleum fuels?

4)  You take you propective wife to a jewery store to put an engagement ring on her finger. Your partner is not very knowledgeable about sciences but she adores diamond. You also adore her; so will not begrudge her ignorance of these esoteric matters of sciences.  Upon arrival home, she is delighted with the diamond, but asks you how these stones are formed. Can you formulate a hypothesis to investigate the formation of diamonds naturally?  Do you think these natural processes could be artificially mimiced in the labs today?
 What's New Year Resolution?  At Last.  In The Beginning, God…  Page 2
Pages: (1) Go Up Send Topic to Friend by E-mail Reply 
Google
 
Web www.nairaland.com
Sections: TV/Movies (2) Music/Radio (2) Celebrities Job Talk Jobs/Vacancies (2) Career Talk Romance Books Politics Sports Fashion Travel
Health Schooling Religion General(2) Business Webmaster Programming Computers Phones Cars & Trucks

Links: Page1 Page2 Page3 Page4 Page5 Page6 Page7 Page8 Page9 Page10

Nairaland is owned by Oluwaseun Osewa
Nairaland Forum | Powered by SMF 1.0.12.
© 2001-2005, Lewis Media. All Rights Reserved.