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lystola
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@Nwankwo you need to understand that God himself breaks the laaws he himself created, he broke the law of sexual reproduction, with the birth of Jesus, he broke the law of gravity with Jesus, He broke the law of season with Elijah, and so on so i think you should rethink what you say, when you say it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to undo what he did/
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lystola
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@Kola thanks for that post. one thing you have to understand Nwankwo is that when oyu are dealing with God you have to drop everything you call wisdom and reasoning, because it does not even measure up to God foolishness,(thats if God is FOOLISH anyway) but you have to understand that no matter your reasoning God is not bound by our boundaries and limitation, he exist outside time, he can do anything he wants. you are complaining about the talking Donkey, Jesus said if man will for a second stop praising God, immediately the stones will cryout praises and worship him, so you haven't even seen anything yet. stop trying to analyse God with your brain, how can a two years old boy be trying to correct a professor of english on the alphabets. its unthinkably stupid/.
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m_nwankwo (m)
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@Kola oloye
Miracles do occure and they are always a fufillment of the laws of God, not a negation or suspension of it. The healling of a woman who torched the gament of the son of God happened and can be explained if you really want to know about it. When people have witnessed miracles, the wonder of it also makes them to believe in impossibilities. The turning of water to wine didnot happen. It is impossible to turn water to wine. If you think the contrarly then produce the evidence. A report of it in your sacred book didnot constitute an evidence. It is merely an anectodal report. I agree with you that the power of God is awesome.
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m_nwankwo (m)
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@Lysola Just provide even one single evidence to show that those claims happened. If you have seen a stone turn to bread, or a mango to banana, just send me the link and I will follow it up. I have investigated countless miraculous claims and only very few stood the test of rigorous indpedent scrutiny. People can believe whatever they want but if they want their beliefs to be taken as the Truth, they have to provide the evidence and allow the evidence to be investigated.
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lystola
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8)Nwankwo the mistake you are making is, looking for signs to believe, you want another great big hand to show up in the sky, and a thundrous voice to loudly speak and cause so manythings, but i tell you, you wont find, you want another water to be turned into wine, sorry, you would have to wait a long while, no one is looking for anybody to accept their belliefs, as a christian, i don't bother to trying to convince people to accept my belief, because, only God himsdelf can open anybody's eyes to see his truth, scripture says, "the god of this world has blinded the people eyes, and closed their eyes. lest they ear and see the truth and be saved." also it says "no one can of himself come to the light except God deaws them to himself" so don't worry i am not trying to convince you of my belief because i don't expect you to even be able to comprehend it, all i am doing is to inform you, which you can decide to ignore easily or accet, but all the same. IT IS WELL EVEN IN THE WELL!!!
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m_nwankwo (m)
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@Lystola
I am not making a mistake, neither I am looking for signs. I state those things that are impossible and why. The fact that they are impossible is proven by the observation that there is not a single case in which those claims have been verified to be true. Miracles do occure but some of the "miracles" that believers expect only exist in their imagination.
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lystola
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Thank God you believe Miracles happen, but then what exactly do you call a miracle, i would not call something that is bound to happen naturally a miracle right. only sometihng that is not possible, something out of the ordinary. Miracles are not the everyday event you get to see as you walk down the street every morning. Miracles are things that happen in contrary to all reasoning and sensibility, miracles are things and events that has no business occuring as far as nature is concern or reason for that matter. What would you call the instant growth of arms on people without arms, or people who are born blind and instantly begin to see, at least you don't get to see that everyday, even science has not been able to prove or establish a theory on instant cell regenration, so how do yuo explain such events, that contradict nature, they are not even in bible times, they are happening in our present age. Miracles are truly senseless and impossible to human because it contradicts everything we know, that is exactly why it is called MIRACLES. A miracle, derived from the old Latin word miraculum meaning "something wonderful", is a striking interposition of divine intervention by a supernatural being in the universe by which the ordinary course and operation of Nature is overruled, suspended, or modified. So now Miracles are not even to be understood, because it overrules nature, so if what anyone who is expecting a miracle is not contrary to nature, then we can as well say the pperson is not looking for a miracle, he is just looking for oppurtunity or watevea. You don't go in wild search looking for Miracles. i wont go into the issue of getting miracles or whateva right now, because i can imagine that will bring up another issue on its own, and we have already digressed from the issue itself which is Does God really Speak to Human? and How? now all these is what we have been explaining that Yes He does, and it happens in various ways, in any way, and He can chose to do it any how he wants it. but you know what he does things thatlook foolish to us just to confound the wisdom and intelligence we claim to have, to show us that no matter our level and intelligencewe can not rule out his Supremacy, so every ones in a while he does something that contradicts what we know, then we begin to wonder about the truth of what we know, and then we begin to engage in arguements like this noe just to get back on our feet to intelligence. So now God can do anytihng. no matter how stupid, impossible, foolish, idiotic, crazy and whatever it might look to us.And besides if i may ask ' what really makes you think that something is impossible for God? is it because it is not possible with man? let me put it this way to you, You invented a robot, is it possible for that robot to outsmart you? or better still, you created a garden with fences around it for you sheep, so that they wont escape, now just because yoursheep are to dump to know that there is a gate to open and then escape, does that mean you also who created the fence and garden would be stupid enough not to know that YOU created a gateway out of the garden? exactly the same thing God created this Garden(NATURE) and put us in there, that does not mean he exist and is bound by the same fences that bouind us, He created the GARDEN(NATURE) and sop he know where the BACKGATE is. so he is not bound by our limitations. aight. thats cool!!!
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justcool (m)
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@Lystola In miracles, God do not go against His laws i.e. laws of nature. The only difference between a miracle and a normal happening is the speed and energy involved. When a disease is healed, this does not go against the laws of nature which are also laws of God. The physical body (the way God designed it) is capable of getting rid of deadly germs (bacteria, viruses, etc) through the immune system. But this process of getting rid of disease, like every biological process takes time. Many processes are involved and all these process is fueled by the energy which the body derives from food. If any of the process is hindered, then the immune system might lose the battle against the parasite. But in the case of miracle, due to the healer’s ability to mediate energy from above; by praying or touching the sick person, energy flows through him and enters the sick person. This energy will help the biological processes within the body of the sick to speed up. Thus with an immune system renovated with energy, the body can now get rid of the disease in a far shorter time than it would have been able to if it was left alone. But this healing energy does not lie within the human body, neither does it lie within the human spirit. This energy lies in the power of God; the healer only mediates or passes this energy on to sick person. God can also send this energy directly to the sick person if the sick person humbly opens him/herself to it. The time of recovery depends on many things, i.e. the amount of energy that the healer can mediate, how far the disease has progressed, the psychic conduction of the sick person, and his spiritual condition. This is why with Jesus, so many things that man could not understand happened. Jesus could pray for a sick person and the person recovers instantaneously because Jesus could mediate more energy than any human can. His energy and power is Divine in which lies all power and energy. But humans can only mediate spiritual energy which is only a component of Divine energy or a step down of Divine energy. This Divine energy can speed things (recovery), faster than spiritual energy. Jesus, like every body had a radiation. But unlike humans His radiation was very strong and Divine, and the influx of this Divine radiation speeds up things around Him. The woman did not even have to touch Jesus' clothing; just being around Jesus a lot can bring about such healing. Even humans radiate, we radiate and our radiated energy permeates and affects our environment. This, even science can confirm this fact, and also sensitive people and some animals can see these radiation. From this natural law of radiation, it's easy to explain what happened with the woman that touched Jesus' robe and got healed. Everything that Jesus used all the time--the cloths He was wearing, the words He spoke, even the air around Him-- were all permeated with very strong Divine radiation which has a healing and a speeding-up effect on nature. But this energy which comes from God can only follow the paths God made for it i.e. the laws of nature. It cannot change, annul or contradict the laws of nature; it can only speed up nature. The laws of nature were set in place by God and one has to be more powerful than God to annul these laws. Since none is more powerful than God, none can change the laws of nature. God Himself will never contradict, oppose, annul or change these laws of nature because the laws are living expressions of the will of God which is perfect from the beginning and will for ever remain perfect. In these laws of nature which are laws of God, there is no room for improvement because they perfect! Jesus lived a natural life and did not go against the laws of nature. He was happy within the boundaries of the Laws of His father. Everything He did can be explained, He did not annul any natural laws, the only difference is that with Him natural process can speed-up because of His enormous energy. In the gospel of Mathew, Jesus was reported to have said: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."(Matthew 5:17) Remember, the laws of nature are also the laws of God, and no part of the natural laws will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Apart from the fact that nobody can ever change the laws, in the case of Jesus and God, the desire to change the laws of nature will not even arise in them. Part of Jesus mission is to show man that one can live happily and without sin within the laws of his creator. Thus if in the case of Jesus the laws were changed, then man cannot be blamed for being a sinner. Then man can tell God, "If your laws are so perfect why did you change it for your son!" But man cannot say that to God because Jesus was subjected to every natural law that all men are subject to, yet He overcame all temptations. In this lies the greatness of Jesus and the testimony to the perfection of the laws of God which includes the laws of nature.
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kola oloye (m)
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In miracles, God do not go against His laws i.e. laws of nature. The only difference between a miracle and a normal happening is the speed and [i]energy involved. Apart from the fact that nobody can ever change the laws, in the case of Jesus and God, the desire to change the laws of nature will not even arise in them. Part of Jesus mission is to show man that one can live happily and without sin within the laws of His creator. Thus if in the case of Jesus the laws were changed, then man cannot be blamed for being a sinner. Then man can tell God, "If your laws are so perfect why did you change it for your son!" But man cannot say that to God because Jesus was subjected to every natural law that all men are subject to, yet He overcame all temptations. In this lies the greatness of Jesus and the testimony to the perfection of the laws of God which includes the laws of nature.
To some extent i believe you were right but have you considered what happened when Joshua commanded the sun to stand still,till they finished their enemies?Have you also thought about Elijah that locked up rain for three solid years?Are all these according to the law of nature? Jesus said "you shall decree a thing and it shall be established" he went further by saying "Whosoever shall say unto this mountain, be thou removed and does not doubt in his heart shall have the mountain removed".The mountain could be anything,that is the access to MIRACLE. Miracle is anything that is beyond human comprehension.In as much as we believe in miracle at all we must totally agree that nothing is impossible.
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m_nwankwo (m)
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@Lystola
In several threads on this forum, I have extensively discussed miracles. I will not repeat the same points here. Just some brief points.
1. Miracles are a fufilment of the laws of God, not a negation or change or annulment of those laws. God is not an earthly ruler that promogates decrees , recognises the limitations of the decrees, annuls them and decree new ones to address the limitation of earlier ones. Gods laws are expressions of his will and they are perfect since God enacted them out of omniscience wisdom. Miracles are what men think is impossible, but they only think so since the observation of it happening is a proof that it is possible. What is really impossible (not because men think it is) will NEVER happen. When diseases that are considered incurable are cured, it does not mean that the laws of God are annuled, it only shows deficiencies in human knowlegdge and that men never boardered to understand the laws of God. Men thus postulated based on their own limitations and thus here and there they are proved to be wrong since what they thought was impossible became possible. Similarly because men never boardered to investigate the laws of God, they also think that certain things are possible when in reality, they are impossible according to the laws of God. The fact that they are impossible is poven by the fact that such event NEVER happened even for once. Thus believers with such wrong expectations end up in unfilled hopes and shattered dreams.
2. Most often miracles are a speed up of the natural process due to the power given to an individual by God. Thus what will take a thousand earth years may happen in a minute. In exceptional cases, a miracle may be something beyoud the present state of development. It may be something that will take thousands of earth years to become naturally evident but through the power of God can be made to happen instanteneously. What is in creation are part laws, indeed the laws of nature are just a part of the all embracing laws of God. Only God carries all the laws, indeed God is the origin of these laws. Therefore God has a living power which you cannot find within his creations. Jesus, being a son of God has this power and did bring about happenings which both in type and speed is beyound the capacity of anything created. Jesus was able to bring these instanteneous events because he carries all the laws within himself. However even for a son of God, he is also bound to the laws which he himself is the origin. Thus for instance when devil tempted him to change stones to bread, Jesus did not yeild to the temptation because he in his omniscience wisdom knew that it is impossible to convert stones to bread. The devil wanted to undermine the work of the son of God by asking him to do the impossible. Jesus did not fall to that snare. That should teach some lessons to those who want to hear.
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m_nwankwo (m)
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Kola oloye,
It is impossible to command the son to stand still. Even a second deviation in the movement of the son will throw the entire milkway galaxy into pertubations. There is no evidence today to corroborate that anectodal report in your sacred text. We have discussed this in detail on the thread concerning the miracles of pastor chris oyakilome. It is within the laws of God for rain not to fall in a particular aread for three years or more.
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justcool (m)
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To some extent i believe you were right but have you considered what happened when Joshua commanded the sun to stand still,till they finished their enemies?
@kola oloye It is impossible for the sun to stand still, such an event will bring catastrophes that will destroy the earth. The same laws of nature that is applicable on earth runs through the whole universe, ie the law of gravity it not only applicable to the earth but to the enteir universe. We know that it is the revolution of the earth around it's axis that causes day and night ie what appears to be the movement of the sun. Therefor for the sun to appear standing still, it is the earth that will stop revolving around it's axis. This is not possible without the destruction of the earth because apart from revolving around it's axis, the earth also rotate around the sun with a velocity that is very critical to it's distance from the sun. It is this velocity(the revolution and rotation of the earth) that allows the earth to remain at a certain distance from the sun because the velocity provides a centrifugal force that balances the gravitational pull of the sun. Therefore if the earth ever stops moving, it will immediately fall towards the sun and get incinerated. This is just a brief and very broad picture, if you go into details you will discover that more catastrophes will happen not only to the earth but other planetry bodies ie the moon which is also held at a distance by the combined effect of many forces -- gravitational pull of the earth, the speed of the earth, the sizes of the earth and moon, and the velocity of the moon. The whole universe is connected and motion keeps the order; if the motion of any of the bodies is impeded a catastrophe will result which will destroy the whole. Now to Joshua: 1.) Has it ever occurred to you that the story may have been a metaphor and not to be taken literally. Perhaps praying for the sun(the source of light) to stand still till he finished his enemies might have been a metaphor that God( the source of spiritual light) stood by him till he finished his enemies. 2.) Perhaps the writer of the story witnessed a supra-earthly happening and mixed it with earthly happen. In higher planes of existence, distance and time are not the same with earthly distance and time. ie a thousand years on earth is only like one year in paradise. You might have also experienced this phenomenon through dreams. You might dream of an entire lifespan only to wake up and find that you have only slept for thirty minutes! Perhaps the writer of the story was shown a battle in vision which timing he compared to an earthly timing. Example I could fall into a trance at 1.00Pm and in my trance I could be shown the whole 2nd world war (from the beginning to the end) and when I wake I notice that the time is still 1.30pm. This might lead me to write that the whole 2nd world war lasted only 30 minutes. The sun might have been over his head when he was shown the vision and afterwards he noticed the sun was still over his head and he reported that the whole battle happened while the sun stood still. So many things could have been the case. Search for the truth within what is possible in the laws of nature. Have you also thought about Elijah that locked up rain for three solid years? Are all these according to the law of nature?
It is possible to pray and as a result prevent rain from falling for three years. The case of Elijah was not an isolated case, such things have happend in history many times and they still happen today. Lets go into the scientific explanation as to why rain fall. First due to the sun's heat, the waters on the land, sea, lake, well's etc evaporate. Once evaporated, they become water in gaseous state and due to the lightness of the gasses they rise high in the atmosphere to a rigion coresponging to their weight. Due to the coldness of the atomshpere, they lose their heat and begin to condense. The air currents carry both the gaseous water(vapor) and condensed water(liquid) around in the atmosphere. As they condense, they become liquid again and thus heavy. Once they get too heavy, obeying the law of gravity, they fall towads the earth as rain. This is a summery of the process as science have observed it. Science can observe everything material but it cannot observe the non material things(non- physical). Therefore science cannot see that every part and processes of nature is supervised by non-physical beings who are servants of God. These beings are active in the air, in the water, and on the earth, supervising, speeding-up or delaying natural processes with their radiations. In the past some men have seen these beings, and called them angels, nature spirits, fairies etc. Animals, up till today, still see these beings. At the behest of God due to Elijah's prayer, these beings only need to speed-up the air currents or delay the currents of air that carries the condensed water. They can chanell these currents of air away from a particular region of the earth. This will prevent rain from falling in that particuler region for years because the air currents carring condensed water are channelled to other parts of the earth. This speeding-up, delaying or channelling of the air currents does not go against the laws of nature. Even you can decide to Chanel more air into your room by opening a window and turning-on the fan which speeds-up air. By doing this you did not go against th laws of nature rather you applied it. Thus these non-physical servants of God cannot annul the laws of nature which are impossible to be annulled.
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kola oloye (m)
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@kola oloye It is impossible for the sun to stand still, such an event will bring catastrophes that will destroy the earth. The same laws of nature that is applicable on earth runs through the whole universe, ie the law of gravity it not only applicable to the earth but to the enter universe. We know that it is the revolution of the earth around it's axis that causes day and night ie what appears to be the movement of the sun. Therefor for the sun to appear standing still, it is the earth that will stop revolving around it's axis. This is not possible without the destruction of the earth because apart from revolving around it's axis, the earth also rotate around the sun with a velocity that is very critical to it's distance from the sun. It is this velocity(the revolution and rotation of the earth) that allows the earth to remain at a certain distance from the sun because the velocity provides a centrifugal force that balances the gravitational pull of the sun. Therefore if the earth ever stops moving, it will immediately fall towards the sun and get incinerated. This is just a brief and very broad picture, if you go into details you will discover that more catastrophes will happen not only to the earth but other planetry bodies ie the moon which is also held at a distance by the combined effect of many forces -- gravitational pull of the earth, the speed of the earth, the sizes of the earth and moon, and the velocity of the moon. The whole universe is connected and motion keeps the order; if the motion of any of the bodies is impeded a catastrophe will result which will destroy the whole. Now to Joshua: 1.) Has it ever occurred to you that the story may have been a metaphor and not to be taken literally. Perhaps praying for the sun(the source of light) to stand still till he finished his enemies might have been a metaphor that God( the source of spiritual light) stood by him till he finished his enemies. 2.) Perhaps the writer of the story witnessed a supra-earthly happening and mixed it with earthly happen. In higher planes of existence, distance and time are not the same with earthly distance and time. ie a thousand years on earth is only like one year in paradise. You might have also experienced this phenomenon through dreams. You might dream of an entire lifespan only to wake up and find that you have only slept for thirty minutes! Perhaps the writer of the story was shown a battle in vision which timing he compared to an earthly timing. Example I could fall into a trance at 1.00Pm and in my trance I could be shown the whole 2nd world war (from the beginning to the end) and when I wake I notice that the time is still 1.30pm. This might lead me to write that the whole 2nd world war lasted only 30 minutes. The sun might have been over his head when he was shown the vision and afterwards he noticed the sun was still over his head and he reported that the whole battle happened while the sun stood still.
So many things could have been the case. Search for the truth within what is possible in the laws of nature. It is possible to pray and as a result prevent rain from falling for three years. The case of Elijah was not an isolated case, such things have happend in history many times and they still happen today. Lets go into the scientific explanation as to why rain fall. First due to the sun's heat, the waters on the land, sea, lake, well's etc evaporate. Once evaporated, they become water in gaseous state and due to the lightness of the gasses they rise high in the atmosphere to a rigion coresponging to their weight. Due to the coldness of the atomshpere, they lose their heat and Begin to condense. The air currents carry both the gaseous water(vapor) and condensed water(liquid) around in the atmosphere. As they condense, they become liquid again and thus heavy. Once they get too heavy, obeying the law of gravity, they fall towads the earth as rain. This is a summery of the process as science have observed it. Science can observe everything material but it cannot observe the non material things(non- physical). Therefore science cannot see that every part and processes of nature is supervised by non-physical beings who are servants of God. These beings are active in the air, in the water, and on the earth, supervising, speeding-up or delaying natural processes with their radiations. In the past some men have seen these beings, and called them angels, nature spirits, fairies etc. Animals, up till today, still see these beings. At the behest of God due to Elijah's prayer, these beings only need to speed-up the air currents or delay the currents of air that carries the condensed water. They can chanell these currents of air away from a particular region of the earth. This will prevent rain from falling in that particuler region for years because the air currents carring condensed water are channelled to other parts of the earth. This speeding-up, delaying or channelling of the air currents does not go against the laws of nature. Even you can decide to Chanel more air into your room by opening a window and turning-on the fan which speeds-up air. By doing this you did not go against th laws of nature rather you applied it. Thus these non-physical servants of God cannot annul the laws of nature which are impossible to be annulled.
My brother,i'm also a science student but when it comes to "the supernatural" all these theories must bow for the Creator. Hear what the bible says in the book of 1st corinthians 2 from verse 11 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. WITH GOD NOTHING SHALL BE IMPOSSIBLE
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justcool (m)
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@kola oloye In the scripture that you quoted, I don't see where it says that God changes the laws of nature. But there is no need for long arguments, can you show me just one evidence that you personally witnessed where God broke the laws of nature.
Show me Just one event where the laws of nature was broken in your presence.
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kola oloye (m)
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@justcool, What would you ever believe?What are you saying about the issue of Gideon asking the sun to move backwards by 10 degrees? Please give me two reasons each on: why February is the least of all the months ALSO why all the months are not having equal days. Waiting in anticipation. Thank you
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lystola
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@justcool, you know what,i am a scientist myself, i love science, and one of the things i love about it is that we alsways try to explain everything away in our own terms even those which we do not seem to understand, we look for ways to cloud and shroud and then explain it away. concerning my last post, yes i agree God is not a earthly government that would negate what he has established,Yes. agreed. now how come you only explained away the healing of diseases where did the ascension of Jesus go to, hmm, let me guess he did not really ascend and Elijah was not realy taken up by a Chariot of fire, they were both swept by wind or a large kite was used to take them away or a rope was thrown from heaven and they climbed on it right.? just kidding. but anyway really, if you say miracles are just NATURAL things that are quickened by 'DIVINE ENERGY', then how long would it have taken Mary's egg to have become a baby without a sperm??? or how long and how much 'divine energy ' would it have required for Jesus walking on water? but don't worry i wont bother expecting you to understand because you and your bros over here nwankwo,are so full of understanding to be able to explain and sweep anything that does not stand to agree with your perspective into a vortex of Logical explanation. See, i am not trying to convince you of my own perspective, i have been able to see your reasons, and i understand your debate, and i respect it. but all i need for you to know is that speaking as a scientist, Miracles are just natural occurence that are interwined with spiritual backings or like oyu put it, Divine Energy, but as a Christian Miracles are Spritual occurence that are made manifest in the natural realm. this are two parallel views, now as a scientist i agree with your point, yes you are right, and also as a Christian i uphold my ground to say that for every natural occurencce there is a spiritual backing. And i dare say that, without being biased,the spiritual has a whole lot of things that even Us Christians do not understand but are gaining Knowledge in,we admit that. but can we all as scientist really come to admit that that are things in science we do not really understand? There is a whole lot of things we do NOT know about the things we DO know.I n both Spiritual and Scientific, there are unknowns, but you know the thing, how many are ready to admit this unknowns. As a christian, God is the basis of my Spirituality, i do not know him fully, but everyday i nkow him more and more, and for everything i do not understand, i stand yto say that i ask him to teach me, and make me understand,issues like, what happened before the begining that was recorded in the bible? things like that. but you know what. can you as a scientist stand up to own up to thigs you do not understand? and admit you do not undtand, rather than gruging up and looking for ways to explain the unexplainable away. well if everything is explainable and ordinary, then why do we have words, like Extraordinary and Phenomenon.
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huxley (m)
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@justcool, you know what,i am a scientist myself, i love science, and one of the things i love about it is that we alsways try to explain everything away in our own terms even those which we do not seem to understand, we look for ways to cloud and shroud and then explain it away.
Whereabout in the scientific enterprise are scientist trying to cloud and shroud things. The goal of science is to bring light where hitherto there is darkness. This does not mean science currently has an answer for everything. If you are a scientist you seemed not to have understood the basis precepts and motivations of science. I doubt you would make a good scientist. As a matter of curiosity, can you give examples where science deliberately seeked to cloud and shroud and explain things away?
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lystola
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@huxley, hmm, the Bermuda triangle!!! is one very intresting one.  . i don't need to be a good scientist by, being to proud to aadmit my lapses, if you don't know something, is it not wisdom for you to say so and open grounds for learning and corrections, instead of just giving opinion, you yourself know you can't solidify. the Bermuda triangle is one of things like that. its still inexplainable from my own point of view,all science is doing is explaining what they themselves do not understand.
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huxley (m)
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@huxley, hmm, the Bermuda triangle!!! is one very intresting one.  . i don't need to be a good scientist by, being to proud to aadmit my lapses, if you don't know something, is it not wisdom for you to say so and open grounds for learning and corrections, instead of just giving opinion, you yourself know you can't solidify. the Bermuda triangle is one of things like that. its still inexplainable from my own point of view,all science is doing is explaining what they themselves do not understand. What about the Burmuda triangle? What is the current "scientific theory" about the Bermuda triangle? Enlighten me please, how science clouds "facts" about BT.
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lystola
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hello, educate yourself man, visit Wikipedia or google and see for yourself, all the comotion going on. its a rumble and jumble out there. then come back and give me an insightful report. okay. of why no one has been able to give reasonable answers to it all.  al dios senio.
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huxley (m)
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hello, educate yourself man, visit Wikipedia or google and see for yourself, all the comotion going on. its a rumble and jumble out there. then come back and give me an insightful report. okay. of why no one has been able to give reasonable answers to it all.  al dios senio. The most plausible explanation I have come across for BT is that this area suffers from excessive gaseous release (methane) which may affect the buoyancy of vessels on the sea and the stability of aircraft above. These are purely natural events and I don't see why scientist would be interested in hiding this from the public. Whose purpose would that serve?
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lystola
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@  hurray! hurray!! hurray!!! huxley, you performed as expected, you are so predictable, and sorry please do not this personal, don't you think you are being a victim of the very thing you wrote as your name tag? come on do you have to be so gullible to believe every and anything.come on, grow up.
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m_nwankwo (m)
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@justcool, you know what,i am a scientist myself, i love science, and one of the things i love about it is that we alsways try to explain everything away in our own terms even those which we do not seem to understand, we look for ways to cloud and shroud and then explain it away. concerning my last post, yes i agree God is not a earthly government that would negate what he has established,Yes. agreed. now how come you only explained away the healing of diseases where did the ascension of Jesus go to, hmm, let me guess he did not really ascend and Elijah was not realy taken up by a Chariot of fire, they were both swept by wind or a large kite was used to take them away or a rope was thrown from heaven and they climbed on it right.? just kidding. but anyway really, if you say miracles are just NATURAL things that are quickened by 'DIVINE ENERGY', then how long would it have taken Mary's egg to have become a baby without a sperm??? or how long and how much 'divine energy ' would it have required for Jesus walking on water? but don't worry i wont bother expecting you to understand because you and your bros over here nwankwo,are so full of understanding to be able to explain and sweep anything that does not stand to agree with your perspective into a vortex of Logical explanation. See, i am not trying to convince you of my own perspective, i have been able to see your reasons, and i understand your debate, and i respect it. but all i need for you to know is that speaking as a scientist, Miracles are just natural occurence that are interwined with spiritual backings or like oyu put it, Divine Energy, but as a Christian Miracles are Spritual occurence that are made manifest in the natural realm. this are two parallel views, now as a scientist i agree with your point, yes you are right, and also as a Christian i uphold my ground to say that for every natural occurencce there is a spiritual backing. And i dare say that, without being biased,the spiritual has a whole lot of things that even Us Christians do not understand but are gaining Knowledge in,we admit that. but can we all as scientist really come to admit that that are things in science we do not really understand? There is a whole lot of things we do NOT know about the things we DO know.I n both Spiritual and Scientific, there are unknowns, but you know the thing, how many are ready to admit this unknowns. As a christian, God is the basis of my Spirituality, i do not know him fully, but everyday i nkow him more and more, and for everything i do not understand, i stand yto say that i ask him to teach me, and make me understand,issues like, what happened before the begining that was recorded in the bible? things like that. but you know what. can you as a scientist stand up to own up to thigs you do not understand? and admit you do not undtand, rather than gruging up and looking for ways to explain the unexplainable away. well if everything is explainable and ordinary, then why do we have words, like Extraordinary and Phenomenon.
Any scientist that is worth the name does not explain away things he doesnot understand. Science is based on evidence and no peer refreed scientific journal will accept an article where their is no evidence to support the conclusions. Not only that, the evidence must be reproducible by other scientists. The physical body of Jesus was procreated physically, if not, an earthly birth would have been impossible. It is also impossible for a physical body to ascend to heaven since heaven is not physical but spiritual. Jesus did not decend to earth with a physical body. He picked the physical body on earth and he discarded it on earth. Jesus ascended to heaven with a non-earthly body.
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kola oloye (m)
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Any scientist that is worth the name does not explain away things he doesnot understand. Science is based on evidence and no peer refreed scientific journal will accept an article where their is no evidence to support the conclusions. Not only that, the evidence must be reproducible by other scientists.
The physical body of Jesus was procreated physically, if not, an earthly birth would have been impossible. It is also impossible for a physical body to ascend to heaven since heaven is not physical but spiritual. Jesus did not decend to earth with a physical body. He picked the physical body on earth and he discarded it on earth. Jesus ascended to heaven with a non-earthly body.
For the first time you gave me an element of truth. I need a little time to ponder and to seek the face of God for clarity. Thank you. 
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huxley (m)
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@  hurray! hurray!! hurray!!! huxley, you performed as expected, you are so predictable, and sorry please do not this personal, don't you think you are being a victim of the very thing you wrote as your name tag? come on do you have to be so gullible to believe every and anything.come on, grow up. Why the triumphalism. What victory have you won, if there ever was victory to be won. What shows I am being gullible. If you are going to make such remarks, you may at the very least show evidence that I am being gullible. I said the most plausible explanation for what I have heard about BT is the gaseous explosion hypothesis. Now, this is the explanation that seems to fit most of the facts on the ground. This is what I said; The most plausible explanation I have come across for BT is that this area suffers from excessive gaseous release (methane) which may affect the buoyancy of vessels on the sea and the stability of aircraft above. These are purely natural events and I don't see why scientist would be interested in hiding this from the public. Whose purpose would that serve?
I would like you to challenge this hypothesis, or come up with better one (or the explanation that seems plausible to you). Otherwise you have no platform to shout hooray. BTW, you claim early to be a scientist, yet you do not come across as one: Scientist speak on the basis of facts, evidence, hypothesis, theories, verifiability, falsifiability etc. But your vocabulary is devoid of these terms. How bizarre!
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justcool (m)
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@lystola I'm happy that m_nwankwo has answered your question. To add to what m-nwankwo already said, I have this to say: What the apostles witnessed was not an earthly happening. Out of the love of God, their spiritual eyes (or non earthly eyes) were opened so that they could see what was happening spiritually. They witnessed Jesus ascend into the Divine or a higher realm with their spiritual eyes.
Now comming to the law of gravity. The law of gravity does not say that everything must fall to the earth. Simply, the law states that everything falls or ascends to a level corresponding to it's weight. Let us for example consider a Helium-filled balloon. Helium being very light and it's lightness corresponds to a very high place in the atmosphere far above the earth. But when Helium is captured in a balloon and tied to a heavy rod, depending on the size of the helium-filled balloon, it's buoyancy may not lift up the rod. So if thrown from the top of a building it falls towards the earth due to the heaviness of the rod. This is obeying the law of gravity. But as soon as the rope connecting the balloon to the heavy rod is severed, the helium-filled balloon automatically floats high above the earth, upwards towards the region corresponding to it's weight. This is also obeying gravity, and not contrary to it. Science describes the equation for physical gravity: objects attract each other with a force directly proportional to their masses and inversely proportional to their distances. Therefore an object of very low density(Low mass)--the helium balloon--will have a very weak attraction towards to the earth. The Helium-filled balloon will rise above the earth as opposed to the piece of iron, which will sink towards the earth. Because the product of the mass of the helium-filled balloon and the mass of the earth is not as much as the product of the masses of the earth and the piece of rod. Rod or iron being a very dense object will have a grater force of attraction to the earth due to combined mass of the earth and the piece of iron, which is enormous.
Now coming to the ascension of Jesus. Man on earth is like a helium-filled balloon. Man on earth is made up of two parts: the physical body and the spirit(very broadly speaking). The helium-filled balloon represents the spirit and the piece of rod tied to the balloon represents the physical body. The spirit is not earthly, it is made up of lighter substance, but the physical body is earthly and made up of earthly or physical substances. Due to the weight of the physical body, it is held on earth or the physical world. But it is also tied to the spirit and it is this tie or this connection that keeps the spirit on earth. But once this tie is severed, through the death of the physical body, the spirit is freed and can now float to a region corresponding to it's weight. Just like a Helium-filled balloon floats when freed. This process does not go against gravity.
Now returning to the ascension of Jesus. Jesus having discarded His physical body and other bodies, could now float to the rigion corresponding to His weight. Jesus being of Divine origin could only return or float back to the Divine which is the lightest and highest region. A region even higher the the spiritual realm. Out of His great love for His apostles who were mourning Him on earth, the apostle's spiritual eyes were opened so that they could witness the acsenion of their LORD in to a higher plane. It was not His physical body that the apostles saw ascending, it was a non-earthly body. This does not go against gravity which is a law that runs throughtout creation and can never be broken.
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lystola
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@m_nwankwo, finally you speak a word of plain sensibility, without being biased! yeah thx a lot for being plain. good. now from this point, may i say that how many people are aware of what peered refreed journals are saying,.my point is what is in circulation is mostly hwat some "hobbieist" i wont call them scientist cook up and feed to the people. check google, there is more than enough garbage about BT to last the entire human race for generations. @justcool, i would say 10Q for that explanation, it really does sheda light on the issue of your point and i would admit i learnt from it. thx a lot. @huxley, lol, thx for pointing out the fact that i do not speak and explain my words in scientific terms and do not come across with my point as a scientist, but if i am to do that, wont we all be talking from the same point of view, and no one will be outside the box to look at things from a different perspective. because to my own understanding, if i was to do as you request, then i believe we would have rounded up this thread a little while ago, because it would end to us agreeing about it all as a gru\oup of scientist would, now not that i am prolonging the discussion, but i feel, someone out of the game is usually necessary to help see, the unseen loop holes left in the game. besides, my hurray is not one of victory that i won the arguement it was one of sarcasicm, that ipredicyed how you would reply my post.if you read my post well you would see, what i mean. Now to the point of, what i believe is plauseable about the BT, the metane release,looks good to explain it, and i would say i personally, have thought about the plausability of the thesis, and come to some likeable agreement but still i have some unanswered questions that i have been trying to find answers to.and this questions give me the perspective that this thesis is not accurate( well, wats the point thank God its a thesis and not a Theory). 1. what is the cause of the constant relese of Methane?because if that can be identified, it gives a litle edge on solving the chaos. 2. if methane is at constant presence in that area, then don't you think thatp alce should be frequented with explosions,( even on water)considering that methane is "xplosive".? 3.Methane being poisonous should inhibit the rate of marine life in that vicinity. 4.where did the planes that were claimed to have disappeared, go to? at least a crash site should be stated, or the reckage submerged if it fell in water. 5.how does the methane or whatever wlse explain, the case of a man who disappeardd for over a decade or so,who now appeared later on, and the fish he caught before disappearing was still alive as well.? and a host of qwuestions like that. anyway. it simple, more answers will only bring more questions, but i guess we can continue then.
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justcool (m)
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@justcool, What would you ever believe?What are you saying about the issue of Gideon asking the sun to move backwards by 10 degrees? Please give me two reasons each on: why February is the least of all the months ALSO why all the months are not having equal days. Waiting in anticipation. Thank you
@Kola oloye I'm sorry for relying so late. I didn't your post above till today. Now coming to your question. 1.) February has the least number of days because that's how the Romans designed their calendar. The calendar we use today was invented by the Romans. Other cultures invented different calendar's and some of them have more or less equal days in all the months. I don't know where you are going with this question, but I wish to let you know that the inequality in the number of days in the month is only a problem created by man. Calendars are made by man in his quest to measure time so as to plan his activities. The perfection and imperfections found in different peoples calendars is due to the people's culture, climate, and mathematical ability. But time itself is perfect, eternal and standing still, because time is the work of God. Time actually does not move or pass as people have erroneously thought. Time stands still. It is we humans that pass through time and we do our activities within time. We measure the duration of our activity and ascribe it to time. But Time actually stands on it's own. Calendars, counting days and years makes people have the wrong idea of time; it makes one think that time passes. But time does not pass, it is we and our activities that passed through time. I hope this is clear enough, I can elaborate more it you want me to. 2)The earth revolves around the sun in 365 days and 6 hours. Now the roman calendar has 12 months. If you divide 365 and 6 hours by 12 you will have 30.4 days and 6 hours. This creates a mathematical problem because you cannot have 0.4 days and 6 hours as a day. This extra 6 hours add up to 24 hours(which is equal to 1 day) in 4 years. So every 4 years(leap year) we add 1 extra day to February. You can see that all these inaccuracies is as a result of man. The calendar remains the work of man. Man invents the calendar in his quest measure duration. ie the duration of time it takes the earth to circle the sun, we call it a year. Here we are using the movement of the earth(climate) as a reference of time. But time itself does not change and is not limited to the movement of the sun. Time existed before the sun and the earth. I summarize my points: 1) Time is perfect. Time is eternal. Time does not move or pass. Time is the work of God. 2) Calendars are imperfect. Calendars are mans attempt to measure duration. Calendars are the work of man. The unequal number of days in February and other months are due to the imperfection of the Roman calendar. The imperfection resulted from man trying to divide the duration of the earth's motion around the sun into 12 months. I don't know where you are going whit those questions but I hope I have answered them. Thanks and remain blessed.
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fyneguy
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@Just Cool
I noticed something in your line of thought, especially your responses to whatever seems not to conform to your "divine Energy" theory of Miracles, such that it only speeds up the so called natural process. hence, no natural law is expected to be broken.
When Kola cited instances from the bible, you doubted they ever happened. You demanded evidences from him.
First, where did you learn the concept of "Divine Energy" from, as it relates to miracle? How were you so convinced that the concept was right?
Do you believe Jesus, and Peter, walked on water? was it a miracle? was no natural law broken in the process?
When Moses' rod turned to snake, what concept explains that?
well Joseph's sperm didn't fertilize Mary's egg, yet she conceived Jesus. Natural law? May be it was Joseph's 'radiation' that produced spiritual sperm?
Now, Jesus raised Lazarus. Was it within the natural law, for a dead Lazarus to be so raised?
Since, miracle seems to be an explainable phenomenon to you, when you are done with these, I will send you more miracle stories to 'help' us explain.
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justcool (m)
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@fyneguy Thanks for your questions. Please take time to read this long post. I’m sorry for it’s length but I wish to answer your questions in detail, that’s why I posting this long post. I noticed something in your line of thought, especially your responses to whatever seems not to conform to your "divine Energy" theory of Miracles, such that it only speeds up the so called natural process. hence, no natural law is expected to be broken.
You are right that in my explanations there is no possibility of the breaking the laws of nature. I stand proudly by this statement and I challenge anybody to testify of witnessing the laws of nature being broken. Nobody can give me just one instance where he/she personally witnessed the laws of nature being broken. Where it appears to be, two things are always the reason: (1) The person witnessing the alleged annulment of the laws of nature does not understand the laws, thus when he/she sees the law applied in usual ways, he/she is fooled to think that the laws are broken. Example: A person who does not understand gravity in its entirety might think that airplanes annul the laws of gravity. (2) The person who appears to overide or annul the laws is only tricking the observers. Example: magicians and the ancient African native doctors(dibia in Igbo). Such people are only performing tricks which lead naive and superstitious people into believing that such persons have power or juju that can break the laws of nature. First, where did you learn the concept of "Divine Energy" from, as it relates to miracle? How were you so convinced that the concept was right?
I draw my spiritual knowledge from a book called, "In the light of Truth: The Grail Message." However my answers are drawn from my experiencing of the book. Thus my answers are not exactly lifted from the book word to word. Any imperfections found in my answers should be attributed to me and not to the book. I have found the book to live up to It's claim of answering every question concerning the human existence and spirituality. I have found the book to be foolproof. I advise you to pick a copy and read for yourself. Do you believe Jesus, and Peter, walked on water? was it a miracle? was no natural law broken in the process?
Jesus and Peter could not have walked on physical water with their physical bodies. The physical body, owing to its weight can only sink in water. However this is not so with other non-physical bodies. These non-physical bodies, due to the fact that they are made of lighter and non-physical substances are far lighter than the physical. We humans on earth, our innermost core is spirit and this spirit is covered by bodies which enable it to function actively in various planes of creation. The spirit on earth wears many non-physical bodies(astral, etherial, etc) and the heavy physical body as its outermost covering. When the physical body dies the soul(the spirit without the physical body) leaves the physical body but this soul is still conected to the astral body. In order for the spirit to ascend higher than the astral plane, it has to discard its astral body on the astral plane as it discarded its physical body on earth. So it enters the ethereal plane with its ethereal body as the outmost covering, and it must discard the ethereal body in the ethereal plane before it can rise into a higher plane. This goes on from plane to plane. And finally the spirit may be allowed to enter paradise (which is a spiritual place) with its spiritual body. The fact that there are many planes of creation is also mentioned in the bible. If you read Corinthians, the writer talks about a man caught up in the third heaven ( 2 Corinthians 2) The fact that there we also have different bodies is also mentioned in (1 Cor. 15: 40-41). Sometimes even while we alive on earth our soul(our spirit covered with subtler bodies) leaves our physical bodies momentarily, i.e. during sleep. Some dreams are not just a figment of the brain. Some dreams are actually experiences that we are having in the beyond with our non-physical bodies while our physical body sleeps. In dreams we can do some things that are impossible on earth depending on the plane that we are experiencing in the dream. Example: In some dreams we can fly, walk on air and water. (I have flown in my dreams). This is because our non-physical bodies are much lighter than the physical body, thus in some planes we have bodies so light that we can levitate, walk on air, walk on water etc. Now coming to walking on water. Perhaps it was a non-earthly happening, i.e. a dream. The apostles could have experienced walking on water with Jesus in a higher plane though what we call deam. But due to many mouth to mouth pass downs the story lost some of the elements in it. Remenber, the stories were written many years after Jesus, and some scholars think that these stories where not written by the disciples who saw Jesus personaly. The stories were written bassed on what the disciples said many years after their death. Perhaps the apostle’s inner (ethereal, astral, etc) eyes were opened momentarily and they saw what was happening in the beyond --They saw Jesus with His non-physical body. Such things (people seeing the beyond while completely awake) still happen today. My father once went to a funeral and saw the dead person standing by his body. My father was so socked from this experience. My grandmother saw her dead sister walk through a wall into her room and they had a conversation. In these cases the explanation is that, their(my father and my grand mother) non-physical eyes opened and they saw their departed relatives who were still around them but in a non-physical body. Perhaps a similar thing happened with the apostles. When Moses' rod turned to snake, what concept explains that?
This is complete fallacy. God did not need to play a magician for Pharo or the Egyptians. What's the point? Was the ALMIGHTY God competing with magiciains? Only magicians perform such tricks. It is impossible for a rod to turn into a snake. The ten plagues story is very true. And scientists have analyzed the ten plagues and comfired its possibility, each of the ten plagues had a scientific explanation. But this does not mean that It wasn’t God that ordered the plagues. The only possibility of rod turning into a snake is in a vision. Such visions could be shown to somebody in order to teach him a spiritual lesson. A man once saw in a vision that his wife turned into a snake. Later he found out that his wife was planning to kill him. Such a vision was shown to Moses -- when he dropped his staff and it became a snake and he was asked to pick it up again. This is a vision, it did not happen physically. Now learn the lesson of the vision shown to Moses. The staff represents the laws of God. As long as he holds the staff, it will aid and support his movement. But if he drops it or lets go of it, it will turn into a deadly snake. Explanation: As soon as you stand in the laws of God or hold on to God, His laws will guard, aid and support your life. But as soon as you let go of God(become a sinner), His laws will pay you back the wages of your sin --spiritual death. Another vision shown Moses was -- He put his hand into his bosom; and when he took it out, his hand was encrusted with snowy scales! I leave you to deduce the spiritual lesson. well Joseph's sperm didn't fertilize Mary's egg, yet she conceived Jesus. Natural law? May be it was Joseph's 'radiation' that produced spiritual sperm?
Jesus had a biological father. It is impossible to become pregnant without a biological sperm. Thus Mary's egg was fertilized the normal way. The only way an egg gets fertilized without sexual intercourse is through invitro fertilization. However this was not yet invented during the time of Mary and Jesus. Therefore Mary had a normal and natural fertilization. I don’t know whether it was Joseph or somebody else who impregnated Mary. But one thing is for sure: she got impregnated through the normal process, she was impregnated by a man. However Jesus conception was immaculate. An immaculate conception is a conception without sin and not a conception without sex. It is impossible to have a conception without sex, except in invitro fert. Sex itself is not a sin; sex only becomes a sin when there is no true love between the parties involved, and when it is accompanied by lust. Thus a couple with pure love for each other is married before God! With such a couple, sex is not wrong. Thus the sexual intercourse that yielded the physical body of Jesus was done without sin-- it was done without lust and by two descent people with pure love for each other. This purity that both parties had was what made the conception immaculate. And, only such purity can receive the incarnation of Jesus Who is Love. Love travels only in the ray of purity. Now, Jesus raised Lazarus. Was it within the natural law, for a dead Lazarus to be so raised?
It is very possible to raise somebody from the dead, provided that (1) The organs of the body have not been interfered with, i.e. removed, (2) the soul is still connected to the body, and (3) the body has not rottened or completely decayed. If you have followed my earlier explanations, I maintain that the physical body is only a cloak, a covering, or an instrument needed on the earth. The real man is the soul that works through the physical body or that is inside the physical body. The physical body and the soul are connected by the radiation of both the physical body and the soul, and also by the silver cord. It happens that due to disease or some conditions, the physical biological processes in the physical body ceases, and consequently the physical body loses its radiation. At this point the soul separates from the body since the body’s radiation that binds the soul to the body is no longer there. Thus the soul can no longer return to the body. This is what we call death. At this point the person is brain dead or clinically dead because most the biological processes in the body have stopped. But even at this point the silver cord which extends from the soul is still connected to the astral body, which is always connected to the physical body. Only when this silver cord is completely severed or disconnected is the person truly dead. Science and doctors can neither see this silver cord nor the soul and the astral body because they(the silver cord, the astral body, and the soul) are non-physical. But even the bible confirms the existence of the silver cord, in Ecclesiastes we read: “Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well. Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.” (NKJV) Eccl. 12:6-7 During sleep, due to the slowed down biological processes, the radiation of the body changes to the extent that the soul can momentarily leave the physical body and experience the higher plans. But during this period of the soul momentarily leaving the physical body, the soul is still connected to the physical body via the silver cord and the astral body. But in the case of death, the physical body has completely stopped functioning, and consequently lost it’s radiation; also the soul has severed or disconnected from the astral body and the silver cord has been broken, severed or detached. This detachment of the silver cord takes time; it can take days, weeks, or even months. Thus at the initial stages of death, when one somebody had just died, the soul is still connected to the physical body via the silver cord and the astral body. This is why the according to the bible Jesus said, “This child is not dead. She is only sleeping.”(Mark 5:38-39) i.e., the physical body is dead but the soul is still attached. At this period it is possible to bring the soul back to the physical body, but the physical body has to healed and made functional first before the soul can return. Thus Jesus with His divine energy healed the body and allowed energy to flow through it; this energy resuscitated the biological processes of the body which consequently produced the required radiation that the soul needs in-order to return to the body. And at the call of Jesus (Damsel arise, Lazarus come forth) the soul or the spirit reenters the body. Human beings gifted with high spiritual energy, and who have unswerving faith in the power of God can also bring dead people back to live, provided that the silver cord is still connected and the physical body and the astral body, and the bodies are still intact. The longer the person has been dead the more difficult it is to achieve this because as time progresses the silver cord weakens or loosens, until it completely severs. Thus in the case of Lazarus, although he has been dead for days, the silver cord has not been completely severed. It may have been impossible for a mare human being to being Lazarus back to life after days of being dead. But divine energy is more powerful than spiritual energy, hence Jesus could do it. Since, miracle seems to be an explainable phenomenon to you, when you are done with these, I will send you more miracle stories to 'help' us explain.
I'm always willing to share my views. Please bring more miracle stories, I will happily offer my views. Thanks and remain blessed.
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