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JeSoul (f)
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[frustrated]  [still frustrated] NO, it is not the same thing.
For crying out loud, go and read the Book. Start from the beginning and read the book. Your knowledge of it tells me that you have not. Look at the context in which it is used. this is why I stopped discussing with you. . . why won't you just simply answer the question! and stop telling me to go and study. The quote from your scripture is below. You said I am misunderstanding it, then please in all your wisdom explain what this verse means and is teaching That is all I am asking. Tobit 6:5-7, "Then the angel said to him: Take out the entrails of this fish, and lay up his heart, and his gall, and his liver for thee: for these are necessary for useful medicines. 6 And when he had done so, he roasted the flesh thereof, and they took it with them in the way: the rest they salted as much as might serve them, till they came to Rages the city of the Medes. 7 Then Tobias asked the angel, and said to him: I beseech thee, brother Azarias, tell me what remedies are these things good for, which thou hast bid me keep of the fish? 8 And the angel, answering, said to him: If thou put a little piece of its heart upon coals, the smoke thereof driveth away all kind of devils, either from man or from woman, so that they come no more to them." please please please - explain how the smoking of a fish can possibly drive out demons/evil? I also noticed that you didn't speak on the other lies. you have not finished answering one question and you want to dive into the others. . . let us take things one step at a time. I could but I'm hesitant to go into all that just yet, just prove to me you can answer my very simple question above, then we can progress into the other issues. |
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banni
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When the bible as we know it was complied it is generally believed a lot of manuscripts were left out as it would cause conflict with some teachings and was done in an attempt to try unify the faith. Here is a list believed to be missing .Some are due to just been destroyed even before the king james bible was even compiled ,some destroyed at THIS point and some just stacked away and not included. http://www.thelostbooks.com/list.htmHere is probably one of the most contrevsial ones which seems to point to mary magdelen been a possible apostle of Christ rather then just a saved prostitute http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm |
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OLAADEGBU (m)
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I will briefly itemise three reasons that explains how and why the New Testament was put together and then explain at another time if time permits, God willing.
The books of the New testament were written during the last half of the 1st century. This was because of the limitations of communication and transportation, which slowed down the time that it took the books to reach christians in churches that were scattered all over the then known world before the canon was finally settled.
The criteria for inclusion of books in the canon of the New Testament were as follows:
1. Apostolicity, i.e. written or sanctioned by an apostle;
2. Conformity to the rule of faith, i.e. consistent with both the Old Testament prophets and the New Testament apostles;
3. Widespread and continuous acceptance.
Councils only ratified what the church had already done; no council or pope imposed upon the churches books that they had not already accepted.
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~Lady~ (f)
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[frustrated] [still frustrated]
Whoa!!!! Girl, please take a chill pill, life is not that hard. RELAX. BREATHE IN, BREATHE OUT!!! Ok, hope your calm. Because your going to need it and patience to follow me where I am going. I promise I have a point and I am not deviating from the topic. Ok You ready here we go. But first this is why I stopped discussing with youwhy won't you just simply answer the question! and stop telling me to go and study. The quote from your scripture is below.
You said I am misunderstanding it, then please in all your wisdom explain what this verse means and is teaching That is all I am asking.
First of all there are many questions I have asked you that you never answered (don't even know what happened to them) so before you go off complaining about something, you must make sure that you don't do the same thing. Got it? Good. Second, I asked you to go read the book because if you did, you won't be asking that question. please please please - explain how the smoking of a fish can possibly drive out demons/evil?
To answer this we must also visit this (I promise there's a point, hopefully you will see it): The Bronze Serpent God asked Moses to "make a saraph (snake) and mount it on a pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it he will recover." Does this imply that a snake is the saviour of the people of Isreal? Does this imply that looking at a snake heals people? (Please answer, I promise I have a point here, when you do so, I will continue, as this would take dialogue I wish we were speaking face to face it would be so much easier) |
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~Lady~ (f)
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A Brief knowledge my people
Why did the Jews take out the books from the Torah?
The difference in the Catholic and Protestant Bibles arose in the following manner. The Jews livin in the few centuries beofer Christ were divided into two groups---the Jews dwelling in Palestine and speaking Hebrew, and the large number of Jews scattered throughout the Roman Empire and speaking the Greek anguage, a consequence of the conquest of Alexander the Great of Greece.
In several centuries before the coming of Christ, the Jews in Palestine re-examined and eliminated some of the books from the existing collection as not in harmony with the Law of Moses and as of doubtful inspiration. The Pharisees set up four criteria which their sacred books had to pass in order to be included in the revised Jewish canon:
1) They had to be in harmony with the Pentateuch (Torah or Law)
2) They had to have been written before the time of Ezra
3) Thay had to be written in hebrew
4) They had to have been written in Palestine
(So in other words, the rest of the Jews were irrelevant, because any book written by the other Jews are not divinely inspired, because they did not speak hebrew or did not reside in Palestine or lived after the time of Ezra. as you read below, notice that none of the books were eliminated because they were not in harmony with the Pentateuch)
The application of these arbitrary criteria eliminated Judith, written in Aramaic; Wissdom and 2 Maccabees, written in Greek; Tobit and parts of Daniel and Esther, written in Aramaic and outside of Palestine; Baruch, written outside of Palestine; and Sirach and 1 Maccabees, written after the time of Ezra. By the 1st Century after Christ, this revised canon was generally accepted by all the Jews.
From the earlies times, the Christian Curch recognizes the Jewish canon of the Gree-Roman tradition, or Alexandrine canon, as being the tru Bible. Jesus himself quoted from this Bible, and not until the Reformation was this canon seriously challenged.
These seven disputed books are also called the deuterocanonical books, while the rest of the books of the Old Testament comprise the protocanonical books. By protocanonical books is meant thae "books of the first canon," books of the Old Testament accepted by both Christians and Jews. The deuterocanonical books, "books of the second canon," are those sevenbooks found only in the Catholic canon.
Luther rejected the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament. At one time he also eliminated Hebrews, James, Jude, and the Apocalypse (Revelation) from the New Testament, but later Protestants reinserted them.
The books of the Bible were originally written in three languages: Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Aramaic is a branch of the Semitic languages and was the language used in Palestine in the time of Christ. It is the language Christ spoke. Hebrew is a Semitic language which originated in Canaan and which was passed on by Abraham and his descendants, reaching its greatest glory in the reigns of David and Solomon. It was the language of the Holy Land until about the 3rd Century B.C., when it was supplanted by Aramaic. The Greek language as used in the Bible is not the classical Greek as we know it today, but a dialect spread throughout the known world of the time by conquests of Alexander the Great
MOst of the books of the Old Testament were written in Hebrew, while all of the New Testament, exepting Matthew, was written in Greek. The Book of Wisdom and 2 Maccabees were also written in Greek. Portions of the Bok of Daniel, Ezra, Jeremiah, and Esther, and all of Tobit, Judth, and the Gospel of St. Matthew were written in Aramaic.
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imhotep
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I will briefly itemise three reasons that explains how and why the New Testament was put together and then explain at another time if time permits, God willing.
The books of the New testament were written during the last half of the 1st century. This was because of the limitations of communication and transportation, which slowed down the time that it took the books to reach christians in churches that were scattered all over the then known world before the canon was finally settled.
The criteria for inclusion of books in the canon of the New Testament were as follows:
1. Apostolicity, i.e. written or sanctioned by an apostle;
2. Conformity to the rule of faith, i.e. consistent with both the Old Testament prophets and the New Testament apostles;
3. Widespread and continuous acceptance.
Councils only ratified what the church had already done; no council or pope imposed upon the churches books that they had not already accepted.
@olaadegbu The books we are talking about here are all in the OLD testament. |
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imhotep
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More agreement between apocrypha and the NT.
1.
a) Wis. 5:17-20 => He shall take his zeal for armor and he shall arm creation to requite the enemy; He shall don justice for a breastplate and shall wear sure judgment for a helmet; He shall take invincible rectitude as a shield and whet his sudden anger for a sword, And the universe shall war with him against the foolhardy.
b) Eph. 6:13-17 =>
Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
2.
a) Sirach 27:6 => The fruit of a tree shows the care it has had
b) Matt. 7:16,20 => Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
3.
a) Sirach 15.11 => Say not thou, It is through the Lord that I fell away
b) James 1.13 => Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God
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OLAADEGBU (m)
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Let us delve into the characters and content of these so called "7 deleted books" to see whether they pass the criteria for their inclusion into the Old Testament canon.
Starting with the much quoted book of Tobit. This book was received as canonical by the council of Trent (1546) and is found in the Roman Catholic Bible. It was never included in the Hebrew Old Testament and is placed with the Apocrypha by Protestants.
The book, which may be described as a tale of pious fiction, was written by a devout Jew who was possibly a native of Palestine. A full-orbed monotheism is evident in the writer's conception of the transcendent deity who is referred to as "the God of our fathers"Tb.8:5, as "the King of heaven"Tb.13:7,11,15.
Hebrew and Aramaic fragments have been discovered at Qumran; from this some have argued that it is from a Semitic origin.
A number of historical as well as geographical errors militate against a date as early as the book purports to be from, and most scholars are inclined to date it around 200 BC or a little later. - iLumina Encyclopedia.
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imhotep
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Insert Quote
Let us delve into the characters and content of these so called "7 deleted books" to see whether they pass the criteria for their inclusion into the Old Testament canon.
Starting with the much quoted book of Tobit. This book was received as canoical by the council of Trent (1546) and is found in the Roman Catholic Bible. It was never included in the Hebrew Old Testament and is placed with the Apocrypha by Protestants.
The book, which may be described as a tale of pious fiction, was written by a devout Jew who was possibly a native of Palestine. A full-orbed monotheism is evident in the writer's conception of the transcendent deity who is referred to as "the God of our fathers"Tb.8:5, as "the King of heaven"Tb.13:7,11,15.
Hebrew and Aramaic fragments have been discovered at Qumran; from this some have argued that it is from a Semitic origin.
A number of historical as well as geographical errors militate against a date as early as the book purports to be from, and most scholars are inclined to date it around 200 BC or a little later. - iLumina Encyclopedia.
@olaadegbu The authors of ILumina were not around in the year 393 AD. They are feeding us with dogma, and I do not have to take their word for it. I have posted MANY cross-references between the NT and the apocrypha. I still have about 29 pages to go. ---- Let me re-post this cross-reference=-> a) Tobit 4.15 => Do that to no man which thou hatest b) Matthew 7.12 => Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. c) Luke 6.31 => And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. |
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imhotep
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a) 1 Macc. 2:52 => Was not Abraham found faithful in trial, and it was reputed to him as uprightness?
b) James 2:23 =>
And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.
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OLAADEGBU (m)
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Others are: The Wisdom of Jesus Ben Sirach (Ecclesiasticus)
The author used a false name as his own. His real name was simon son of Jesus son of Eleazar ben Sirach. He was a Hebrew sage who lived in the beginning of the 2nd century BC and taught in Jerusalem (Ecclus 50:27; cf 51:23ff).
The works bears the imprint of a man steeped in a tradition known as Sadducean. The author was a scribe who wished to give his teachings a more permanent form, for which he utilized the canonical Proverbs as a model. His instruction adheres closely to Jewish orthodoxy. The book was probably written about 180 BC.
Judith
This book was written in Hebrew but was never admitted into the Hebrew canon. Although recognised as canonical by the third council of Carthage (AD 397) and also by the council of Trent (AD 1545)
The book is an attempt by a Palestinian Jew to encourage his fellow Jews in resisting their enemies and in continuing to observe the law of God faithfully. Judith, the heroine, is blessed with the happy combination of a rigorous observance of the law and a cunning bravery amidst great danger.
Wisdom of Solomon: This book is falsely claimed to have been written by King Solomon so as to gain authority for the statements of the book concerning wisdom. It was probably written in the 1st century BC.
Baruch - works of several authors written around 582 BC - iLumina Encyclopedia |
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OLAADEGBU (m)
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This is what our Lord and Saviour, the author and finisher of our faith has to say to those who exalt and uphold their church tradition above the Word of God.
Matthew 15:1-9
1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me[/b].
9[b] But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
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OLAADEGBU (m)
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The apostle Paul rebuked Jews because of this sin: Tit 1:14;3:9; Gal.1:13-14; Col.2:8; 1Tim.1:4; 6:20
Titus 1:14 (King James Version)
"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."
Galatians 1:13-14 (King James Version)
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
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~Lady~ (f)
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It was never included in the Hebrew Old Testament and is placed with the Apocrypha by Protestants.
Go and ask the Jews. It was included and then taken out. Don't forget, Hebrews, James, Jude, were also called Apocrypha by Protestants so why are they included? |
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OLAADEGBU (m)
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The Holy Bible is the inspired word of God and is the only source of knowledge of the Almighty God to all mankind. It is the contact point between finite man with the Infinite God; and it’s prime purpose is to give mankind the revelation of God (2 Timothy 3:15-17). The Bible is severally referred to as the Holy Scriptures (Roman 1:2; 2 Timothy 3:15), the oracles of God (Romans 3:2; Hebrews 5:12), the Book of the Lord (Isaiah 34:16), The Word of God (Mark 7:13), the Word of Christ (Colossians 3:16) and the Word of Life (Philippians 2:16). It is in two major parts: the Old and the New Testaments. It consists of 66 books; 39 of which are in the Old Testament, 27 in the New Testament. The Bible was originally written predominantly in Hebrew and Greek. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew and Aramaic, while the New Testament was written in Greek language. Over 40 authors drawn from disparate generations spanning a period of over 1800 years, were used by God to write the Bible. Even though their occupations, education and social classes were divergent, their theme was the same as they were inspired by the Holy Ghost (2 Peter 1:20,21). The inspiration of the authors can be attested to by some peculiar characteristics of the Bible, which are not found in any other book written by man. Such characteristics include its wonderful unity despite the fact that the authors lived at different ages; the needs of all people irrespective of race and language; its superiority to other books; the influence on individuals and nations; its preservation over the centuries; its fulfilled prophesies (Isaiah 7:14; Ezekiel 36:19; 2 Chronicles 7:19,20) and its perfection (Psalms 19:7; James 1:25).
The Pre-eminence of the Bible (Isaiah 8:20; Psalms 119:89) makes it indispensable to all men today. While other books have limited influence on man, because they are products of finite minds, the Bible which is God’s revelation to man has solution to every problem today. Therefore, no man’s education is complete if he is ignorant of the provisions of the Bible. No Christian can live successfully without an adequate grasp of the Bible, and no Christian minister is really qualified for the ministry of the Church of Christ without a thorough knowledge of the Bible (2 Timothy 2:15). Without a ready knowledge of the Bible, the Christian worker cannot be effective.
The central theme of the Bible is CHRIST and HIS WORK OF REDEMPTION (John 20:31; Luke 24:25-27; Revelation 1:1). He is the Old Testament concealed, and He is the New Testament revealed. To fully understand the Bible and to rightly interpret its messages, we must first receive Jesus Christ as Saviour and have a clear and definite experience of conversion. Those who do not know Christ and those who have wrong conceptions about Christ cannot interprete the Bible appropriately because the carnal man cannot understand the things of the spirit (1 Corinthians 2:14).
The Bible has a Ministry to unbelievers as well as to believers . To unbelievers, the Bible brings conviction for sin which leads to repentance and faith in Christ Jesus. To believers the goals of the Bible are various: It is to make believers perfect (Psalm 119:9,11), to reveal the condition of their hearts (Hebrew 4:12; Jeremiah 17:9,10), it is a light to the believers feet (Psalms 119:105, 130), the food of the soul (Deuteronomy 8:3, John 21:17; Psalm 19:10; Matthew 4:4), a medicine to the body and soul (Proverb 4:20-22;Matthew 8:8; Ps 107:20); and the sword of the spirit (Ephesians 6:17; Matthew 4:1-11). It is a mirror to reflect (James 1:23); a hammer to convict, and fire to refine (Jeremiah 23:29); seed to multiply (I Peter 1:23); believer to cleanse (Ephesians 5:26; John 15:3); rain and snow to refresh (Isaiah 55:10); gold to enrich (Psalm 19:7-10); and power to create life and faith (I Peter 1:23; Romans 10:17).
The Bible is God’s inspired revelation of the origin and destiny of all things. It is the power of God unto eternal salvation and it is the source of present help for the whole spirit, soul and body(Romans 1:16; John 15:7; 1Thess.5:23). It is God’s will and testament to man in all ages, revealing the plan of God for man here and now and in the next life. It is the record of God’s dealing with men, past, present and future. It contains God’s message of eternal salvation to all who believe in Christ and of eternal damnation to those who rebel against the gospel (John 3:18,36).
The purpose of the Bible then is to reveal God to man, reveal man’s need of God and show man the way to God. Man by searching cannot find God except God makes Himself known to him (Job 11:7). The Bible also reveals to man how to live, and through the fulfillment of its prophecies, all human needs are met. We receive salvation, sanctification, Holy Ghost baptism, healing, deliverance, protection, etc.
For us to profit maximally from the study of the Bible, all hindrances to spiritual receptivity must be removed. These include hardened heart (Matthew 13:3-6, 18-21), double mindedness (James 1:8; Mark 4:15-17), pride (Deuteronomy 8:11-14; Psalms 101:5; Proverbs 18:12), carnality (I Corinthians 3:1-5), and unbelief (Matthew 13:58).
Every believer in the church today can benefit from the hidden treasures in the Bible. But this would require sacrifices on our part. Treasures are not found except by searching or digging earnestly. Likewise, deep Bible truths need be sought for and in doing this we will discover Christ the more (Colossians 2:3; John 5:39). Certain spiritual preparations are required from believers in order to discover these treasures that would make them develop into the fullness of the stature of Christ. There must be earnest love for truth for its own sake (Psalm 119:40,47,54,72,103); supreme love for God (Matthew 22:37; Deuteronomy 30:6; Psalm 73:25); and an intense desire to know more of Him (Psalm 42:1,2; 63:1). Also, there should be a strong desire to make Him known to others (Proverbs 11:24-26; Romans 9:1-3), willingness to make personal sacrifice to study (Matthew 13:44-46; 12:42), a sense of ignorance and dependence upon divine teaching and willingness to practice as far as you learn (Psalm 119:60,101,106; James 1:22-25; Ezra 7:10). Other requirements are a fixed purpose to know, and do the whole truth (Psalm 119:63; 57:7; 108:1) and cultivating a state of mind that will not be diverted to make provision for the flesh (Romans 13:14; Matthew 26:41).
Above all, you need, a regular habit of prayer, resignation to the whole will of God and His word that will make you discover the treasures hidden in the Bible. www.dclm.orgThis is a more detailed explanation of the Holy Bible and how you can benefit from it. I hope this will answer a lot of sincere enquiring minds. The difference between the Word of God and the Jewish Apocrypha is as clear as day and night and there are no basis for comparism.
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OLAADEGBU (m)
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The Bible contains the mind of God,
The state of man,
The way of salvation,
The doom of sinners and-
The happiness of believers.Its precepts are binding, Its history is true, and Its decisions are immutable. Read it to be wise,
Believe it to be saved, and
Practise it to be holy.It contains light to direct you, Food to support you, and Comfort to cheer you; It is the traveller’s map and The Christian’s charter. Here is paradise restored, Heaven opened and Gates of hell closed. Christ is the grand subject,
Our good its design, and
The glory of God its end.Read it
Slowly,
Frequently, and
Prayerfully.It is a mine of wealth, A paradise of glory, and A river of pleasure. It will reward the greatest labour and Condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents  . The Book:
The Book of books;
The Book of life;
The Book of God;
The Bible;
The Revelation of God to man.www.dclm.orgCan this be said of the "7 deleted books of the Bible"? Your guess is as good as mine. 
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imhotep
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n This is what our Lord and Saviour, the author and finisher of our faith has to say to those who exalt and uphold their church tradition above the Word of God.
Matthew 15:1-9
1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me[/b].
9[b] But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
@olaadegbu Jesus was talking to the Scribes, Pharisees and Saducees. Which traditions was Paul talking about when referring to the EARLY CHRISTIANS => 1 Cor 11:2 => I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you. 2 Thess 2:15 => Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. |
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imhotep
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More agreement between apocrypha and NT
1.
a) Sirach 30:1 => He who loves his son chastises him often, that he may be his joy when he grows up.
b) Hebrews 12:7 => Endure your trials as "discipline"; God treats you as sons. For what "son" is there whom his father does not discipline?
2.
a) Wisdom 16:26 => That your sons whom you loved might learn, O LORD, that it is not the various kinds of fruits that nourish man, but it is your word that preserves those who believe you!
b) Deut 8:3 => He therefore let you be afflicted with hunger, and then fed you with manna, a food unknown to you and your fathers, in order to show you that not by bread alone does man live, but by every word that comes forth from the mouth of the LORD
c) Matthew 4:4 => He said in reply, "It is written: 'One does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes forth from the mouth of God
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OLAADEGBU (m)
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n@olaadegbu
Jesus was talking to the Scribes, Pharisees and Saducees.
That is true but do you realise that the writer of Ecclesiaticus was a Sadducean and a scribe? and the tradition of the elders was highly esteemed than the commandment of God. Does that tell you whether you place your church traditions above the commandments of God? n@olaadegbu
Which traditions was Paul talking about when referring to the EARLY CHRISTIANS =>
1 Cor 11:2 => I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.
2 Thess 2:15 => Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.
The apostle Paul rebuked Jews because of this sin: Tit 1:14;3:9; Gal.1:13-14; Col.2:8; 1Tim.1:4; 6:20
Titus 1:14 (King James Version)
"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."
Galatians 1:13-14 (King James Version)
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Paul, before his conversion was given to keeping the tradition of the elders, that is the Jewish tradition, just as the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes, and thereby persecuting the Christians who kept the tradition of the Word of God. After his conversion, his emphasis shifted from keeping the Jewish tradition to keeping the Word of God written in His epistles. He emphasised this by saying that they should follow his examples handed down in doctrines of Christ and not of men. The only ordinance handed down is water baptism and the Lord's supper. One should note here that water baptism does not mean "to be born of water and spirit" Jn3:5 nor does eating the Lord's supper mean worshipping and honouring the wafer and wine. The major part was the holding fast and standing firm and keeping the faith of the whole body of truth of the gospel and the commitment to sound doctrine Tit.1:9; Jude 3; 2Tim.1:13; 4:3-4; 2:15-16; 1Tim.4:13,15-16; 2Cor.2:17; 4:1-2 |
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imhotep
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That is true but do you realise that the writer of Ecclesiaticus was a Sadducean and a scribe?
A large part of the OT was written/inspired by pharisees, saducees , scribes etc. Does this mean you should delete the whole OT. and the tradition of the elders was highly esteemed than the commandment of God. Does that tell you whether you place your church traditions above the commandments of God?
Paul, before his conversion was given to keeping the tradition of the elders, that is the Jewish tradition, just as the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes, and thereby persecuting the Christians who kept the tradition of the Word of God.
After his conversion, his emphasis shifted from keeping the Jewish tradition to keeping the Word of God written in His epistles. He emphasised this by saying that they should follow his examples handed down in doctrines of Christ and not of men. The only ordinance handed down is water baptism and the Lord's supper, one should note here that water baptism does not mean "to be born of water and spirit" Jn3:5 nor does eating the Lord's supper mean worshipping and honouring the wafer and wine. Including the holding fast and standing firm and keeping the faith of the whole body of truth of the gospel and the commitment to sound doctrine Tit.1:9; Jude 3; 2Tim.1:13; 4:3-4; 2:15-16; 1Tim.4:13,15-16; 2Cor.2:17; 4:1-2
You STILL have NOT pointed out the traditions he refered to here -> 1 Cor 11:2 => I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you. 2 Thess 2:15 => Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. |
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OLAADEGBU (m)
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Consider these Scriptures: * "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple." [Psalm 19:7] Obviously, God expects the "simple" to comprehend His Scripture. Notice there is no inference that people cannot understand Scripture by themselves. * "The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple." [Psalm 119:130] * "The proverbs of Solomon , To give subtlety to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion." [Proverbs 1:1, 4] * "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward , Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ." [Ephesians 3:1, 4] * In 1 Peter 2:5, and 9, all the saints are called a " royal priesthood". Then, when you understand that the New Covenant of Jesus Christ inaugurated a New Covenant which abolished the old Priesthood of the Old Testament [Hebrews 7:11-25 and 8:5-13, especially verse 13], thus cancelling the Old Covenant of the Old Testament, and abolishing all priests. From this point on, there were no more priests to " interpret" the Scripture; people were expected to hear it read and understand the plain language of it. Since all this is true, since God expects men and women of all ages to hear, or read, His Word and understand its plain language, then we should expect that God would take great care to protect His Word from contamination or misinterpretation. Indeed, God did take steps to prevent this kind of corruption. Consider the Scriptures below: "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought [take away] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God , " [Deuteronomy 4:2] "What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it." [Deuteronomy 12:32] "Every word of God is pure , Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." [Proverbs 30:5-6] Notice here that anyone who adds to or takes away from God's pure Word is called a "liar". "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." [Revelation 22:18-19] Therefore, we can see three distinct warnings against adding to or taking away the Words of God from His Holy Bible. The Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus' day were the leaders of a religious system which was called The Traditions of the Elders, a system which Jesus attacked with all His might, and condemned to the highest degree. In this Tradition of the Elders, the priests and scribes had created a parallel "Scripture" to God's Holy Word. Jesus condemned it because it changed, perverted the true meaning of God's Word, as given to Moses and the Prophets. Listen to Jesus condemn this Traditions of the Elders. " Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? , Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition." [Matthew 15:3-6] "Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. [Mark 7:5-7] Do you see that Jesus said that anyone who observes the Tradition of the Elders, they are worshipping Him in VAIN? Now, listen to Jesus continue with His condemnation of this Tradition: " For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men , and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition." Did you get this statement? Jesus is saying that Jews who keep the Tradition of the Elders are, in reality, rejecting the commandments of God? Now, listen to the Apostle Paul condemn the Traditions of the Jews: "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." [Colossians 2:8] Here, we see the Apostle Paul stating that the Tradition of Men spoil the hearer, and lead him or her to the world not to Jesus Christ. The Apostle Peter warns his followers along these same lines, as well. Listen: "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers" [1 Peter 1:18] Notice here that Peter calls the Tradition of the Fathers " vain conversation". The Roman Catholic Church has created a system of priesthood that is roughly parallel to the priesthood of the Old Testament, even though the writer to the Hebrews clearly states, above, that this Old Covenant was abolished when Jesus instituted His New Covenant. But, more importantly, the Roman Catholic Church has also created a parallel system of interpretations, which they revealingly call the Traditions of the Fathers, or the Church. They have then told their parishioners that this parallel Traditions is equal with the Scripture in importance and weight. Thus, they are equally guilty before Jesus Christ in " teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" [Mark 7:7]. Thus, they are practicing as vain a worship as Jesus told the Pharisees they were practicing in Mark 7:6, above. Thus, by creating this parallel system, the Roman Catholic Church is guilty of adding to the pure Word of God [Proverbs 30:5-6]. http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/rc101.htm |
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imhotep
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The Roman Catholic Church has created a system of priesthood that is roughly parallel to the priesthood of the Old Testament, even though the writer to the Hebrews clearly states, above, that this Old Covenant was abolished when Jesus instituted His New Covenant. But, more importantly, the Roman Catholic Church has also created a parallel system of interpretations, which they revealingly call the Traditions of the Fathers, or the Church. They have then told their parishioners that this parallel Traditions is equal with the Scripture in importance and weight. Thus, they are equally guilty before Jesus Christ in " teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" [Mark 7:7]. Thus, they are practicing as vain a worship as Jesus told the Pharisees they were practicing in Mark 7:6, above.
This is incorrect. Stop going to anti-catholic sites to learn about catholicism. Start with http://www.vatican.va--------------------- More agreement between apocrypha and the NT 1. a) Sirach 7: 35 => Be not slow to visit the sick: for that shall make thee to be beloved. b) Matthew 25.36 => I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. |
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