For Africa To Live, Europe Must Die?

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Drusilla (f)
For Africa To Live, Europe Must Die?
« on: June 20, 2006, 06:18 PM »

This is actually about America but I am wondering if it might not apply to Africa? Anyways, please read it and try not to worry about the details of what he is saying as it applies to Indians, but try to catch the gist of what he means.


"For America to Live, Europe Must Die"

The following speech was given by Russell Means in July 1980, before several thousand people who had assembled from all over the world for the Black Hills International Survival Gathering, in the Black Hills of South Dakota. It is Russell Means's most famous speech.

The only possible opening for a statement of this kind is that I detest writing. The process itself epitomizes the European concept of "legitimate" thinking; what is written has an importance that is denied the spoken. My culture, the Lakota culture, has an oral tradition, so I ordinarily reject writing. It is one of the white world's ways of destroying the cultures of non-European peoples, the imposing of an abstraction over the spoken relationship of a people.

So what you read here is not what I've written. It's what I've said and someone else has written down. I will allow this because it seems that the only way to communicate with the white world is through the dead, dry leaves of a book. I don't really care whether my words reach whites or not. They have already demonstrated through their history that they cannot hear, cannot see; they can only read (of course, there are exceptions, but the exceptions only prove the rule). I'm more concerned with American Indian people, students and others, who have begun to be absorbed into the white world through universities and other institutions. But even then it's a marginal sort of concern. It's very possible to grow into a red face with a white mind; and if that's a person's individual choice, so be it, but I have no use for them. This is part of the process of cultural genocide being waged by Europeans against American Indian peoples' today. My concern is with those American Indians who choose to resist this genocide, but who may be confused as to how to proceed.

(You notice I use the term American Indian rather than Native American or Native indigenous people or Amerindian when referring to my people. There has been some controversy about such terms, and frankly, at this point, I find it absurd. Primarily it seems that American Indian is being rejected as European in origin--which is true. But all the above terms are European in origin; the only non-European way is to speak of Lakota--or, more precisely, of Oglala, Brule, etc.--and of the Dineh, the Miccousukee, and all the rest of the several hundred correct tribal names.

(There is also some confusion about the word Indian, a mistaken belief that it refers somehow to the country, India. When Columbus washed up on the beach in the Caribbean, he was not looking for a country called India. Europeans were calling that country Hindustan in 1492. Look it up on the old maps. Columbus called the tribal people he met "Indio," from the Italian in dio, meaning "in God.")

It takes a strong effort on the part of each American Indian not to become Europeanized. The strength for this effort can only come from the traditional ways, the traditional values that our elders retain. It must come from the hoop, the four directions, the relations: it cannot come from the pages of a book or a thousand books. No European can ever teach a Lakota to be Lakota, a Hopi to be Hopi. A master's degree in "Indian Studies" or in "education" or in anything else cannot make a person into a human being or provide knowledge into traditional ways. It can only make you into a mental European, an outsider.

I should be clear about something here, because there seems to be some confusion about it. When I speak of Europeans or mental Europeans, I'm not allowing for false distinctions. I'm not saying that on the one hand there are the by-products of a few thousand years of genocidal, reactionary, European intellectual development which is bad; and on the other hand there is some new revolutionary intellectual development which is good. I'm referring here to the so-called theories of Marxism and anarchism and "leftism" in general. I don't believe these theories can be separated from the rest of the of the European intellectual tradition. It's really just the same old song.

The process began much earlier. Newton, for example, "revolutionized" physics and the so-called natural sciences by reducing the physical universe to a linear mathematical equation. Descartes did the same thing with culture. John Locke did it with politics, and Adam Smith did it with economics. Each one of these "thinkers" took a piece of the spirituality of human existence and converted it into code, an abstraction. They picked up where Christianity ended: they "secularized" Christian religion, as the "scholars" like to say--and in doing so they made Europe more able and ready to act as an expansionist culture. Each of these intellectual revolutions served to abstract the European mentality even further, to remove the wonderful complexity and spirituality from the universe and replace it with a logical sequence: one, two, three. Answer!

This is what has come to be termed "efficiency" in the European mind. Whatever is mechanical is perfect; whatever seems to work at the moment--that is, proves the mechanical model to be the right one--is considered correct, even when it is clearly untrue. This is why "truth" changes so fast in the European mind; the answers which result from such a process are only stopgaps, only temporary, and must be continuously discarded in favor of new stopgaps which support the mechanical models and keep them (the models) alive.

Hegel and Marx were heirs to the thinking of Newton, Descartes, Locke and Smith. Hegel finished the process of secularizing theology--and that is put in his own terms--he secularized the religious thinking through which Europe understood the universe. Then Marx put Hegel's philosophy in terms of "materialism," which is to say that Marx despiritualized Hegel's work altogether. Again, this is in Marx' own terms. And this is now seen as the future revolutionary potential of Europe. Europeans may see this as revolutionary, but American Indians see it simply as still more of that same old European conflict between being and gaining. The intellectual roots of a new Marxist form of European imperialism lie in Marx'--and his followers'--links to the tradition of Newton, Hegel and the others.

Being is a spiritual proposition. Gaining is a material act. Traditionally, American Indians have always attempted to be the best people they could. Part of that spiritual process was and is to give away wealth, to discard wealth in order not to gain. Material gain is an indicator of false status among traditional people, while it is "proof that the system works" to Europeans. Clearly, there are two completely opposing views at issue here, and Marxism is very far over to the other side from the American Indian view. But let's look at a major implication of this; it is not merely an intellectual debate.

The European materialist tradition of despiritualizing the universe is very similar to the mental process which goes into dehumanizing another person. And who seems most expert at dehumanizing other people? And why? Soldiers who have seen a lot of combat learn to do this to the enemy before going back into combat. Murderers do it before going out to commit murder. Nazi SS guards did it to concentration camp inmates. Cops do it. Corporation leaders do it to the workers they send into uranium mines and steel mills. Politicians do it to everyone in sight. And what the process has in common for each group doing the dehumanizing is that it makes it all right to kill and otherwise destroy other people. One of the Christian commandments says, "Thou shalt not kill," at least not humans, so the trick is to mentally convert the victims into nonhumans. Then you can proclaim violation of your own commandment as a virtue.

In terms of the despiritualization of the universe, the mental process works so that it becomes virtuous to destroy the planet. Terms like progress and development are used as cover words here, the way victory and freedom are used to justify butchery in the dehumanization process. For example, a real-estate speculator may refer to "developing" a parcel of ground by opening a gravel quarry; development here means total, permanent destruction, with the earth itself removed. But European logic has gained a few tons of gravel with which more land can be "developed" through the construction of road beds. Ultimately, the whole universe is open--in the European view--to this sort of insanity.

Most important here, perhaps, is the fact that Europeans feel no sense of loss in all this. After all, their philosophers have despiritualized reality, so there is no satisfaction (for them) to be gained in simply observing the wonder of a mountain or a lake or a people in being. No, satisfaction is measured in terms of gaining material. So the mountain becomes gravel, and the lake becomes coolant for a factory, and the people are rounded up for processing through the indoctrination mills Europeans like to call schools.

But each new piece of that "progress" ups the ante out in the real world. Take fuel for the industrial machine as an example. Little more than two centuries ago, nearly everyone used wood--a replenishable, natural item--as fuel for the very human needs of cooking and staying warm. Along came the Industrial Revolution and coal became the dominant fuel, as production became the social imperative for Europe. Pollution began to become a problem in the cities, and the earth was ripped open to provide coal whereas wood had always simply been gathered or harvested at no great expense to the environment. Later, oil became the major fuel, as the technology of production was perfected through a series of scientific "revolutions." Pollution increased dramatically, and nobody yet knows what the environmental costs of pumping all that oil out of the ground will really be in the long run. Now there's an "energy crisis," and uranium is becoming the dominant fuel.

Capitalists, at least, can be relied upon to develop uranium as fuel only at the rate which they can show a good profit. That's their ethic, and maybe they will buy some time. Marxists, on the other hand, can be relied upon to develop uranium fuel as rapidly as possible simply because it's the most "efficient" production fuel available. That's their ethic, and I fail to see where it's preferable. Like I said, Marxism is right smack in the middle of European tradition. It's the same old song.

There's a rule of thumb which can be applied here. You cannot judge the real nature of a European revolutionary doctrine on the basis of the changes it proposes to make within the European power structure and society. You can only judge it by the effects it will have on non-European peoples. This is because every revolution in European history has served to reinforce Europe's tendencies and abilities to export destruction to other peoples, other cultures and the environment itself. I defy anyone to point out an example where this is not true.

So now we, as American Indian people, are asked to believe that a "new" European revolutionary doctrine such as Marxism will reverse the negative effects of European history on us. European power relations are to be adjusted once again, and that's supposed to make things better for all of us. But what does this really mean?

Right now, today, we who live on the Pine Ridge Reservation are living in what white society has designated a "National Sacrifice Area." What this means is that we have a lot of uranium deposits here, and white culture (not us) needs this uranium as energy production material. The cheapest, most efficient way for industry to extract and deal with the processing of this uranium is to dump the waste by-products right here at the digging sites. Right here where we live. This waste is radioactive and will make the entire region uninhabitable forever. This is considered by the industry, and by the white society that created this industry, to be an "acceptable" price to pay for energy resource development. Along the way they also plan to drain the water table under this part of South Dakota as part of the industrial process, so the region becomes doubly uninhabitable. The same sort of thing is happening down in the land of the Navajo and Hopi, up in the land of the Northern Cheyenne and Crow, and elsewhere. Thirty percent of the coal in the West and half of the uranium deposits in the United States have been found to lie under reservation land, so there is no way this can be called a minor issue.

We are resisting being turned into a National Sacrifice Area. We are resisting being turned into a national sacrifice people. The costs of this industrial process are not acceptable to us. It is genocide to dig uranium here and drain the water table--no more, no less.

Now let's suppose that in our resistance to extermination we begin to seek allies (we have). Let's suppose further that we were to take revolutionary Marxism at its word: that it intends nothing less than the complete overthrow of the European capitalists order which has presented this threat to our very existence. This would seem to be a natural alliance for American Indian people to enter into. After all, as the Marxists say, it is the capitalists who set us up to be a national sacrifice. This is true as far as it goes.

But, as I've tried to point out, this "truth" is very deceptive. Revolutionary Marxism is committed to even further perpetuation and perfection of the very industrial process which is destroying us all. It offers only to "redistribute" the results--the money, maybe--of this industrialization to a wider section of the population. It offers to take wealth from the capitalists and pass it around; but in order to do so, Marxism must maintain the industrial system. Once again, the power relations within European society will have to be altered, but once again the effects upon American Indian peoples here and non-Europeans elsewhere will remain the same. This is much the same as when power was redistributed from the church to private business during the so-called bourgeois revolution. European society changed a bit, at least superficially, but its conduct toward non-Europeans continued as before. You can see what the American Revolution of 1776 did for American Indians. It's the same old song.

Revolutionary Marxism, like industrial society in other forms, seeks to "rationalize" all people in relation to industry--maximum industry, maximum production. It is a doctrine that despises the American Indian spiritual tradition, our cultures, our lifeways. Marx himself called us "precapitalists" and "primitive." Precapitalist simply means that, in his view, we would eventually discover capitalism and become capitalists; we have always been economically retarded in Marxist terms. The only manner in which American Indian people could participate in a Marxist revolution would be to join the industrial system, to become factory workers, or "proletarians," as Marx called them. The man was very clear about the fact that his revolution could only occur through the struggle of the proletariat, that the existence of a massive industrial system is a precondition of a successful Marxist society.

I think there's a problem with language here. Christians, capitalists, Marxists. All of them have been revolutionary in their own minds, but none of them really means revolution. What they really mean is continuation. They do what they do in order that European culture can continue to exist and develop according to its needs.

So, in order for us to really join forces with Marxism, we American Indians would have to accept the national sacrifice of our homeland; we would have to commit cultural suicide and become industrialized and Europeanized.

At this point, I've got to stop and ask myself whether I'm being too harsh. Marxism has something of a history. Does this history bear out my observations? I look to the process of industrialization in the Soviet Union since 1920 and I see that these Marxists have done what it took the English Industrial Revolution 300 years to do; and the Marxists did it in 60 years. I see that the territory of the USSR used to contain a number of tribal peoples and that they have been crushed to make way for the factories. The Soviets refer to this as "the National Question," the question of whether the tribal peoples had the right to exist as peoples; and they decided the tribal peoples were an acceptable sacrifice to the industrial needs. I look to China and I see the same thing. I look to Vietnam and I see Marxists imposing an industrial order and rooting out the indigenous tribal mountain people.

I hear the leading Soviet scientist saying that when uranium is exhausted, then alternatives will be found. I see the Vietnamese taking over a nuclear power plant abandoned by the US. military. Have they dismantled and destroyed it? No, they are using it. I see China exploding nuclear bombs, developing uranium reactors, and preparing a space program in order to colonize and exploit the planets the same as the Europeans colonized and exploited this hemisphere. It's the same old song, but maybe with a faster tempo this time.

The statement of the Soviet scientist is very interesting. Does he know what this alternative energy source will be? No, he simply has faith. Science will find a way. I hear revolutionary Marxists saying that the destruction of the environment, pollution, and radiation will all be controlled. And I see them act upon their words. Do they know how these things will be controlled? No, they simply have faith. Science will find a way. Industrialization is fine and necessary. How do they know this? Faith. Science will find a way. Faith of this sort has always been known in Europe as religion. Science has become the new European religion for both capitalists and Marxists; they are truly inseparable; they are part and parcel of the same culture. So, in both theory and practice, Marxism demands that non-European peoples give up their values, their traditions, their cultural existence altogether. We will all be industrialized science addicts in a Marxist society.

I do not believe that capitalism itself is really responsible for the situation in which American Indians have been declared a national sacrifice. No, it is the European tradition; European culture itself is responsible. Marxism is just the latest continuation of this tradition, not a solution to it. To ally with Marxism is to ally with the very same forces that declare us an acceptable cost.

There is another way. There is the traditional Lakota way and the ways of the American Indian peoples. It is the way that knows that humans do not have the right to degrade Mother Earth, that there are forces beyond anything the European mind has conceived, that humans must be in harmony with all relations or the relations will eventually eliminate the disharmony. A lopsided emphasis on humans by humans--the Europeans' arrogance of acting as though they were beyond the nature of all related things--can only result in a total disharmony and a readjustment which cuts arrogant humans down to size, gives them a taste of that reality beyond their grasp or control and restores the harmony. There is no need for a revolutionary theory to bring this about; it's beyond human control. The nature peoples of this planet know this and so they do not theorize about it. Theory is an abstract; our knowledge is real.

Distilled to its basic terms, European faith--including the new faith in science--equals a belief that man is God. Europe has always sought a Messiah, whether that be the man Jesus Christ or the man Karl Marx or the man Albert Einstein. American Indians know this to be totally absurd. Humans are the weakest of all creatures, so weak that other creatures are willing to give up their flesh that we may live. Humans are able to survive only through the exercise of rationality since they lack the abilities of other creatures to gain food through the use of fang and claw.

But rationality is a curse since it can cause humans to forget the natural order of things in ways other creatures do not. A wolf never forgets his or her place in the natural order. American Indians can. Europeans almost always do. We pray our thanks to the deer, our relations, for allowing us their flesh to eat; Europeans simply take the flesh for granted and consider the deer inferior. After all, Europeans consider themselves godlike in their rationalism and science. God is the Supreme Being; all else must be inferior.

All European tradition, Marxism included, has conspired to defy the natural order of all things. Mother Earth has been abused, the powers have been abused, and this cannot go on forever. No theory can alter that simple fact. Mother Earth will retaliate, the whole environment will retaliate, and the abusers will be eliminated. Things come full circle, back to where they started. That's revolution. And that's a prophecy of my people, of the Hopi people and of other correct peoples.

American Indians have been trying to explain this to Europeans for centuries. But, as I said earlier, Europeans have proven themselves unable to hear. The natural order will win out, and the offenders will die out, the way deer die when they offend the harmony by over-populating a given region. It's only a matter of time until what Europeans call "a major catastrophe of global proportions" will occur. It is the role of American Indian peoples, the role of all natural beings, to survive. A part of our survival is to resist. We resist not to overthrow a government or to take political power, but because it is natural to resist extermination, to survive. We don't want power over white institutions; we want white institutions to disappear. That's revolution.

American Indians are still in touch with these realities--the prophecies, the traditions of our ancestors. We learn from the elders, from nature, from the powers. And when the catastrophe is over, we American Indian peoples will still be here to inhabit the hemisphere. I don't care if it's only a handful living high in the Andes. American Indian people will survive; harmony will be reestablished. That's revolution.

At this point, perhaps I should be very clear about another matter, one which should already be clear as a result of what I've said. But confusion breeds easily these days, so I want to hammer home this point. When I use the term European, I'm not referring to a skin color or a particular genetic structure. What I'm referring to is a mind-set, a worldview that is a product of the development of European culture. People are not genetically encoded to hold this outlook; they are acculturated to hold it. The same is true for American Indians or for the members of any culture.

It is possible for an American Indian to share European values, a European worldview. We have a term for these people; we call them "apples"--red on the outside (genetics) and white on the inside (their values). Other groups have similar terms: Blacks have their "oreos"; Hispanos have "Coconuts" and so on. And, as I said before, there are exceptions to the white norm: people who are white on the outside, but not white inside. I'm not sure what term should be applied to them other than "human beings."

What I'm putting out here is not a racial proposition but a cultural proposition. Those who ultimately advocate and defend the realities of European culture and its industrialism are my enemies. Those who resist it, who struggle against it, are my allies, the allies of American Indian people. And I don't give a damn what their skin color happens to be. Caucasian is the white term for the white race: European is an outlook I oppose.

The Vietnamese Communists are not exactly what you might consider genetic Caucasians, but they are now functioning as mental Europeans. The same holds true for Chinese Communists, for Japanese capitalists or Bantu Catholics or Peter "MacDollar" down at the Navajo Reservation or Dickie Wilson up here at Pine Ridge. There is no racism involved in this, just an acknowledgment of the mind and spirit that make up culture.

In Marxist terms I suppose I'm a "cultural nationalist." I work first with my people, the traditional Lakota people, because we hold a common worldview and share an immediate struggle. Beyond this, I work with other traditional American Indian peoples, again because of a certain commonality in worldview and form of struggle. Beyond that, I work with anyone who has experienced the colonial oppression of Europe and who resists its cultural and industrial totality. Obviously, this includes genetic Caucasians who struggle to resist the dominant norms of European culture. The Irish and the Basques come immediately to mind, but there are many others.

I work primarily with my own people, with my own community. Other people who hold non-European perspectives should do the same. I believe in the slogan, "Trust your brother's vision," although I'D like to add sisters into the bargain. I trust the community and the culturally based vision of all the races that naturally resist industrialization and human extinction. Clearly, individual whites can share in this, given only that they have reached the awareness that continuation of the industrial imperatives of Europe is not a vision, but species suicide. White is one of the sacred colors of the Lakota people--red, yellow, white and black. The four directions. The four seasons. The four periods of life and aging. The four races of humanity. Mix red, yellow, white and black together and you get brown, the color of the fifth race. This is a natural ordering of things. It therefore seems natural to me to work with all races, each with its own special meaning, identity and message.

But there is a peculiar behavior among most Caucasians. As soon as I become critical of Europe and its impact on other cultures, they become defensive. They begin to defend themselves. But I'm not attacking them personally; I'm attacking Europe. In personalizing my observations on Europe they are personalizing European culture, identifying themselves with it. By defending themselves in this context, they are ultimately defending the death culture. This is a confusion which must be overcome, and it must be overcome in a hurry. None of us has energy to waste in such false struggles.

Caucasians have a more positive vision to offer humanity than European culture. I believe this. But in order to attain this vision it is necessary for Caucasians to step outside European culture--alongside the rest of humanity--to see Europe for what it is and what it does.

To cling to capitalism and Marxism and all other "isms" is simply to remain within European culture. There is no avoiding this basic fact. As a fact, this constitutes a choice. Understand that the choice is based on culture, not race. Understand that to choose European culture and industrialism is to choose to be my enemy. And understand that the choice is yours, not mine.

This leads me back to address those American Indians who are drifting through the universities, the city slums, and other European institutions. If you are there to resist the oppressor in accordance with your traditional ways, so be it. I don't know how you manage to combine the two, but perhaps you will succeed. But retain your sense of reality. Beware of coming to believe the white world now offers solutions to the problems it confronts us with. Beware, too, of allowing the words of native people to be twisted to the advantages of our enemies. Europe invented the practice of turning words around on themselves. You need only look to the treaties between American Indian peoples and various European governments to know that this is true. Draw your strength from who you are.

A culture which regularly confuses revolt with resistance, has nothing helpful to teach you and nothing to offer you as a way of life. Europeans have long since lost all touch with reality, if ever they were in touch with who you are as American Indians.
Drusilla (f)
Re: For Africa To Live, Europe Must Die?
« #1 on: June 20, 2006, 11:59 PM »

t4cash,

This is my response to the idea that African Americans shall always be talked down until Africa is developed.

I can talk more specifically about what is on the ground in Africa and world thinking about Africa.

However first, I am trying to get this philosophical point across.

I do not think highly enough of whites to want to imitate them.

I do not think highly of their science, their medicine, their religions, their educational systems.

Hmmm,

I want you to understand that in America we talk in terms of white and black. So forgive me for this, because I am not intelligent enough to express it outside of the Ebonical way that I would say it to a Black person.

I think the idea that one should try to obtain Equality with whites, is one of the sickest, mentacidal ideas of our time.

Why would I want to be equal with a bunch of murderers, imperialists, colonialists, enslavers, rapists, etc? (And I know they will claim that was their parents and not them.)

What I am saying in plain english is this: European Culture is a culture of death not life.

Instead of trying to imitate it, we should be ensuring it's death.

Please ask me about anything I have said here. I am sure that I am not expressing it correctly or coherently enough for a person to understand me with these few sentences.

I am used to it taking a while for people to 'get me' but once they do, they love me(or hate me). 
Drusilla (f)
Re: For Africa To Live, Europe Must Die?
« #2 on: June 21, 2006, 12:45 AM »

I guess I am saying that I would like to back up and consider the idea that development is all Africa needs and everything will be right in this world.

t4cash (m)
Re: For Africa To Live, Europe Must Die?
« #3 on: June 21, 2006, 10:30 AM »

Dear Drusilla,

I must say that the first post was waaaaaaay to long for me to read it all. Your subsequent posts however gave me the gist / point. I am happy you mentioned Ebonics. The great Nigerian columnist, Reuben Abati, wrote a great article once about this Ebonics but I can't seem to find it on the net.

To me your point and your mention of ebonics tally. The thinking of African Americans, I regret to say, really diverge from that of we, Africans.

What you are saying basically is that Africans should not define "development" in western terms. This is fair enough. But please accept that THAT is you and a minority's opinion. I am a total democrat and as such while I expect to have my say, I trust that half of the people will be right half of the time. If you, for example, feel that the white people are actually underdeveloped and are more animal than human, you are definitely in a minority. And the majority of Africans do not wish to stay in huts, or drink from a stream. They deserve to get what they want.

The reason that they do not currently get what they are desirer, does not lie in their pursuit of what is an alien culture. It lies in their politics.  But I shall assume this is a discussion about race not politics.

If you have lived under African dictatorships, your seeking to redefine development would sound like music to an Abacha or a Mugabe. They would gladly hijack it and deploy it to rationalise their actions. I urge you to please abandon this track when it comes to Africa.

What I am saying is essentially that development may have several definitions and "quality of life" may mean several things. But there are irreducible minimums accepted by all humans. I

Of course one must preserve the (best) bits of one's culture. Indeed, it could even prove commercially valuable in future to still have the vestiges of primordial life a la ecotourism.

However, other races like the Asians did not redefine "development". The Indians and Asians are developing. Africa and others are not. Period. Let's avoid these attempts to split hairs about what development is. The majority of Africans need the MDG's. and they need them right now.
Drusilla (f)
Re: For Africa To Live, Europe Must Die?
« #4 on: June 21, 2006, 01:00 PM »

t4cash,

African American and Africans come from completely different cultures, so that is to be expected that our thinking is going to be different.

Quote
What you are saying basically is that Africans should not define "development" in western terms. This is fair enough. But please accept that THAT is you and a minority's opinion. I am a total democrat and as such while I expect to have my say, I trust that half of the people will be right half of the time. If you, for example, feel that the white people are actually underdeveloped and are more animal than human, you are definitely in a minority. And the majority of Africans do not wish to stay in huts, or drink from a stream. They deserve to get what they want.

The reason that they do not currently get what they are desirer, does not lie in their pursuit of what is an alien culture. It lies in their politics.  But I shall assume this is a discussion about race not politics.

I accept that already. The hopeful African American thinks all Africa needs is a Walmart. The European American has of course discovered that they can stripmine what they need from Africa without there even be a nation in place (Congo, Somalia, etc) or with total disregard for the African nation itself (burning oil leftovers in Nigeria).

I am also aware of the ludicrousness of even attempting to to bring those with cell phones  to a level of development that would allow everyone to eat, have healthcare, etc.

The Chinese have proven that sending the western educated individuals to the farms does work out in the long run. Successful options will always be on the table. 

Quote
What I am saying is essentially that development may have several definitions and "quality of life" may mean several things. But there are irreducible minimums accepted by all humans. I

If one believed, that Africans did not even deserve the irreducible minimums, then all one has to do is walk away from Africa. Since they do not recieve those irreducible minimums now. Let's not be illogical. Anybody even bothering to be in the discussion of Africa, is looking for ways to at least get the irreducible minimums to Africa.

Quote
Of course one must preserve the (best) bits of one's culture. Indeed, it could even prove commercially valuable in future to still have the vestiges of primordial life a la ecotourism.

I just said the very same thing on another thread, when I was talking with another African American from getting involved in these petty ethnic things. We should have nothing to do with any of that mess. The one thing that African Americans may be able to contribute to Africa is the fact that we are  the most united Black people in the world. We recognize none of these ethnic labels as being valid or having value. In our eyes, your all just Black people.

Ethnicity is the natural enemy of the African American. Even though they may be cute and end up with their own 1 day holiday and make money for tourism.

Quote
However, other races like the Asians did not redefine "development". The Indians and Asians are developing. Africa and others are not. Period. Let's avoid these attempts to split hairs about what development is. The majority of Africans need the MDG's. and they need them right now.

Yes, they did. They redefined development to mean what was good for them, as one united people.

As I just said in another post. Africans are developing, unfortunately it is Europe that Africa is developing.
Rhodalyn (f)
Re: For Africa To Live, Europe Must Die?
« #5 on: June 21, 2006, 01:02 PM »

Tha doesnt Sound right! Re: For Africa To Live, Europe Must Die?
Drusilla (f)
Re: For Africa To Live, Europe Must Die?
« #6 on: June 21, 2006, 01:03 PM »

It is actually titled: "For America to live, Europe must die".

I changed it for the title of the thread.  Wink
t4cash (m)
Re: For Africa To Live, Europe Must Die?
« #7 on: June 22, 2006, 12:15 PM »

Dear Drusilla,

I must confess that your thesis is not clear.

Please distill this profound point you want to impress on me into a sentence or two, let me see if then I can get you.
Drusilla (f)
Re: For Africa To Live, Europe Must Die?
« #8 on: June 22, 2006, 01:06 PM »

t4cash,

Actually we were discussing your thesis that the African American won't be okay until Africa is developed.

I was trying to make the point that it is more than just seeing a mini Europe in Africa that we need.

Just as whites would not allow you to gut out and destroy their homeland, in an effort to get material goods.

We need to be careful about thinking where we are going, rather than rushing in for development, which does not work in Africa because it was never designed to be anything good for Africa.

That is about as simply as I can put it.

I hope that helps.

t4cash (m)
Re: For Africa To Live, Europe Must Die?
« #9 on: June 22, 2006, 04:18 PM »

Quote from: Drusilla on June 22, 2006, 01:06 PM

We need to be careful about thinking where we are going, rather than rushing in for development, which does not work in Africa because it was never designed to be anything good for Africa.


I wouldnt say I get you totally still but I think this post is clearer.

I hope You too grabbed the point I was trying to make about the AA's realising that they will continue to be looked down upon until Africa developes. The other races still believe that since Africa is underdeveloped (I think we can agree on this), then the blacks are an inferior race. Also, the whites in America will continue to say (or think), "if you don't like it here why not go back to Africa. Oh ho, "

Whatever you say about development as seen by the white man, he will respect him only when you prove that you CAN do what he does but CHOOSE not to. In other words, today I am a consultant. I get respect because I was a successful entrepreneur. SO its by CHOICE that I choose to consult.

Saying oh, we prefer not to develope like you when you have not proven that you can will always be pooh-poohed at. The Japanese (and  the Chinese) are kicking the West's ass in so many industries today that the West does not even say much about the CHinese dictatorial political systems any more. The way to earn respect is to PROVE YOU CAN.

As for the idea of another part of the world having to die for another to develop, that may have been true in the Industial and Agricultural Age. Today we live in the Information Age. Intellect is the resource. Hollywood and Software does not need you to destroy and exploit some other continent.

Lets not be wasting time "being careful thinking where we are going", lets just DO IT. And African Americans can accelerate this if they saw whats in it for them and their respect in the white man's eyes.

As for doing it in an "African" way, I assure you that if Africans had the poltics right many of their (our) intellectuals know what to preserve from our traditions. But sadly, some AA's even try to maintain the mythic image of Wild Africa. such that  they arrive in Lagos and see skyscrapers , i have seen some actually disappointed.

(this was typed in a graat hurry, hope you can get my point and 4giv any typos)



 
Drusilla (f)
Re: For Africa To Live, Europe Must Die?
« #10 on: June 22, 2006, 04:38 PM »

t4cash,

You can get a million skyscrappers and put them all over Africa.

As long as we got to see pictures of them babies with flies all over their face, the women and children fighting over wheat, the women boiling leaves to try and feed their children, the children and women found in our own countries having been sold into slavery ---development or skyscrapers are meaningless.

It's about the people being able to obtain the basics.

Clean water, food, clothing, shelter, warfree countries.

This is the cause of hurt to African Americans.

I do not need a shiny new building to prove anything to whitefolks.

I need children drinking clean water.
anton (m)
Re: For Africa To Live, Europe Must Die?
« #11 on: June 22, 2006, 06:29 PM »

Quote from: Drusilla on June 22, 2006, 04:38 PM


I do not need a shiny new building to prove anything to whitefolks.

I need children drinking clean water.

But the bottomline is that you have to be able to defend what is developed.  That is the lesson that should be our guiding princible, because it is a lesson that we have already learned the hard way.  We have already built Black Wallstreets, local elective bodies, stable communities, and for close to 50 years cranked out top students with inferior teaching materials.  We have already seen the mountain top.  Our flaw?

We were not committed to defending everything we had built.  So, it was all taken.

You are going to have to be developed along pretty standard lines along with the rest of the world, at least in the form energy grids, transparent financial markets (indepentdent from but integrated into world markets), state of the art industrial infrastructure, and adequate gross national products to fund social programs, defence, and R&D etc.  There are plenty of new (old actually) twists that we can throw that reflect who we are and our cultural legacy, but many of those basic systems you really can't substitute.
t4cash (m)
Re: For Africa To Live, Europe Must Die?
« #12 on: June 23, 2006, 05:17 PM »

Dear Drusilla,

your post buttresses my point about African Americans and why we Africans and them don't really get along. Their Africa is not our Africa.

They have bought into the Western propaganda belief that Africans are little skinny folks with flies all over them. I have lived here all my life and I havent come across Africans who are starving. Nor have I ever seen lions or elephants either. I bet you that most people on this forum live in an Africa that is different from the one you believe. Most of us who live here are amazed (and amused) when we travel and AA's (we can understand if the whitesdo so) ask "so is it true you guys live on trees?"  Huh

Most Nigerians actually believe that they are superior to whites, contrary to the way most AA's and South Africans think. this is obviously silly but it contributes to the 419 syndrome.

We wonder why CNN only shows up when there is a famine or trouble but is not excited when the telecom network in Nigeria has just grown from 200,000 to 20 million in 3 years. But the intrepid ones have realised that it is to tell the AA's "see, you have nothing where you come from"

Not to say starvation does not exist, but hunger exists everywhere. There are hungry Asians too but Westeren media do not portray Asia as a starving place. Why is it only famines in Africa that get on the front page? Why is it the news? They can play their games but why do you guys fall for it? You have Africans in America, ask them, they will tell you the true Africa.

Having the skyscapers and saving the hungry children go hand in hand. Show me anywhere that development is going on without the skyscrapers. Is it China? The business men must be productive for you to have the wealth to uplift everyone. Learn to love those skyscrapers.

personally, I now realise that we are on the same page but from what I can see, you are just over-fixated on Africans not copycatting the west and thereby falling into the mistakes you have probably observed. however, economic advancement is a necessarily chaotic process driven by entrepreneurs seeking economic opportunities. All that is needed is that representative government (and activists) guides the process.

But too much "guiding" is harmful. ASK THE SOVIETS!
Drusilla (f)
Re: For Africa To Live, Europe Must Die?
« #13 on: June 23, 2006, 08:47 PM »

t4cash,

It's no accident that AA see Africa this way. We see pictures of starving Africans, DAILY, we have to watch those Christian Childrens Funds commericals. (My child is in Zambia) Or see those Save the children commericals. They run in the day time but in the evening when it is cheaper, they are on every station, all night.

You may not be aware but it is well known that African Americans are the biggest givers to Charity in America.

http://philanthropy.com/free/articles/v15/i14/14000601.htm

So it is no accident that we remember those flies on those babies faces more than others.

I thought I might point that out.

We are in agreement.
Drusilla (f)
Re: For Africa To Live, Europe Must Die?
« #14 on: June 23, 2006, 08:57 PM »

Anton,

I agree. Here's the problem. It is like known that one can be driving through the backwoods of Africa and come across an old run down factory or holiday inn hotel or something.

Development has been sporadic and what is developed is not maintainable by the local populations.

With the little king syndrome, he might take power have 1 or 2 items built in his area and then is out of power and those one or two buildings never come to anything.

You have to start with the basic.

Water systems, sewer systesm, Fiberoptics network laid down, Road network laid down, health care systems, educational systems.

Where as development has been clustered in big city's in the west which forced us to begin immeadiately dealing with communicable diseases, over crowding, pollution and policing between people, etc.

In Africa we have a chance to spread things out more evenly, avoid some of the mistakes that city's in America are dealing with now, if we choose.

We might take a clue from China and from Ghettos. Where Bikes and Scooters are more popular. We might take a clue from Russia where the Ukraine grew most of their food. (Dedicated areas to agriculture -- Sudan or Zimbabwe for instance) So that others can move along and work on other things.

That is all I am saying. Let's be careful about thinking shiny skyscrapers are the be all to end all.

And number 1 priority for me, is allowing the African design to come forth.

Houses completely modern in the shape of huts though or at least the roofs built this way, would be particularily sweet for me, at least.

I actually love the African look, let's bring it into the modern world.
anton (m)
Re: For Africa To Live, Europe Must Die?
« #15 on: June 23, 2006, 09:42 PM »

Dru, do you have any plans to invest in Africa?  Abandoned factories sound like a wonderful opportunity to me!

I still haven't read that long huge post yet only bits and pices of it.  The speaker is Lakota.  I can see what you are saying in that not following the western trend of blatent exploitation of weaker groups in order to develop one self.  No, i don't see us developing along those lines.

Urope doesn't neccesarily have to die (and it will be a challenge to get the rest of the planet to see that, i believe), they only have to stop consuming so much of the planets resources.

I forget the statistic, but it is like they are somewhere around 11% of the total population, but consume, close 30% of the worlds resources, i think.  I will go and look that up but it sounds right.

I was close check this out:
http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/002924.html  Later i will see if i cn find the one for america and hopefully they will break it down by race  Grin
Drusilla (f)
Re: For Africa To Live, Europe Must Die?
« #16 on: November 09, 2006, 02:20 PM »

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