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agaba123 (m)
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Medical Drs now seek employment in banks,Telecom companies,oil companies and factories.  .The basic issue here is not whether Drs are creme de la creme of the society or not.The point here is that the benefits of commensurate remunerations especially for medical Drs cannot be overflogged. Quackery,infamous conduct,criminal practice,negligence etc will surely thrive if the very corrupt policy makers(who have increased their pay by 100%),fails to pay attention to the health sector."To whom much is given,much is expected".The Dr whose family has invested a lot on has no alibi in the fact that his job is humanitarian.Some were even sponsored by community effort.  haha just like engineers and other professionals seek work in banking and telecom sectors.  You don't even expect make the same moneywith those in the telecom what ever u are paid. Even here in the UK, a financial consultant earns so many times more money than a medical doctor. I heard of a nigerian that works for NATWEST, Just for organising seminars recks £200k per seminar. Those in IT and consultancy firm earn very much. Another guy works for a consultancy firm and earns above 300k basic per month in nigeria. Lives in Lagos works in abuja, receives 20k for out of station allowance every weekend. So, the govt cannot match what is happening in private sector. Even here, I know those from the noble professions who are now working in banks. It is not only in nigeria. It is a matter of what floats your boat |
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sly-k (m)
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long number of academic study does not translate to cash.
if you want money as a medical doctor, sit down and plan how it will work out not you looking for salary.
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agaba123 (m)
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As long as you remain an employeee
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Pennywise
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long number of academic study does not translate to cash.
if you want money as a medical doctor, sit down and plan how it will work out not you looking for salary.
This is true for medicine as it is for engineering, law, pharmacy etc. The injustice the Nigerian doctor faces goes beyond the inadequate absolute take home pay. The state has failed to recognize the peculiarity of the job with respect to its demand not just on expertise but also on the time of the doctor. When other care providers close at the end of a day or night shift, the doctor doesnt have that luxury. He closes at 4pm but he is mandated to do a second job called 'call' that lasts longer and can be more tedious.For this he is given a little stipend which makes his take home just a little above that of the other more important members of the healthcare delivery team- I mean nurses, pharmacists, optometrists,etc. For this usually they will go on strike and get across the board wage increase by a government without a health care plan, policy or vision of any kind.It is for this reason these group of proffessionals are much better paid than their peers in countries with similar GDP (at the expense of doctors). It is for the same reason that Nigerian nurses in Government hospitals earn more than PHD holders in Universities and before a bachelor degree holding teacher can hope to earn a fresh nursing graduate salary he needs to work for 10yrs. In Nigeria, every healthcare provider wants to be a medical doctor but not all want to go to medical school.The unions and lobbyists of some of these fields are so brazen.Some have forced the arm of the NUC backward to approve needless 6yr programmes for optometry and pharmacy and then arrogate to themselves the title Dr.Those who spent 4yrs reading these courses a few years ago and left with bachelor's degree who were 'dr' (with lips covered by closed hands) are now being publicly addressed as such. Optometrists now get paid call duty. You wonder, for emergency lens? In the final analysis, every failure can be traced to one thing that we have distinguished ourselves in-that is corruption. One aspect of this argument I however don't subscribe to is making doctors the chief managers of hospitals. This practice cannot be justified by any sound logic and for Christ sake it hasnt worked in the past.It should be left to managers the way it is done in the States and elsewhere. |
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Kongi (m)
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Agaba my guy,
Please don't take this the wrong way but you really sound like someone I would enjoy talking with.
again note my choice of words, talking with, not to.
please believe me when I say I am not being sarcastic
My A level scores or Jamb scores are irrelevant but I can assure you that everywhere I have been, I am usually in the top 5%!
I am also a member of MENSA so make we leave that one for one side.
Pre-science? i don't even know what that is.
I have a friend who is in GP training in Nigeria and she will probably take offence at your statement that even though not much training is given to the GP in naija. (Again you have a misunderstanding of medicine and medical practice. There is actually a college of GPs with a residency programme in Nigeria!)
You don't need a high IQ to study medicine so I agree with you there. I have a friend who left medicine after 2nd MB as well. And yes, he passed the exam!
With regards to litigation in medical practice in Nigeria, it is my most ardent prayer that litigation levels rise in our country. This is the only way to rid the profession of quacks. A doctor is not God and should be accountable to his patients. I agree that the level of enlightenment of the general populace should rise but that na matter for another day.
I recall quite clearly that the fight for call duty allowance wasn't just about doctors' allowances. A major issue was funding of the health sector which the media didn't report. I attended a few of those ARD meetings in those days and had a first hand view of the demands of the ARD. You may not believe this but a major problem then was that 'medical elders' had their own agenda. That is why the NMA has not done anything. The CMDs and Health ministers always are out t line their own pockets because of the Nigeria expectation that anyone in a position of authority or influence must come out a wealthy man.
A lot of our problems are inter-related and a microcosm of the greater society.
Tafa Balogun said something when people were complaining about the corrupt nature of the police. He said 'you don't find angels in hell'. Again, i am digressing and I apologise profusely.
Your exchanges with karl ken represent what I hope Nigeria will turn to. You guys hit the nail on the head and hopefully, this will trickle upwards or downwards as the case may be.
Pennywise, nuff respect. However, who says a doctor can't be a manager? It's all about having the aptitude for it. We have had brilliant CMDs just as we have had awful ones.
I don't expect personally to get rich from my medical practice. However, I expect medicine to afford me the ability to feed, accommodate and transport my family in the way they deserve without any need to resort to underhand practices or combine 2 medical jobs. I invest carefully in the financial markets and THAT is how I fund my excesses.
Nuff said, for now
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Pennywise
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@Kongi
Your observations are noted my friend but if everyone had the business acumen of Adenuga or Ekene dili chukwu (late Chief Ilodibe), there wont be need for business schools.
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agaba123 (m)
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Kongi
My A level score stuff was not directed at you. sorry I made I did not make myself clear. i was actually refering to the guy who was talking about high IQ.
I think your approach is different and you have just proved me right that those who are good do not come across as arrongant as the high IQ boy.
I have not read your last reply though.
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agaba123 (m)
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Agaba my guy,
Please don't take this the wrong way but you really sound like someone I would enjoy talking with.
again note my choice of words, talking with, not to.
Please believe me when I say I am not being sarcastic
My A level scores or Jamb scores are irrelevant but I can assure you that everywhere I have been, I am usually in the top 5%!
I am also a member of MENSA so make we leave that one for one side.
Pre-science? i don't even know what that is.
I have a friend who is in GP training in Nigeria and she will probably take offence at your statement that even though not much training is given to the GP in naija. (Again you have a misunderstanding of medicine and medical practice. There is actually a college of GPs with a residency programme in Nigeria!)
You don't need a high IQ to study medicine so I agree with you there. I have a friend who left medicine after 2nd MB as well. And yes, he passed the exam!
With regards to litigation in medical practice in Nigeria, it is my most ardent prayer that litigation levels rise in our country. This is the only way to rid the profession of quacks. A doctor is not God and should be accountable to his patients. I agree that the level of enlightenment of the general populace should rise but that na matter for another day.
I recall quite clearly that the fight for call duty allowance wasn't just about doctors' allowances. A major issue was funding of the health sector which the media didn't report. I attended a few of those ARD meetings in those days and had a first hand view of the demands of the ARD. You may not believe this but a major problem then was that 'medical elders' had their own agenda. That is why the NMA has not done anything. The CMDs and Health ministers always are out t line their own pockets because of the Nigeria expectation that anyone in a position of authority or influence must come out a wealthy man.
A lot of our problems are inter-related and a microcosm of the greater society.
Tafa Balogun said something when people were complaining about the corrupt nature of the police. He said 'you don't find angels in hell'. Again, i am digressing and I apologise profusely.
Your exchanges with karl ken represent what I hope Nigeria will turn to. You guys hit the nail on the head and hopefully, this will trickle upwards or downwards as the case may be.
Pennywise, nuff respect. However, who says a doctor can't be a manager? It's all about having the aptitude for it. We have had brilliant CMDs just as we have had awful ones.
I don't expect personally to get rich from my medical practice. However, I expect medicine to afford me the ability to feed, accommodate and transport my family in the way they deserve without any need to resort to underhand practices or combine 2 medical jobs. I invest carefully in the financial markets and THAT is how I fund my excesses.
Nuff said, for now
OK accepted I do not have an understanding of the medical practice based on the fact that I do not know they have a college of GPs in naija. (I know quite well medical practice is a 'cult' esp in naija)I do not know how long that has been. I know things are changing. thank God. Once more, the pre-science and A-level thing is not about you OK . . .you be the man. Prolly you are one of those guys in NN who talk about stock and investment. You need to get there. much info. Now I am not going to say more because you actually buttressed some of the facts I marshalled out. So we are saying the same thingy. Thanks for wanting to talk with me but unfortunately I am one of those bad 'talkers' |
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ziga
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I graduated in 2005, and i didnt state that Doctors are responsible for providing infrastructre for hospitals.
Doctors don't have to be dependent on salaries. The problem is doctors who put money before the welfare of their patients always end up being unethical. That is not the way its meant to be and that is not situation in other countries.
If the true value of health care as a "business" was applied, and the average man was made to pay for it, how many will be able to afford it. The health of the people is the responsibility of the government, and the true practise of medicine does not leave room for the doctor to be money oriented. So, who takes care of the doctor's welfare.
Think about it, if you get advise from a lawyer, you have to pay for it. But how many of you have ever paid a medical doctor for some health advice he gave in passing.
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Kongi (m)
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Agaba my guy, you are indeed right when you say we are saying the same thing.
Medical practice in Nigeria is indeed a cult. Thankfully, things are changing. Yes I am a member of the 'cult' by virtue of my training and connexions but one day, the cult will wake up and smell the coffee.
Pennywise, business schools are not for the Adenugas or the Ekene dili Chukwus, they are for the me and yous of this world who need to be schooled in the art of making money.
Adenuga, Aliko and co don't need to go to business school to learn how to make money.
Ziga bros, with the advent of NHIS in Nigeria as well as private medical insurance, healthcare is a business! i don't want to advertise on this site but there are very competitve private health insurance schemes which are run as a business. Things will change in Nigeria hopefully very soon. Some people have taken the 1st step. Funnily enough, they are not doctors but have the foresight to see what the country will need from healthcare services in the very near future.
Currently, it is targetted towards the higher end of the market although the prices are reasonable enough to appeal to the middle class. I must confess i was involved in the execution of this dream while still in Nigeria and things are moving very well.
Abuja, Lagos and PH naturally are the hub of the business but I hope the intention of a national spread is realised very soon.
They pay their doctors reasonably well. At least, while I was there, the salaries were comparable to federal govt rates. Still not the best but we need to atart somewhere.
God bless Nigeria
Agaba, my apologies once again if I have been too forceful or even unpleasant in my arguments
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Aiyetunje
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Kongi
nuff said!
I see that we are all saying the same things but from (very) different perspectives/points of view . . .
I believe very strongly in the business side of medicine, it's quite interesting!
I guess business models can be drawn up providing quality healthcare at (relatively) cheap competitive prices, afterall what price value can we place on a human life?
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agaba123 (m)
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Agaba, my apologies once again if I have been too forceful or even unpleasant in my arguments
Kongi, Not at all. You were only being assertive in trying to push your point just like I was . That does not translate to aggression. Nothing do you man. We pray naija will improve. |
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karl ken (m)
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@ Agaba n Konji;nuff respect! .My medical training in Nig. wasn't easy for the family and I knew the effort I put in to pass the exams.Much is now expected of me.I must make them proud and in this practice too.I will have to invest in non-medical ventures but the initial capital will come surely from this 'rubbish' practice.  |
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Pennywise
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Pennywise, business schools are not for the Adenugas or the Ekene dili Chukwus, they are for the me and yous of this world who need to be schooled in the art of making money.
Adenuga, Aliko and co don't need to go to business school to learn how to make money.
Ziga bros, with the advent of NHIS in Nigeria as well as private medical insurance, healthcare is a business! i don't want to advertise on this site but there are very competitive private health insurance schemes which are run as a business. Things will change in Nigeria hopefully very soon. Some people have taken the 1st step. Funnily enough, they are not doctors but have the foresight to see what the country will need from healthcare services in the very near future.
@Kongi Your comment will suggest that rather than employ business/hospital mgt trained people we should rely on a supernatural means of identifying the likes of Adenuga and Aliko that at the minimum will not run our hospitals aground before employing.  The truth is- that you can remove a goitre with your eye closed does not mean you can manage people and resources with the same dexterity because you are not so trained. Many of these super CMDs venture into private practice but fail woefully and fold up.The headship of these hospitals is partly responsible for the fratricidal wars going on be it doctor vs doctor or doctor vs others in these hospitals.So unnecessary. For NHIS, this is the biggest on going fraud in the health sector at the moment.It is likely going to continue for sometime because the Nigerian masses are at the recieving end and afterall what is 5% of the basic of the average worker's salary? And in what way has it affected the average M.O remuneration? Zilch! In the meantime let the party continue for the 20 or so odd HMOs registered by it. With respect to the private medical Insurance (HMOs) being used by some elite companies though better than the NHIS, the income by most of the providers actually depreciated not increased.The whole idea was to enhance income so that they can pay well and improve on the quality of services. Most of the money goes to the middlemen. Before they came in, no substandard practice could hope to get a decent retainership anyway. Now the HMOs play providers one against another and then pay starvation capitation.Who suffers?To every rule there is exception. The employer paying the money should feel the pulse of his employee. In fact to cut a long story short, NHIS not be silver lining for doctor pay.Na cesspool. Big can of worms. |
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agaba123 (m)
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@ Agaba n Konji;nuff respect! .My medical training in Nig. wasn't easy for the family and I knew the effort I put in to pass the exams.Much is now expected of me.I must make them proud and in this practice too.I will have to invest in non-medical ventures but the initial capital will come surely from this 'rubbish' practice. Non-medical ventures =good Rubbish venture . . .naaaaaaaaaaaaah. I feel your pulse sha |
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Kongi (m)
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@Pennywise.
Not at all o. Supernatural means of identification ke?
What I mean is that the fact that you are doctor doesn't preclude your being a good manager of men and resources.
Some succeed in business without any schooling while some need to be taught either formally or informally.
Richard Branson very easily springs to mind.
Again, I digress and once again, I apologise.
As per NHIS, I had a discussion with a very senior NHIS chap a few years ago and I let my feelings known to him. The way the NHIS was structured in 2005, hospitals were being made to bear the cost of providing healthcare to the populace rather than the government. God knows why we don't pay pur taxes to these hospitals then.
I am not sure if things have changed as I haven't kept up with things in that sector but I keep hoping for the best
@Agaba, thanks for understanding
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obi647
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Really is good to hear some people talk about medicine and the pay of its practitioners. Th e truth of all is that in any profession, there are always those that end up being not so happy and fulfilled. We can spend eternity talking about the pay of docs but let's not forget that in the community of docs lies a lot of differences in skills. There is money in surgery not just medicine. I know docs in our country that take at 800000 monthly aside other allowances and i have also heard of those that get as low as 40000 but not 18000. I believe no doc with the right qualification and repute will take that low. What many people don't know is that some people we think to be docs are not really what they claim. Maybe they have had their licences witheld or have a very bad medical record of employment. I magine 8 of ur patients dying out of ten. No good hospital will take you. As much as i love medicine i don't practice for peanuts. If i think i can't get enough pay in my country, i'll go elsewhere. That's where we have the problem. Most of our indigenously trained docs are educationally inadequate to get a job in better countries so they claim they want to stay here.
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karl ken (m)
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Really is good to hear some people talk about medicine and the pay of its practitioners. Th e truth of all is that in any profession, there are always those that end up being not so happy and fulfilled. We can spend eternity talking about the pay of docs but let's not forget that in the community of docs lies a lot of differences in skills. There is money in surgery not just medicine. I know docs in our country that take at 800000 monthly aside other allowances and i have also heard of those that get as low as 40000 but not 18000. I believe no doc with the right qualification and repute will take that low. What many people don't know is that some people we think to be docs are not really what they claim. Maybe they have had their licences witheld or have a very bad medical record of employment. I magine 8 of your patients dying out of ten. No good hospital will take you. As much as i love medicine i don't practice for peanuts. If i think i can't get enough pay in my country, i'll go elsewhere. That's where we have the problem. Most of our indigenously trained docs are educationally inadequate to get a job in better countries so they claim they want to stay here.
8 patients dieing out of 10 . |
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Pennywise
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@Kongi
I hear you my brother. Adenuga and Aliko might fail woefully as CMD for all we know.
The NHIS is good to the extent that it has offices around the country into which are employed paid Nigerians.Unlike the NHS the NHIS has been reduced to a regulating commission.The responsibility of enroling civil servants mins, agencies and parastatals has been ceded (!) to registered HMOs among which the NHIS in its infinite wisdom divided enrolees. This presupposes at once that no more HMO is welcome!!
These HMOs are required to have offices in all the six geo zones but most of them have nothing save for gsm nos and of course account nos with which deductions of workers salaries are siphoned. Providers get nothing hence workers get nothing. Meanwhile colossal deductions are being made. Your senior NHIS friend will give you details. At the same time some desperate providers are knifing themselves over the few enrolees earlier made.
In summary Nigeria is way too low on the human probity index required for a health Insurance on a scale the NHIS portend. Unfortunately like the Land use decree, everyone concur it does more harm than good but no one has the courage to do sth about it. NHIS is enriching HMOs and impoverishing doctors.
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kempo (m)
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Hmmmmm!!!!!! No wonder why the Economists say that human wants are insatiable. I used to envy doctors because i knew they are rich. But because i can't stand the sight of blood so i never wanted to study medicine. I studied Engineering and went for NYSC and there my envy for docs increased. The only doctor that was with us, a lady was earning 70k while we were paid 5k each. Since doctors can still work with oil industries or any where else, the issue of Doctors being under paid is wrong because as many Engineers, Accountants,Economists etc are earning much so are many docs. And there are still some that are even jobless. WHAT ONE EARNS BE YOU DOCTOR, ENGINEER OR WHATEVER IS A MATER OF DESTINY. In any thing you want to do dnt place money first else you might not see it. Some teachers are millionaires mind you
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whobemumu
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now somebody who is involved is going to answer some of the questions
1 i am a doctor , the pay is poor , it is possble to earn 18 k as a doc , it is also possible to earn 120 k depending on your location , i have a friend who was not paid for the last 6 months of his nysc , he of course stopped working , most docs esp in the large cities do 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet , and please don't tell me about humanitarian profession , we are the ones in need of humanitarian aid , after spending 8 years in school for the lucky bright ones we are paid peanuts , people i fed during service earn 3 times what i earn and they don't work weekends or get woken up at 2 to see patients . i will leave this country once i get the chance . thank u for ur time
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babaCT (m)
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idupaul,r u for real?so u expect a doc that has put in so much effort to live on a meagre salary abi?na waoh!
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MrPrsdent (m)
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, even here in small namibia, No doctor will work for less than US$3500 per month. and there are not enough doctors anyway
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