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Softee (f)
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OMG!!! What are we doing to christianity, this is not how God intended it to be!!!! Is that even a question!! NO WAY. This was why God destroyed soddom and Gomorrah because people were doing this.
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lewa (m)
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Hi y'all ,the question is that all of you guys seem still not to get it.Proponets of same sex marriages
in the church are saying that the church is driving millions of people away(ie lesbos ,homosexuals and transgenders)
who are christians and believe God made them that way period.No one is espousing your bible verses that some of you
are quoting.Ko si aye fun ye l america(no chance for that in America).T o the Espicopal Church God loves us for who
we are and being different has nothing to do with God not loving them. No one has really searched the scriptures to tell them its wrong or right.Rather the Church of England is playing politics with this.Is being a lesbian same as being possessed by some spirit or demon ?i know back in those days at home that was the teaching and how come those parts of the bible that refer to man lying with man etc being suppressed in this debate? How come also that its only the churches in developing nations fighting this?Perhaps the dwindling fortunes of churches in the west as per attendance
is responsible.
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ajia23 (m)
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Lewa, That exactly is my point when I said christianity is a religion of consensus. Now, Millions of gays and lesbians want to change god's law as it is written in the bible. Those from developing nations are just deluding themselves, eventually the western churches will win. Just go to this thread and you will see other laws that have been set aside. http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-17418.32.html#msg484688 |
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lil bie (f)
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 A lot of twixted teachings are creeping into the church of God all in the name of acceptance. I would like you all to know that these teachings are directly from the pit of hell   and couldn't have been from God. God is not the author of confusion. There is a way He has set things to go. So, why pervert things? Even our culture frowns against such not to talk of God Almighty.
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Gwaine (m)
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When it comes to morality, christianity is not the perfect example. In the US and European Union, christian parties lead the campaign for abolition of the death penalty in a lot of states and countries. This is inspite of what the bible says about the death penalty. When I pose the question of what should be done to a murderer, the answer is very varied amongst christians. Some would say he should be killed. Others will say he should be sent to prison arguing that the provision on killing is in the old testament. That Jesus is love and he should be held until he repents. There is no standard treatment of sundry crimes in christianity. So, I cannot but conclude that soon, not only the anglican church, but indeed most churches will sanction same-sex marriages and gay pastors.
I am not saying this with the cockiness of a clairvoyant, but with humility of a bemused observer. Please prove me wrong.
@ajia23, You're actually being cocky, and allow me to show you a few things. This issue has been trashed quite well by mlks_baby in an earlier discourse with you in Re: Similarities And Differences Between Christianity And Islam. Your recent posts expose two things about your reasoning: a deliberate anti-Christian stance that prevents you from making sense out of political issues; and, your typically far-fetched analogies ferreted to hinge your misconceptions on. You're referring to the political machineries of the US and EU as if those are 'Christian' establishments. You're talking about morality in the West as if the Bible endorses what's happening in many quarters of that hemisphere. Apply the same rules to the several 'Muslim' countries around the world - which one of them by Islamic tenets is a perfect example of morality? Pakistan? Afghanistan? Iraq? Or, you're still yet to be made aware that there are gay and lesbian Muslims living in Muslim communities who want their voices heard - even in the UK? Take a peep at the following: # "Across the globe and especially in America, hundreds of other gay Muslims have started to pursue marriages of convenience -- or MOC, as they are known -- in which gay Muslims seek out lesbian Muslims, and vice versa, for appearances sake." Source: Beliefnet.com >> http://www.beliefnet.com/story/193/story_19350_1.html # "Sandi Dubowski, who won the Teddy gay and lesbian award in 2001 for his controversial doc "Trembling Before G_d," may cause an even bigger stir with " In the Name of Allah," which explores the struggles of homosexual Muslims." Source: Variety's Festivals and Markets. Or, you would find it very convenient to accuse Christians and the Bible of immorality when in Islamic schools, Muslim clerics were helping themselves to the heinous 'treat' of child molestation See below: # "A Pakistani minister has revealed hundreds of cases of alleged child sex abuse at Islamic schools, or madrassas. There were 500 complaints this year of abuse allegedly committed by clerics, Aamer Liaquat Hussain, a minister in the religious affairs department, said. That compares with 2,000 last year, but as yet there have been no successful prosecutions, Mr Hussain told the BBC." Source: BBC Report >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4084951.stm We know why there are no successful prosecutions - Muslim authorities would rather play hocus-pocus or chicanery to cover up what they pretend to decry. It's alright to hang teenagers for the same homosexual tendencies in Mashad, Iran, a year ago; but it's just-not-so-politically-correct to punish adults (especially Muslims clerics) who sexually molest children in Pakistan, more so in the view of the religious political leaders who sent death threats to the minister that revealed the madrassas mess. Bottomline is that there are Muslim gays and lesbians, as well as Muslim clerics who are child-molesters - are they "the perfect example" of your morality? In just the same way as Muslims would disavow that lifestyle, they should understand that Christians reject such lifestyles because they are not encouraged in the Bible. When discussing publicly affecting issues, try not being so cocky as you actually have been in your latest posts. It might interest you to know that the Bible does not sanction or condone homosexuality - either in the OT or NT, and Bible-believing evangelical Christians have been very vocal in decrying and disavowing any suggestion that the Bible countenances the lifestyle. See Lev. 20:13 and Rom. 1:25-28. |
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saintchux (m)
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why should church allow same sex marriage?
What is the aim of such marriage?
It is an abomination and should not even be discussed.
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TV01 (m)
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Should the church allow same sex marriage?
It's not the churches job to allow or disallow anything.
The Churches job is to speak forth God's will to the world/state and shine forth as a witness to Him by living holy lives (which attests to His will) and performing good works (which causes him to be glorified).
Now "The Church"" simply defined (comprises) of all who repent towards God and put their faith (living, active, obedient faith, not the “even the devil believes kind”) in Jesus Christ".
Now some may feel that "Church" is synonymous with the institutional entity (in it's myriad versions and hundreds of strains) labelled church. Not so. For ease, we'll call that the "institutional church" (IC).
Please don't get me wrong, there are members of the "Church" (body of Christ) in the IC, but membership/attendance of an IC in no way affirms one's “Christianity”, or is to be mistaken with being part of the body. “Churchianity =/= Christianity”
But lets do Bible.
John the Baptist was a good “type of the church”.
Mark 6:18 - For John had said to Herod, "It is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife."
Here is John witnessing against the state (typified here by Herod ~ spot the IC in this narrative). For what it was worth, John had his head lopped off. (note the parallel with Elijah, Ahab and Jezebel).
Calls to mind the recent union between Prince Charles & Camilla Parker-Bowles, conducted by the “Church of England”
The long-term adulterous affair between the pair and Charles’ complicity (by his actions at least) in His wife’s death aside, Major Parker Bowles was/is still alive. This union is in the words of John, contrary to the will of God. It is unlawful for him to have her. The “Church” (individually or collectively) is to scream this from the rooftops (not that they had anything to fear). Instead, the “Church of England” was complicit in a public trampling of God’s law.
As for certain IC denominations permitting, legislating or wholeheartedly encouraging same-sex unions. No problem. Leaves people in no doubt as to which god they serve and just confirms my “Churchianity =/= Christianity point above.
The word translated church, literally means “set-apart” or “called-out” ones and that should help define it’s mandate. Called out and set apart from the world, but to witness to it as I outlined to begin with.
I always have a good chuckle when people ask if it’s a good idea for one of their “MOG’s” to run for political leadership or trumpet the Christian faith of their leaders.
The “true church” does not partner or align with, campaign or mediate for, consult, champion or endorse the state (if they concur on areas fine, but the churches imperative is God’s Word not man’s laws).
So to answer your question, no, absolutely not!
In fact, for the true church to do so, it would contravene it’s mandate and effectively cease to be the true church. TC or IC anybody?
God bless
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Rhea (m)
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To cut a long story short
Leviticus 18:22 -
"Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.
Leviticus 20:13 -
The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense.
1 Corinthians 6:9:
Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,
1 Timothy 1:10:
These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching
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lewa (m)
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Rhea thanks - but still no one is saying these to accuse the Episcopal church of being in league with the devil.
I miss Naija, here you gotta be "politically correct" or else na trouble be that
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chi-baby (f)
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is this topic really debateable? hell NO. i don't think so. i mean how can someone agree with this topic apart 4rom d lesbians n d homos. the bible presents marriage as a man n a woman thing, becoming one as d example waz set by adam n eve so really, i don't see a point in this topic. it's just pathetic! n it's really disgusting. i really wish this ungodly act could be banned because i can imagine how god feels when people go astray 4rom d footsteps he's set before going bck 2 his father. |
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mamaput (f)
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: TV01 I have one word for you David and Bethshaba well that is 3 words.
And God loved Solomon
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ajia23 (m)
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Gwaine
Did you know this?
I have said many times on this post that the God who gave that law in the Old Testament acted in the capacity of a Government over atheocratic state called Isreal. He corroborated this in the New Testament where we are told that the secular government is God's tool to reward the just and to punish the unlawful. When are you guys going to get this into your heads? Maybe your constant refusal to see this is what makes people just ignore you, as no one has the time to keep repeating themselves over and over again.
These words are not mine but TayoD's. So what were you saying about America? It's either you are not such a good scholar as you think or you are just being plain dishonest.
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ajia23 (m)
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TV01
Let them know the reality that they are in self denial over. It's all about majority. God asked them according to Gwaine to subject their liberties to secular governments, this is the exact thing I noticed earlier when I said it is about consensus not what the bible says.
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Gwaine (m)
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@ajia23,
How does one begin to measure your illiteracy?
Did I not mention that in your reference to the US and EU, mlks_baby has already trashed out with you on another thread - and that roundly so?? Now that you're posting TayoD's re-iteration of the point already dealt with, doesn't that confirm and further strengthen my argument?
To guarantee you by way of simple explanation, note the following:
# The US and the EU are not set up as "Christian" establishments by the tenets and doctrines of Jesus Christ.
If you understand the message and mission of Christ Himself, then it should not be difficult for you to understand my point. The leader of the United States is not called a "Pastor" or "Bishop" - rather, he's a "President", and that should make you understand that the US is not a church but a political entity, as much as is the EU.
# God indeed set up these political entities for His own purpose, even though they may not be following His mind.
He calls us to not resist them (Rom. 13:2), but to be subject to them even though they are not "Christian" or "Church" institutions and establishments. God wants Christians to recognise that on earth today, He sees just three classes of people by cultural identity: (a) the Jews - i.e., the Israelites under the Law of Moses; (b) the Gentiles - i.e., those who are neither Jews nor Christians, and therefore includes people of other faiths or political leanings; (c) the Church of God - i.e., Christians. And to these three groups we are not to give offence to any one of them (I Cor. 10:32). In the NT, Christians are neither Jews under the Law of Moses, nor are they prudish secularists.
# Therefore, God calls Christians to respect the various political entities and civil governments in any country.
That is the reason we pay our taxes (Rom. 13:6), and respect the civil governments of the various countries of the world, in recognition that they are set up by God for the punishment of Christian and non-Christian citizens of those countries for whatever crimes they commit (Rom. 13:1-5).
# Jesus Christ Himself taught that those who believe in and follow His teachings were not to take the law into their own hands, but respect the civil and political authorities in whatever countries Christians find themselves. In this connection, mlks_baby pointed out to you that the principle therefore is found in Christ's own word in Mark 12:17 -
"And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's,
and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him."
Things that are Caesar's are political - that's why we pay our taxes. The things that are God's point to spiritual matters - that's why worship belongs to God alone and not to Caesar or any civil or political entity. So, to mix them up and expect that the US and the EU should be taken as Christian establishments is to misunderstand the Bible, misunderstand Christians, misunderstand mlks_baby, misunderstand TayoD, . . . and now misunderstand my humble self - Gwaine!!
Point is, as I said before in reference to your 'morality' campaign of the West and the EU, you ought to recognise that the complaints you raised are also well-served in Islamic communes - and there are lots of gay and lesbian Muslims around the world, as well as Muslim clerics who molest children and go scot-free because the Muslim authorities are playing chicanery and covering up their heinous crimes against humanity and children. Is that, too, not the "Islamic consensus" evident in Pakistan, Afghanistan. . . and (if you look closer home) evident in the book dreamed up by the Quraish prophet Muhammad?
Was my diction too hard for you to have turned round and accused me of "just being plain dishonest" - because what I pointed out could not be verified? Where? How? When?
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4get_me (m)
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@ajia23, Let them know the reality that they are in self denial over. It's all about majority. God asked them according to Gwaine to subject their liberties to secular governments, this is the exact thing I noticed earlier when I said it is about consensus not what the bible says. What really are you saying in one breath? On the one hand, you're forcing the idea that God asked Christians to submit their liberties to secular governments, while on the other it is not what the Bible says! You're beginning to sound really confused, and that's probably why Gwaine gets mad at you because you simply can't assimilate what you read. The Bible does not ask Christians to "subject their liberties to secular governments" anymore than it demands us to take the laws into our hands. To be subject to civil authorities means that we don't take the law into our own hands, we are law-abiding, and we respect the governmental policies in place in any civil country. In dictatorial governments, Christians have made efforts to push for political reforms without going so far as to take the laws into their own hands. All that have been offered in the replies by TayoD and Gwaine are Biblically sound - unless for some inexplicable reason you'D rather not read them carefully so that you keep missing the point. Take another example. You are presently in Nairobi, Kenya - a country not operating under Sharia Law. Now, would you want me to believe that as a Muslim, you've always gone about living in contradistinction to the civil laws and governmental policies of the Kenyan Government? Of course, they have punitive laws and other codified measures of dealing with criminals in their laws - and they are different from the stipulations of the Sharia Law that operates in Afghanistan. The Kenyan government may not cut off the hands and legs of thieves; does that mean that there are no punitive measures against criminals like that? So, if you are happy to live in subjection to the laws of the land, would that be saying you're subjecting your liberties to the secular government of Kenya? And if so, what then is your quarrel with Christians aiming to live in peaceful co-existence with people under civil governments? Please, just be reasonable when making inputs. |
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Adekan (f)
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it is obvious that the world we live in is turning upside down, believe it or not the is still going to go through more serious harrasssment from the evil one and his followers. the issue of allowing gay marriages in the church is just a small example of is to come.
Anyway i'm so glad about the stand that so many of you guys are taking on this particular issue. it shows we still have people who have not allowed themselves to be drawn into the perversion of the world, thank God for that.
For people who are gay, i don't condenmn you. just like a guy rightly said some people were abused, some due to their poor upbringing cofuse the gender roles. look God understands what you are going through and He loves you believe it or not, but don't think that He is going to allow you enter into His rest if you don't come to Him for help. God can make you"straight again" if you come to Him.
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dwhale (m)
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I think the bible says something about immoralities. This must be exactly what it meant and it should should be seen as such; in the church or elsewhere.
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TV01 (m)
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Morning All, In reverse order. TV01
Let them know the reality that they are in self denial over. It's all about majority. God asked them according to Gwaine to subject their liberties to secular governments, this is the exact thing I noticed earlier when I said it is about consensus not what the bible says.
Hi Ajia23 ~ I don’t believe it’s a question of self-denial. God (through scripture) did not ask us to “subject our liberties” to secular government. That is absurd. Christians are to be subject to the secular (state) rule of law as long as it not in violation of God’s divine law. And no, it is not about consensus. Or maybe I should say God’s word is the Christian consensus. The kingdom of God is not a democracy. The only mandate a Christian needs is the Bible. In my previous post, I referred to John’s denouncement of the illegal union between Herod and his brother Philips wife. Was John a majority? No. But he unambiguously pronounced God’s word. The voice of the Jewish establishment/Pharisees or other sects was nowhere to be heard. So it’s never about the majority, be that a majority of the total population (including Christians), or a majority of those professing Christianity. It’s why I have my doubt about Christian politics/politicians. Politicians represent constituencies, not faiths. A so-called “Christian Politician” will be compromised or to a great degree subject to the will of a “mixed multitude”. Christians are to be ambassadors of Christ. You can’t serve two masters. : TV01 I have one word for you David and Bethshaba well that is 3 words.
And God loved Solomon
Hi Mamaput, ~ I counted seven in total  ! I’m not exactly sure about the point you are making. David sinned? Yes. God forgave him? Yes. But David repented. Same-sex unions scream, rebellion against God and hatred for His ways, perverts His divine order and tramples His laws underfoot. And yes God loved Solomon, God loves homosexuals, it’s why Jesus hung on a cross. Rhea thanks - but still no one is saying these to accuse the Episcopal church of being in league with the devil.
I miss Naija, here you gotta be "politically correct" or else na trouble be that
Hi Lewa ~ So, if you utterly revolt against God’s divine law, trample is ordinances underfoot and totally abhor His ordinances, whose side does that put you on? Jesus said to the Pharisees/unbelieving Jews ~ “You are of your father the devil” (John 8:44). There are only two sides, and there’s no playing both of them. God bless |
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dearzi (f)
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@TVO1
Gosh!!! i love you! for such clarity--you just made me smile this morning! God bless you.
Who is the church? the body of Christ is the church--not the buildings, or the people in administration! but those who believe in Christ as Lord and Master. Those who have come by the way of His saving Grace--they are the church. Forget the church of England, that is just a perverted group of people mixing church and politics! they don't mix!!
Should the body of Christ allow same sex marriage? it's not even in our power to allow or unallow it! because we follow a higher calling. God has already stated his ordinances, and we know His words are yeah, amen, and law, and CANNOT return to Him void. So if God has called the act of homosexuality/ sodomizing/ lesbianism/ beastialism etc an abomination, who are we to say otherwise?? can the body function without the head? Christ is the head of the church--and if you do your biology very well, your body functions are controlled from the top! so God has said it we cannot do otherwise! God does not want it--we can't have it.
Those that do are compromising, and we know their end is destruction. But now, that it is still day, they can ask for forgiveness and grace, before the hour of the Son of God shall come.
So to answer the question: the church CANNOT allow it. Our God has called it an abomination, and no where in scripture did He take His words back. What we will do as believers is stand by God's truth. The very act itself does not conform with God's original manuscript for humanity, and so like its originator--the devil, it and its followers will perish.
Christians are not called to be politically correct. We are in this world doesn't make us of the world, so, please, don't start dabbling in civilian matters because of political correctness. Be wise.
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TV01 (m)
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@TVO1
Gosh!!! i love you! for such clarity--you just made me smile this morning! God bless you.
Hi Dearzi, Thanks for the kind words, you've too kind! May your love for God (and the brethren ) never grow cold. God bless |
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ajia23 (m)
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TV01
Thanks for that explanation. I know truely that indeed theoretically, christianity will never support homosexualism, if it is anything like the christianity I practised as a young boy. However, I intend to warn christians to be wary of the actions of their so-called leaders who will eventually change the laws to suit their own whims and caprices. Provisions of the bible which hitherto were very unambiguous will be modified and then would be read to take on meanings which were not intended when they were revealed. Islam faces this risk in a smaller proportion as there are rigid laws that deal with such in Islam. Thus if someone attempts to change even a provision of the hadiths which is only just the second source of jurispudence in Islam, He surely will be apprehended and dealt with in accordance with the Sharia law. That is why such dissidents find western countries as a safe heaven. As long as it remains so, the main body of Islam will be preserved. But christianity handles the issue with kid golves, and before long, the cancer will spread to Africa as the imperial powers will demand a change in doctrine along with the flow of cash. That's why it is imperative for christians to be shocked to action to tackle the menace NOW, and nip it in the bud before it runs out of control.
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Gwaine (m)
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Good advice, but if we take action NOW the way you suggest, then we'll be guilty ourselves of doing the same thing the Bible condemns - and that is, re-writing the Bible! How? Let me show you:
Bible-believing evangelical Christians who seek to please God by obeying His word will read, study and try to understand His mind on any issue. Sometimes, our human nature wants to be drastic - on others; but often fail to see that God's calling is a personal matter of the heart, and a collective call to response in worship.
Long before our present age, God foresaw that people will make all kinds of move to twist His word and compromise His set standards. Here are a few texts to the point:
Matt. 24:10-11, 24-25
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. . .For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before.
I Tim. 4:1-3
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
Now, forebidding to marry in that context does not mean just celibacy - it addresses the character of marriage espoused by those who pursue a union other than God has stipulated. Jesus did not forbid marriage at all, but he discountenanced any form of so-called union termed "marriage" that was contrary to the revealed will of God. That's why He clearly re-affirmed what God recognised as a true marriage in Mark 10:6-9 ~~
"But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."
The question is, what has God joined together -
man + man
woman + woman?
It is clear in the Bible that same sex marriages or unions are contrary to God's mind of what marriage ought to be.
Back to the point - we cannot go out and legalistically and rigidly 'enforce' the NT upon fellow "Christians" who have chosen to do as they please and compromise their faith - just as Paul warned that some will indeed depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits. So, what should we do - glibly fold our arms and acknowledge the state of affairs passively by joining in? Not at all.
There are several recommendations in the Bible that show the way out of such dilemma facing the true Christian in a world of compromise:
# Those Who Know God Shoud Depart From Iniquity - 2 Tim. 2:19-22
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
# Those Who Know God Should Intercede For Others - Jude 21-23
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
# Those Who Know God Avoid Unreasonable Debates - 2 Tim 2:23-26
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
There certainly are more, but these priciples have been a tremendous help to me.
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lewa (m)
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@ TVO1
I m for justice and truth. I don't support same sex marriages in the church or "queer" priests.
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lewa (m)
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I have worked with lesbians before and they were ok people. Cause i never did support their choice of lifestyle
-you can imagine the backleash in a multinational that you openly state your distaste for those who sexual orientation is different from yours. Thats what i meant by being politically correct. 20 years ago lesbians and homosexals were really reviled, but there seems to be an acceptance that 'SOME PEOPLE ARE BORN THAT WAY"which i don't believe
and thats what is sickening that even the church is buying that-well its the end times.
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kellorah (f)
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a good church shouldn't allow such but i am not homophobic
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ajia23 (m)
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Thanks Gwaine,
But I need to see how you will tackle the issue as a good christian. It's not enough to preach to these people as they claim God made them that way. My fear is ones kid could get influenced in school, and before long will say I discovered I am gay, and thus the syndrome will spread like it did in the times of Nuh (ASW) or Noah. So, how exactly are we expected to combat this from the christian perspective?
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Gwaine (m)
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@ajia23,
Your observation is timely. People have always claimed that they were created this way or that, so that they could get away with certain lifetsyles. It is just as good as anyone claiming he or she has been 'created' as porn star, although I'm by no means stretching this analogy to imply that gays and lesbies are porn perverts.
As Christians, we believe that people could be helped to see themselves for who they are so that they could begin to appreciate that homosexuality is more a matter of choices and influences than of having been created that way. Most people now even claim that scientific studies reveal their biological makeup "prove" they were made that way from what is now touted as the "gay gene." The interesting thing is that no scientific study has actually concluded the gay gene as a biological fact.
That's the more reason that Christians continue to preach, teach and provide practical help and therapy to help those seeking a way out of the lifestyle. Some will remain - as a matter of choice - and they will do everything possible to fight against anything that seeks to present an alternative to their choices.
Living in any mixed society will definitely have influences on our psyche, morality, family and values. The answer to this is not to clobber others who don't fit in our mold, for the Bible recognizes the right of people to make their own choices, even if these choices run contrary to the spiritual values we hold; it only further asks that we do not necessarily allow ourselves to come under those inimical influences -
1 Cor. 5:9-11
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people - not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
Sexual immorality is a serious matter in the Bible, more so in Christianity. While we recognise in the world that all kinds of sexual preferences are paraded, we are to reach out to everyone experiencing this struggle - including those who call themselves 'brother' (that is fellow Christians) as well as non-Christians. In this context, we recognise that there are Muslims who also have this struggle and want to understand what it's all about.
On the whole, from the prophetic dimension, Jesus indeed declared that values will become warped and deteriorate as was in the days of Noah (Matt. 24:37-39). And this is all the more a pointer to His coming. We cannot force anyone and everyone against their choices or values; but the state of affairs we find all around us simply show that Jesus' prophetic declarations are being fulfilled before our very eyes.
So, what does the Christian do? Pray, Preach, and Practice his faith - as I attempted earlier in my post.
We pray for ourselves and our loved ones - family, friends, neighbours.
We reach out to everyone with the goodnews by persevering to preach it on.
We practice our faith by giving evidence of God's life-changing power, as well as seeking practical ways to help those who need answers.
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GL (f)
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The Bible's condemnation of homosexuality is probably the strongest of any sin. The bible portrays homosexuality as a result of God's abandonment of a person or society. In other words, the bible is saying u can't be a homosexual and a christian. You've got to leave one for another. Romans 1:21 - 31 gives God's account of homosexuality. It says that when people knowingly ascribe to themselves glory due to God, their hearts bcome darkened and they become foolish though they think they're wise. Then they begin to make gods of animals and things created by God. So God abandons them to their sins and actually permits them to go into homosexuality and a number of other sins. God even gives them up to reprobate minds and they begin to justify their sins in their minds.
This might explain why one of the major sins of fallen Christian leaders is immorality. Once people become proud and boastful and begin to ascribe glory to themselves rather than God, a door is opened within their lives to sexual impurity and lusts. If they do not turn and repent, they will ultimately be given over to reprobate minds.
In one of his epistles, Paul urges converted homosexuals to be stedfast in their faith and not to go back. This means that it isn't an unforgivable sin, and that God expects the Church to witness to them. However, He wouldn't tolerate it in the church. We should note that the bible isn't talking against only those who practice this sins, but those who have pleasure in (or give approval to) those who practice them. Thus, any Church that tolerates homosexuality (and indeed SIN) is out of the will of God.
What those who are pushing for the acceptance of homosexuality by the Church are missing is that the Church belongs to Jesus. It is an institution founded on a Person, Jesus Christ. All who join the Church voluntarily surrender their will to Jesus. They are bound by His rules. The constitution of Christianity has already been written and cannot be modified. People have to either comply or opt out. We cannot accept homosexuality in the church. Once we do that, we're no longer a church. At least not a Church of Jesus.
The Church is expected to love them, witness to them, pray for them, and encourage those who want to convert. It is not easy to change one's lifestyle and christians must really support those who would attempt to do that. Christians must be firm and LOVING in not tolerating homosexuality. The Church shouldn't aim at many members, but at many disciples. It is the disciples that would get to heaven anyway.
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lewa (m)
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@ GL
Beautiful post.Well done
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