Ugly Britain

@WALEAB
so u didnt see the many pictures angiefan has posted about deplorale conditions in nigeria including dead bodies e.t.c
or did i manufacture  the articles i posted in reply to hers or are mine the only ones you can see here???

I will now unsubscribe from this thread. I see it has gone out of control. Enough said.

More from Ugly Nigeria. Opps I mean Britain.










The above is the reality for tens of millions of Nigerians, making up the majority of the country. Deal with it! Charity begins at home so sort out your own shit first before having the nerve to criticise others!

THESE ONES ARE NEW . I will not post dead bodies however because I wont sink to your level of indecency and insanity and because dead British  folks are not so good to look at 

Hahahahaha

The difference between floods in the UK and in Nigeria is that one is man-made and the other an act of God. That plus the surrounding areas of the floods pics in Nigeria compared to the UK ones speak volumes.

The only reason you are unable to find a picture of a dead person lying on the streets on Britain while everyone minds their own business is because it is unheard of unlike in Nigeria.

Anyway carry on. I am kind of getting a kick out of watching you and the other one squirm when presented with REAL images of your country. It hurt's when one is made to face up to their own shit doesn't it? lol!

this is also a part of my nigeria

MAD COW DESEASE; TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM FOOT AND MOUTH WHY DO YOUR MEAT HAVE THES FUNNY DESEASES BTW, IN SPITE OF YOUR COUNTRY BEING A SUPPOSED "DEVELOPED COUNTRY"
NO WONDER THERE ARE MANY BI POLAR BRITISH
COMPERE: Britain has plunged from one meat crisis to another.

Already reeling from the Mad Cow disease scare, authorities there have been trying to reassure the public that its chicken and turkey are safe to eat. It follows the breaking of an elaborate meat contamination racket in which tonnes of rancid meat were cleaned up and sold to butchers and supermarkets across the country.

Five men, who netted about $5 million for their involvement, are being sentenced today.

While authorities are sticking to the line that the scam is a 'one off', others say the food hygiene laws aren't tough enough. In Australia, though, the Meat Industry is saying it could never happen here.

Rebecca Carmody reports.

REBECCA CARMODY: In the United Kingdom it's hardly surprising, given the Mad Cow disease scare, that poultry is the favoured meat. People eat twice as much of it as they do beef. But cravings for poultry are starting to wain, and turkey is looking less of a feast this Christmas.

A multi-million pound scam involving contaminated meat is behind the loss of appetite. Today five men will be gaoled for their part in the pet food scam. The men were arrested when investigating officers found containers of smelly and bruised poultry, covered in faecal matter, feathers and flies.

Food Safety Officer, Lesley Alder, describes what she saw.

LESLEY ALDER: We found two walk-in cold rooms full of infected progeny which was boxed up ready to go out for dispatch to butchers throughout the area. There were also large containers of turkey meat which was smelling, rotting - it had flies on the poultry. The smell was that bad I was actually physically sick.

REBECCA CARMODY: The scam is thought to have lasted four years, starting in 1993. Investigators claim two of the men bought the rancid meat and packaged it as pet food. A third cleaned it up, using large amounts of salt to removed slime. A fourth man relabelled the meat while the fifth sold it to butchers, restaurants and supermarkets.

It's not known how many people ate the contaminated meat or the amount who suffered food poisoning and even death from the carcinogens and tumours within the poultry. The prosecution had argued that the meat caused an incalculable risk to human health.

While some say the case points to a wider problem, David Statham [phonetic] from Britain's Food Standard's Agency says it's a one off.

DAVID STATHAM: I think it would be unwise to assume that because this one off case has been brought to book and found that that then means that there's lots of others of these things going on. We've no evidence of that at this stage but obviously if anybody does have any evidence, if they could bring it to our attention we will ensure that the local authorities and the police investigate it thoroughly and deal with it.

But I think people should be aware of the fact that the vast majority of our food is produced by people who are honest and trustworthy, and produce safe wholesome food. So there shouldn't be a great concern that this is happening all over the place because as far as we're aware at the moment it is a one off.

REBECCA CARMODY: Bob Biddle is the Head of Food Policy at the Australian Quarantine and Inspection Service. He says consumers have no reason to doubt the veracity of meat dished up here.

BOB BIDDLE: Well I think there are two levels of comfort. Firstly that we have appropriate regulations in place and that they are strictly enforced by State and Territory authorities and by, you know, Federal authorities in respect of export products.

And secondly that there is not the level of economic incentive as there is in Europe where meat is much more expensive than it is in this country.

REBECCA CARMODY: But Bob Biddle says it hasn't always been the case.

BOB BIDDLE: Unfortunately in the past we have had a Royal Commission into the Meat Industry where there was some substitution of meat that was not passed as fit for human consumption - so it can happen. But since that time very significant control measures have been put in place and continue to be enforced actively.

REBECCA CARMODY: That was in the 1980s and involved kangaroo meat being sold as beef for export. Bob Biddle says Australia nearly lost its beef market in the United States because of it.

BOB BIDDLE: Regrettably these parties were packing it as beef and selling it as beef and they got . and of course they got found out and many additional control measures were put in place as a result of those . those nefarious activities.

REBECCA CARMODY: Would your Inspectors be able to spot contaminated meat or is it possible for some to slip by?

BOB BIDDLE: Well we have a number of safeguards. They include species testing. If people were changing species that's labelled on the box we have specific tests to be able to detect that sort of practice. In regard to meat that's obtained in the field from illicit shooting operations it would be very easy to pick surface contamination - things such as small leaves or sticks or grass fragments and so forth which just not would be present on properly prepared meat.

COMPERE: Bob Biddle from the Australian Quarantine and Inspection Service, and that report by Rebecca Carmody.
 PRINT FRIENDLY EMAIL STORY

NOW ILL POST THE EFFECTS OF MAD COW DESEASE ON BRITISH MEN AND WOMEN, STAY TUNED
 
 
 

Forced evictions in Nigeria

IMAGINE THIS,
Shannon Matthews is the new face of poverty
Behind the headlines, a hidden world of sufferingMelanie Reid
We just don’t get it, do we? We have simply no idea, us douce middle classes, what the Shannon Matthews story is about. We’ve watched the saga unfold, first with the polite concern we would feel for any missing child, then with mild amazement when she was found alive. We’re delighted there’s been something we can imagine is a fairytale ending, especially so because now we don’t have to feel guilty any more about how little we care.

We don’t understand. At no point have we grasped the horrifying scale of emotional poverty and chaos that Shannon’s story reveals, because we are as removed from that kind of poverty as we are from events in Afghanistan.

For life among the white working class of Dewsbury looks like a foreign country. And because we don’t live there, and are never likely to, we have no concept of the reality in which hundreds of thousands of British children, just like Shannon, grow up.

Since 1997 the middle classes have heard Gordon Brown chunter on about his goals for ending child poverty in Britain, but they have done so with a profound lack of engagement. Poverty? In modern Britain? Yeah, yeah, we all know what that’s really about, don’t we? Feckless parents who waste all their money on widescreen TVs and booze and don’t have enough left for the children. We know the type. But the truth is, we don’t have a clue what modern social deprivation means.

Poverty has a new face now, and it’s called Shannon Matthews. What her sad little story has destroyed, possibly for ever, is the convenient middle-class myth of coherent, material poverty. Instead, it has revealed that what devastates the lives of modern children is something altogether much worse – inner poverty; poverty of the soul.

Although clothed and fed, often with a parent or a stepparent in work, children in Shannon’s world have to exist in a state of pervasive, low-level psychological chaos that is beyond the remedy of any social worker. There are no state palliatives for emotional neglect; or an endemic lack of emotional stability. There is absolutely no cure for the horrors of growing up with adults who exist in a state of permanent volatility.

In a world such as Shannon’s, there are no certainties other than the fact that there are no certainties.

These children are not like our children. Their parents are not adults we would recognise as adults. The children do not come home from school to someone to ask them how their day was. Many are denied anything but fleeting attention, interest and stimulation.

Many, furthermore, spend their lives trying to be invisible in order to cope with the adults in the house – hostile boyfriends; stressed, angry mothers. Any children’s charity will tell you that the biggest threat to children comes from violent boyfriends and lovers; from mothers, in other words, who prioritise their own relationships over their children.

Add to this households where drink and drug abuse by adults is a common factor, and you begin to see how scary and unstable some children’s lives are.

What was so telling about Shannon’s story, so far as it has been revealed, is that her abduction was not the extremely rare act by a stranger, but allegedly by someone she knew. Someone from this lost society in which adults, damaged and isolated, are incapable of adult responsiblities. Most children know those who harm them. Shannon was found concealed in the house of the extended relative – the uncle of her mother’s boyfriend; someone who had apparently played with her at a recent family funeral. Did the nine-year-old go off with someone she knew because he had offered her kindness in the past? Neighbours near to where she was found have spoken of hearing a child laughing and the sound of light footsteps.

Indeed, there were suggestions yesterday that other members from the little girl’s vast, complex network of fragmented family may have been involved. Only time will tell to what degree this was a sinister act, or simply a manifestation of inappropriate behaviour within a dysfunctional family group.

Reports say that Shannon was unhappy at home. She was described as a shy, quiet girl and her maternal grandparents have alleged that not only was her mother, their daughter, unfit to care, but that her live-in boyfriend was violent to the children. He denies this, and other family members support him.

Whatever the truth, there is little doubt the family was chaotic. Shannon’s mother, with seven children from five or even six different fathers – choose which paper to believe – cared for four of them aged between 11 and 2. The others lived with their natural fathers.

Before she disappeared Shannon scribbled a note on her bedroom wall saying that she wanted to live with her father, a man who – fitting perfectly into the pattern of her fractured familial life – lived a short distance away but did not appear to see her with any regularity. Did anyone, we are entitled to wonder, offer this little girl the basic attention and stability a child craves?

Shannon’s story is not, thankfully, a tragedy on the scale of Milly Dowler or Sarah Payne. But it is a tragedy nevertheless – a totemic little tale of everyday childhood misery in Britain, illustrative of so much more widespread suffering. Yes, the child has been found alive, but there is no real fairytale ending. To what does she return? To which version of least chaos? There is no happy-ever-after, and as her name fades from the headlines, and the privileged classes go back to pampering our own beloved offspring, I hope the memory of poor little Shannon stays with us.




Have your say

I am a teacher at a school in Dewsbury and it is so sad to know that many of my children are in the same circumstances that Shannon is in. To them school is a haven where they can get praise and care from adults and a sense of regularity in their lives. It's very sad that cases like this exist.

Lauren, Dewsbury,

Fantastic article,  brought tears to my eyes, 

My parents have fostered children for over 25years,  I grew up seeing children from very sad, poor and sometimes disturbing situations,  Nothing ever changes,  Its a sad world we live in!!

lisa, leicester, uk

I too am sick of the social scrounging underclass being labled as working class, the working class work.

bette, wiltshire,

Does anyone else find it annoying that families like this are actually labelled 'working class'? Coming from a wonderful 'working class' family, my parents have worked hard all their lives to provide my sister and I with the kind of upbringing that any child should have. Sometimes we didn't have much money, (I have some of the best memories of my life from camping holidays!), but my sister and I are now both university graduates. Please do not put my family in the same group, with the same 'working class' label, as people like this.

Lauren, North East,

Brilliant article. I agree. It's refreshing to hear that there is a suggestion that there is a poverty of the soul. We see it on the streets of Dewsbury, in the rise of gun and knife crime among our youth, the disregard for community, to name but a few. One of the sadnesses of our time is that we have become so defensive in our efforts to 'not judge, label' that we behave rather like the citizens in The Emperor's New Clothes', afraid to say 'what is' because it might cause offense.

In this story, fragmented values present themselves in obvious ways, however, these splintered values are not bound by social class but just easier to see on the streets of Dewsbury.

Debbie, London,

C4 email. I was born and spent the first 14 years of my life in Dewsbury. I watched the Shannon Mathews-Family's Story on C4 with a sort of morbid fascination but also witha sense of unease. I did not recognise the place as my home town. That is no criticism of the programme but of the society I observed which I did not recognise.

Exactly 50 years ago this year I started as a new pupil aged 11 at the Wheelwright Grammar School for boys in Dewsbury. That school as an institution is no more but the buildings are still there I believe. It has become a victim of the tendency in post war Britain to throw babies out with the bathwater. However the school is situated less than 1/2 a mile from the Mathews house and a similar distance from the house where she was discovered. If a circle were drawn with the Wheelwright at its centre I guess that it would encompass on its circumference the 2 dwellings in the story.

cont'd

Stephen Kirby, Louth, Lincolnshire, England

Mulling over the drama in your documentary and its unfolding since has made me think I should return to the town, and record my views of its change out of all recognition in the course of only 50 years, to the point where the police are daily spreading the net wider, and are commenting that there is an unpleasant undercurrent of violence that hey are worried might be unleashed by these events, including the bizarre crucifixion story, plus the arrests of almost everyone in the family story.

I still have a few family members in the area. Last weekend my father's sister told my mother on the phone that we would not recognise the place any more, following an incident when my Uncle Jim, a man in his nineties had a concrete block or similar missile thrown through his window in Ravensthorpe, in another part of the town. Mistaken identity the police said. This week she has announced her departure from Batley for York. She is a lady in her eighties.



Stephen Kirby, Louth, Lincolnshire, England

/ what you all fail to take into consideration is a lack of love Nobody seems to lover care about their communities any more,this lack of love care and intolerance is a disease that has spilled into everyday life, a child could be as happy with lesbian parents so long as its loved and cherished, and to the person who writes glibly about her abortions just what are you suggesting? That the world would be a better place without children like Shannon? what should we do just wipe her and her seemingly dysfunctional family of the planet? Far better had she or them not been born eh? I vaguely remember a moustachiod man from Germany who had the exact same attitude. This isn't about the class system or benefits, Its about lack of love and pride in ones family, in ones community and life in general. To quote MR Angry of Tunbridgewells 'England is sinking into the gutter'

Julie, Kent, England

middle class are so much better are they?
i do not agree, they may have money but most "middle class parents" get hired help to care for their kids, they do not know how to show them love or how to cae for them, only how to keep producing more offspring.
how dare anyone sugguest that poverty prevents a child from being treated and cared for in a mannor which is any less to a rich person.

victoria tomlin , bristol,

This scenario is endemic in the UK. I work in a primary school in Lancashire. I am witness to daily acts of neglect by parents, nearly all poor achievers and drop-outs and excludees have the same story. Parents never read to them, they don't walk them to school, they rarely play with them. Kids rarely leave the estate. They are often fed by neighbours or "family friends" whose houses they go to after school. These children often smell of nicotine, they are often unclean, wearing the same, tatty, stained clothes for weeks on end. Due to the bursting at the seams social-care system, even if flagged up as in need of extra care or at risk I see them slipping through the system and heading for a life of crime, or early pregnancy in the case of girls. I listen & care and support for 6 hours a day and fill their "leaky buckets" until they return EMPTY the next day. Stuff wrap-around-care, PARENTS do your job!! I see the efffects of lack of love,praise and care - it's devastating.

JR, Manchester, Lancs

You will insist on a class based society, Thank you. Goodbye, much worse to come.

Philip Holden, Tokyo, Japan

Mum came from a poverty ridden, no work, post-war coastal town. Mum was the eldest of eight children, most from different fathers, but that her father prefered to keep secret. Mum had me at twenty to probably the first Romeo that promised to take her away from the misery of having to replace her own mother who couldn't stand the strain of eight children left, and went on to remarry and have another five. Mum went through unbelievable suffering, yet managed to raise me through the most humble of jobs. She went on to have other children having believed in another Romeo, and welfare took them away them because of the lack of being able to provide for four children alone. The third Romeo turned out to be the right one. I survived through her sheer love. She could have easily turned me over to welfare or whatever it was called at that time. I can't help it, but the only unconditional love is that of a mother. Poverty has very little to do with a mother's love.

Ann Johnson, Brussels, Belgium

While I agree the family is unattractive and this type of family structure is largely a creation of the benefit system, I would argue that at my daughter's boarding school (one of the top and most expensive in the UK), there is equal neglect. Privilege doesn't guarantee good parenting or nurture, whatever you think

Melissa BRIGGS, London, UK

I am a single parent of three children under 11 and am struggling to find work. I am dependent on the maintenance I am being paid. If this stops,I will be even more dependent on state benefits.
Anyone who thinks we have it easy, should try to live our lives.
At the moment ,I envy those people with work.
Having children and then going through a divorce, can be a fast road to poverty.
Please be wary of labels such as 'working class' or 'single parents', because, very often, that is where prejudice begins.

K Domnick, Torquay, UK

Middle class society, especially the older generation, can spend its time pontificating and excoriating the state of Shannon's family but before they say that this that this is a modern phenomena, they need to be aware it has always gone on it's just that nobody recognised it. I was bought, during the war, to save a failing marriage, he left and I paid the price for my failure. My mother then started to have a string of boyfriends, some were unfriendly and some too friendly and my life's script became that in this world nothing is certain, only the bailiffs! I had my first breakdown at Shannon's age and have suffered similar mental health since. When does neglect become abuse, when does abuse become neglect? Are they not the same?
My mother was middle class and she worked but her wages were minimal as she had not been taught to earn a living and there was no government help. So think again before you judge old and young, in the end no-one wins. Julia Pomeroy, Chester

Julia Pomeroy, Chester,

Just watched the C4 programme on the family, dirty and untidy house with peeling walls and mouldy tiles etc. This is symptomatic of people not having to pay for or take responsibility for much in this world. A bit cleaning and a tin of paint (costing no more than the bunch of fags they puff on) would offer a notion of standards to their next generation - poor Shannon and her siblings.

Jim Lane, Manchester,

the truth is when mothers behave like karen matthews who as 7 children by many many fathers it is no wounder how children grow up the way they do or the fact little shannon wanted to run away and live with her dad(where as he been though)
sorry to be blunt but i bet it is goverment money keeping them all and it makes me sick,


michelle, inner city nottingham, uk

What nonsense! Child abuse is a non issue in our society and is mostly committed by women. Child neglect is the issue and workless families are by far the biggest problem.

jo, london, uk

I feel that this article is rather prejudiced against working class people.

I feel that any middle class person reading this may feel comfortable thinking that they will be better parents.

Unfortunately, not necessairly the case - 38% of girls and 16% of boys get sexually abused by family members - and this is not a class issue - there abusers come from a wide range of backgrounds - churchs, judges, teachers etc etc.

I think the problem lies is the society's acceptance of child abuse - more should be done so that children get believed and the abusers get removed from the family home rather than pointing the finger at working class families and blaming them for all of society's problems.

TG, Leeds,

If "Hatred randomly directed toward low-income families is the acceptable face of prejudice in the UK 2008", it's because they do a lot to deserve it and very little to deter it.

Penny Severin, Cressing, Essex

I wouldn't agree that this problem of emotional neglect only applies to the "working" class (or should that be non-working class??). I consider myself to be middle class, and live in a middle class area.
A neighbour has a child who is the most emotionally neglected child I have seen. The mother moved herself and her children 400 miles away from their father so she could be with the boyfriend she "met" on the internet. Granted, that is a steady relationship. In the last 6 years, she has played at being a student while her younger child has struggled at school from day 1, and has been the subject of school bullying for various reasons,one of which being the state of dress in which the child is put to school, despite the mother having plenty money to spend on boozy weekends abroad with her friends.
The child cries out for love and attention from anyone who will give her it-it's heartbreaking to watch.
But what do the children matter? As long as mum's alright!!

Elaine, Sheffield,

In reply to Ian, UK - you are angry at single parents and 'breeders' and then you quote examples from incidents that do not involve single parents - the kneejerk response follows a new order, that of zero logic.

Hatred randomly directed toward low-income families is the acceptable face of prejudice in the UK 2008

vix, derby, uk

Perhaps the government should stop assisting single parents to the extent that they do at the moment. Every day I see news articles about how personal responsibility is being systematically removed,  whether it is the mother of Scarlett or the McCanns saying "I was at worst naive" to the 18 year old kid who's party was gatecrashed "I was naive" but, it's never their own fault is it? Parents bring children into the world without accepting the responsibility of parenting,  certain elements of society breed and breed and breed without having the emotional or financial means of properly caring for their children.





Ian, UK,

What is more important than whether the middle classes understand chaotic families is whether politicians and journalists do. Both main parties want to make education policy based on what they perceive the"needs" of this group of people to be .
We are not talking about ordinary people who happen to be poor or who happen to live in an area with few jobs. We are talking about people with massive emotional damage and resulting cognitive deficits. Policy for all should not be made
as if this group will just climb out if the playing field is level. There is a lot that could be done but pretending everyone starts from the same place ignores the reality and just makes a nice soundbite.

Sam, Maidstone, UK

Did anyone see that news reporter trying to say his piece with all the lager yobs in the background dodging about and trying to get on camera?

If you did, then you'll have a good picture of what Dewsbury Moor is like.

I know the area from many years ago. It hasn't changed.

Rosy , Paris,

Melanie Reid - before you start making sweeping comments about the white working classes and their special poverty of the soul rhetoric, remember that although the middle classes and upper classes for that matter have access to material luxuries that may be beyond your stereotype of the white working class, they still share the same social problems. I have taught for many years in some fairly well-to-do schools and in some lower rung state schools. The children are the same, they want to be guided and cared for, and there is a shortage of both in all spheres of life. Parents from whatever class system you want to make judgement over need to take a good look at how they interact with their children and what examples they set - poverty of the soul is not a working class problem it is a cultural problem that has been encouraged by the feckless Gordon Brown and his merry crew, through years of nanny state policies and public sector abuse.

yorkie, Amsterdam,

I gre up in a similar area but in a large hosuing estate in Bristol. Surrounding by similar people. These types of people will always be around, you cannot change that. As much as I feel for this little girl and of her family. I need to add that so many of the children of which I went to school with, as I did suffered a dysfunctional family of abuse, drunks, drugs and just general bad behaviour. Most families living on the bead line due to broken relationships or generally laziness of those who drew benefits and knew how to work the system so they do not have to work. Its the life many choose to lead, many becuase they dont know any better. However, many of us grew up, got good jobs, married, had our own families and moved on. Lots like myself moved away. You cant blame society for everything that happens to you in life, you make your own decisions and most your own opportunities. Life is what you make it. Lets hope Shannon grows up to understand this and moves on with life

M, hampshire,

Steve in Altrincham, you are so right!

A.Barry, Andover, UK

For a start, there's nothing like a good sweeping generalisation is there?

Perhaps if you actually went there before writing articles like this and spoke to people, you may find that generalising not just an entire estate, but effectively the entire town, as being off the bottom of the social and moral scale is not only unfair, but may not even be correct by your own admission in your very own article.

As for the comments about lack of morals and religion, that just shows how out of touch some people really are, and shows the same regard for people's way of life as those who sought to show 'pagans' the 'right' way of living. The most poorly parented children I know happen to be middle class and spend about ten minutes a day around their parents. Or are you suggesting that having lots of material things and a big house are acceptable substitutes for a parents attention?

Tim Kinnear, Bradford,

I also appreciate Melanie Reid's efforts to get her middle class readers to better understand Shannon's circumstances, but I don't think she has succeeded at all. Why does it help us 'douce middle classes' to be told that we should be more sensitive to the barbaric, uncivilised members of the lower economic scale? That just exacerbates the class problem. It isolates us further. Furthermore, rich kids get abducted too. Often for similar reasons, and it's equally guilt rendering, isn't it? We still don't care. Wouldn't it be more useful to see Shannon as a tragedy in isolation, not an example of the working class condition? Drugs, alcoholism, violence and neglect are not problems specific to people with less money. It's unfair to pigeon hole people by basing it on their 'class.' How very 'middle class' of you! Let's get over this class paranoia; it's redundant. It actually worsens the problem. And worst of all, its getting old.

Zara Burdett, London,

I have never read the times before. (I read it whilst I was having a quiet drink with my husband on my day off.) It shall be my first choice in future.
This problem has bothered me deeply over the past few months. I live in a small town where it is plain to see that there are lots of families living in poverty.
I was brought up on a council estate and had a violent upbringing, we didn't have any money and I knew I had to work to have a decent standard of living, more so when my children came along.
There seems to be a lack of self motivation. I see parents who are not working, travelling in taxi's to and from the supermarket, they have the latest mobile phones and swear at their children as though it is perfectly normal.
We are constantly being reminded of yobbish behaviour and after listening to Jacqui Smith today on Jeremy Vine's radio show I am even more worried! I have voted Labour for the past 30 years, but no more, she is obviously not in touch with reality.

Margaret Barnes, Bacup, England

Excellent article. For those who are acquainted with it, though — even vicariously through writings such as Theodore Dalrymple's wonderful "Life at the Bottom" — none of this can come as any surprise.

And, until we can bear to limit our 'sexual freedoms' and become real adults, then we are unlikely to achieve emotional stability for ourselves or our poor, depraved-deprived children. And nothing we do or say about crime, alcohol, drugs or the ineducability of the young will amount to anything more than ritual handwringing. It really is time to let go of the penny, so we can take our hand out of the jar!

Meic Pearse, Houghton NY, U.S.A.

Perhaps Melanie Ried's piece claiming that "Shannon is the new face of poverty", has good intentions. But family dysfunction and its effects on children are not exclusively linked to income, location or her definitions of class. (We privileged people do not live in Dewsbury and "are never likely to"). Not wishing to be patronizing or anything, but whatever Reid's intentions, her argument is way off.

B Walklin, Leeds, UK

I have just finished reading Melanie Reid's article with increasing incredulity. Where's the 21st century classless society? How is she so convinced she will never live in Dewsbury? Surely none of us are immune to bad fortune, and many of us superior middle classes live in similar 'fragmented families'. This is a sad story with some unhappy relationships and harrowing family situations, but I don't feel the article helps us look forward to a brighter future where education and friendships can provide hope and mobility. Surely the most poignant part of the story was the tremendous community spirit shown by Shannon's neighbours. Do we find that in wealthier areas?

Nicky Beaven, Woodbridge, England

What a wonderful article. Melanie Reid dared to articulate the unthinkable.
I have no children. I do not believe I would have ever made a successful mother. In the 60s and again in the 70s I had two abortions which I have never for a moment regretted. To me the prospect of bringing into the world unwanted children is an unrelenting reproach which I am forever thankful never to have been reponsibsle for.

Angela, Shropshire, UK

The elephant in the room in regard to most of our social problems is inadequate parenting, the fallout from which includes:
- teen pregnancy
- binge drinking
- anti-social behaviour
- low-level crime
- obesity
- educational underachievement

We could cut all these by targeting the source: reducing the number of kids born to disadvantaged homes. A financial incentive to remain childless would be a great start!


Alex McGregor, Plymouth, UK

You say 'We just don't get it, do we?', Melanie. Give us a
break! Evidence of poverty of the soul in Dear Old Blighty (from its greedy upper echelons, through its self- regarding middle reaches and down to its self- hating lower depths) has been staring us in the face for years. It's certainly gathered pace under New Labour for the simple reason that we have become less and less willing to take responsibility for our actions and more and more susceptible to the siren songs of politicians.
Fearful of what we might find, were we to look deep in our own hearts, we have instead become obsessed with massaging our egos, and blind to Faith.
We can only hope that this is just an aberration and that we will awake from this trance of desire, before it is too late.

John Muir, Newnham,

The huge problem in this society is that no-one accepts that children need to be socialised. This was never traditionally a responsibility shouldered by parents on their own: families, communities, churches and schools all played their part.

Over the past 30 years this has become a society where looking out for "number one" has become the mantra. Most of these parents, regardless of their economic status, have no clue how to socialise their children partly because they have not been socialised themselves, and partly because abuse at the hands of authority (the Jersey care home, for example) has left them unwilling or unable (owing to draconian child protection laws) to wield any themselves.

The result: children who are raising themselves with no fear of or respect for authority; parents who happily abdicate their responsibilities; institutions that are powerless and dysfunctional. Children like Shannon will therefore always be at risk from themselves and from other adults

MS, London, England

For Charles Hand,

Before adopting such stringent arbitrary laws about stopping anyone from having children until when they have proved that they can afford them, I think we should improve our society to a) give the parents the chance to have children and be able to support them , b) to give the children the priority that they deserve. working young people today cannot ,as easily as few years ago , be able to start a family, as the price of properties to rent or to buy are very high and many occasions unreacheable. The benefits have been removed or eroded under the " improve the distribution", which implies cuts, by successive governments, the education budget has been cut, by increasing the administration, the budget for more teachers per children has been wittled away and there is nothing left.

There would be more to say, but unfortunately, this could go on for a little while.

anthony, chelmsford, UK

Shannon's story provides a powerful insight into family life from house to house across many parts of Britain today. As Melanie signs off however our unspoken class divides allow many of us to shut ourselves off from this reality until the next tragic story, so whose responsibility is this?

It's clear to us that a number of factors have exacerbated the decline of societal morals and standards in particular the following:

1. The promotion of risk by our public servants have made ordinary citizens withdraw from being good neighbours acting against the interests of children, young people and families.

2. Our local authority youth workers and social workers are so under resourced and flooded by paperwork that they have withdrawn from face to face contact and preventative work to focus only on crisis after the event

YMCA Scotland has found that managing risks and journeying with families over the long term provides a real answer but cries out for government's recognition.

Peter Crory, Edinburgh, Scotland

I agree with Juno, London. One of my 15 year old daughters friends has been in a sexual relationship with her boyfriend since she was 13. She not only gets her younger brother and sister up and ready for school but looks after them until 8pm when her mother and father return from their middle management jobs at IBM. They have no idea what their children are doing day to day and quite frankly as long as it doesn't affect them they don't care. Weekends are spent on their hobbies while the children look after themselves. Materially they have a lot, they live in a 5 bedroomed detached house and have holidays in Italy and France but are they really any worse off than Shannon and children like her. Your social class does not make you a good or bad parent that is entirely your own doing.

Julie, Fleet, UK

The key word is selfishness, and this is a thread running through all our society. This has been encouraged both directly and indirectly, and we are all capable of it; there are no class or geographical barriers. The kind of family life depicted is not confined to the North of England. The selfishness to which I refer and the kind of family relationships depicted in Melanie Reid's article is just as likely to occur in the South or the Midlands.

This selfishness can be manifested in a number of ways, and is not necessarily represented by any of Shannon Matthews' family.

Fathers who have no interest in any of their offspring; they had their fun - time to move on. Mothers who want babies but not their fathers, who they see as useless wastrels.

Everybody wants their enjoyment of life as a total priority, and often children, the consequence of enjoyment - get in the way.

Until people generally are given a definite purpose in life, for caring about others, this will remain.

Bob Ericson, Tewkesbury, Glos,

This is not about poverty - it is about the fact that many children from all walks of life are not valued. Why is it that in the UK children are seen as inconveniences? I've travelled widely all over the world and seen children living in real poverty but surrounded by a loving family who value their existence. I don't know what the answer is - the parents probably came from similar situations and do not know how to parent. It is a real tragedy that children born in a country where education is free, where no-one has to go hungry, suffer at the hands of their families and society.

CT, Nottingham, UK

I am a single mother (now 'middle class' - whatever that means), come from an under class, council house, unemployed parents cliche and do rather take exception to this article.

This level of neglect can be seen throughout our society at all levels; from the high class girls packed off to boarding school because mama cannot be bothered to give up her manicures, pedicures or tennis sessions; through the middle classes where the children let themselves into the family home and await the return of their often tired and stressed out parents - often alone for 3 - 4 hours before an adult arrives on the scene; and yes even in those poorer classes.

The only difference with Shannon and her story is that her mother is the poster girl for all of of the things that are wrong with our country.

Don't believe the hype, we as a nation, are guilty of horrendous neglect of our inconvenient, emotionally needy and expensive to rear children. Maybe all babies should come with instructions,

Vic Bate, Derby, Derbyshire

I don't agree Catherine. Preparing a child for a competitive life is the parent's responsibility. But what if the parents don't do their job? Regardless of the reason, the childs' development should not be hampered.

Adults who behave irresponsibly should not be pampered by the welfare state with free lunches we all have to pay deerly for. However, the child should be helped in order to become a valid adult.

I am not standing here for free housing/healthcare/pensions ect,  and I don't think that's the point of the article. Quite the opposite. What is missig here is something beyond material poverty and beyond the welfare state.

Rui, Lisbon, Portugal

I live in a small semi-rural area, which is classed as an inner city. It is within three miles of Shannon Matthew's abode.
The neglect from governments past and present is beyond comprehension, First we had the Tories smashing local industry, leaving nothing for the future and then labour offer us rhetoric and there investments in nothing. No money is coming into areas like North Kirklees, We get the problems and London is provided with the money for the solution.
We are tired people and have been kicked enough.

Mark, Yorkshire,

The problem is that we have this government that is not actually in touch with the very people they are trying to help.
The think they understand families like Shannon Matthews, but in reality, they have been to private schools, mostly graduated from Oxbridge and have NO IDEA what it's like.

But on the other hand, the people who are in this position (i.e. people not posting messages on a Sunday Times message board) do not understand the situation fully or how to get out of it.
What it needs is educated people in a similar position. Ones who have first hand evidence of the problems, but have an insight on the real issues and how to solve them.

It isn't just money. Families have money, but it doesn't stop the kids feeling worthless and lonely. I would rather be a child with nothing except a mother who loved me, cared for me and where I was the most important thing in their life, rather than having a flatscreen TV and PS3, but not being cared for or loved.

Family values are at a low

Jamie, Halifax, West Yorkshire

When familial chaos abunders we turn to the family courts to help us untangle the web of responsibility and rights. My children and I survived an abusive relationship no thanks to the CPS or the family courts who consistently let my children down!

N Morris, Glamorgan, UK

Can someone tell me what constitutes "middle class"?According to this story it's anyone who cares about their child. In the eyes of the governmenmt it's anyone earning nore than £25,000 p.a. - and why does everybody hate them? Instead of slating these people and following the usual labour policy of attaining equality by dragging down anything good why not address the sad realities of this story and tackle real poverty but without the mandatory slagging off of anyone trying to better themselves.



James, Chester,

But this has always been. Sadly, it is nothing new. The only thing new is the speed and intensity at which stories like this circulate. I am in no way justifying it, but rather than feeling guilt over the situation, and demanding that the government (yours or mine, or any other country's) "do something" maybe WE need to do something. Get involved with a counselling center for teens in crisis to try to help them avoid the triggers, and break the cycle, one person at a time. In the US we have an organization called Big Brother/Big Sisters, where you can "adopt" a child as a mentor, and give them hope and advice and practical information to help guide them out of the horrible situation they were born into. DO SOMETHING, don't just write about how terrible it is. The government can't fix it -only individuals can.

Mazzie, Maryland, USA

Shannon mathews is not the "new face of poverty", more likely the "neglected face of poverty". Her mothers face is the "dispised face of poverty", and the mothers boyfriend(s) are the are the "unreported faces of poverty".

It is very bad that the media moguls have skilfully shifted our attention from these facts with their clever rebranding exercise of little shannon, like some new improved comodity. Let us remember that the reason we are not aware of all the "faces of poverty" in the UK is because real poverty don't sell papers unless Bob Geldoff is involved.

I am extremely overjoyed that she was found alive. It's about time we had some good news. However, I get the feeling that the media is just gearing up for the next sorry slant on this story.

Christopher Icha, London, England

I agree with much of your analysis of the grotesque family? framework surrounding Shannon. However, please find another less well treden, less cliched angle to put on it. Yet again, from your podium, you berate the 'Midle Classes' as if we are a bunch of blinkered uncaring ignorants. Yes, to a varying extent we are relatively well educated, and most certainly educated enough to know very well what is going on in the broader scope of our society and to care very much that it is happening, as are many other of the labelled classes. Do not think that every time we look at our children we are not thinking "There but for the grace of god", I know I do, every day. Do you not think I would do something if I could to help the needy in society, and will certainly do when I retire. I am however working very hard both emotionally and financially to maintain some comfort for my family during these constraining times, as are most of the so called 'middle class'. We know it is all so fragile.

Gail, Aberdeen,

In response to Mike Homfray from Liverpool - I do not agree that the answer to this is all about money . The 'middle class' is not static. It is ever-increasing and it is volatile. It is made up of people who have aspirations, make sacrifices, value things other than the next cheap thrill and take responsibility for their lives and their actions. Many working class people have become middle class as a result of these values.
I find it ironic that the middle classes are constantly beaten over the head for not being working class, when, of course, the majority were, even if it was their grandparents! Surely this is something we should encourage not malign, 


Victoria, London, UK

I have seen adverts from a business offering to teach kids how to ride bikes, as their busy affluent parents do not have the time to help their child with this. And how about the latest credit card ads reassuring affluent parents that they don't need to worry about not being able to spend regular time with their children as they can just ,every now and then, buy them a really expensive present? Neglect happens when parents prioritise themselves over their children's needs. When children are pushed to the margins of their parent's busy lives. This is not a rich or poor issue.

Heather, Edinburgh,

"In a world such as Shannon’s, there are no certainties other than the fact that there are no certainties. "
Is there anything more irrelevant than hand-wringing cliches and wild generalisations?
Are you seriously suggesting that all middle class children are happy and all working class children are unhappy?
And what is you definition of middle class anyway? You seem to overlook the fact that most people are neither working nor upper class: resulting in a demographic far too large to put in one box; to make a verdict on parental aptitude or to judge the capacity to genuinely have concern for other classes.
Why not lament any lack of concern for the middle classes on the part of the working classes?

Ben, London, UK

I teach in a so called sink estate and have first hand experience of the misery some of these children experience. Children who don't want to go home from school; children who beg to come to school no matter how ill they are, as it provides the only stability in their lives. The common denominator is not wealth, or education but how they are treated by their parents. Too often these children are told all the sordid details of their parents' dysfunctional lives. They are treated like mini adults and are left to their own devices. Parents need to remember their responsibility to their children.

K. Jordan, Monmouthshire,

Tony is bang on with his assessment. The welfare state condones and encourages an underclass. The government is not helping these people but rather enabling their decline.

Self sufficiency, self respect, taking responsibility will continue to be alien concepts to this group as long as the government continues with these social policies. Let's be clear that there are groups of people who cannot work and do need society to take care of them, but there are far more able-bodied/minded people who elect not to work. Just as it has taken several generations to create this mess, it will take several more to return the balance. We need to change the expectation that benefits / housing / healthcare /pensions will be available to all - give these children the education and future they deserve.

Catherine, USA Ex-Pat,

I'd say that PARENTS need to do less nannying and more parenting. Popular childcare experts are nannies. Their style of dealing with children is detached (because it's easier to say goodbye that way, and doesn't upset the parents by allowing the kids to become too close to the help).

Crying it out, naughty steps, strict routines from birth - all of these are forms of detached parenting.

Babies need 24 hour attention at the drop of a hat until at least 9 months. Parents need to be ready to give it, and continue to give it at an appropriate level, until they grow up. "getting your life back" shouldn't figure. Your life should have changed, inexorably and completely, the moment you became a parent.


Niki, Burton on Trent, UK

While it is true that families in the UK do live in a state of poverty which is compounded by the mentality of selfish lazy parents, it is an issue which needs far more discussion than this accuastory, patronising, smug article. I did not expect this from the Times. The tone of this piece makes me cringe.

Jessica, Manchester,

Stereotype or not, Dewsbury has given us a glimpse of a slice of society we would rather not see. I really don't think it's possible to legislate against the causes. It's a downward spiral; bad parenting begets bad parenting. Unfortunately, a form of reverse snobbery has evolved where education and ambition are frowned upon and the cycle continues.

I've no doubt deprived areas have their share of devoted parents and the middle-classes have their quota of flawed mothers and fathers, but this Argos generation seems unable to teach their kids right from wrong because they themselves are no kind of role models to start with.

Ending with 'the privileged classes go back to pampering our own beloved offspring' leaves a nasty taste. Surely you don't need money to pamper your kids. Love will very often suffice and people who have made a success of their lives don't have a monopoly on love.

I don't think you can pin this on any government - people are responsible for their own choices.

Jonny W, Herts, UK

I read this article with a growing anger about the prejudices it showed.
My unmarried, unemployed step daughter has 5 children from 2 fathers. In all the years I have known her I have never met either of the fathers. She lives in a small seaside community which serves as a spill-over estate to one of the big cities. She has few friends and little money yet her children are well cared for in the fullest sense of the term.
As a fully paid up member of the middle classes I work along side businessmen and women with young children. In some cases, the other parent is at home or there is a qualified nanny who cares for the children over many years. In many cases, however, the children are left in the care of a succession of unqualified carers so that their parents can pursue their careers at the expense of their relationship with her children. In what way is the emotional care of their children better than the care that my step daughter's children enjoy?

Joanna, Windsor, UK

We could all give our childen more time and patience. THanks for the reminder!

Jamie, Manchester, UK

Welcome to the real world Melanie Reid.

This is not new, it's just real life, firmly detached from your ivory tower. Life in the UK is dark, dangerous, uncaring, selfish, poor, uneducated.

You manage to sound both uncaring and condescending at the same time.

A pointless piece.


David, St Albans, UK

For the past 50 years the state has consistently transfered the Christian concept of open-mindness (judge not, ) into the creation of a moral vacuum, which for the state is a willful neglect of its prime purpose - to maintain order.

As individuals we should accept our common, flawed humanity (the real point of not judging others) - and to keep this in check we need strong moral boundaries provided either by religion (consent) or the state (coercion). Sadly the absence of adulthood is more prevalent in our country's moral leadership than in Dewbury.

Benjamin, Gloucester,

People need to re-learn what was once accepted wisdom. Unplanned children to parents who have no committment to each other results in wholesale misery, regardless of the amount of money sploshing around.

It is not fashionable to say these things and it would not be easy to achieve, but it is the only hope.

And on this subject there is an absolute void from the political class - says everything you need to know. When will a real opposition to the current status quo emerge to tackle this and other fundamental issues?

Jon Burgess, Douglas, Isle of Man

Reading the posts, it is depressing once again (as so often when this type of article appears) to read the views of Middle England relating to the welfare state and those dependent upon it. Can anybody tell me how why those more fortunate in life should feel that the pittance doled out to 'chaotic' families is the cause of their problems ? Sounds more like the greedy, self-interested middle classes trying to hold on to their cash to me,

andy edgar, london, uk

Sophie - London

The benefits that single others receive were all in place under the Tories, and in some ways (e.g. automatic right to housing) things were easier under the Tories than they are now. To say this is a New Labour problem is a neat soundbite, but the industrial vandalism perpetrated by Mrs Thatcher had a massive part to play too, and the benefit cuture thrived under the Tories despite what the Rose-tinted spetacles now show you.

In truth it is not a party-political problem, but one we all choose to ignore as long is it is 'ghettoised' to large Council estates.

Simon

Simon, Birkenhead,

Mike Homfray (", it is about money ") is wrong - a lack of money is not the cause, it is a symptom of the lack of personal responsibility that so many people take, the other symptoms of which are so plain to see here. And no, it is not unique to the sink estates, just as it is not wholly absent from the leafy suburbs. It is a state of mind of certain people that makes all the government's efforts at eliminating poverty by throwing money at it utterly futile, and that fosters a deep sense of unfairness among those people, both rich and poor, who have chosen work and responsibility as their path through life.

Steve, Altrincham,

Do you really think this is exclusive to deprived areas?.
As far as I understand, there are broken families on every social class. Divorced parents, alcohol and narcotics abuse (call it anti-depressants if you like) are commonplace on upper and middle-class families too. Also I don't think there's anybody to ask you how school day was when you are at boarding school.
Stop being so classist, please.


Did, Bristol,

Dewsbury was a thriving little textile town with an excellent borough council and a sense of civic pride-then the rot set in. Decades of neglect by Kirklees Council have reduced the town centre to a host of derelict shops,takeaways, pound and charity shops. Every thing else has closed or is leaving. We have a big immigrant population who are increasingly insular.Drugs are rife. Anyone relying on unskilled manual labour for work might as well give up now. Expectations and wages are low and, when you have nothing in your life drugs,sex and alcohol are a way of eleviating the tedium of your existance. Bring in decently paid jobs, give people a chance to change their life, to see a way out and a better future.
Give people something to strive for.Dewsbury folk aren't bad people, the solidarity and endeavour they have shown during Shannon's disappearance proves that. The government knows the price of everything but the value of nothing, especially their own working class.

June Gill, Dewsbury, West Yorks

And the solution is?,  Listing problems is the easy part almost anyone can do that.

Lisences to have children?
Compulsary depot contraception?
Sterilisation?
Throw more money at unemployment allowance / child benefit?

I'm putting off having children as I am unable to support them along with myself; as such I'm not particularly interested in supporting others that have had them without thinking about the consequences.

Richard, London, England

Richard from Epsom has hit the nail on the head. Having grown up in one of these families I can say that there is no solution that society will find palatable but here it is; these people, my parent too, are incapable of behaving like adults and should not have or keep their children. Reponsibility for their actions has been handed over to care givers and services which continually pick up the pieces and keep these families together. I asked my social worker, when I was nine, if she would take me away and put me up for adoption. She wouldn't. I love my family but I knew that it would never change. It took 15 years as an adult to build from nothing the life I should have had. Now I am a succesful adult. However one of my brothers is emotionally wrecked, one is in prison and the other is a homeless ex-convict and drug-addict. Keeping these families together and trying to artificially maintain a family that cannot survive on its own is destroying far more children than it saves.

Paul, London, UK

What are you so worked up about Melanie? Are you frustrated that virtually nobody but middle-class people will read this piece? There are many thorny problems highlighted by this tragedy but using it to pose as a scourge of the middle-classes without offering any sensible ways to improve the situation seems like flailing at the wrong target.

Neil, Southampton, England

This is the best article I have read about the 'emotional poverty' children in the UK are faced with.

1 in 3 children from poorer backgrounds do not believe their father is part of their immediate family (if at all). 1 in 4 of all families.

Is there a way back from wholly destructive path we are leading our children down? Possibly but the odds are lengthening as more and more children are sucked into the cycle of dysfunctional families.

Together or apart, both natural parents must be encouraged and promoted in sharing the care and financial responsibility of their children.

Shared Parenting is the answer in the UNICEF countries that top the children happiness tables. Where 'both' parents together or apart are expected to be 'equally' part of the lives of their children.

Here in the UK we are bottom with our 30 years out of date policies on child care and financial responsibility.


Jeff, Surrey,

I have visited the town of Dewsbury on many occasions and have also worked there for many years in the past. Melanie's article implies that 'all' working class people in this area are dysfunctional and bring up their children in the same way as Shannon Matthews family. What utter nonesense! I wonder if she has ever visited Dewsbury - and if so, how much time did she spend there?? Admittedly, Dewsbury isn't the prettiest place in the world to live - it is, afterall, an ex-mill town, which is mostly a working class community. But lets not forget, certain boroughs of London are also experiencing the same problem with dysfunctional families struggling to bring up their children.

I wonder how many middle-class people in London like Melanie, go about their daily lives, totally oblivious to the poverty which is all around them in their own city? You don't need to come up to northern england looking for child poverty and deprivation - you've got plenty on your own doorstep.

warren, leeds,

J Shepherd - Leicester - you say there is 'no truth to these sweeping generalisations', well go and spend some time around Saffron Lane, Eyers Monsell or Braunstone. There is a whole parallel existence on these estates. What you are reading about is normal for these poeple, a life fuelled by the state, absent fathers, kids with absolutley no aspirations to climb out of the cycle started generations ago. Crime, drug and alcohol dependency are a fact of life but often not seen as detrimental just merely part of the daily routine to get by. Until you change the role models you have no chance of changing the offspring and how is that ever going happen? We just have to accept that great swathes of our population will remain in this whole cycle whilst there is a relative comfort zone for doing so i.e. the welfare state.



Tony, Midlands,

But it is about money. Do you seriously think these situations would occur otherwise? trying to pretend that there is no link between this way of life and financial security is nonsense. If that's not the case, why are there no similar stories from pleasant middle class areas?

Mike Homfray, Liverpool,

in some areas, the state needs to do more nannying and not less. whether parenting or providing some public service in exchange for welfare, people must be made to take responsibility and contribute. unfortunately, anything left to social workers will be worse than useless.

being a good parent is demanding for anyone, even the smug middle classes. what we lack as a country is a devotion to duty and a preparedness to tolerate (inconvenience, not excuses). and we could all do with a little guidance beyond the application of the naughty step.

jem, london, uk

If anyone were to do a thorough study they'd find that 'neglect' is far more pervasive than one might hope. Where are the interfering busybodies we all need now and then to shock us out of our complacency?

Nora, London, UK

I am a single mother who lives in a Socio-Economically Deprived area. I work, consider myself fairly well educated.
I had my daughter at 20 and I am proud of what I have achieved. My daughter is extremely loved,well spoken, bright, thoughtful .If I drink it is a glass of red in company and have never touched drugs. My daughters father also works and sees our daughter 3 times a week .I have been a single mother for a number of years and I believe, despite constant stigmatism and narrow minded narratives such as this column, children often benefit from having 2 parents that are happy apart rather than miserable together!
Despite my efforts I still count as a poverty statistic but I deny my daughter lives in " low-level psychological chaos "
If I were to generalise I would say it is endemic of the Middle classes to tie poverty and neglect into a neat bundle the truth is there are many unfit middle class parents neglect Is not a class issue. Credit and blame where both are due please!

Sarah, Gloucester,

Melanie your words have echoed my thoughts and concerns from day one- for those who are cocooned in the comforts of not having seen poverty I fear have no concerns-it has saddened me as it shows another world which must be addressed by those who have the ability to change-

Doug Oliver, Sussex, UK

I'm sure if they had the money, then the poor parents would send their kids away to boarding school just like the rich parents! Maybe that's the answer.

Miss Dee, Tayside, Scotland

At last someone "chatters"some sense.Poverty is not a lack of money in this country and the all the silly targets and huge wasted expenditure is mearly a fig leaf for politicians.
Stop throwing money at this. The poor have always been with us( I am still one of them) but with a world of benifits and every entertainment need provided they look only to consume.When you lack incentive and telly booze and fags come care of the state you evolve the society from hell.
When I grew up in a council house fifty odd years ago you had to look outward.One had to join the world for the mass media did not bring it to you. The only way to immitate this now is to introduce disipline into impoverished lives.No welfare without some "community " work and no council house unles you dig the bloody garden.
Draw out people to co-operate with society rather than pay them to hide from it.Children learn by example and untill they are shown one the cycle of child " poverty " will contiue.

robert everitt, wolverhampton,

The poverty descirbed here is absolutley apparent - but it is much more widely spread than the smug middle class mght choose to believe. Emotional poverty isn't about a failure of government - although all recent governments must accept their part in accelerating social breakdown. It has come about because as a society we have chosen over a very extended period to abdicate our familial and communal responsibilities to faceless authorities. We make jokes about the nanny state - but this is one of the more awful consequences. And if anybody thinks this is confined to certain classes or socio-economic groups then ask yourselves this - do you know where yoru children were all yesterday or the day before. It is all to easy to say it's a problem of sink estates. We have come to equalte licence with liberalism across the spectrum. We all need to take a good look at ourselves



Tim, Kingston,

It is very patronising to assume to know what people are thinking and then to criticise it.

Most intelligent people, of whatever class, are only too well aware that "low-level psychological chaos" and parents "in a state of permanent volatility" (beautifully incisive descriptions) damage young children much more than the material poverty found in this country.

The solution must surely be a cultural one. That requires education.Since bringing up children is the most important thing that people do in their lives it s

Hey Angiefan
whats the latest on Baby P.
what is your government doing to the murdering parents
i mean he mom who surfed for porn and smoked while her husband broke a one yr old baby's back and made him a plaything for the dog?
is your government preparing to give the parents a soft landing?ie putting them in a secure facility and preparing to change their identities when they get out? Costn u guys thousands in tax?

rewarding crime,in the name of political correctness.

or is your govt saying that if he had grown he would be a feral yob,like the ones roaming the streets?
we read Angie,UK is going to the dogs
what comes around goes around
the colonizers have now become the colonized,

mobile phone jacking in britain costs insurance coy 390million pounds
Halifax press release
Mobile phone theft costs UK £390 million a year*
Tuesday 16th May 2006
Mobile phone theft costs UK £390 million a year*

One mobile phone stolen every 12 seconds**


Over 2 million mobile phones are stolen every year


Lancaster was the UK’s mobile phone theft hotspot in 2005***
Mobile phone thieves are costing the UK £390 million each year according to new figures issued by Halifax Home Insurance. Incidents of the crime are happening so frequently that one mobile phone is stolen every twelve* seconds in the UK. There are currently over 37 million mobile phone owners in the UK** and over two million mobile phones are stolen annually.

According to the leading insurer’s data Lancaster was Britain’s mobile phone theft hotspot in 2005. In close second came Wirral & Chester then Coventry. Ipswich, High Wycombe and Oxford were the safest places for mobile phone owners.

The most expensive phones were stolen in the Essex towns of Romford & Illford where the average claim amounted to around £300.

With an increase in high profile “phone-jacking” cases - where thieves are snatching phones right from their victims' grasp as they walk down the street - Halifax Home Insurance recommends a number of simple safety measures (see below) such as keeping phones out of sight (especially when not in use) and avoiding using mobile phones when you’re out on the street after dark.

Halifax Home Insurance also warns that women should be especially aware. The most recent British Crime Survey** figures on mobile phone theft showed that women are more likely than men to have their mobiles stolen (7.6% and 6.4% respectively).

Vicky Emmott, Halifax Home Insurance, comments: “Mobile phones are constantly getting lighter and more compact which makes them easier for opportunistic thieves to swipe. Phone users should avoid ‘walking and talking’ and keep their mobiles out of sight whenever possible.”

Vicky continued: “New technology means that many of us use phones for more than just calls and text messaging. Mobile owners should make sure that all contact numbers, diary entries, pictures, down-loads and ring-tones are backed-up and saved elsewhere if they don’t want to risk losing them completely.”

Halifax Home Insurance also advises anyone considering separate mobile phone insurance to check the terms of their home policy with their insurer first, or risk paying out twice. A number of insurance providers - including Halifax - already cover mobile phones against

PLEASE KEEP YOUR PHONES SAFE WHEN YOU R IN BRITAIN, TILL YOU GET TO NIGERIA WHEN YOU CAN USE IT FREELY

@angiefan
cant u answer or are u finding more pics to post?

@angiefan
Abuse ? i called you a cretin, an idiot and a lunatic . Candidly I need to apologise to cretins, idiots and lunatics all over the world because you are way beneath them in every way . you are a patent sociopath and Britain will be doing well to  quickly lock you up in Tower of London and hack your head off at Christmas to show tourists how it used to be done , you bastard 

To recap :
you are posting ten year old pictures !! most of  those buildings , situations and environmental conditions don't exist anymore. YOUR PHOTOGRAPHERS HAVE DUPED YOU IDIOT  !!
People, why am I arguing with a person with mad cow disease ? It's hopeless to argue with a lunatic .

I will also be getting more pics  asshole

@Ehie

Don't worry about the Baby P case. Justice is currently being served with the parents set to spend the rest of their lives in jail. How about those poor kiddies in Akwa Ibom? And what about the pastor who readily confessed to killing loads of innocent children accused of being witches? Has he being charged with his crimes and brought to court yet? Or is he still out there killing innocent children in the name of God?

@angiefan
Justice indeed,u'd be lucky if they get 5 years,and hell what justice when they cant even be named,because of their human rights.

As for deathrow cases,u could check out Thailand., Singapore and China.and Texas
SURE its worse out there.

typical british behavior vulgar mouthed drunks,slutty and overweight, no class act at all