Soul & Spirit - Whats the difference?

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Date: September 07, 2008, 10:58 PM
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Nairaland Forum  |  General Discussion  |  Religion (Moderator: mukina2)  |  Soul & Spirit - Whats the difference?
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olabowale (m)
Re: Soul & Spirit - Whats the difference?
« #32 on: June 18, 2008, 02:05 PM »

@Pastor AIO:
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Sir, I do not quite understand your fear of people claiming trinity, but this argument has nothing to do with Trinity and I wasn't going to go there so let us proceed in truth and integrity and not twist arguments for fear of what conclusion it might lead to.  This is a very important point because it is the cause of so many errors.  One cannot follow an argument with integrity when he already has the conclusion in his mind.  He will try to bend the argument in order to make it get to the conclusion.  The proper way to proceed is to just follow the argument to wherever it leads.

My esteemed brother, I like your style. I have no fear of anyone, but God Almighty, alone. I pray it remains that way. And I was not going to talk about trinity, since I aluded to discouraging the would be proponent not to even try to use my argument, which I left somewhat inconclusive, to be used to proof it. And we need to bare in mind that it is not in all cases that a conclusion is already formed that integrity is thrown away, in order to argue for what is obvious. If a point is clear, and it is stated as such, whereby it becomes the focus of debates, one needs to be sincere in speech for the discussion to be a good debate. One is important in argument is truth about a subject. One should present the truth, sincerely and with honesty as much as one knows it. But the truth is the truth. Absolute truth is absolute. there is no other way to express it.


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|This reminds me of the argument of an old medieval christian Theologian.  He was trying to demonstrate the mercy of God and how well God thinks of us.  He say for example that wherever Human beings have raised towns and set up habitation that God is so merciful that he sends them a source of fresh water in the form of a river or a lake.  How ridiculous!  Is it not in fact the case that wherever there is a source of fresh water that human beings will go and settle there.  The water is there before the humans not vice versa.  But that is what happens when you have a conclusion even before you started pursuing an argument.  

But this argument about water and human settlement will actually be not always the norm. For right here in the USA, we have a city call Las Vegas, without any water source at all. Yet, in the middle of the desert, is where this city of several millions is situated. All the water that they use in this city, is not from a source that was indigenous to it. Well, you don't want meto tell you about many more cities that are in desert now? But in all your argument, you started with Flesh and Spirit, but I did not see where you spoke about Flesh and Nafs, just as boldly. What you have done was exactly what i said before; Spirit and amina/Naf are the same. You can not really have one without the other. It is the Spirit/Soul that its dominating in the Spiritual way, whreby it is the extension part of it, Nafs that is the anima of man.
kola oloye (m)
Re: Soul & Spirit - Whats the difference?
« #33 on: June 18, 2008, 02:06 PM »

Quote from: Pastor AIO on June 18, 2008, 01:57 PM
I agree that they are inseparable in an individual. But this includes the body also. I've just realised something. What we are arguing is not whether they are separate entities, but rather the distinction lies in their function. There is a yoruba saying: ise meta ni omo ori odo n se. A pestle has three function. It is a pounder for making pounded yam. It is a barricade for securing the door. and it is a grinder for grinding vegetables. Do these 3 functions make it three separate objects? No. So when people complain that their Ori is not good they are told that it is the same Ori that they picked from the same place as everybody else. Yet the manifestation of it differs in each individual. That manifestation called Iwa which can be translated as character and also state of being.

Ise meta ni omori odo nse
A pestle can be applied to 3 tasks
Won a f'ori re gun'yan
The head is used to pound yam
Won a f'idi re gun elu
It's base can be used to grind herbs
Won a fi agbedemeji re ti ilekun dain dain dain
It's middle part can be used to barricade the doors firmly
Thus was declared to Oriseku (the non-starter, or the defective ori) child of Ogun
Thus was declared to Ilemere (the short-lived) child of Ija
Thus was declared to Afuwape (the fulfilled destiny) child of Agbonmiregun
They went to the home of Ajalamopin to each pick themselves an Ori (destiny)
They were prescribed Ebo.
Only Afuwape tarried to comply.
Lament: "If I had known where successful people choose their Ori (destinies) that is where I would have gone to pick mine.
If I'D known where Afuwape choose his destiny from that is where I would have gone to choose mine."
Response: All Ori (destiny) is chosen at the same place, yet they unfold differently for different individuals.

Pastor! na wah o
Pastor AIO
Re: Soul & Spirit - Whats the difference?
« #34 on: June 18, 2008, 02:08 PM »

Quote from: olabowale on June 18, 2008, 11:46 AM
But it is the anima that is the inner person. The one that is the personality of the person. The body houses it. It is the physical that let us know, as the symptom of the anima that is inside, which can not be seen with the naked eye. A person who gets old, though the body is breaking apart, rather shows sign of age, will still have the same personality/anima. But if his anima is unattractive as obnoxious, rude, etc, though he may projects it it still will not make him bodily unacttractive or rude to the sight, if he is a handsome person, physically.

An unattractive personality does not translate to an 'unattractive body' in that sense because the attractiveness of the body is just a matter of taste.  But whatever occurs in the anima will have a correspondence in the body, human aesthetic judgements like pretty or ugly are not the issue.  Contained in the Anima is the entire process from birth to old age.  Growing old is not a process divorced from the Anima.  Growth and decay are expressions of Anima.
olabowale (m)
Re: Soul & Spirit - Whats the difference?
« #35 on: June 18, 2008, 03:02 PM »

@Pastor:
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When the Imam came he explained, not from the Koran but from someone who he called the eminent commentator on koran and hadith.  I can't recall the name, it was a long arabic name.  He said that Nafs is what drives the body, I asked,"do you mean the characteristics?" he inclined his head left and right in a comme ci comme ca way and said sort off.  He then said Ruuh was the fuel of the body.  Like a machine.  You have a car, the body, the driver is the Nafs and the fuel inside is the Ruuh.  I suggested Ruuh was breath and he responded that what did I mean by breath.  I said breath.  He said well people understand different things and have different connotations from breath so he needed to know what I meant.  In other words that was left unanswered.  Anyway he said that the engine can't run without fuel and so it is with the body without ruuh.

Not everything about Islam is in the AlQur'an, in full details. The explainer of this Noble Book, is the Prophet (AS). God sent the Book and sent the explainer with it. He was waiting already as a matured man for it. No one explains the AlQur'an unless their own fountain of explanation is the prophet, the source among mankind. And when you said to the Imam, nafs as the characteristics, a single word. He did not want to give you a yes, because it is more than characteristics, alone. And what you meant, anyhow by characteristics is only your own knowledge. He would give you a ton of information about nafs, if it was time permissible for both of you. But you could have said of Ruuh as breath or Spirit of life. He would have said yes, rather than when you said breath alone. And I will shock you here and now; when God said He breath His Spirit to Adam, it should not be considered as when a person breath into a person to ressucitate him. God is Holier than that. he has power of command. He says that he comands Adam to Be, so Adam was!

The reason that I even responded to this thread is when the people began to say that human is made of three elements; each separate. And in honesty, they did not say each is coequal. But they brought the three as separate making up the human a a means of fostering their agenda. It is then that I thought it is best that i let them know, by Allah's permission that Ruuh and Nafs are the same. And truly man is a mixture of its seen (physical form;body) and the Unseen (the unformed or without shape form; Nafs/Ruuh).


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Another very interesting thing he said was that when the embryo is formed in the womb, after 4months God then sends the Ruuh into the body and that is when the foetus becomes a living soul.  4 months!, I thought, but I did not say anything.

Am sure you are familar with the term first trimester in pregnancy? 4 months is after that, whereby any one who performs an abortion of that feotus, the right to lifers always say that its like killing the person. Moreover its very complicated at this time than if the abortion is done much earlier, in the pregnancy. Disclaimer: I am not advocating any one performing abortion. I am just expalining the feotal condition, with before and when/after the Ruuh is brought into the womb.


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To conclude he advised me that there are more central things to Isla.m than Nafs and Ruuh and told me about the 5 pillars.  He said that the important thing was to be aware that God is One and to worship this One God.  Nafs and Ruuh though important are incidental to the main point.

His advice is very sound. What is the benefit of all of the knowledge, if you reject the central theme that the whole knowledge is much much secondary to? Your superior knowledge can not mean anything in the day of Judgement, if the belief in One god is not sound and correct. Yet the least knowledgeable and weak person who belief in One god in a very sound and correct way, will receive mercy of god and be entered into His Garden.


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I find that hard to accept because I cannot think of anything more important than understanding oneself and the motivations that drive one, especially if they are capable of driving you either to paradise or hell.

But if you have all the knowledge and do not fear the punishment of God which He will carry out by the fire of hell, and at the same time long and hope for His mercy  and forgiveness by which He will show by ransoming one with a place in paradise, then will lack of understanding oneself and the motivations that drives one be an excuse with with God, if one is thrown in Fire and will it be also a reason to say one deserve the rewards in paradise if one ends up in it? Neither position can be attached to what you need to know first before Understanding God and the your obligations to Him. God says that He did not creat us except to worship Him. This is the purpose of life. It is the Core single purpose. The verse following this statement from God, is followed by His saying that all sustenance he has provided and it is up to him alone.



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An unattractive personality does not translate to an 'unattractive body' in that sense because the attractiveness of the body is just a matter of taste.  But whatever occurs in the anima will have a correspondence in the body, human aesthetic judgements like pretty or ugly are not the issue.  Contained in the Anima is the entire process from birth to old age.  Growing old is not a process divorced from the Anima.  Growth and decay are expressions of Anima. 

Am sure that you have heard that Prophet Joseph was very pretty. His physical beauty was what attracted the wife of his master to want to have sex with him. It was his pure Ruuh/Nafs that stopped him from going for it.

I pray that what we say to each other will benefit us. I pray that God forgives us our misdeeds and bad speech. I pray that God softens our hearts to receive guidance from Him. I pray that He has mercy on us and forgives us our sins.
Pastor AIO
Re: Soul & Spirit - Whats the difference?
« #36 on: June 19, 2008, 10:42 AM »

Quote from: olabowale on June 18, 2008, 02:05 PM

But this argument about water and human settlement will actually be not always the norm. For right here in the USA, we have a city call Las Vegas, without any water source at all. Yet, in the middle of the desert, is where this city of several millions is situated. All the water that they use in this city, is not from a source that was indigenous to it.

In Las Vegas, thanks to modern technology they have found a way to bring the water to the desert.  Trust me, humans cannot settle anywhere where there is no access to fresh water.  God did not miraculously supply las vegas with water.  Humans transported the water there.  In the past there have been cities in the desert but they have all either been situated on an oasis or an underground stream flowed close enough to the surface for them to dig a well and access it. 

This is totally off the topic, I know, but I'm feeling in a petty mood today.
olabowale (m)
Re: Soul & Spirit - Whats the difference?
« #37 on: June 19, 2008, 02:55 PM »

@Pastor AIO: OKare. Gbere. Omo Oduduwa. I have a throw back on the Alawiye and the Awo Rerin era.

Nigeria should copy from the west in what the west have done in goodness.
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