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Afam (m)
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@4 Play, @AFAM
I asked u earlier whether u concluded that Isreal has no obligations as per 1948 borders to which u replied that is not your conclusion.Now u say that it is I replied that I do not arrive at conclusions the way you do because the issue of Israel withdrawing to pre 1948 borders was not in the equation even though you have failed to see that till today. You don't lead me in discussions, you don't decide what I must comment on. Your inability to understand a statement should not be a reason to waste everyone's time. Was there a Palestinian state from which Israel seized land before 1967 to which it has an obligation to return the land.Have u ever read RESOLUTION 242 passed in the immediate aftermath of the 1967 war?It does not place a unilateral obligation on Isreal to withdraw from occupied lands but to withdraw within the context of a comprehensive peace agreement with its neighbours. Resolutions? Do you know the number of UN resolutions that Israel has ignored till date simply because the UN backs Israel? Do you know how many resolutions that the US has vetoed when it concerns Israel? As someone that claims to understand international law you should understand the inticacies of what transpires in the global arena. One good thing about bringing u to task about your statements is that u are backing away from some of your wilder statements about the conflict and conducting a more reasoned discourse.I am dedicating the time I should use for studying to make u justify your postings and it seems to be paying off
Better face your studies so you don't lose on both ends. If we were doing a face to face conversation I would have said bye bye to you a long time ago based on the level of reasoning you display. I take time to reply for the benefit of others that may not see through your wrong and confused statements. make no mistake about it, I state my position on anything I bother to discuss and in doing so you will not see lies because I discuss only issues I understand and when asked about something I don't know I make it clear that I do not know it, it is not a crime not to know something and infact it is 100% better for you not to know something than for you to claim you know what you know nothing about. I have been waiting in vain to read about your acknowledgements of the wrong statements you have made, instead you keep moving from one wrong statement to another. |
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4 Play (m)
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Afam (m) Lagos, Nigeria Posts: 527 Offline Re: Israel vs Hezbollah/Lebanon « #1640 on: December 04, 2006, 01:58 PM » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No, that is not my conclusion, do you imagine I arrive at conclusions the way you do? @AfamThis was your reply to my question about whether u concluded that Isreal has no obligations as per 1948.
Now u have spun it it into this.@4 Play,
I replied that I do not arrive at conclusions the way you do because the issue of Israel withdrawing to pre 1948 borders was not in the equation even though you have failed to see that till today. You are trying to spin your way out of your web of dishonesty .You removed the first 6 words of your statement to alter the essence of your reply |
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Afam (m)
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I believe you are dangerously unintelligent and incapable of reasoning like a human being.
It is really a shame that your level of understanding is this low.
Maybe I need to use your native language to communicate when addressing you.
On Dec 4, I posted a reply telling you that I do not arrive at conclusions the way you do.
On Dec 7, I went a step further to tell you why I stated what I stated on Dec 4.
The first was a statement in response to your twisting issues.
The second was about the why.
I can boldly state that I am hardly ever wrong in positions that I take because I only discuss issues I understand, I own up to things I don't know without thinking twice and I do not allow unnecessary sentiments or emotions becloud my sense of reasoning.
Till the day you die, you can never associate these simple qualities with yourself because you are just a pig and lying thing.
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Olorididan (m)
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HEZBOLLAH AND ITS ARAB BACKERS ARE JUST ABOUT TO ACHIEVE WHAT THEY SET OUT TO WHEN THEY STARTED THIS EPISODE!
THE OVERTHROW OF THE "LEBANESE" GOVERNMENT AS WE KNOW
AND ITS REPLACEMENT WITH A HEZBOLLAH LED THEOCRACY FULLY BACKED BY IRAN
THE STREET OF BEIRUT ARE STILL FULL AND SINIORA'S TIME HAS COME
THE RADICALISATION OF THE TWO CORE ARAB ENTITIES CLOSEST TO ISRAEL (PALESTININAN WITH HAMAS & LEBANESE WITH HEZBOLLAH) WILL BE COMPLETE
AND THE STAGE WILL BE SET FOR THE NEXT EPISODE
HERE THE ARABS WILL NOT INVITE ISRAEL TO WAGE WAR ON THEIR OWN COUNTRIES
THEY WILL (AND HAVE SO DONE INCREMENTALLY) WAGE THE WAR ON ISRAELI TURF (OR AS CLOSE TO IT AS POSSIBLE)
USING THE TWO WEAKEST AND MOST EXPENDABLE PEOPLES IN THE MIDDLE EAST
THE PALESTINIANS AND THE LEBANESE !
FOR YEARS THE ARABS HAVE DONE THIS
USED THEIR WEAKEST SIBLINGS TO FIGHT AN "ENEMY" THEY CANNOT
THIS IS HOW MUCH HATRED EXISTS
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Afam (m)
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@Olorididan, USING THE TWO WEAKEST AND MOST EXPENDABLE PEOPLES IN THE MIDDLE EAST
THE PALESTINIANS AND THE LEBANESE ! The Palestines and Lebanese are not the weakest and most expendable people in the middle east, they are only reacting to real and/or perceived injustices being metted out to them. We should praise Hezbollah for wanting to overthrow the western backed government using democractic means by not taking to violence to do so. Even Christains have sided the hezbollah in this regard (as reported on CNN, I saw some of the christain leaders saying they stand by the Hezbollah on this) because they all want a government that will protect the interest of the people of Lebanon and not a government that protects the interest of the West that backs it. Every nation should try to have leaders that will protect their interests not the interest of foreigners and outside powers. Again, in any free and fair election, the majority should have their way while the minority their say, abi that is democracy for you. By the time the dust is settled in the Middle East, the US that is trying to spread democracy will realise that probably only Kuwait will be the only country in the Middle East that will be friendly to it as Saudi Arabia (its most important "friend") under any democracy will not want to deal with them. The Saudi Ambassador to the States just resigned and the Saudis have threatened to back the Sunnis in the Iraq war. Interesting scenarios continue to unfold as the world tries to come to terms with the results of ill motivated and illegal invasion of Iraq. So, on Hezbollah, people should appreciate their using democractic and civil means to bring down a government, afterall the world supported Georgia and similar demonstrations that toppled governments without any bloodshed. Maybe its time for the US to understand that it cannot export its way of life to other nations as the results may be totally unexpected and against its overall objectives. |
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Mariory (m)
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So the rocket fire into Isreal continues despite a truce which the militants seem to think only applies to Isreal. Info on last paragraph. We are seeing it now continuing to happen. When the Isrealis wake up and retaliate, I want these reminders to be here. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061214/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestiniansEarlier Thursday, Palestinian militants fired a rocket into Israel from Gaza despite a truce, the Israeli military said. The rocket caused no casualties and no one took responsibility. |
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Mariory (m)
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"We did not join this movement to become ministers but rather to become martyrs." - Ismail Haniya, Palestinian Prime Minister. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6183409.stmI guess the quote above goes to show the true position of these Arabs. If the only reason why they are in politics is to kill the Jews, one will not be too far off to assume their aim of claiming sole right to a land that isn't theirs historically, is for the same purpose. These guys do not believe in peace for Isreal and that is why Ahmedinajad couldn't hold his evil thoughts in. Isreal has my full support to do whatever they have to do to stay alive. |
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4 Play (m)
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So, on Hezbollah, people should appreciate their using democractic and civil means to bring down a government, afterall the world supported Georgia and similar demonstrations that toppled governments without any bloodshed.
Like Hezbollah has any choice other than to use democratic and civil means.Hezbollah can't reasonably expect to attain power in present day Lebanon if they were to resort to violence.They can either have a role in Govt through peaceful means or have no role at all if the country were to be plunged back to civil war.The world has no cause to show appreciation to Hezbollah for doing something that is ultimately in their interests.The Lebanese people will not tolerate a resort to violence to effect a change of Govt. Also the parrallels u drew to places like Georgia are irrelevant.In Georgia for instance,there was an attempt to overthrow a Govt led by Shervadnaze,who had been in power since 1995 and attempted to rig the elections in 2003 to extend his stay in power.In Lebanon, u have a democratically elected Govt which has been in power only since last year. You seem to imply that the Lebanese Govt is a foreign lackey whereas the Hezbollah led oppostion somehow is a voice of the masses.What nonsense. The opponents of the Govt are just as beholden to foreign nations(Iran and Syria) as the Govt. The anti Govt demonstrations were partly prompted by the Govt's support for investigations into Syria's involvement in Hariri's murder and by a strange coincidence those protesting against the Govt are part of a pro-Syria coaltion. The Govt of Lebanon was elected by a majority of the people of Lebanon only last year.If Hezbollah wants to overthrow the Lebanese people's choice, it has no option but to enlist the support of a majority of Lebanese people.Nobody is denying them a right to have their say ,a right which they are fully exercising.However any grab of power must have popular support. Also Hezbollah cannot function in a democratic setting if they continue to remain an armed force.This is incompatible with democratic principles.Before the recent conflict with Isreal ,no one could venture into Hezbolah controlled South Lebanon to campaign politically unless they were members of Hezbollah.Shia critics regularly complain of intimidation by Hezbolah militia men.No other party in Lebanon still maintains armed militias. No party should participate in a democracy with campaign leaflets in one hand and an AK-47 in the other |
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Afam (m)
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Also the parrallels u drew to places like Georgia are irrelevant.In Georgia for instance,there was an attempt to overthrow a Govt led by Shervadnaze,who had been in power since 1995 and attempted to rig the elections in 2003 to extend his stay in power.In Lebanon, u have a democratically elected Govt which has been in power only since last year. So, the lenght of time a government has been in power should be a major factor in determining the correctness or otherwise for a call for change in governmnet. Hope you will remember to apply this same interesting principle in Palestine as Abbas is calling for an early election even though the Hamas led government is less than a year old in government. You seem to imply that the Lebanese Govt is a foreign lackey whereas the Hezbollah led oppostion somehow is a voice of the masses.What nonsense. When Shias, Sunnis and Christains agree that the Western backed government should go I wonder the type of conclusion one can derive from such a position that cuts across religous and ethnic divide. The opponents of the Govt are just as beholden to foreign nations(Iran and Syria) as the Govt. The anti Govt demonstrations were partly prompted by the Govt's support for investigations into Syria's involvement in Hariri's murder and by a strange coincidence those protesting against the Govt are part of a pro-Syria coaltion.  ???You are losing me here, you know the nations supporting the opponents of the Lebanese government but don't know the nations supporting it, that's strange unless you are being very far from truthful here. This statement should be seen in light of the quote before the last. Also Hezbollah cannot function in a democratic setting if they continue to remain an armed force.This is incompatible with democratic principles.Before the recent conflict with Isreal ,no one could venture into Hezbolah controlled South Lebanon to campaign politically unless they were members of Hezbollah.Shia critics regularly complain of intimidation by Hezbolah militia men.No other party in Lebanon still maintains armed militias.
No party should participate in a democracy with campaign leaflets in one hand and an AK-47 in the other
As long as state sponsored terrorism faces the same criticims, I am in agreement with the position above. |
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4 Play (m)
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So, the lenght of time a government has been in power should be a major factor in determining the correctness or otherwise for a call for change in governmnet. Hope you will remember to apply this same interesting principle in Palestine as Abbas is calling for an early election even though the Hamas led government is less than a year old in government.
Absolutely.I am against Abbas's calls for new elections.There is a major difference between a Govt that has been in power for close to a decade through electoral manipulation,as in the Georgian example u gave,and one that was elected in a free and fair elections as even its opponents accept.
When Shias, Sunnis and Christains agree that the Western backed government should go I wonder the type of conclusion one can derive from such a position that cuts across religous and ethnic divide.
.
Sorry Afam ,all Sunnis and Christians did not come together.Those who came together are members of the opposition who are part of a pro-Syrian coalition.Most Sunnis and Christians do not support the Hezbollah led coalition ???You are losing me here, you know the nations supporting the opponents of the Lebanese government but don't know the nations supporting it, that's strange unless you are being very far from truthful here. This statement should be seen in light of the quote before the last.
It was u who first gave the impression that only the Govt was acting with foreign backing.My point is that both sides are all acting with backing of foreign nations.So Hezbolah led oppostion cannot lay claim to representing purely national interests any more than the Govt.
As long as state sponsored terrorism faces the same criticims, I am in agreement with the position above.
Otherwise u will continue to maintain that armed militias that don't tolerate opposition should continue to be part of the democratic process.The fact that Israel perpetrates violence against Lebanon,which is what u probably mean by "state terrorism",does not mean that one participant in Lebanese politics should have when its rivals don't have armed militia.In a nation like Lebanon which has experienced sectarian violence,it is not safe that one sect,the Shias, should continue to insist that they retain weapons when te other sects have long disbanded their own militias |
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Afam (m)
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@4 Play,
I am happy that you are against Abbas's call for new elections, at least we are getting somewhere and I hope others do not see your position as support for Hamas as is usually the case on this forum when peeople read about views they don't like.
I never stated all Sunni, Shias and Chriatians came together, the simple fact that some non Shias especially Christains and Sunnis are in support of the Hezbollah led opposition goes to show that this call is neither ethnic, religious because it cuts across religious divide. No one can dispute that Iran and Syria support Hezbollah but when some Christains and Sunnis join them is it still correct to hold the view that the intention of all muslims is to wipe out non muslims?
The point here is to show that in reality things are not as simplistic as politicians tend to make them to be.
On the 3rd point, my position is that both the government and the opposition have the support of foriegn nations and it is important it is stated clearly because on the contrary all we hear is Iran and Syria backing Hezbollah as if the Western backed government does not get its support from Western nations not even nations in the sub region or region as a whole.
On your last response, yes, I believe militants groups should arm themselves if the government cannot defend the intergrity of the nation while countries use full military might to attack the nation.
A typical example is the last Israeli/Lebanese war that saw a Lebanese government handicapped while Hezbollah fought back and you will agree with me that the defence put up by Hezbollah is responsible for the current quest to change the status quo in the Lebanese cabinet.
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4 Play (m)
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@Afam
Hezbollah is not defending Lebanon.It provokes Isreal into launching attacks on Lebanon and then claims to be defending Lebanon against such attacks.Bcos of Hezbollah "defending" Lebanon,1000 Lebanese died in the recent conflict.
Hezbolah remains a sectarian organisation whose founding document calls for the establishment of an Islamic State in Lebanon.It is not in the interests of Lebanon that one sect remains armed given the past sectarian conflicts in that country.
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Afam (m)
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@Afam
Hezbollah is not defending Lebanon.It provokes Isreal into launching attacks on Lebanon and then claims to be defending Lebanon against such attacks.Bcos of Hezbollah "defending" Lebanon,1000 Lebanese died in the recent conflict. The over 1000 Lebanese that died were not killed by Hezbollah but by the Israelis and I believe that's a fact. In this regard, who do you think the average Lebanese that lost someone in the war would support? The Hezbollah or Israel? |
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4 Play (m)
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That is why I put "defending" in inverted commas.Hezbollah's defense of the Lebanese people precipitated the loss of a thousand lives.Had Hezbolah disarmed in line with the Security Council Resolution that calls for it to do so,they would have been no cause to attack.
Mind you, most Lebanese people apart from Shias now think Hezbollah should disarm.they are not comfortable with Shia's monopoly of the means of violence
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TayoD (m)
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What a defence strategy by Hezbollah!! Hide behind women and children while firing your katyusha rockets. When you are hit, blame Isreal for not knowing better than to fire at the position where they are being fired at. Bravo to their military genius.
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Aggressa (m)
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A typical example is the last Israeli/Lebanese war that saw a Lebanese government handicapped while Hezbollah fought back and you will agree with me that the defence put up by Hezbollah is responsible for the current quest to change the status quo in the Lebanese cabinet. @All, Take a look at the quoted statement above: can anybody beat this?. I am sure we have P.R.Os worse than the late Wada Nas among Nigerian youths should in case we have a new dictator needing one. This is very 'objectively' embarrasing. Israel / Lebanese war? Hezbollah "fought back"? "Defence put up" by Hezbollah? Are you living on this planet earth or living in Pluto and watching reports on Al-jazeerah Pluto TV? |
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Afam (m)
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@All,
Take a look at the quoted statement above: can anybody beat this?. I am sure we have P.R.Os worse than the late Wada Nas among Nigerian youths should in case we have a new dictator needing one. This is very 'objectively' embarrasing.
Israel / Lebanese war? Hezbollah "fought back"? "Defence put up" by Hezbollah? Are you living on this planet earth or living in Pluto and watching reports on Al-jazeerah Pluto TV?
I neither live on planet Pluto nor watch Al Jazeera. Your mindset based on religious bigotry will continue to blind you. What intellegent people do when they come across statements they disagree with with is provide information that supports their positions, not attacking the personality of the person they disagree with. One thing you may fail to understand is that the more you focus on personality rather than the issues raised is the more you will continue to expose your ignorance or complete lack of understanding of the issues being discussed. Those who find it supremely difficult to make their points on issues are usually the first to attack personality instead of issues and it is not totally surprising coming from someone that cannot finish a single post without focusing on the person rather than the post. Again, the statements or phrases you highlighted are mine, can we have yours? Or, are your thoughts limited to attacking personalities? No matter how many times you address everyone using @All on this forum, it will not stop the users of this forum to independently make up their minds based on facts, logic and common sense. You don't help people make up their minds, your job is to provide information and allow people to decide what makes sense to them and what doesn't. Your tactics of diverting the issue to personalities will not work, only egg heads seek that route when they cannot contribute intelligently. |
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Aggressa (m)
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@afam,
all the previous information, references etc provided by a lot of people on this topic have not been helpful to you; because of your lack of (1) personality and (2) intellectual capacity to reason intelligently.
Get help, dude. All the best in your future.
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Afam (m)
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@Havila,
Finally, a failed attempt to face the issues.
However, such open ended statements that are neither here nor there can't help your arguement.
Why must I agree with references that are not factual simply because it makes an idiot like you happy?
Just because you think something is right certainly doesn't make it right, I hope you can understand this.
If over 90% here choose to believe that OBJ is a woman, that doesn't make it a fact neither does it represent the true position.
If people like you are so sure of your positions, why resort to abusing the people you disagree with? I guess that is a sign of weakness on your part and you are clearly showing it.
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Aggressa (m)
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@Mariory, Thanks; will do. I thought my experience of dealing with emotionally troubled teenagers will be useful with 'it'; but this 'thing' pass am!!! |
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