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KunleOshob (m)
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This is what the bible defines religion as:
James 1:27:
27 Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you.
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KunleOshob (m)
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Well the post below was posted by TV01 on another thread however i am reposting it here cause i believe it would answer some of the questions raised TV01 (m)
London, UK
Posts: 886
Offline
Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes
« #429 on: Today at 12:59:23 AM »
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I often wonder if this discussion will ever reach an end point? After all, surely doctrine is not intended to remain purely theoretical without any practical value or application? And if not, one must always ask “how consonant is the practical outworking of any doctrine with what we would consider Christian behaviour or character?” How indeed, does doctrine affect notions of worship and church structure.
So, how does “the tithe” play out in everyday practical Christian living? As one who confesses –as I believe the bible clearly shows – in simple Christian giving to meet physical need, how do believers in the tithe, Gods ordaining, distinguishing and blessing it, explain the outworking of tithing, even in the simplest terms?
~ How does a Christian worship God with money, or any other physical thing in this dispensation? And in the NT biblical narrative, can any such instance be found?
~ Who is the tithe given to/received by? And what subsequently happens to it? With the saints as priests and The Lord as High Priest, how does this
tithe thing work?
~ Please, can somebody explain “Gods covenant secret/mystery for prosperity?” as some term it. And in the kind of plain English the spiritually simple can understand. Thank you kindly.
~ Is there anything in the biblical narrative – without reference to the Law & Prophets – that upholds the notion that God has ordained, distinguishes and blesses a tithe by New Testament Christians, which is clearly separate from needs based giving?
Attempts to monetise worship are not new. One need only look back to the era of indulgences. I think most of you will be aware of this practice and period in history and what it entailed, for those that are not I would urge you look it up. It was nothing more than extortion, regardless of the good intentions or the attempted justification by lending it the imprimateur of the religious establishment or attempts to normalise it by quoting scripture.
I’ve already alluded to my belief that the tithe is at best an erroneous form of “temple tax”, which is rather odd as temples or dedicated physical places of worship are at best an optional extra, and by no means normative. God has clearly stated that His temple is no longer of stone and His dwelling place is no longer buildings.
It’s not too complicated to see the need for some form of subtly coerced giving, no matter how spiritualised, when religion is institutionalised and physical structures are integral to worship. In fact its simply a way of raising funds Organisations have to be funded somehow. Organisations cannot first survive without funding.
Organisations need to be busy, churning out goods and keeping a captive consumer audience. It’s why there are “programs” more or less daily and why non-attendance is frowned upon. It’s about growth, hence the emphasis on members (not converts and certainly not discipleship). It works to foster dependence and control of your time and resources (mostly money).
It also helps justify a salaried leadership hierarchy, aka clergy. No where does the bible prescribe such. It’s man made tradition. The church is never a business opportunity career path or even vocation.
As ever there is branding. And franchising for the more solid brands. As it evolves, it becomes commoditised. The physical product offering is wide ranging. From programs, including, crusades, deliverance sessions, power nights, dominion evening, conventions, vigils, singles outreach, marriage seminars and the like. Workshops, with specialists and product experts in each field. Secondary product based revenue streams kick in and the organisation is no longer solely dependent on coerced giving, although for the most part the source of their funding is the same.
Then there are the smaller consumables, anointing oil, snake oil, handkerchiefs, chains, branded and customised literature, tapes, CD’s, personal prayer/visits and even cruises. Multiple revenue streams kick in, still from mostly the same source demographic, but the net is wider and consumers don’t have to be local or members.
Like any organisation/institution, they have reflective defensive mechanisms, aimed at eliminating opposition and threats. Try to change or challenge from the inside and you will be branded insubordinate, rebellious, suffer calumny or be ostracised. Do not judge, do not touch the Lords anointed, or talk against the “man of God” – which is pitifully laughable, as almost all such are self styled.
With the doing away with of a physical structures of worship in the form of temples, a mediatory priesthood, physical/burnt offerings and the observance of holy days or otherwise ritualised religion, worship of God is in spirit and in truth. Without physical/ritualised religion, men cannot control it or each other. To do so, the things that have been done away with have to be re-instituted. 1 Corinthians 7:23 - You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.
How does money come into it? It’s pretty simple really, as the bible warns severally, one way of identifying wolves will be their emphasis on gain, lucre and riches. Openly citing it as the very reason for Christianity - prosperity anyone - and it being implicitly obvious for their involvement in ministry. One of the biggest myths in Christian religious circles is “the gospel needs money for propagation”, no it don’t. Organisations and institutionalised religion need money to survive. Take that to the bank! Whenever there’s a crime, a major line of inquiry is always the money trail.
Politics and religion they say are twin evils. I used to hate that phrase, but false and man-made religion, which is very evident in many strains of Christianity and directly opposed to true faith and undefiled God kind religion – caring for orphans and widows, sounds needs based to me? - is exactly that, a great evil. Who can spot the difference between many so called MOGS and the political rulers in Nigeria, in many, if not most respects. Indeed, aren’t they in many instances willing bedfellows?
In many countries with a longer historical “Christian tradition”, religious funding even comes from the state. Now that’s what they talkin’ about. Tithe ke? That’s small time for auditoria and planes. This thing get levels. Money and power and greater dominion, come with political liaison. Ultimately the institutionalised church would like to be a political force in it’s own right , and it once was. These days, it has to make do with a wary liaison with the state. In many ways the aims of religion and politics are the same, so it makes a certain amount of sense. Again, this is not new. The biblical narrative is replete with examples of the religious establishment in bed with the state.
But that’s just the “physical stuff”, dig deeper for the "spiritual".
Seek truth people.
God bless
TV
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Tonye-t (m)
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Religion is necessary for Life
Even all those So-called Atheist, Atheism is their Religion.
MAybe you should stop and think about what Religion actually is.
I would go with Christianity because of these three basic tenets
Love God
Love Your Neighbour
Love Yaself.
point of correction dear, christianity only taught us to love God, and our neighbours and not our own selves, i think that it was from this idea that many so called pentecostals are beginning to do all sorts of disdain things all in the name of the gospel loving oneself are signs of the endtime, bible say" IN THE LAST DAYS MEN SHALL BE LOVERS OF THEMSELVES" |
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olabowale (m)
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@emotional: « #30 on: November 26, 2008, 12:21 PM » @olabowale- meaning islam is d only religion endorsed by God? please,with due respect is sharia man-made law or Allah's? in islam,who are sinners and how are they judge? what is 'peace' in islam? thanks in adv.
Islam is the only religion endorsed by God. I have given you the verses in Qur'aan to support my statement. I want anyone else to show from their "Holy Book" the same argument for their religion. I also believe that that the atheist/agnostic can do the same to argue against God and or Religion, if they have an ancient or even arecent source to make such audacious claim(s). And Sharia laws are from the pages of the Qur'aan alone, which are explained by the Prophet (AS). Alla is the Revealer of Qur'aan, hence Sharia is from Him, alone. Sinners are those who go against Qur'aan, the commnadments of Allah, the Sunnah/Hadith the words and actions of the Prophet (AS). The Altimate Judge is Allah, the Sole Owner of the Day of Judgement. Thats the day that what people should know as Judgement truly has the greatest Meaning. A sinner who is not forgiven will be thrown into the fire of hell, where he will be punished for the misdeeds. The greatest of the list of misdeeds is not being a true practisioner of Islam in its purity. You should practice this religion, to the fullest according to your capability. This does not mean that you should be ascetic. Islam forbids it. Peace in Islam is total submission to Allah's Will, which are His commandments, in the explanations of His Prophets (AS). It is the Prophet (AS), who knew best the instructions of Our Creator. And it is this Prophet whose explanations should be the guidelines for the practice of this noble religion. Hence, peace in Islam is harmonization with all creations, for the pleasure of Allah. If a person is truly a muslim, when he revenges, and if he was bent on it, he will not revenge or avenge beyond how much he was wrong. So a muslim should not kill a whole family, because a person in that family killed his relative. he should allow a free and fair trial in Sharia of the accused. If found guilty, can ask for his life be taken, or show mercy by accepting "blood money" a fine imposed on the guilty for taking a life, or best to forgive abd take nothing as fees or fine, but walk away with the hope that Allah will give the reward as He is the One able to do is the greatest of measures. |
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kola oloye (m)
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@emotional: « #30 on: November 26, 2008, 12:21 PM »
Hence, peace in Islam is harmonization with all creations, for the pleasure of Allah. If a person is truly a muslim, when he revenges, and if he was bent on it, he will not revenge or avenge beyond how much he was wrong. So a muslim should not kill a whole family, because a person in that family killed his relative. he should allow a free and fair trial in Sharia of the accused. If found guilty, can ask for his life be taken ,or show mercy by accepting "blood money" a fine imposed on the guilty for taking a life, or best to forgive abd take nothing as fees or fine, but walk away with the hope that Allah will give the reward as He is the One able to do is the greatest of measures.
Why do you think that a religion that does not mandatory forgiveness is truly from God? God himself is a merciful God. He believes in forgiveness,why then should someone bent on revenge? |
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kola oloye (m)
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Yes. God's religion is Jesus Christ and HIS Religion end with Jesus Christ.  The fact that you said it doesn't mean that we should just take it like that without even a proof. You need to convince us beyond reasonable doubt where it is written that Jesus Christ is God's religion. |
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emotional (m)
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@olabowale. Thanks. KOLA OLOYE has just asked my 1st intend question.2 if sharia(laws) is of ALLAH given tru His prophet why not let him(HIM ALONE ALLAH) pass his judgement rather than men?sharia court and its judges are human so where does Allah play His role as d maker of d laws?based on your explanation sharia in islam, looks like a nation and its laws which is human, nothing seems GODLY to me.
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emotional (m)
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@olabowale-3 PEACE: submission to Allah's will,one can take a life of a man not his family as vengeance,please bros.drop quran just 4 once, ask yourself if really PEACE do exist in your claim."ANYONE SHOULD COME-UP WITH HOLYBOOK"to prove its religion was created by God,obviously all were written by man and none (holybook)of any religion contradits its creation by god/supernatural being,so ?
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olabowale (m)
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@Kola Oloye: « #36 on: Yesterday at 03:20:46 PM » Why do you think that a religion that does not mandatory forgiveness is truly from God? God himself is a merciful God.
He believes in forgiveness,why then should someone bent on revenge?
Islam mandates forgiveness. Where did you get your "idea" that islam does not? Surah Tauba, the second to the last verse says about Muhammad as a means of forgiveness and mercy to believers. Allah's names Al Afuww (The one who loves to forgive) and Al Ghaffar (The Forgiver) could not be undervalued. Or when Allah says that He is the One who forgives all sins, would you then take it that there is any one more or equally forgiven than Him? Even your Jesus cried up to Th God (Allah the Almighty) in the time of his needs! @emotional (m): « #38 on: Today at 01:59:50 PM » @olabowale. Thanks. KOLA OLOYE has just asked my 1st intend question.2 if sharia(laws) is of ALLAH given tru His prophet why not let him(HIM ALONE ALLAH) pass his judgement rather than men?sharia court and its judges are human so where does Allah play His role as d maker of d laws?based on your explanation sharia in islam, looks like a nation and its laws which is human, nothing seems GODLY to me.
When Allah says to Musa (AS) to throw the rod in his hand and it will become a snake that will swallow the magician's snakes, a true believer would not say, it was a trick of the magician, but a miracle to debase the magicians and shame Pharaoh. Please note that Allah had made Musa throw the same stick and have the same result of being a snake in the in Mount Tur. Then in the court of Pharaoh, without the magicians. In both cases, Musa was afraid the first time. And Fir'awn was afraid the second time, while Musa had gained confidence, knowing fully well that Allah was behind him. Now that Allah performed the miracle to defeat magic, the magician and Pharaoh, a believer will not doubt Musa's mission. But a disbeliever will have a heart of stone and will come to incorrect conclusions; all of them lies. This is what I see among you fellas, against Islam. If Allah has not permitted Sharia, as a guide, some people would have taken advantage of others. There would never have been a scale of balance, where there is "guidelines' to live this life, among individuals, peoples, communities, tribes and races and nations. Allah says that He checks one people by another. Otherwise, evildoers would have reigned on earth. Let just imagine if there is no laws in any society. What would be the reason for the inhabitants to be good people? What would prevent one person taking advantage of others? Sharia is the mode and code of ethics that will prevent that in a just society. Am sure that many will use as example the Nigerian or even Arab leadership who are evil doers. But that will not be the correct approach, because in the final analysis, these people are not the people that the Prophet (AS) asked Muslims to look up to. They are not the scholars of Islam and they are not from the three generations. Yet the best of muslims should look at Muhammad for their " examples!" @olabowale-3 PEACE: submission to Allah's will,one can take a life of a man not his family as vengeance,please bros.drop quran just 4 once, ask yourself if really PEACE do exist in your claim."ANYONE SHOULD COME-UP WITH HOLYBOOK"to prove its religion was created by God,obviously all were written by man and none (holybook)of any religion contradits its creation by god/supernatural being,so ?
Sure peace exist in my claim. I am a better person, today because of Islam. I have proven, Alhamdulillah from the pages of the Qur'aan that Islam is the way ordained as a religion on mankind by the Creator. It is up to you to accept. And your rejection still does not change a thing. No reduction in the power of Allah by your rejection. And your acceptance of Islam will not all of a sudden elevate the Owner of the Throne Supreme. Anyone who knows anything about Muhammad (AS), would know that he did not write the Qur'aan. If a person makes tha claim, it will mean the same if he has said the the tape recorder that a lawyer left his dictate for his secretary to type a legal brief, actually wrote the brief. Muhammad (AS) was just a conduit, and so was Jibril (a spirit, an angel, the go between for the most part between Allah and His Human messenger). I remember when we were in High School. The old women will ask a potential scholar to write a letter to her son, overseas or in a far away place. Was the scribe the writer, really, or the woman who was the owner of the idea? For example, if she was angry with the son, would the young "letter writer" be blamed by the Big man overseas? Of course not. The little man, is just following the dictates of the Old woman, the mother who tyruly has human authority over her son. Pay attention, people. |
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Bastage
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Islam mandates forgiveness. Where did you get your "idea" that islam does not? How about the Death penalty that Islam inflicts on Apostates? If people are punished for not following the religion or for insulting it, Islam doesn't mandate forgiveness. It's totally illogical to claim otherwise. |
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olabowale (m)
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@Bastage: I dont think that you can cull out a verse from the holy Qur'aan, where people are supposed to be killed for just leaving Islam. If you can I will have a new found respect for you, even if I have thought that you amount to zero in the first place.
Now the reason that anyone is killed, if the muslims will follow the Qur'aan and Ahadith, that explain it, without their personal idea, is the deceitful person who went into Islam and then decitfully left it and begins spreading lies about it, so that people will leave it and or not enter it!
I direct you to the Qur'aan and you will find verses where Allah talks about those persons who are muslims, then the leave it, and then the enter it again, and then they leave it, once more, etc. If everyone is killed the very first time they leave Islam, why the allowance for returning, and then leaving it and then later returning, etc?
Finally, Verse 256 of Surah Baqarah is a good argument for freedom of religion, under the freewill that Allah gives to mankind. Those who choose not to accept Islam should not be forced, to enter it. There used to be a time the disbelievers were made to pay "Levy; Jizya". Just like when it was permissable to "consume alcohol, or the law of illegal sex was not instituted yet." That was a moment in time. But that does not mean that it can not happen in "special circumstances." Just like the special circumstances that will make it permissable for a person to eat pork, drink alcohol, etc.
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Bastage
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@Bastage: I don't think that you can cull out a verse from the holy Qur'aan, where people are supposed to be killed for just leaving Islam. Hmmm, Verse 256 of Surah Baqarah is a good argument for freedom of religion, under the freewill that Allah gives to mankind. @olabowale: I don't think that you can cull out a verse from the holy Qur'aan, where people are supposed to be allowed freedom of religion. If you're going to insist on talking crap, try not to mix it in with too much hypocrisy.  |
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olabowale (m)
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Bastage must be blind as a bat. Or his mind is dulled up, if he can see that verse 256 of Surah Baqarah is from the Qur'aan in support of my position.
Do you have anything from the Qur'aan to support your position? Well, of course, you are not amuslim. You will not know a thing about Qur'aan. Or would you?
Bastage, you are wasting my time. Some people do want attention. When I don't give it, it becomes personal with them.
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Aunty Mary (f)
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[ point of correction dear, christianity only taught us to love God, and our neighbours and not our own selves, i think that it was from this idea that many so called pentecostals are beginning to do all sorts of disdain things all in the name of the gospel
loving oneself are signs of the endtime, bible say" IN THE LAST DAYS MEN SHALL BE LOVERS OF THEMSELVES"
pls get your facts right before coming on here and spewing garbage, even I, who's not a christian know that the bible teaches to love your neighbour as you love urself, some bible verses to boost your knowledge here, pls learn ehn? dont worry, thank me later LEVITICUS 19:18 NKJ 18 `You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord. MATTHEW 19:19 NKJ 19 `Honor your father and your mother,' and, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' " MATTHEW 22:39 NKJ 39 "And the second is like it: `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' MARK 12:31 NKJ 31 "And the second, like it, is this: `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." LUKE 10:27 NKJ 27 So he answered and said, " `You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and `your neighbor as yourself.' " ROMANS 13:9 NKJ 9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." GALATIANS 5:14 NKJ 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." JAMES 2:8 NKJ 8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well; |
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Aunty Mary (f)
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how strange! i was speaking to a 'suitor' yesterday night and he has been bothering me for yrs to have a relationship with him. yesterday, he was telling me he wants to marry me, so i told him nigerian men find my views on life and religion in particular, a bit 'unconventional' and i dont think he wud understand or respect them either, he was adamant, then i gave him my opinion about religion, the long and short of which is simply - i do not identify with any religion although i was born a christian for the simple fact that religion was not created by man, he was shocked and begged me to reconsider and went on to tell me about how jesus is lord and God and how he wud like for his wife to fear God/Jesus,
so i asked him 2 questions; which i pose here as well:
1. why fear God if the creator is not a monster? why not love God? afterall love and fear are two distinct emotions and shud not be confused and of the two, love is the greater,
2. if indeed jesus is God (which i do not believe and is the primary reason i left the church), then does that not mean christians are on the wrong path as jesus was born and died a jew? would that not mean that if indeed God had a religion, it wud be judaism?
and before anyone comes and starts regurgitating answers given to them by their pastors, please try to think for urself. jesus did not 'come' to start a new religion, his followers did
in anycase and in answer to the topic, no, God did not create religion, religion like culture, the legal system etc was created by man to control other men by fear of punishment in the afterlife and deluding them with promises of bliss on the otherside if they conform, the by-product of this control is further segregation (in addition to the natural differences/barriers of race and sex) based on religion,
religion is EVIL and shud be stamped out!
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KunleOshob (m)
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@Aunty mary
I tend to agree with you that religion was created by men and also that the church as seriously led chrisitans astray and the true gospel of christ is not what is being preached. However the true gospel of christ is an eternal truth and he came to reconcile us with God. Yes i agree with you Jesus is not God (he never claimed to be) he is the son of God. However a lot of confused preachers say he is God. This i believe is wrong. I beseech you to reconcile your faith in christ, not based on what the church says but based on what the New testament says. I suggest you read the four gospels of christ to know his true teachings and reflect on it. There after read the epistles for further insight. The true Gospel of christ is simply amazing and it cannot be faulted however the church leadership (organized religion) as suppressed these truths propagating what they like and not what christ taught. You can still be a christian my dear without affliating yourself to any church.
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kola oloye (m)
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@olabowale,Has it ever occured to you that there has never been any reply from God concerning the last 2 verses of this chapter  Translations of the Qur'an, Chapter 1: AL-FATIHA (THE OPENING) Total Verses: 7 Revealed At: MAKKA Maududi's introduction 001.001 PICKTHAL: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. 001.002 PICKTHAL: Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds, 001.003 PICKTHAL: The Beneficent, the Merciful. 001.004 PICKTHAL: Master of the Day of Judgment, 001.005 PICKTHAL: Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help. 001.006
PICKTHAL: Show us the straight path,
001.007
PICKTHAL: The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray. Then tell me why the response whether positive or negative was never recorded in this holy book. Or do you think that God is still waiting for the right time before He will show the way? My dear brother am not yet convinced that Islam is a religion created by God. Anxiously waiting for your response. Thank you.
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kola oloye (m)
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how strange! i was speaking to a 'suitor' yesterday night and he has been bothering me for years to have a relationship with him. yesterday, he was telling me he wants to marry me, so i told him nigerian men find my views on life and religion in particular, a bit 'unconventional' and i don't think he would understand or respect them either, he was adamant, then i gave him my opinion about religion, the long and short of which is simply - i do not identify with any religion although i was born a christian for the simple fact that religion was not created by man, he was shocked and begged me to reconsider and went on to tell me about how jesus is lord and God and how he would like for his wife to fear God/Jesus,
so i asked him 2 questions; which i pose here as well:
1. why fear God if the creator is not a monster? why not love God? afterall love and fear are two distinct emotions and should not be confused and of the two, love is the greater,
2. if indeed jesus is God (which i do not believe and is the primary reason i left the church), then does that not mean christians are on the wrong path as jesus was born and died a jew? would that not mean that if indeed God had a religion, it would be judaism?
and before anyone comes and starts regurgitating answers given to them by their pastors, please try to think for yourself. jesus did not 'come' to start a new religion, his followers did
in anycase and in answer to the topic, no, God did not create religion, religion like culture, the legal system etc was created by man to control other men by fear of punishment in the afterlife and deluding them with promises of bliss on the otherside if they conform, the by-product of this control is further segregation (in addition to the natural differences/barriers of race and sex) based on religion,
religion is EVIL and should be stamped out!
90% of what you saId have been proved in the past to be correct.JESUS IS NOT THE ALMIGHTY GOD,HE IS THE SON OF THE MOST HIGH. point of correction: Religion is not evil we only have too much of evil people inside religion. Moreover religion has its own advantages. |
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olabowale (m)
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@Aunty mary« #46 on: Today at 02:41:10 AM » how strange! i was speaking to a 'suitor' yesterday night and he has been bothering me for years to have a relationship with him. yesterday, he was telling me he wants to marry me, so i told him nigerian men find my views on life and religion in particular, a bit 'unconventional' and i don't think he would understand or respect them either, he was adamant, then i gave him my opinion about religion, the long and short of which is simply - i do not identify with any religion although i was born a christian for the simple fact that religion was not created by man, he was shocked and begged me to reconsider and went on to tell me about how jesus is lord and God and how he would like for his wife to fear God/Jesus,
so i asked him 2 questions; which i pose here as well:
1. why fear God if the creator is not a monster? why not love God? afterall love and fear are two distinct emotions and should not be confused and of the two, love is the greater,
You can fear a lover, too, by not doing what will make him/her unhappy, sad, disappointed, etc. Parents are feared by their offsprings when they do things that make the parents happy about them. People will do whatever pleasure them, if there are no rules, or fear of disappointing some entity; self, family member, community, family heritage, society, authority, or Altimate Authority, who is GOD Lord who created. Of course thats not Jesus. 2. if indeed jesus is God (which i do not believe and is the primary reason i left the church), then does that not mean christians are on the wrong path as jesus was born and died a jew? would that not mean that if indeed God had a religion, it would be judaism?
The True God has to be One Single Lord. God have to always be in existence. So He could never have been born, making what gave birth to it preceeding it. The birth giver whould definitely be Older and wiser, at some point. Also He could never have died, making what existed after its death outlasted or out lived it. At least when the body was dead and lifeless, he would have missed what happened in this period of time and would not have been in control of anything. Whatever existed in this period will have the "knowledge" that he did not have because of the death experience. At least not the knowledge about this world. Both contidions of being born and dying nullifies Jesus as a possible god, except a false god title being hauled at him, by those who believed it, because of few miracles. Fortunately, Judaism, was not even a named religion, during the time of Moses. Whoever thinks it was, should provide Proof. So Judaism was not the religion, also, pre-Moses. This, no one in his/her right mind will attemp to prove. Judaism as a religion or tribal name was carved out of the name Judea or Judah. If Judea, we see that it is even after the reign of Prophet and wise King Solomon (AS). If from Judah, we see tat it is from the nation of one of the children of Jacob. So therefore, Judaism is also a man made religion, just like Christianity is. and before anyone comes and starts regurgitating answers given to them by their pastors, please try to think for yourself. jesus did not 'come' to start a new religion, his followers did
Thank you. We have been saying this same thing over and over to the Christians. But they tend to actually grasp it. in anycase and in answer to the topic, no, God did not create religion, religion like culture, the legal system etc was created by man to control other men by fear of punishment in the afterlife and deluding them with promises of bliss on the otherside if they conform, the by-product of this control is further segregation (in addition to the natural differences/barriers of race and sex) based on religion,
religion is EVIL and should be stamped out!
Since you are from a Christian back ground, I see that you spoke from Biblical experiences, alone. Now I advice you to pick up the Qur'aan to have a full knowledge about God and His ordained religion on mankind. Then you will be able to truly speak about religion. While I agree with you that Judaism, Christianity as well all the other "isms" in world religions are all man made, Islam is not. You sound non-nigerian because you have qualified yourself with the "nigerian potential suitor." So use the global experience and opportunity at your disposal to get a Qur'aan, a life History book of the last prophet to mankind Muhammad (AS). Read with open mind. And please forget the Muslims and their deviant acts away from Islam when you are doing your reading. Then read ahadith/sunnah. This is when you can talk about religion. There is Islam and then the rest of the man made systems, being hauled at us as religions. @KunleOshob (m):« #47 on: Today at 11:01:09 AM » @Aunty mary
I tend to agree with you that religion was created by men and also that the church as seriously led chrisitans astray and the true gospel of christ is not what is being preached. However the true gospel of christ is an eternal truth and he came to reconcile us with God.
Kunle, how is it possible for you to point out to anyone, what the true gospel of Jesus is, if what is available today, as you have agreed with the lady, that Christianity is created by men, and the church has led you astray and not preaching the true gospel? Where is the true gospel, except the not true gospel that is available to you and all christians? I wanna know if you have the truth and you have been keeping it away from your Christian brethren all along? If you can get me the true gospel, I have gift for you. Yes i agree with you Jesus is not God (he never claimed to be) he is the son of God.
How is he son of God? Is there a need for God to have a son? What will be the porpose of that son? I know many christians are going to cry foul at me. But I can't help it but to just put it out here: Where is the spouse of God who produces His son? Name and full details, please. Thank you. However a lot of confused preachers say he is God. This i believe is wrong. I beseech you to reconcile your faith in christ, not based on what the church says but based on what the New testament says. I suggest you read the four gospels of christ to know his true teachings and reflect on it.
"Kunle!". Didn't you just say that the church do not preach the "true" gospel of Jesus? Are not the 4 gospels in the Bible what the church preaches? Which part is the true gospel that the church is ignoring, while they preached what you call leading astray? Please bring out verses. And the verse(s) of how you come up with son of God! There after read the epistles for further insight. The true Gospel of christ is simply amazing and it cannot be faulted however the church leadership (organized religion) as suppressed these truths propagating what they like and not what christ taught. You can still be a christian my dear without affliating yourself to any church.
Epistles are letters. And they are written by Jesus? Of course not. If a lie occurs in any, yet the Bible puts it in there, then we have to discard the whole Book, or at least the section and the author(s) for sure. And where is the true Godpel of Jesus that you are claiming to be amazing? From the Bible? You can do better than that. With your own mouth you said something contains falsehood and what leads astray by the preachers. Yet you call it amazing. Isn't deceitfulness amazing. Its magic. Yet it is false. How are you encouraging somebody to be a christian when you said religion (christianity is a religion) is man made? You are talking from both sides of the mouth. Where is the truth, KunleOshob? |
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KunleOshob (m)
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@Olabowale You obviously have no clue what the true gospel of our lord Jesus christ is all about, unfortuantely many christians don't as well so i won't blame you. There is no contradiction in my post just a lack of understanding on your part. For you to undestand my position i suggest you check out this thread were i thouroughly explained the emphasis of the gospel of christ. Then you would learn to appreciate the truth better. http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-148850.0.html |
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olabowale (m)
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@Kola Oloye: « #48 on: Today at 01:41:15 PM » @olabowale,
Has it ever occured to you that there has never been any reply from God concerning the last 2 verses of this chapter
Translations of the Qur'an, Chapter 1:
AL-FATIHA (THE OPENING)
Total Verses: 7
Revealed At: MAKKA
Maududi's introduction
001.001
PICKTHAL: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
001.002
PICKTHAL: Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
001.003
PICKTHAL: The Beneficent, the Merciful.
001.004
PICKTHAL: Master of the Day of Judgment,
001.005
PICKTHAL: Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.
001.006
PICKTHAL: Show us the straight path,
001.007
PICKTHAL: The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.
Then tell me why the response whether positive or negative was never recorded in this holy book.
Or do you think that God is still waiting for the right time before He will show the way?
My dear brother am not yet convinced that Islam is a religion created by God. Anxiously waiting for your response. Thank you.
From your statement, it seems to me that you believe that all the above except the last two verses are already made clear to you. So you believe that there is God, who is Master, Owner, the Only one to worship, seek aids from, etc. If you read the tafsir of who the last verse is talking about, you will see that those who hast favored are the true worshippers of the God; eg, Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Lut, Ismail, Isiaq, Yaquub, Yusuf, Musa, , Zakariyah, Yahya, Isa bin Mariam. And those who earned thine Anger are the Jews because they had so much prophets/Messengers to lead them aright. Yet they deviated. And those who are astray are the christians, because they simply took a good foundation laid down by Jesus and bastardized it. They saw all the examples of what happened to the Jews, yet they are still blind and will not receive guidance, making this up according to their own desires. Following the Jewish pattern of self agrandizement in how they formulate religion and belief. Now if you go to Surah Baqarah (2), immediately after the 6th and the 7th verses of the Surah Fatiha, which you want to know if there are answers to, above, you will see verses 2 through 5, giving the believer the inroad to the answer and guidelines of "straight part" in (verse 6 of Surah Fatiha), and those who are "favored" in the (verse 7 of Surah Fatiha). And in verses 6 and 7 of Baqarah, Allah talks about the disbelivers, Jews who have earned Anger, the Christians who are astray, and even the Idol worshippers of the other worldly "isms" (Hinduism, Taoism, etc). And in verses 8 through 10 of Surah Baqarah Allah describes the "hyporites" in the rank of the muslims. They claim to be believers. It only on the lips and for show. But they are truly disbelievers. Since what is in their hearts are lies, and deceit. Their situation is worse than outright disbelievers. From verses 11 to 20, of surah Baqarah, Allah describes the disbelievers and also the hypocrites, as truly disbelieving peoples. In verse21, of Surah baqarah, Allah begins to address mankind, in a general term; believers and believers alike in the way that will lead to belief, receiving favor, and getting far away from being a disbeliever. Thanks for the opportunity for me to address this matter. I am not a scholar. At best a student learner of Islam. May allah guide us all. |
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olabowale (m)
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@KunleOshob: « #51 on: Today at 02:50:46 PM » @Olabowale You obviously have no clue what the true gospel of our lord Jesus christ is all about, unfortuantely many christians don't as well so i won't blame you. There is no contradiction in my post just a lack of understanding on your part. For you to undestand my position i suggest you check out this thread were i thouroughly explained the emphasis of the gospel of christ. Then you would learn to appreciate the truth better. http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-148850.0.htmlKunle, Kunle, Kunle. If what I read in your post as you suggest in the http://www., is what the Gospel of Jesus is, which as you have stressed, is simply love of God and then love of neighbor, then please know that it is very, very inferior to a small percentage of the "Sunnah of Muhammad (AS)." And the sunnah is action of explanation of the Qur'aan. Now pay attention to the fact that what your "love" gospel is talking about, is absolutely impossible. Even Jesus could not even practiced what you said he preached. That is, if we consider that he actually commanded his followers to sell their clothing and purchase "swords," with the gain. Please where is the love of Neighbor in this, except that we are at least expecting some bloodshed? I will also tell you that we will find a verse in the Bible that points to the Jihadist nature of Jesus, by his telling someone to bring his enemies in front of him and slay them. |
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olabowale (m)
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@ KunleOshob: Tip: Save time by hitting the return key instead of clicking on "search" Search ResultsLuke 19:27 "But these enemies of mine, who did not want meBut those my enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring here, and slay them before me. American Standard Version But these mine enemies, , bible.cc/luke/19-27.htm - 16k - Cached - Similar pages View topic - Undeniable contradictions :: Atheist Network20 posts - 16 authors - Last post: May 27 "Bring my enemies and slay them before me" - Jesus , But jesus says to one of the other crucified victims on the Friday: ', today you will , www.atheistnetwork.com/viewtopic.php?t=18629&sid=7226fa6a1a61ba3865524d9b5d23fb11 - 112k - Cached - Similar pages "Slay them before me", a parable, really ?But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (Luke, 19, 27). So what ? , pagesperso-orange.fr/daruc/divers/jesusking.htm - 10k - Cached - Similar pages Jesus explicitly telling his disciples to bring those who do not want him to , (or whatever) in the parable says bring my enemies before me and slay them. , richarddawkins.net/article,636,Is-God-a-Delusion-Atheism-and-the-Meaning-of-Life,Alister-McGrath-Open-Forum - 99k - Cached - Similar pages Jesus' SinsLuke 19:27 Jesus said: But My enemies, who would not have Me reign over them, bring them before Me and slay them. Would Jesus declare people enemies for not , www.thegodmurders.com/id90.html - 84k - Cached - Similar pages Somni-Forum > jesus advocates murder10 posts - Last post: Jan 26, 2007 luke 19:27, jesus says. QUOTE. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before , https://forum.poppies.org/lofiversion/index.php?t13346.html - 12k - Cached - Similar pages SAB, Luke 19"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." In the parable of the talents, Jesus says , skepticsannotatedbible.com/Lk/19.html - 58k - Cached - Similar pages Islam: The Progressiveness of Islam, muhammad pbuh, prophet jesus"Love your enemy"!!!!! but how if the same Jesus says "slay them before me"? " think not I've come to bring peace on earth", "I've not come to bring peace , en.allexperts.com/q/Islam-947/Progressiveness-Islam-2.htm - 25k - Cached - Similar pages The Bible and religious intoleranceBring them, and slay them before me, as Agag before Samuel. , If he actually meant to say, "Hey! DON'T be slaying my enemies now! , www.religioustolerance.org/intol_luke19.htm - 62k - Cached - Similar pages Parable of the Ten PoundsSLAY THEM BEFORE ME. Commentary by Jim Walker , For followers to accept the lesson of their Jesus, they would have to slay their enemies before Him where , nobeliefs.com/parable.htm - 8k - Cached - Similar pages |
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KunleOshob (m)
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@KunleOshob: « #51 on: Today at 02:50:46 PM » Kunle, Kunle, Kunle. If what I read in your post as you suggest in the http://www., is what the Gospel of Jesus is, which as you have stressed, is simply love of God and then love of neighbor, then please know that it is very, very inferior to a small percentage of the "Sunnah of Muhammad (AS)." And the sunnah is action of explanation of the Qur'aan.Now pay attention to the fact that what your "love" gospel is talking about, is absolutely impossible. Even Jesus could not even practiced what you said he preached. That is, if we consider that he actually commanded his followers to sell their clothing and purchase "swords," with the gain. Please where is the love of Neighbor in this, except that we are at least expecting some bloodshed? I will also tell you that we will find a verse in the Bible that points to the Jihadist nature of Jesus, by his telling someone to bring his enemies in front of him and slay them. Could you point out to that place in the bible were you read this hallucinations?? Or are you confusing Jesus with Mohammed? What is Sunnah of Mohammed |
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KunleOshob (m)
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@Olabowale
You don't have to resort to outright lies and manipulation of scripture just to Justify your hallucinations. The Luke 19:27 you quoted are the excerpts of a parable and it was definitely not refering to Jesus himself for the benefit of all i would post the whole passage thus:
Luke 19:11-27:
Parable of the Ten Servants
11 The crowd was listening to everything Jesus said. And because he was nearing Jerusalem, he told them a story to correct the impression that the Kingdom of God would begin right away. 12 He said, “A nobleman was called away to a distant empire to be crowned king and then return. 13 Before he left, he called together ten of his servants and divided among them ten pounds of silver,[a] saying, ‘Invest this for me while I am gone.’ 14 But his people hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We do not want him to be our king.’
15 “After he was crowned king, he returned and called in the servants to whom he had given the money. He wanted to find out what their profits were. 16 The first servant reported, ‘Master, I invested your money and made ten times the original amount!’
17 “‘Well done!’ the king exclaimed. ‘You are a good servant. You have been faithful with the little I entrusted to you, so you will be governor of ten cities as your reward.’
18 “The next servant reported, ‘Master, I invested your money and made five times the original amount.’
19 “‘Well done!’ the king said. ‘You will be governor over five cities.’
20 “But the third servant brought back only the original amount of money and said, ‘Master, I hid your money and kept it safe. 21 I was afraid because you are a hard man to deal with, taking what isn’t yours and harvesting crops you didn’t plant.’
22 “‘You wicked servant!’ the king roared. ‘Your own words condemn you. If you knew that I’m a hard man who takes what isn’t mine and harvests crops I didn’t plant, 23 why didn’t you deposit my money in the bank? At least I could have gotten some interest on it.’
24 “Then, turning to the others standing nearby, the king ordered, ‘Take the money from this servant, and give it to the one who has ten pounds.’
25 “‘But, master,’ they said, ‘he already has ten pounds!’
26 “‘Yes,’ the king replied, ‘and to those who use well what they are given, even more will be given. But from those who do nothing, even what little they have will be taken away. 27 And as for these enemies of mine who didn’t want me to be their king—bring them in and execute them right here in front of me.’”
It doesn't help your pitiable case to twist scripture. As we all know it was Mohammed that was involved in so called holy Jihad in which he personally supervised the slaugthering of innocent souls just because they refused to accept Islam. The fruits of Mohammed's mass murders are still manifesting in the religion he established today thru terrorists who draw their inspiration from him.
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olabowale (m)
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@KunleOshob: I dont have to twist anything, since you are in a silly sense was able to cull out "jesus is son of, , while some of you say he "is, "! You could not have a place in your Bible, where he boldly and unabashly made such a statement.
You guys have been able to arrive at said conclusions, because of your deductions via the parables and things that are not "direct!" Hence, the King in the parable, since many of you call "Jesus" king, etc, will be Jesus! If not, then tell me who the king was, and while you are at it, let me know how you came about your "god, or son or king of kings" titles about Jesus, when he himself, never for once made any of these claims?
He had a chance to declare his true position before Ceaser, but he didn't! Boldness I say.
And by the way, I simply stated what is in your Bible, since Jesus was always talking about himself, as something more than human, in parable, according to your understanding. While you attack this verse, you fail to attack what I said about preparation for war(s), by the sale of clothing and purchase instead "Swords!" I guess the warriors, since they will finish till they die will have no need for Clothing, and nakedness is acceptable. lol.
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OBVIOUS (m)
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Religion has nothing to do with god. it is a political tool used to create order and control.
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Aunty Mary (f)
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@Aunty mary« #46 on: Today at 02:41:10 AM »
You can fear a lover, too, by not doing what will make him/her unhappy, sad, disappointed, etc. Parents are feared by their offsprings when they do things that make the parents happy about them. People will do whatever pleasure them, if there are no rules, or fear of disappointing some entity; self, family member, community, family heritage, society, authority, or Altimate Authority, who is GOD Lord who created. Of course thats not Jesus.
Fortunately, Judaism, was not even a named religion, during the time of Moses. Whoever thinks it was, should provide Proof. So Judaism was not the religion, also, pre-Moses. This, no one in his/her right mind will attemp to prove. Judaism as a religion or tribal name was carved out of the name Judea or Judah. If Judea, we see that it is even after the reign of Prophet and wise King Solomon (AS). If from Judah, we see tat it is from the nation of one of the children of Jacob.
So therefore, Judaism is also a man made religion, just like Christianity is.
Thank you. We have been saying this same thing over and over to the Christians. But they tend to actually grasp it.
Since you are from a Christian back ground, I see that you spoke from Biblical experiences, alone. Now I advice you to pick up the Qur'aan to have a full knowledge about God and His ordained religion on mankind. Then you will be able to truly speak about religion. While I agree with you that Judaism, Christianity as well all the other "isms" in world religions are all man made, Islam is not. You sound non-nigerian because you have qualified yourself with the "nigerian potential suitor." So use the global experience and opportunity at your disposal to get a Qur'aan, a life History book of the last prophet to mankind Muhammad (AS). Read with open mind. And please forget the Muslims and their deviant acts away from Islam when you are doing your reading. Then read ahadith/sunnah. This is when you can talk about religion.
There is Islam and then the rest of the man made systems, being hauled at us as religions.
Olabowale, you seem to miss the point, fear and love/compassion are very separate and distinct emotions, one can fear someone/something and not love them, but one cannot love something and at the same time fear it, if indeed love is the underlying emotion behind one's actions towards a loved one, naturally, one wud strive to do only the things that will be pleasing to them, it is not (as you say) the fear of making another unhappy but rather the wanting to make the other happy out of love, do not confuse the two, as they say, fear is of the devil and love is of God, no matter how you try to spin it, it doesn't change the fact, fear is fear and love is love, fullstop with regards to Judaism, i totally agree with u that judaism as with any other religion is manmade, however, again u seem to miss the point that i was trying to make to the christians especially the lady here that commented that God's religion begins and ends with jesus christ, that if indeed this were so, then God wud be a jew becos jesus was a jew, and even in the church when they hail him, he is called the lion of the tribe of judah, christianity itself in only a denomination of judaism anyway, afterall the old testament is the jewish torah. i do not need to read the quran to know that it was written by a man, who like others in the bible and in other religions claimed to be inspired by God, its not rocket science to know that iif God is transcends human tendencies, then surely He doesn't need us to worship him as He is not egoistical (altho again christians like to believe that He is infact a jealous and angry being), it is also not rocket science to understand that the clothes a person adorns or how ever many times they chose to hit their head on the floor facing the east (some 'sacred' stone in mecca) does not have any bearing to the spiritual, God is a spirit and as such is omnipresent, whether u face the east or west, north or south, He is there, spirituality and routine rituals (religion) are separate, infact, any form of 'spirituality' which lays down 'acceptable' forms of dressing for its followers CANNOT inspired by the Divine as it confuses the physical with the spiritual, without going into the thousand and one other reasons why religion fails to convince, this in itself shud tell u, your islam is NOT and was NOT created by God, and tell your muslim brothers to stop the mindless killings in the name of Allah in the hope of being presented with virgins in paradise, the only virgins they will find are here on earth and they better take advantage of that while they can cos there is no paradise/heaven, everything is here on earth, |
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Aunty Mary (f)
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90% of what you saId have been proved in the past to be correct.JESUS IS NOT THE ALMIGHTY GOD,HE IS THE SON OF THE MOST HIGH.
i think this is where christians get it all wrong to they take things to literarily, if i say i am the son of the soil doesnt mean the soil gave birth to me or that i am male, it just means i am from the land e.g.an egba man called the illustrious son of the soil only refers to his place of birth(or that of his parents) and does not mean that he came out of the soil literarily (altho if u are yoruba it may be hard for u to understand this as u guys believe that oduduwa fell from the sky!)  anyway, we are all sons and daughters of the divine and we are all divine beings in physical form, jesus knew this and so do many other gurus, we are all one with God, the fact that we do not realise this does not mean that it is not true, He is love and the true nature of man is love (unless u r a follower of freuds theories), its is fear that makes man do all the evil we do, be it fear of losing, appearing weak to the next guy, being hungry, poverty, being lonely, being hooked up, u name it! if u closely examine the true underlying reason u have done something 'bad' in the past, u will see that consciously or uncpnsciously, your action or inaction was motivated by fear, every human being was born a loving spirit, it is experience that makes the majority of us lock the love and compassion away inside so as not to 'allow ppl walk all over us', jesus wasnt lying when he said that him and the Father are one, but he surely didnt mean that literarily as per the 'trinity', we are all one in the world and one with the divine too, we are all a part of Him and He of us, please believe that and realise that u DO NOT have to go thru jesus or mary or buddha or mohammed or whoever to get to him cos he is already in you and with u! much luv |
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kola oloye (m)
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jesus wasnt lying when he said that him and the Father are one, but he surely didnt mean that literarily as per the 'trinity', we are all one in the world and one with the divine too, we are all a part of Him and He of us, please believe that and realise that u DO NOT have to go through jesus or mary or buddha or mohammed or whoever to get to him because he is already in you and with u! much love My sister but we read it in the bible where Jesus said "ask the father in my name and He will do it". Do you think that we should be making our request in our own name based on the knowledge that we are one with God? He even said that no one can come to the Father except through him? Now what are we to do |
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kola oloye (m)
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@olabowale,
Jesus or no Jesus, Mohammed or no Muhammed- the earlier you realise the better:GOD DID NOT CREATE ANY RELIGION.
Most of us THE BLACK race are just too inferior with what we have as our own to adopt other peoples' culture and religion.
We have our own culture and our religion,why can't we make those one work for us?
Even the religion you adopted,you cannot even proof it as the best.
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