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yawa-ti-de (f)
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webdezzi, as always, you never fail to amaze me and I mean that with all the love in my heart for you  - I didn't say I am a CSS guru. - Speaking for myself, I never have said tables is outdated. I have said in so many words though that using tables for layout is outdated - IMHO, comparing ASP to say, PHP and comparing CSS layout to table layout aren't the same thing. - what people want is a website that load fast, displays well, scripted to do the required tasks.
nobody cares if you achieved that with tables or windows, nobody.
they dont even want to know u used dreamweaver or notepad, or php or asp Just because they don't doesn't mean you should do them a disservice by not giving them a website that is as efficient as possible. That's like saying just because most car owners don't pop open their hood that you should use fanta instead of engine oil, as long as the car runs normally. I don't think, IMHO, that this is how a mature coder should think. Never think in shortcuts. How can you develop a site that loads fast or a site you aren't even sure will display well if you aren't even coding to latest web standards and are embedding tables that adds to your page weight, among others. Speaking of that: - I have asked you to tell me what am losing by using tables and not css, you have said nothing in this regard Apparently, you haven't faithfully read the entire thread from #1 to the last. But for the record: 1) You add unnecessary page weight to your pages. This increases download times. Might not make a difference to you if you have a T1 connection but how many of us have that? 2) If ever you develop a site to be used by those who use screen readers, this is how it goes (I know cos I have sat in such a session and that is how I appreciated CSS), "table, row, cell, table, row, cell, table, row, cell, hello webdezzi, end cell, end row, etc etc). On the other hand, this is how it sounds using CSS, "left-column, navigation, right column, hello web dezzi)". The difference is clear. 3) Semantically, it just doesn't make sense. Tables are for, as the name implies, tabular data, not layout. Never mind that many have been using it for years. It was cos at the time, we had nothing better and some "guru (i hate this name. Makes me feel like a Buddhist), bless his/her heart, discovered that he could precisely position his elements on a page using tables and of course, we all followed blindly. 4) Have you tried checking any of your embedded-table sites on mobile devices? Such basically crash my device. When they do show up, they come up in chunks. I have more, but don't want to bore everyone. Please note: We are beating a dead horse here. sure there will always be 2 sides to a coin. Having said that, when debating issues, let's do so not based on emotions or "who send?" but on facts. Fact is, we should all be up on the latest technologies. People came up with them for a reason and most importantly, people have agreed that these standards work for a reason. |
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cnario (m)
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YAWA God bless you.
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webdezzi (m)
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am glad u said it's not outdated as opposed to the impression created by cnario I wonder why this argument is going on at this age, when the whole world have switched to CSS as far back as 1999. Are Nigerian developers so backwards?
Please check out the w3c website regularly to keep yourselves updated with the latest w3c recommendations.
Cheers!
and for the note, if you were talking about saving some kilobyte, you probably must have weighted out your thoughts, thats ok. the max i ever got on a page, no matter the complexity, excluding medias is 50KB, my pages averages 30KB most times. while depending on some factors, medias ends up claiming much more. so i place more emphasis on optimizing my images. -thats me You have your believes and thats you. Why did i stand against your view (well not really against it) there are newbies out there, they need to understand why they are coding in css, not because web standards is saying, tables are bad. @cnario, You still havent shown me the link to w3c i asked for, I wont go searching for it because w3c never said tables are outdated and ppl shud start using css and talking about search engines running away from table and cuddling css, i know thats false, why not show me a link on say Google Webmaster Central that supports your claim. There are many SEO articles out there, i dont read them, why? they make SEO complex and hoping when you are totally confused, you will subscribe to their "lets submit your website to 1 million search engines", i only go to Google Webmaster Central. For the laughs: I got this from http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=35291Be wary of SEO firms and web consultants or agencies that send you email out of the blue.
Amazingly, we get these spam emails too:
"Dear google.com,
I visited your website and noticed that you are not listed in most of the major search engines and directories, "
Reserve the same skepticism for unsolicited email about search engines as you do for "burn fat at night" diet pills or requests to help transfer funds from deposed dictators. |
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yawa-ti-de (f)
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First off, just like with anything in life, you don't jump for something just because someone has a sweet mouth. Smart money says you should do your own research, preferably talking to those you know who have received similar service, then make your mind based on that. Trust, but verify. and talking about search engines running away from table and cuddling css,
i know thats false, why not show me a link on say Google Webmaster Central that supports your claim. If you know that's false, why not jump first by showing us a link to your claim? By the way, I personally wouldn't say search engines "run away" in favor of CSS but that they find it harder to "chew" such pages - too many html tags. CSS is cleaner. This is a fact. What did you say? Show you proof? Pull up any page that uses tables (like yours) and pull up a page that uses 100% CSS and come back and lie to us you could better follow the former. am glad u said it's not outdated as opposed to the impression created by cnario It is outdated depending on what you want to use it for  and for the note, if you were talking about saving some kilobyte, you probably must have weighted out your thoughts, thats ok. It's more than ok - I check my site on a site analyzer and believe me, I have seen and appreciate the difference the max i ever got on a page, no matter the complexity, excluding medias is 50KB, my pages averages 30KB most times.
while depending on some factors, medias ends up claiming much more.
so i place more emphasis on optimizing my images. -thats me You can not separate them out. When a person goes to your site, they don't get separate items. They get it all. Having said that, if you can keep your HTML to below 60KB, with embedded tables, that's good. Again, that doesn't make it right though (if you are using it for layout). There are many SEO articles out there, i dont read them, why? they make SEO complex and hoping when you are totally confused,
you will subscribe to their "lets submit your website to 1 million search engines", i only go to Google Webmaster Central. I think this is risky. Just use webmaster central like you said and you are good to go. Again, don't blindly follow something or somebody (including webmaster central) just because they claim to be an authority. Do your own research and make an informed decision. This applies not just to coding but life in general. |
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webdezzi (m)
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@yawa, If you know that's false, why not jump first by showing us a link to your claim? how about this, I tell you notepad has code coloring, you say thats a lie, and you go ahead to ask me for a proof now, since i cant provide u with a proof, i then ask you to prove that it doesn't have code coloring. who raised the dust? who shud proof? So why dont you let he who said
1. search engine crawlers have issues with tables, as against CSS sites which they find very friendly - they crawl DIVs with ease. The point actually is removing mark-up from presentation as much as possible. Here is how it works, search engines crawl billions of websites in minutes. When they enter a website, and find lots of mark-up, they leave, because they just hate the damn MARK-UPs. CSS tries as much as possible to remove as much mark-up as possible from your site, leaving only presentation. That is just a brief summary I won't go into details here.
show us a link to that, rather than ask me to provide a link to prove that what he quoted is wrong. OMGush! u irritate me lets say i finally got such link, what is it supposed to say? maybe "SEARCH ENGINES HAVE NO PROBLEM INDEXING TABLE PAGES"  now let me prove you wrong. search for "skin milk in lagos" the first website will be stylezbeauty.com I developed this site and it was launched this month. The exact page you will land to, has many tables i cant count. the banner image is heavy i am yet to implement search engine friendly urls, ask me, they have started making sales and thats productivity. I put that up at a time i had up to 7 projects i was working on, 3 web projects, 4 standalone apps. and i tell u, dreamweaver was helpful. right now, i am busy and i intend coming back to revamp it. that i think proves that search engines and tables are friends, infact, they talked recently Godaddy.com has 29 tables on its homepage, yet ranks top 5 on the keyword "domains" so why not state facts I rest here as the rest of your quotes are not well thought thru, its no longer a learn learn thing. |
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webdezzi (m)
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For the records: I use CSS the same way i use tables, infact one of my site, firststreamcompany.com is mainly css, fewer tables
but to me, they both have goods and bads.
Not seeing the bad side of CSS cos thats your game does not mean others dont
I use PHP, some use ASP.net, they both have their adv and diasadv when compared
thats does not mean i have to go head against wall for PHP.
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gozzilla (m)
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Nice argument. Everybody has a point the major thing is that what i say might not change you but what you understand.
if Seun with a successful site like nairaland thinks css is not the koko, i wonder how many naija web designer will think so too.
Lets move with the time. If there is a W3c that says css is the future, i bet to believe them. The future is css no one is saying either that table is outdated but simply put, all that nested table makes one wonder is that the best.
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webdezzi (m)
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i got an email alert as a result of a message displayed on site, i will be back
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nitation (m)
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lol. You haven't seen anything. Listen brov, no one is here to proof a point whatsoever. We are here to learn and impact! If its about cracking your application, It would have been done long ago without your notice. Just watch right and learn how to sterilize your inputs.
Less I forget, you are also vulnerable to sql injections.
later
My 2 cent
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webdezzi (m)
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Well, I will like to use this opportunity to invite you to stylezbeauty.com and take it down, I have made backups already. so i need to be sure your claims are correct.
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webdezzi (m)
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the truth is that, u passed in a combo of ; and '
so, i am supposed to get an email which i got. and you get a scary warning message which you got (thats if u will be honest).
i have removed the script so that your blocked IP can access it.
there are some characters you cant type in my url successfully, it will take u to the homepage, same with the signup forms and urls that does not exist.
Now, i am not saying you cant soil it down (thats why i made a backup). but please do it so that we can learn from our mistakes.
The product discussion is one area you can type and submit special characters, yet the door there is locked. we have reasons for allowing special characters there.
Good luck. Nitation and i was wondering why u blotted out the location in that popup? was it photoshop u used or fireworks?
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OmniPotens (m)
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You guys are turning my threads to something else. Hmmm, I won't say anything but keep reading things out here. I'm Learning. Hey, these your XSS stuffs, you had better not used NL for sample again else, I might turn out to do the best I can with your works. Don't arouse hidden threats of hidden personalities. NL has nothing to do with this so why hack it or use it for a sample? @webdezzi Edit that thread now or watch your back for serious snow balls to fall. No hard feelings but a good information. Whoever sees this message first should get you informed. Edit that thread and remove NL from there. I'm waiting to see it edited. Once the life span of my patience expires, I'll welcome you well and make you home. My point is, edit that thread and remove NL or anything about it there. You can sample another of your website there.  |
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yawa-ti-de (f)
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omni:
Some posters in general are like the proverbial squirrel caught with its hand, holding a palm kernel, in a coke bottle - the only way for it to run to safety is for it to let go of the nut but then again, it is too greedy to let go of the nut.
God help us all!
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webdezzi (m)
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i am going to edit that, not for your threats but for some other reasons.
brb.
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nitation (m)
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@webdezzi Like I said earlier, am not here to show my muscles. I am here to learn from those with information and impact to whoever is willing to learn. You don't need to start begging in style. You have actually contradicted yourself. Whoever is interested should read what guru webdezzi said earlier: I got an email alert as a result of a message displayed on site, i will be back Next the truth is that, u passed in a combo of ; and '
so, i am supposed to get an email which i got. and you get a scary warning message which you got (thats if u will be honest).
i have removed the script so that your blocked IP can access it. Then he rounded it off to, I used photoshop/fireworks to edit his website. What a jerk!. Later eyin temiMy 2 ~cent |
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webdezzi (m)
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Dont get me wrong, i am here to learn and at the same time teach where necessary. The moment i realized the thread is no longer a learn learn thing, quote me from above, I rested my case. some days back, Kaspersky and Bitdefender website got soiled, 2 months ago, avast forum was brought down too. so who am i to brag that my website cannot be soiled and moreover css and tables was the bone of contention not soiling As a developer, i take serious precautions and one of them worked in your case. I did not say you didnt attempt the soil, i got an email and in 5 mins i blocked your IP. For security reasons, i wont give it all out but will give you a tip of whats at the background if($_SESSION['hackattempt']){echo "Warning message";} //this displays the warning based on passed in session exit(); // this line ensures u see nothing until u clear your session if(strpos($_SERVER['QUERY_STRING'],";") || strpos($_SERVER['QUERY_STRING'],'"')){ //get if u mess up with my URL mail(" sledgehammer23401@yahoo.com", "soiler","Someone with IP:".$_SERVER['REMOTE_ADDR']); //I get an email, so i will move in to block your ip $_SESSION['hackattempt']=1; //this creates the session variable so that line 1 can get executed header("Location: index.php"); //redirects you exit(); // ensures your code doesnt go beyond this point. } something similar was implemented on my posts i want you to explain the 10+ vulnerabilities and how to discovered them, i tried sql injections on it and it did not work i am here to learn too, but my DNA loves facts. |
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nitation (m)
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At this junction, declare publicly to our fellow NairaLanders that you fail to sanitize your database inputs, you are vulnerable to XSS attack, CSRF, MITM, sql injection, session fixation to name a few at the same time.
Then we know, you are ready to find solution.
my 2 cent
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webdezzi (m)
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lol, u must be a comedian. prove to the world by bringing the website down, I cudnt have cleaned up 10 vulnerabilities in a few hours u know. If you cant bring the site down, then you are just bluffing. vulnerabilities na yam? I nid some rest jo! Happy Valentines day Yawa.  |
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nitation (m)
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lol. Happy Valentine. Don't sleep in stress am not ready to "proof my worth" I am a poor man.
Later people. Running to the club [ party mood ]
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webdezzi (m)
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good 4 u.
am going to sleep tight for 2mrw.
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OmniPotens (m)
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I'm satisfied with your editing the post webdezzi. Shows some of your good conduct. I never threatened you there but was only telling something possible. One more thing here, don't invite threats on your works by asking any of them to be brought down. They could and in no real time. There are lots of calibres of people in here talented in different ways. Your words might put them off to the extent of making them spend their time just trying to bring you down. (Don't call for this kinda invitations- they are not favourable).
@posters
All should get back to the main thing here, "CSS VS TABLES".
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webdezzi (m)
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Thanks Omni, see how you felt when i used nairaland as an example? it's really provoking to have someone do that to me. Why i am calling for the take down is because i spend the best time of yesterday trying to figure out how he got that but no way. I should atleast have a user with that username in my database but i dont, just 2 funny usernames. if he brings it down, i will need to learn from him that which i dont know. the site is still very new and very few are trooping in for now. @nitation, I see you as a little kid who is trying to get fame with photoshop cs4 , but trust me u got busted. If u had a website, i would have used it as a good illustration. @topic I still believe tables are as good as css. |
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mambenanje (m)
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how can you guys say css vs tables  you cant compare css vs tables, they are all complementary. ooh ok maybe you guys mean "css vs tables in layout", but I must say that tables are styled with CSS and if you use css to style your table layout there is nothign bad with that because you wont have to edit every single page to change the styles. In the good old days of the web this is how I was doing pages page1.html <table> <tr> <td bg-color='red'><font color='white'>page heading</font></td> </tr> </table> the code above if you duplicate into many pages will be very difficult to update, if the client decides that the red bg be removed, you do that on every page. this is the table and design that is discouraged but if someone does this <!-- css included in external file with the styles --> <link rel='stylesheet' type='text/css' href='page.css' /> <table> <tr> <td style='page_td_style'>page hading</td> </tr> </table> As long as duplicates of this page can be edited in a single fle 'page.css' there is nothing bad with using such tables in your layout. He who thinks is bad should explain it to me. Tables are bad for layout design because the are difficult to update but if you use css to style your tables, updating is not a problem anymore. Some can say your site will not appear well on smart phones and mobile phones, but even sites done with DIV tags still need special interfaces for mobiles and smart phones I am waiting for your reasons for saying no tables in layout thanks |
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nitation (m)
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@webdezzi
Na your ITK go flip you off the ground. I can clearly see you can't differentiate between photoshop edited image and XSS vulnerable website. Your flipping site is vulnerable, accept the sh*t and find the next available solution. Stop trying to hide behind layers of humour and secrecy!
Nothing is safe online. No matter how error_tracking(); you have, you can't be 100%
My 2 cent
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gozzilla (m)
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The real css battle is going on here come and watch:
Gatefee: free
Venue: Nairaland webmaster section
contenders:
Webdezzi (the table lover) and nitation (the kid hacker)
Referee: Omnipotent
Belt: Bring down webdezzi's page or keep quiet
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nitation (m)
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@gozzilla
Kindly be careful the way you address me on this forum. If you find it so hard to contribute, you can better keep shut and focus your dearly life with your gay partner.
Flipping Fag
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yawa-ti-de (f)
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The issues here are pride and arrogance. we all know what happens after Pride. If it were me, true or false, I would play dumb and thank nitation for coming up with his script. I would also see how much I could learn from him in this regard and use that to make my site even harder to crack. Rather, what we are hearing is, "yeah, so you got in. big deal. why not prove it again. after all, I have backups". If I were nitation (and I am not saying he should do this ), I would, just for webdezzi saying so, visit his site weekly and do a dump of his site just for the heck of it. One thing that kills us as Nigerians, generally speaking: Pride, arrogance and "do you know who I am?" mentality. To me, the mere fact that the site has been hacked is enough to damage all credibility, regardless of impact. Then again, what do I know? Nothing really  |
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*dhtml
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Then again, what do I know? Nothing really Interesting, for someone more knowledgeable than me to say that ? And i really missed out on the bottle-breaking-wars but i assume that is over now. Guys take it easy o, i am here to learn and not to fight. |
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nitation (m)
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No war oo DHTML. Na just some sort of brotherhood disagreement.
@ Yawa
Na wa oo. You wey we dey look up to for more knowledge.
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webdezzi (m)
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@yawa. read my posts and dont take css vs table personal
some days back, Kaspersky and Bitdefender website got soiled, 2 months ago, avast forum was brought down too.
so who am i to brag that my website cannot be soiled
i want you to explain the 10+ vulnerabilities and how to discovered them, i tried sql injections on it and it did not work
i am here to learn too, but my DNA loves facts.
to me, this is over. @ mambenaje, Abi o, e come be like say i be css JJC. @all, get my point, beginners need to know why they are using css and not tables or vice versa Not that tables are bad, Now if folks say, they are bad, let me have a link to that (not articles, cos they are not facts) so i can read and correct myself. |
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yawa-ti-de (f)
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webdezzi,
and when you say I am taking it "personal", are you saying this as a matter of fact, by virtue of the fact that you are a mind reader or based on what you (don't) know? Just curious.
What I am doing is, speaking up against what I perceive as an argument that really shouldn't have been here in the first place. Tables are for presenting tabular data. That is what they were originally made for. The only reason they were abused and used for layout was due to the limitations we as developers had at the time.
As for "newbies", sure it is good for them to know about tables and layout from a historical perspective so that they can appreciate where they are and where they are going. For instance, if I were to teach a class on this, I would start off coding a site with embedded tables. Then to drive home my point, I would code the same site in their presence using DIVs. The only way to really drive home this point, IMHO is to get a layout, code it in tables and code the same site in DIVs. That is what actually made me make the switch in 2005. Seeing is believing to me.
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