Pentecostal/Catholic Marriages: Why the Disagreement?

 

Let's say thing straight here.

I will talk about the Catholic practice of asking Mary, saints and angels to pray for us. The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus in Psalm 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21).

And in Psalm 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2)

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:. Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

Jesus himself warned us not to mess with small children because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven." (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man, Jesus is the only Mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1-4), including those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

I would be willing to bet they do not even examine the prayers we use to 'petition' Mary. Have you ever heard of the word 'intercession'? It is when we ask someone to pray for us. Lets look at a few Bible verses...

      Rom 15:30, "...help me by your prayers to GOD for me."
      Col 1:9, "This is why we too have been praying for you unceasingly."
      1Thes 3:10, "Night and day we pray more and more..."
      2Thes 1:11, "To this end we pray always for you."
      2Thes 3:1, "In conclusion brethren, pray for us..."
      Jam 5:16, "...and pray for one another that you may be saved."
      Rev 8:3-4 "...that he may offer it with the prayers of all the saints..."

The Bible is asking you to pray for one another. Have you ever asked someone to pray for you? Have you ever told someone you will pray for them? Why then, when the name of Mary is introduced, is it not to be asked of her? Was she not a created being like all the rest of us? Why can we ask everyone else to pray for us, but we can't ask it of Mary? Does it not stand to reason that her Son would listen to her and grant her requests?

He turned water into wine at Cana just by Mary making a remark, "They have no wine", Jn 2:3. He was subjected to her in Lk 2:51, and no doubt for many years until His ministry started at age 30. He listens to her now, just as He did then. She must have a lot more influence with Him than any of us do, since she is His mother.

Let us see what Catholics pray.

Have you ever listened to the words of the most used Marian prayer of all, the Hail Mary?

*** "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee." ***
   This is nothing more than the salutation of Gabriel in Luke 1:28.

*** "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb (Jesus)." ***
   That is Elizabeth's greeting to Mary in Lk 1:42.

***"Holy Mary, mother of GOD." ***
   She is a saint which makes her holy, and she is the Mother of GOD, because Elizabeth calls her the 'Mother of Our Lord' in Lk 1:43. Also if you take Jn 1:1 "...and the Word was GOD', and add it to Jn 1:14, "...and the Word was made flesh", GOD was made flesh, and who was His mother? Mary!

*** "Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen." ***
   This is nothing more than petitioning Mary to PRAY FOR US, just like in the Bible verses I presented. Do we 'pray to' Mary, or are we only petitioning her to pray for us?

Now the next question is, 'Yes, but it is repetitious (the Rosary) and that is forbidden by scripture'. (Mt 6:7)

OK, look at the entries listed above which have the asterisk (*) in front of them.

Are not Col 1:9, "This is why we have been praying for you unceasingly...", 1Thes 3:10, "Night and day we pray more and more...", and 2Thes 1:11, "To this end we pray always for you...", repetitious? Is this one of those so called 'Bible Conflicts' you hear about from time to time?

No, not at all. The answer is that the Bible refers to two types of prayer repetition 'Vain', in the manner of heathens, and 'Useful', NOT in the manner of heathens.

The Rosary is not vain repetition. Here is a list of some in each category that you can check in your Bible.

(V) 1King 18:25-29, (U) Isa 6:3, (U) Dan 3:52-90, (V) *Mt 6:7, (U) Mt *26:44, (U) *Lk 6:12, (U) Lk 18:1,9-14,*21:36, (U)*Col 1:9, (U) 1Thes 3:10,5:17, (U) *Jam 5:16, (U) **Rev 4:8

One final note:
Many non-Catholics have the false belief that praying to "dead" people is useless. This is a mis-interpretation of what Holy Scripture teaches us, for the Blessed Virgin Mary and others who have gone on before us are not dead but live forever.

The Scriptures tell us that we pray to God through Jesus in the Holy Spirit -- this is Saint Paul's great insight into the nature of specifically Christian prayer.   

Theologically, Catholics believe that if our prayer is directed to God the Father, we are simultaneously praying to the Son and to the Holy Spirit; if our prayer is directed primarily to Jesus, we are simultaneously praying to the Father and to the Spirit; and if our prayer is directed primarily to the Holy Spirit we are also praying to the Father and the Son.   

Since the Holy Trinity is a divine community of Persons, prayer directed to One of the divine Persons -- Father, Son, Spirit -- reaches the other divine Persons; the Father shares everything with the Son and the Spirit; the Son shares everything with the Father and the Spirit; the Holy Spirit shares everything with the Father and the Son.

So, yes, Catholics pray to Jesus as the Second Person of the Most Blessed Trinity.   

We have many ways, as Catholics, of talking about this aspect of our prayer.   

To be a Christian means, among other things, accepting Jesus into your life.  Mary literally accepted Jesus into her life for when she said "Yes!" to the archangel's invitation and the Holy Spirit overshadowed her, Jesus made His home in her womb.  So, for Catholics Mary is the First Christian, the first human being to accept Jesus Christ into her life.   

As the First Christian, she is, so the speak, the Prototype of what being a Christian means.  In that role, we Catholics feel that Mary has something like a "first among equals" role as exemplar for us.   

So, we Catholics feel very comfortable going to her in prayer for guidance and help since she walked this road of living the Christian life before anybody else.  When we pray to her, we are, in a sense, asking for her wisdom and insight about how to live our Christian lives more perfectly; since she's already done it, we look to her for example, direction and guidance.

Another way that we Catholics think of our practice of praying to Mary is the following.  We are perfectly comfortable as Christians asking other Christians for prayer support when we are confronted by special needs, crises, or stressful circumstances.  Calling up a Christian friend and saying, "Please pray for me, I'm going through a really tough time" makes complete sense to us.   

Christians also believe that death is not the end of life.  Death is a 'door' through which we pass, as we move from one room in our Father's Mansion, the room of this life, to another room in the Lord's House, which is the room of eternal life.  The dead in Christ are surely alive!

 Mary, as the First Christian, is, then, alive in Christ -- sharing the glory of heaven with her Son and all those to whom God has given eternal life.

 So, when we Catholics pray to Mary, we are simply saying that since she is alive in Christ in the glory of heaven, we can go to her, asking for her prayerful support -- in much the same way that we would ask a Christian in our Church community to support us with his or her prayers.

 The fact that Mary is alive in life-beyond-death in no way minimizes her ability to pray.  In fact, we Catholics would say that since Mary is with her Son, her prayers have a special kind of efficacy and power.

Another way that Catholics talk about praying to Mary builds on the idea of a special bond between a parent and a child, and particularly on the bond between a Mother and her Son.  In many human relationships, a mother has a special role in the life of her children.  Mary, being such a magnificent mother, and Jesus, being the Perfect Son, surely had a marvelous and ultimately close relationship.  When we Catholics pray to Mary, we are simply assuming that the closeness between this Mother and her divine Son continues in life-beyond-death, and we are asking this special and wonderful Mother to speak to her beloved and divine Son on our behalf.

A last word about the way Catholics see our prayer to Mary:  When we pray to Mary, we Catholics are, essentially, saying, "Blessed Mary, you are living in the very Presence of God, would you please take my request, my prayer, and put it before God Who chose you to be the Mother of His Son?"  We are acknowledging that, as the Bible says, all generations call her "blessed" precisely because God offered her a unique role as the Mother of Jesus and because she accepted God's invitation.  That intimacy which Mary had with God continues in the glory of heaven.  When we Catholics pray to her, we are simply saying, "Please ask God to hear our prayers now...and at the hour of our death!"

 Does a Catholic HAVE to pray to Mary?  No, we don't HAVE to pray to Mary.  But, praying to Mary is one of the greatest gifts the Catholic Church has to offer us -- so why in the world wouldn't we accept this magnificent gift?!?  While we don't have to pray to Mary, most Catholics WANT to pray to her because she is special to God, special to God's Son, and she, therefore, very special to us!  We never 'worship' Mary -- "worship" is what we give to God alone.  But we do have a very deep love and a very high regard for this blessed woman!

Sometimes, when we pray to Mary, we talk to her. Sometimes, when we pray to Mary, we just think about her and her Son. When we use the Rosary, ...

Why do Catholics pray to Mary? Is it not better to pray directly to God? Why do we call Mary the Mother of God and not the Mother of Jesus? ...

. Protestants could then say, in effect, "even though our beliefs conflict at every turn, and therefore cannot really be true, just look at the even GREATER untruths that exist in Catholicism! Therefore we are in a better place." This argument is about as close as any Protestant can come to justifying the plague of denominations which the original Protestant rebellion spawned, in direct opposition to the will of Christ, Who stated His divine intent that all Christians would be ONE, even as He and His Father are ONE. Protestants therefore do not wage their attacks on traditional Christian truth out of spite or hatred, or even jealousy, but rather out of a desperate quest for a legitimacy which is objectively lacking in their religious tradition. The bizarre accusations they bring against God's Church - worshipping statues, making human beings equal to God, adopting pagan beliefs, etc. might possibly legitimize such a rebellion, if any of it were true.

Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. ...


So let's stop talking bullshit

Eddy Tell
I see that you and I agree. Sorry if  my comment offended you Chris.  Jesus said the Gospel is offensive  to people who don't believe it.  He told his parables knowing that only believers would understand it.   Jesus Luvs you.  I did not make  up this opinon. I am only stating what the Bible says.  Read it for yourself and argue with God about what it says.  It is good to be polite and gentle with people.  But when it comes to salvation we must tell the truth because life on earth is short but eternity is forever.  Eternity is a concept we cannot comprehend in this life.  Find and read the books The Divine Revelation of Heaven, and the Divine Revelation of Hell.  Reading these books  changed my perspective of my faith and life in general. Pray and ask God to reveal his truth to you. 

My experience is that only God can change people .  Jesus loves you!

Read also The Signature of God.  Anger can be good.  Sometimes it drives people to find the truth.  Sometimes it motivates people to move away from tradition and find what God says not what their church says.    Protestant churches are not all Christian. That is why Christians must read the Bible for themselves to check if the church they are going to and watching on TV are really Christian.  A Christian church is one that teaches people to follow Jesus Christ according to the word of God.

I hope the young lady who posted this question is reading this.  This gives her some idea of some of her possible future arguments with her other half.

all this argument wont take us very far. the truth is that problem full ground. either the roman catholic will forgo his beliefs and follow the protestant or vice versa.

Chrisd,  I dare you to put down your Catholic commentaries and read the Bible by itself.  Ask the Holy Spirit to help you understand what you are reading and faithfully read  the Bible daily and then you will begin to understand how to follow Christ.

Now you will be able to have a personal relationship with your Father in Heaven.  Keep in mind that he loves you more than you can understand.

So, what's wrong with Pentecost? I think the most important fault within the entire movement is the religious power and authority most of these denominations and congregations instill within the local pastor -- something that is pandemic within both Pentecostalism and its spiritual descendent, the Charismatic movement. The local pastor has Pope-like powers over the local church, and many Pentecostal/Charismatic pastors rule over their local assemblies like virtual dictators -- many only having church "boards" filled with "yes-men" to satisfy tax authorities. In many of these congregations, the pastor answers to no one -- to no committee, not to the church at large, and not even -- in many cases -- to the denominational organization that credentials him. He is an authority unto himself and to his God, and many Pentecostal/Charismatic/non-denominational church-goers literally believe that his words uttered in sermons, prophecies, etc., are the literal words of God -- as surely as most Christians believe the Bible to be.

hello cdubb77,
I understand how you feel but i will suggest u get married in her church. I believe weddings are usually in the woman's church and if this is so you should do it in her church.  Also, if your marrying a catholic and you intend to live with her you should be able to feel comfortable in her church. I think what troubles we pentecostal much isnt the differences in mood of worship rather its the "what will people say and how will so so & so look at it".  Does it really matter??? Do we live for society or for ourselves.

On the other hand, If your girl is WILLING to get married in your church, you guys can go ahead and then do a marriage blessing in her church, so that her church recognises your marriage too.

Better still you guys can have an evening dinner wedding at a garden, that way, both pastor and priest etc are there


At the end of the day, let it be a decision between u & her and not between you and your pastor or she and her priest.

*love dey do something o*

Amen

cdubb77; congratulations

This was made a long time ago but I'm going to adress the issue that Catholics worship Marry.
Those who say such things obviously know nothing of catholisism and shouldn't speak as if they do. The only reason anyone claims that a Catholic worships Mary is because they are told by a person who also knows nothing of catholisim but claims to. It is a lie that Catholics worship Mary- ask any Catholic and they will assure you they don't. So why would we worship a person who we refuse to say we do? That's not true worship is it?
I'll give you an easier way to understand what the Mary thing is.
(I did not come up with this by the way, a few women that used to be protestant were explaining what they learned. They told how they were told since they were children that Catholics worshipped Mary and saints and were never told what the real meaning was)
So we're going to look at God as our king right now, we are the people of his land and we look to his knights for protection just as he does. When a king sends out a knight to serve for him and the knight goes out to do as he is told and succeeds, the king honors him. The rest of us in turn are expected to honor him or else we are being disrespectful to not only the knight but the king. There is no fault in honoring those who lived their lives as best they could under the word of God, they are to be looked up to and immitated. Mary is very similar to this, we must honor her above all other people, she is our ultimate mother and Jesus expects us to treat her with respect and honor just as he did. She is not worshiped in prayer, we send our prayers to her so that she may pray for us because she is completely pure and her prayers are pure. We oiften ask people we know to pray for a loved one who is suffering or things of that nature, and so if you claim that asking Jesus' own mother to do this for us is worship, all of your religions are guilty of worshiping people other than Christ.

And please understand that judging anyone, including those of another religion is a sin it is a pity that the branches of christianity today cannot lay off each other and look at their similarities instead of fighting over differences. We do not know everything, if we were meant to know it all Jesus would have told us, we must be confident that he will forgive any misunderstandings that any of us have because none of us are totally right. You must also be willing to admit that you are not supirior to another just because you think your religion is right and theirs is wrong, because you have no reason to believe so other than bias critisism.

I thought the Pentecostal Church included direct contact with the Holy Spirit, and that it was appropriate to ask for answers to the important questions in life, like who to marry, what career to pursue, where to live, etc. as well as asking for physical/emotional/spiritual healing. Is this correct?

I'm wondering if you have had any experiences where you actually witnessed first hand someone getting guidance or being healed. Have you experienced these things? Not havnig visited a Pentecostal Church before (but thinking about it) I assumed that as soon as you had a question, and especially if someone in the Church was trying to manipulate you, you would go to the best person who can receive guidance from contact with the Holy Spirit and ask them to help you by receiving what you should do. Did you try this?

I would appreciate hearing your answers if you feel good about answering, I believe in the Holy Spirit, and I would like to believe that it can help us in our practical every day lives, even though I have no evidence of that. I was hoping the Pentecostal Church could provide that evidence, but now I'm beginning to wonder.

Learning a lot from this place.

Catholics believe in speaking in tongues too, we just believe that there should be an interpretation for it as directed in the Bible, all else is just gibberish. Trust me I have spoken in tongues in a Church and it's been gibberish. I had no idea what I was saying, I started speaking because the pastor kept pushing my head and screaming at me "Speak, Speak" so I started speaking and he was all "Oh praise the Lord" When I read the passage pertaining to speaking in tongues, I thought back to that day, and now I laugh because Pastor had no idea what he was doing.

I feel bad, because I know that there are people, even in the Pentecostal Church, that speak in the Spirit, but believe me, it's not everybody. What you say needs to be understood by someone in there.

I would really like someone to point out to me how it is that Catholics worship Mary. Giving honour is not worship o, thanks.
Mary is not God and shouldn't be worshipped and anyone who does is definitely not a Catholic. Forgive us for saying good job to the woman who said yes to God. Forgive us for viewing her a virtuous woman, forgive us for viewing her as the mother of our saviour. Forgive us for saying thank you for saying yes and trusting in God. Forgive us for saying good job sticking with your son at his birth, at his dedication, at the begininnig of his ministry, at the bottom of the cross when he died, in the room when the Holy Spirit descended upon everyone. Forgive us for applauding her for not freaking out when the angel appeared to her at the age of 16. How many of you will even stay in the room and listen? I can assure you I will be scared and probably soil my pants (yeah too much info, but it's the truth)

Forgive us for giving the woman a little bit of credit.

Any woman, mostly mothers who do not have reverence for Mary should hide her face in shame. How would you feel if your child died for a crime he did not commit?

Catholics look at the whole picture when understanding God, we don't just pick one passage run with it and contradict ourselves with the other. All scripture work together, some explain in greater detail. One may state something and the other explains it and gives examples of it. It does not contradict itself, but the interpretations by those who know it all can be contradictory. There are those who don't even want to see the bigger picture and turn a blind eye to it. There are those who don't understand that Christ spoke in parables a lot and can't understand the parables. They interpret the parables literally (lol, good luck).

Catholics also know why it is things are done a certain way. Catholics do things and know why they do it.

My babe is a Pentecostal, I asked him what Pentecost is. In all seriousness he proceeds to tell me, only to tell me that Pentecost is a church and what they do is they praise God and speak in tongues. I still haven't stopped laughing till today. He always looked down on the Catholic church and say we don't worship God. Well I say he doesn't know the God that he worships and doesn't know why it is he does what he does to worship God.

@Topic

There isn't much of a difference in Pentecostal and Catholic, one is just a bit subdued and the other hyper. Just like the personalities of a couple can compliment each other well, one may be relaxed the other may be loud, but they love each other and make it work.