Recent discussions on the forum and others seem to refer to our God as the same as allah, all in the spirit of interfaith understanding. This is a very dangerous inference and people need to beware. Some muslims have said all sort about horrible things about Jesus in view of the recent statement of the Holy Pontiff, yet we will not carry arms or kill but we will pray and still peacefully defend our doctrine.
Our God, Jehovah, Yahweh, the Alpha and Omega who came down to earth to redeem us from our sins as Jesus the Christ, is not the same as allah.
(1) Why do muslim face the east to pray? they say they are facing mecca!!, but even muslims in far east still face east (ideally they should face west if they want to face mecca; and the ones in north pole and south pole should face maybe south-east and north-east respectively if they want to face mecca) But they all face east all over the world- it is not that they are facing mecca but rather worshipping the sun. Read Ezekiel Chapter 8 vs 14 to 17.[i][/i]
(2) Why is the islamic symbols the crescent (half moon) and a star?
(3) Why do muslims always wait for the appearance of moon before they can start or end their so called ramadan at this time and age of 21st century? The reason is because their's is an idolatrous religion that worship the consterllations, i.e the sun, the moon and the stars, no wonder the constant urge to violence and shedding of blood, because sacrifice must be made to their master in "hades".
(4) Do you know that the black cloth used to cover the big stone in mecca has it's route in ancient egyptian magic arts? All this takes a deeper spiritual understanding and we must continue to pray for the salvation of their souls and continue to bombard your neighbouhood, Europe, Nigeria, Africa, the middle east etc with gospel of Jesus through satellite TV, missionary works, evangelism and charity etc. Their souls are still precious to God and we must take the gospel of Jesus to them. Pray for your muslim friends, for their eyes which has been blinded from knowledge of truth by the rulers of darkness of this world to open. Remember, JEHOVAH is NOT allah!! don't be deceived!!. Remember he is a jealous God, and we must have no other God beside him; this also means don't call Him by a name that is not His, or think He is who he is not. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem! Shalom

Hmmmm, Those are words but . . .  .I need more, could you send me more info on the above subject via my e-mail? Thanks.
You could gain deeper knowledge on islam from world class christian scholars on  http://www.bethinking.org/categories.php?CategoryID=10 (note that this site is operated by deep and scholarstic christians; they reveal Islam in a new dimension).

This is some interesting information.

Whats in a Name?Is Jehovah,Yahweh the same as Allah who knows,but the real question is what about the myriad of names given to the Christian God in Africa?

Is Chukwu,Chineke,Obasi,Oluwa etc used by Africans are these names the same as Jehovah or Yahweh?If it is,I need some proofs.

Cheers.

mrmayor:

Whats in a Name?Is Jehovah,Yahweh the same as Allah who knows,but the real question is what about the myriad of names given to the Christian God in Africa?
Is Chukwu,Chineke,Obasi,Oluwa etc used by Africans are these names the same as Jehovah or Yahweh?If it is,I need some proofs.
Cheers.

Dear mrmayor:
There are three primary Names of God: (1) Elohim, (2) Jehovah or Yahweh, and (3) Adonai. However, this is different from what or how different languages call God in their language. However, in the African languages you referred to, they are worshipping and referring to the same God in 'their' own language since He wants us to have a personal relationship. Unlike those who can only pray or read their holy book in their 'official' religious language.
Our God i.e the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, God of Jacob, the holy one of Israel, when Moses asked Him who He is before going to the Israelites in Egypt (ref Exodus 3 vs 13 - 15) God replied that he is the I AM THAT I AM (i.e the self existing /self sufficient God), He further identified Himself as Jehovah in Ex 6 vs 1. He told Abraham that He is the El-Shaddai i.e the All powerful God.(ref Gen 17 vs 1- These are the self identities of God with each of the names a reference to His awesome characteristic. Because God reveals Himself in His names, Christians should understand them in order to serve Him better.It is this same God who we've accepted as our God through faith in Jesus Christ that Yorubas refer to in our language as Olorun, Eledumare, and Ibos call Him Chineke in their language etc. I hope you understand better. God bless you.

Chxta's World

As a rule, I tend to avoid making comments on religious issues since by my very nature I tend to inspire provocative debate which as some of you who have met me (online or in real life) would have known by now. You see, religious issues much more than sports, ethnic or national issues tend to inspire some of the most irrational and passionate reactions from people, and I'd rather avoid those since I was involved in a particularly violent fight with a Jehovah's witness (would you believe that?) some 14 years ago. I think it is reasonable to fight over Milan-Juve, or over Nigeria-Cameroon, or over Igbo-Yoruba, such fights no matter how violent they become cannot match up to what people are capable of doing in God's name.

This would be my first post in the religion forum, and hopefully my last. I believe that this thread came about as a Christian's reaction to what is happening as a result of the recent comments made by the Pope. On that issue, I think it is ignorance that is causing the over-reaction of not a few Muslims, and I would leave this one to be handled by other writers. I will try my possible best to ignore whatever outburst what I am about to say will provoke.

The subject under discussion is whether Yahweh or Jehovah is the same as Allah. My answer to that is yes. You see, this is a matter of lingua, not a matter of religion (which is why I am posting in the first place). I once read a cute little book titled Who is This Allah written by some fellow who had converted to Christianity from Islam. His prognosis prompted me to do some research into the matter, and what I came up with closely matched what you are about to see:

The word Allah is derived from a contraction of the Arabic words al- (the) and ilah (deity, masculine form) — al-ilah meaning "the god". Cognates of the name "Allah" exist in other Semitic languages, including Hebrew and Aramaic.

Both Muslim and non-Muslim scholars often translate "Allah" directly into English as "God"; and Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians refer to Allah as God. However, some Muslim scholars feel that "Allah" should not be translated, because they perceive the Arabic word to express the uniqueness of "Allah" more accurately than the word "god", which can take a plural "gods", whereas the word "Allah" has no plural form. This is a significant issue in translation of the Qur'an.

Centuries before the time of Muhammad, the word "Allah" was used by Jews (they also used the cognant Eloah) and pagan tribes in the Arabian peninsula to signify the chief deity. Much in the same way as Chukwu was used in Igbo to signify the chief deity (I wonder why then Chukwu and Allah are so different since they both transmutated from chief deity to only deity?)

The Hebrew word for deity, El or Eloah, was used as an Old Testament synonym for Yahweh, which is the proper name for God according to the Tanakh. The Aramaic word for God is Elaha and Alaha (Syriac), which comes from the same Proto-Semitic word (*ʾilah-) as the Arabic and Hebrew terms; Jesus is described in Mark 15:34 as having used the word on the cross, with the ending meaning "my", when saying, "My God (Eli), my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?"

What I am trying to point out here is this: Hebrew and Arabic belong to the same class of languages (Semitic languages), so they would always have similarities in almost all apects (Read: Mein haus ist braun in German and My house is brown in English which are both Teutonic languages).

Dear Chxta: well it's quite unfortunate if you decide that this will be your last post on the issue. However, you do not appear to understand the issue at hand. The issue is not what God is called in various languages but WHO you are referring to when you call the name of a god in any language. You see 'ogun' is a god in yorubaland (god of iron, kind of a deity) but he is not the God of Abraham, God of Isaac and God of Jacob. sango is also a god in yoruba language referring to a god of thunder but he is NOT the same god as Yahweh.
This is not a matter of literary translation of names but of WHO or WHICH god you refer to by a particular name. Do you understand? I think it's simple enough.

Nah, Allah and Jehovah are different people. Ask the Muslims, they'll tell you.

Havita,

Sir,you didn't answer the question posed,Is Chukwu,Tamuno,Obasi the same as Jehovah?I can understand your conflict with Islam and Muslims but if you are asking a straight forward intellectual question you have apply the same logic to different sames given to A Supreme God/Deity in African Languages.

@Chxta,

As much as I don't like saying am your most critical fan,I must say you hit the nail on the head with your reply,I still remember the conversation between the missionary and an elder in Achebe's Things Fall Apart.When this white man tried to convert this African elder by telling about a God that created everything in the world,the elder replied that they know him and his name is called Chukwu.They both agreed that there was a Supreme God their difference being their  intermediary,the African believed you can approach God by going through the smaller gods and spirits of land while the white man believed the Jesus way.

This is quite interesting, and many thanks to Havila and KDK for your insightful inputs (no less grateful to others so far).

It's not just the names but the identities behind the names. The *Allah* of Islam is not the God of the Bible who revealed Himself in a covenant relationship to the Jews, through whom salvation should come to the ends of the earth. So, how important is an identity? Let's think -

The words 'Lord' and 'Master' in religious language is used for God, the Creator of the world. Ask Muslims who is Lord, and they'll quickly respond: "Allah!" But way back in early Jewish history, the Israelites faced a temptation to confuse who was really "Lord". Why? Because, the word "Ba'al" simply means "Lord" or "Master" in the Semitic language of the Canaanite people around them. So, if in Hebrew the Jews called Him "Adon" (meaning the very same thing as "Lord" or "Master", would anyone be fooled into thinking that Ba'al and Adon were the same being/deity worshipped in different languages and cultures?

The Bible refutes such a notion in bold letters, because "Baal" (or the plural variant 'Baalim') is not the same being as "Adon"- "And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim. . . And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth" (Jdg. 2:11, 13).

Elijah's challenge years later showed that true prophets are not fooled by 'it's only a name' game. "And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word." Jehu's action also showed that "Baal" was not the 'Lord' or 'Master' as "Adon" whom Israel worshipped: "Thus Jehu destroyed Baal out of Israel" (2 Kings 10:28).

Without wanting to offend any people group, the variant names or appellations of God in various languages reveals the same thing. When people call "Chukwu" or "Oluwa" in African Churches, they know who they're referring to - the God who is called "Father" by those who believe in Jesus Christ the Son. But if those calling on "Chukwu" mean a different deity from the "Father" whom Jesus came to reveal, then you have your answer - the name may be the same, but the identities behind the "name" reveals different "god(s)". If a 'Supreme deity' is different from the One who has revealed Himself as "Jehovah", does the name make it the same? Ask those who call on the various African deities - they will tell you to whom they refer.

Fast forward to the New Testament. Christians are also in danger of confusing who the true Jesus is: "For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him" (2 Cor. 11:4). Who is this being masquerading as "Jesus" but is actually "another Jesus"?

It is a "Jesus" different from the Biblical Christ. It is a "Jesus" who did not die on the Cross, who is not the Saviour; who is a "slave" to some form of *Allah*; who denies the deity of Christ, the divine Fatherhood of God, the forgiveness of sins by His atoning work, and the Lordship of Jesus. This "another Jesus" pretends to be the Biblical Christ, but denies the true identity of the real Christ in saying that God has no Son, even though the Old Testament shows clearly that the Son was mentioned (Psa. 2:12).

For Arabic-speaking Christians, they know to Whom they're referring when they call upon "Allah" - but no true Christian from the Arabic-speaking world confuses Him with the *Allah* of the Qur'an. We are careful to point this out, and that's why I applaud Havila's effort, and join in praying for Muslims who have been given a "gospel" that presents "another Jesus" with "another spirit".

The *Allah* of Islam is not the God of the Bible.

4get_me:

The *Allah* of Islam is not the God of the Bible.

Neither is Chukwu,Obasi,Chineke etc,if these names are not in the bible they can't be the same,thats using your logic.The concept of the son of God was alien to the new African converts to Christianity hence the name Jesus does not have an African equivalent.African languages only transfered the name they had for a supreme God to the Christian God,they didn't do that to Jesus because their supreme god didn't have a son.

Arabic language being related to Aramaic had a name for Jesus (Issa or Isa).

I'm sorry to disappoint you, mymayor - first because I didn't see my inputs as mere "logic". When you point out an issue from Scripture, that is not mere "logic" as you put it (even though I have no qualms about anyone's use of it).

However, I'm not so sure where you get you ideas from. How did Christianity reach African converts to Christianity if the concept of the "Son of God" was alien to them? An what you mean by the an African equivalent of the name Jesus is a bit quizzical. Try "Jesu" for a start; and whatever else they "transferred" still does not negate the fact that the identities behind the names are not confused by whoever were using them.

Now, it is interesting that the "supreme god" of these Africans didn't know Jesus as the Son of God simply because their supreme god had no son. Great. Leave the logic for now and turn to the Scriptures. What "Bible" would they have been reading if they didn't have the following verses in them? --

1 John 4:15 - "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God."

1 John 5:5 - "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

1Jo 5:9-11 - "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and[b] this life is in his Son[/b]."

What is the message of Christianity? That men might have life by God's grace. Where is this 'life' found? The Bible says it is in God's Son. Tell me how the "African converts to Christianity" could have heard all about Jesus, become "Christians" and yet still miss the divine Sonship of Jesus - with all the texts in the Bible that state the fact?

Maybe I didn't follow your line of thought; then please forgive me.

Your last line carries weight in so far as the Arabic-speaking Christians know that the Jesus/Isa/Issa they call upon is not the "another Jesus" of the Qur'an whose crucifixion and divine Sonship are there denied.

In retrospect, I think we're saying the same thing. . .lol. No mind me o jare - my colleagues in the office are reading as well, and my attention has been called to this line in yours:

mrmayor:

Neither is Chukwu,Obasi,Chineke etc,if these names are not in the bible they can't be the same,thats using your logic.

Bros, no vex.

Enjoy.

@The christians; You conveniently forgot that Jesus, at least his mother's lineage is from the children of Israel. He preached to this group without going outside its bounds. He asked his followers to do the same.

Through all of this, you forgot that Ismail was before Isiaq, the grandfather of the children of israel. Further, the Arabs, who are the children of Ismail, by the fact that ismail was before Isiaq are older in the lineage of Ibrahiim, their fathe. Ibrahiim was from Iraq. All of these, you all have amnisia about. Good.

The Africans are giving us, the name of God as if they have a signed contract with the Almighty. They say the Muslims are idol worshippers. Yet you have never seen in any Masjid any picture, a graven Image and/or a representation. It is forbidden in Islam to make, sell or by any object that has a soul. Yet the christians stooped so low to have a diaper on the botton of an innocent child,who the nicknamed Millenium Jesus in 1999/2000.

I pity your ignorance as i pity mine. At least, i am working on mine. But you are so dead to your complete lost of sense of sensibility, that you are telling us about Allah not being God!.

At least, Muslims respect Moses, Jesus (AS) and all other true prophets of God. If Moses is the leader of paradise, the muslims will enter Paradise because we believe in his prophethood. Will the chrsitans enter paradise if this is the case.

If Jesus (AS) is the leader of paradise,we muslims will enter paradise with him because we believe in his prophethood. Afterall, he called himself a Prophet. Will the Jews enter paradise with him.

If Muhammad (AS) is the leadre of paradise, we Muslims will enter paradise with him. We believe him to be a prophet of God. Will the jews and christians enter with him. The Muslims have all options to enter paradise, while christians and jews have limited options, at best.

Some christians and jews will say that Allah is referring to moon god. No. Allah is the God of every creation. The moon is a creation of God. Muhammad splitted the moon as a signof his prophethood. This was by the permission of Allah. Maybe, you people, the journey come lately to the scene of Mankind should take a good account of your stocks. Even the ones who said that they are Yorubas do not even know that their bloodline is from this same Arabs in Makka.

What islam took away from the arab, the idol worshipping is still within the Yorubas. You will find out who is telling the truth in the day of Judgement. unfortunately, for the liars, it will be too late.

@olabowale,

Now this makes my day!! Thank you so much in reminding me to pity my ignorance as you pity yours.

The fact is this: is it not by seniority of Ishmael over Isaac that God called people to salvation. "Salvation is of the Jews" - so said Jesus (John 4:22) and all the prophets agree, because God had told Abraham long before that : "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice" (Gen. 22:18). Remember also that God had said to Abraham - "for in Isaac shall thy seed be called" (Gen. 21:12), and not in Ishmael. So, Jesus Christ descended from the lineage of Isaac, and not from Ishmael. Remember also that Ishmael's mother was an Egyptian slave/maid, and Isaac could not claim to have been an Egyptian.

I like your last line:

olabowale:

You will find out who is telling the truth in the day of Judgement. unfortunately, for the liars, it will be too late.

That's true - too late it will be for those who deny what the Bible has said about Jesus: His divine Sonship (read the Psalms which the Qur'an proclaims came from *Allah*, especially Psalm 2:12), His crucifixion (Psalm 22:14 & 16), His resurrection, His life and ministry in the Gospels - and discover the truth today for yourself!! Don't wait until it is too late on Judgement Day!! God bless.

Enjoy!

@4get_me: Thank you. Insha Allah, not that it is only very late for me, it is compounded that I ask Allah the Almighty to let me die only in submission to His Will, in Islam. Therefore it is too, too and very very absolutely very late for me.

I like it like that. I shall never bow to any creation, when the Creator is the Only One that I bow to.

@olabowale,

It isn't late for any man still breathing and alive - unless you make it "too, too and very very absolutely very late" for yourself, and still be liking it like that.

We as Christians do not bow to any creature or creation - and we have consistently shown from the Bible and the Biblical prophets that the Qur'an acknowledges, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Unless you deny what the Qura'n said about the Psalms of David and still "like it like that" in your denial, you're not in a comfort zone - so take care and do the only right thing a sane man would do: trust in the Son - just as Psalm 2:12 says.

You have nowhere addressed the points I raised about the angels who compared themselves to the Creator in the Qur'an. So, if those angels were claiming to have done the same work of creating man, as I referenced earlier (Q.15:26 - "We created man from sounding clay", those angels were claiming the same thing the Qur'an forbids - joining associates with God. They are creations of God; so by accepting and buying into Muhammad's tales, you're making a big mistake by bowing to these same creatures who have declared to be your creator[b]s[/b] and pretending to be *Allah*! I hope you don't still "like it like that" when you read what those 'angels' have said in that verse.

No angel is worthy to take the place of the Creator, or to claim the same majesty and work of the Creator. Jesus is the very Word of God through whom all things were created. For the Bible testifies of this when it said: "All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3). That is because in the OT prophecy, Isaiah called Him the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6).

Jesus is not a creation - He is the very Creator of the ends of the earth. That's why we praise Him and bow to Him; for "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phillipians 2:10-11).

It's not "too, too and very very absolutely very late" for you - while you still breathe and live, you can know the wonderful love of God by faith in Jesus Christ. That's what Psalm 2:12 says - "trust in Him." Will you do it today??

Blessings.

@4get_me: Thanks brother. I no want it. This is my best. I am trying to say that created is not my Creator. I worship only the Creator. Nothing else.

olabowale:

@4get_me: Thanks brother. I no want it. This is my best. I am trying to say that created is not my Creator. I worship only the Creator. Nothing else.

You worship a creator that has no soul, one that has NEVER spoken directly to his so called slaves except through a 7th century quraish sword weilding bandit! A creator who is has eyes but cannot see, one that cannot heal, cannot raise the dead, is not capable of love, shows no mercy, forgiveness is not in his dictionary!
A creator who decieves his slaves into believing in the existence of some imaginary fairytale called paradise, a place they are not sure exists. A creator that revels in drunken revelry and sexual debauchery, a creator that cannot be called upon in times of trouble, one that cannot save, one who does not protect neither delivers!

A creator who requires his subjects to fight for him, one who's message has to be spread by force because he has no power to convict, a creator who cannot locate the gospel he claims to have "sent down" and "confirmed", a creator who has trouble remembering earlier commands and has to keel abrogating his earlier instructions to appease his slaves.
A creator who thrives on shedding innocent blood, one who has no shred of pity neither regards those he claims to have created. A creator who shares no special bond of sonship and kingship with his slaves, one who delights in decieving others!

What a creator to envy!

@olabowale,

olabowale:

@4get_me: Thanks brother. I no want it. This is my best. I am trying to say that created is not my Creator. I worship only the Creator. Nothing else.

No offences to you, and I'll very much wish and pray for you to know the Creator - and worship Him alone in spirit and in truth, as Jesus said. I'm glad that you're confessing now that those angels/creatures who claimed in the Qur'an to have created man (Q.15:26 - "We created man from sounding clay" are not your creator(s)! God bless you so very much for that bold assertion, for no creature is worthy to claim what is due alone to God Almighty who alone is the Creator.

Please, take time off and look into the other issues raised in my rejoinders, and God enrich your understanding more than I can say here to you. Blessings.

4get_me: Have you heard this statement: Awa la le ko o. Another; Awa la wanbe. The speaker is speaking about himself, alone. The British royal family members and all royal person around the world use prural term for when each is talking about him/herself.

How then do you expect that God will be less in Qualifying and showing His majestic Identity. Read Qur'an, for the first time. Your eyes will open.

Jehovah and allah are not the same with solid proofs to back it up. In the Holy Bible, Jesus Christ Is the Son of God, while the koran does not recognize the Deity of Jesus Christ. Cant be the same

olabowale:

4get_me: Have you heard this statement: Awa la le ko o. Another; Awa la wanbe. The speaker is speaking about himself, alone. The British royal family members and all royal person around the world use prural term for when each is talking about him/herself.

@olabowale,

It's a fine morning here, and I trust you had a good evening last night.

Both quotes in Yoruba are well understood, and the analogy of the British royal family you tried to offer for the polytheism in Islam does not fit well into the corners. First, you guys persistently pander that weathered tale from one Imam who tried to make excuses for these lapses without checking out what he was doing.

Second, did you guys not say that in the 112 chapter of the Qur'an nothing compares to *Allah* in defence of his uniqueness? This is what you said not so long ago:

olabowale:

God is so unique that He declares His uniqueness in the 112 Chapter of the Qur'an. You have never seen anything compared to Him.

If there has never been anything compared to God, why now are you soliciting that weathered appeal of an analogy that does not apply, by saying:

olabowale:

How then do you expect that God will be less in Qualifying and showing His majestic Identity.

Excuse me, sir, but you can't have both legs on either side of the highway - it's dangerous. Those creatures in the Qur'an were not qualifying *Allah's* majestic identity if they were claiming equal status of having directly created man just as the Creator Himself would do. Read it again: "We created man from sounding clay" (Q.15:26). Do you really want me to believe that your creator(s) was/were angels - did angels create you? Remember that only He who is the Creator is worthy of being called "Creator" - nothing compares to Him, and I don't expect any analogy to impugn or sully the majesty of the Creator.

Thirdly, if Muslims actually believe in all the Biblical prophets before Muhammad according to what the Qur'an states, then let me leave you a few texts of what those Biblical prophets stated in defence of God's prerogative as Creator. In particular, since the Qur'an attests the authenticity of the Psalms of David, notice what the inspired Psalmist said as well -

Psalm 100:3
"Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is He that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are His people, and the sheep of His pasture."

Psalm 86:9
"All nations whom Thou hast made shall come and worship before Thee, O Lord; and shall glorify Thy name."

Psalm 96:5
"For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens."

Psalm 104:24
"O LORD, how manifold are Thy works! in wisdom hast Thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches."

Psalm 119:73
"Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn Thy commandments."

Isaiah 44:24
"Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by Myself."

Psalm 139:14
"I will praise Thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are Thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well."

Psalm 146:5-6
"Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God: Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever."

I could go on and on supplying you with numerous verses from the Bible that show that God and God alone is the Creator and no creature ever claimed to have created man or any other part of the world as the Qur'an purports. In fact, if it is okay for *Allah* in the Qur'an to associate himself with angels who share his glory in claiming to have created man; God in the Bible refutes such a notion and statutorily says:

"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." (Isa 42:.

So, you see that while the Qur'an tries to say that *Allah* is unique and nothing compares to him, yet he still lets mere angels claim equal status with him by arrogating the work of creation to themselves - "We created man from sounding clay." Where in the Bible is it said that any angel created man or any part of the world? Your British royal family and Yoruba analogies do not fit the corners, I'm sorry to say.

olabowale:

Read Qur'an, for the first time. Your eyes will open.

I have started reading the Qur'an, and it shows from the fact that I reference my arguments from texts in the same Qur'an. Guess what? My eyes are now open to so many issues we've been taking for granted about what Islam actually is - and that is what I've been apealling to you about, that you should investigate the claims of Muhammad in the Qur'an and see that he made denials that only leaves Muslims shortchanged or cheated of the real truth.

In fair exchange, have you read the Bible, especially the very Biblical prophets that the Qur'an says Muslims should accept without distinction or difference? Please read the Bible with an open heart and let Jesus Christ prove God's mercy and love to you.

Blessings.

@4get-me: About Angels being part of the Creator )S), you dod not hear that from me. Neither will you read it from the Qur'an. You must be confused. Probably, you need to open your mind.

First, it is clear and accepted, even by the enemies of Islam that Muhammad said that Allahsent revelation to him. Allah sent the revelation throught Angel Gabrael. Angel Gabrael repeated what he heard from his Lord, word for word to Muhammad. Muhammad memorized and dictated the same thing, word for word to his community and the scribes wrote them down, exactly.

The community used this exact revelation and passed it down, generation after generation. the chain has not been broken, even up to this present day.

This continum is what the christian hierrachy and with the edging on of the Jews are complaining about Islam on. They want reformation of the Qur'an. What they mean is this; change a little here and there.

No. Islam is not for sale. However some muslims are for sale. So the category of hypocracy emerged and you will find a chapter in the Qur'an about this.

The plural pronoun or majestic pronoun is commonly used. I use it to dignify myself with my wife and my family members. This is a pronoun to impress the important of the speaker. The Yoruba kings often use it. Again, read the Qur'an for the first time. You must clear your mind of all encumbrances. Then God will guide you aright.

@olabowale,

So far it's wonderful that we've managed an amicable exchange of ideas in our discourses. I trust this will continue and lead to some good fruit.

Let me assure you that I'm not confused at all. All I did was to open the Qur'an and read what it says before asking questions. We are reasoning adults, and I guess that if anyone turned the pages of the Bible and found the same words as "We created man from sounding clay," Christians would long have been denounced as polytheists per excellence. But no, those words are found instead in the Qur'an, word for word.

It is interesting, though, that you've acknowledged the very same thing that we've been trying to tell our Muslims friends:

olabowale:

First, it is clear and accepted, even by the enemies of Islam that Muhammad said that Allahsent revelation to him. Allah sent the revelation throught Angel Gabrael. Angel Gabrael repeated what he heard from his Lord, word for word to Muhammad. Muhammad memorized and dictated the same thing, word for word to his community and the scribes wrote them down, exactly.

So, *Allah* did not send down any "Book" to Muhammad afterall, but only sent down some "revelation" through an angel - and at the end of the day it is correct therefore to say that the Qur'an was written down by men - because, as indeed you acknowledged, "the scribes wrote them down"!

Of greater import, however, is the fact that "Angel Gabrael repeated what he heard from his Lord, word for word to Muhammad." In other words then, *Allah* in the Qur'an is saying that there are several besides him who joined themselves to him in creating man, not so? I quote it once more, and according to you, this is what *Allah* said - "We created man from sounding clay" (Q.15:26). So, if *Allah* in the Qur'an is saying that "We created man", then by direct inference there are several creator[b]s[/b] in the Qur'an.

Angel Gabrael only repeated what he heard from his lord *Allah*, and the same *Allah* said "We created man". Question: who then created - *Allah* or several besides him? You really can't have it both ways, because language in such matters should be clear enough to be understood.

olabowale:

The community used this exact revelation and passed it down, generation after generation. the chain has not been broken, even up to this present day.

Don't forget that there was a broken chain when the third Caliph Uthman burnt some "corrupt" copies of the Qur'an. Why did he do that if there was nothing wrong with those copies he burnt?

olabowale:

This continum is what the christian hierrachy and with the edging on of the Jews are complaining about Islam on. They want reformation of the Qur'an. What they mean is this; change a little here and there.

I don't know how many "christian hierrachy" or Jews are calling for a reformation of the Qur'an. If you ask me, I would say a big "NO" - don't reform the Qur'an; rather, let the reader discover for himself that Muhammad actually shortchanged his followers with his version of a "god" that says "We created man."

olabowale:

No. Islam is not for sale. However some muslims are for sale. So the category of hypocracy emerged and you will find a chapter in the Qur'an about this.

You're correct, uncle Olabowale - I've seen the sell-outs in the Qur'an and in real life. Such is life, you know - because there are, sadly, sell-outs and hypocrites even in Christianity.

olabowale:

The plural pronoun or majestic pronoun is commonly used. I use it to dignify myself with my wife and my family members. This is a pronoun to impress the important of the speaker. The Yoruba kings often use it. Again, read the Qur'an for the first time. You must clear your mind of all encumbrances. Then God will guide you aright.

So, afterall *Allah's* uniqueness in the 112th chapter of the Qur'an is without weight, if he could be compared to anything - including men who speak in general terms, not so? Let's make it as direct as can be: who actually created man in the Qur'an: "We created man" or "I created man"?? You could speak as so pleases you when referring to your family; but you cannot pass the same rule in matters relating to the prerogative power of God as "Creator". From the Qur'an, I might as well say "They created man in sounding clay" - would that statement be correct, and why not??

@4get_me: Which is more dignifying when a person of importance refer to him/her person as I or We?
If you can answer this without any ambiguity, you will have the right answer.

God the Almighty used He for Himself. Is this because He is a male. No. The masculine gender is stronger than the feminine gender. Yet God is not a male or female. But is describing Himself to mankind whose knowledge is in the gender maleversus female. So the stronger gender is chosen. Now that we agree, we can then move forward.

No one has seen God face to face. So, Angel Gabrael was a medium between that Allah the Almighty chosed between Himself and His man prophets, Noah, Jesus and Muhammad, etc.
Muhammad also went to heaven and came back. He had an audience without Gabrael with his Lord. Yet he did not see Allah. He said there is a veil of light between him and Alr Rahman. The depth of that veil of light is with Allah alone.

As to the Book, all religious books, the new and old testaments are supposed to contain revelations. Except that the Muslims state that these two books of revelations are corrupted. You should ask your knowledgeable people in religion. they will tell you.

If you read anything with some kind of facts about the compilation of the Qur'an you will be amazed of your findings;
The revelation lasted for about 23 years.
The first 13 years was simply to destroy multiplicity of god. Unity of God as ONE GOD the Almighty was established.
The last 10 years was partially used to give instructions and commandments.

As every revelation comes to Muhammad (AS), its heart was able to take it in. It was inscribed on his heart by Allah.
The scribes in his community by his instruction wrote then down. There were many copies of each revelation.
The society memorized it as well.

The community used it for all types of occasions, including when they meet socially and dispersed from each other/one another.
When Salah was prescribed to the muslims, they used it.
All of the above remain the system of preservation in Islam up to this present time.

Every Ramadan, Muhammad and Gabrael (AS) recite what ever qur'an was , one time each to each other.
The last year that Muhammad lived, in that Ramadan, Muhammad (AS) and Gabrael (AS) recited the whole Qur'an to each other two times each. Muhammad (AS) remarked that this Ramadan's recitation was different

Soon , before the next ramadan, after the hajj of that year Muhammad (AS) died. However, all revelations which make up the Qur'an were revealed. Al lwas written down and memorized and used in religious matters.

The compilation of the Qur'an into a book was first enacted during the caliphate of Abu bakr. The reason was because pagan arab tribes were killing alot of those who memorized the complete Qur'an. In one incident, 100 of such persons were killed.

The Muslims compiled this Quran based on this reason and the spreading of Islam outside the Arab penisula.
While Muhammad was alive, Qur'an recitation styles were 7 principally.

In each of the styles, you have minor styles, based on pronounciations, etc.
The master manuscript, if you can call it that, was left in the care of Hafsat (RA), the daughter of the second caliphar, Umar ibn Khattab, al shariff.

It was in the third caliphar's reign, that the Qur'an, using the Only complete copy of the Qur'an in the trusteeship of Hafsat (RA), as the masterpiece. Caliphar Uthman ibn Affan (RA)produced 4 copies based on the seat of knowledge of islam; The Makkan and Madinan copy is one, The Kufa text, the Baghdad text and the syrian texts. these were the four texts. In west africa, what is known as wahsh style of recitation is very common. However every letter of the each style is also found in its proper place in the other styles of Qur'an. So you see, oral tradition is still very prominent and so is the writing down of it as tools of learning.

Uthman burnt the various degrees of incomplete copies of Qur'an because they become irrelivant, since there are now various complete copies available.
You must never forget that these incomplete copies were available during the lifetime of Muhammad (AS). Further, the complete Qur'an were compiled using these incomplete Qur'an copies and the recitaions by people, each supporting one another in confirmation of the authentic Qur'anic verses recited.

Inshort, God Almighty gives a rich legacy to the Muslims by all of these many ways to preserve the purity of the Qur'an.

In my case, I did not go to madrasa in Nigeria. My father (ra) did not put me in it. I regret it.
However, America opened my eyes and my heart to Islam. I now read the Arabic Qur'an and I understand it when it is recited. It is a moving book. May God allow you to experience the Sweet nectar of it. there is no comparison. I read the Bible. It is romantic.

As to the command of Zachariah to the children of Israel, when the news of John was given to him, he can only instruct with his hand. That instruction of praising Allah is practiced by Muslims after the Morning prayer and the late afternoon or evening prayer. This prayer is Alhamdulillah, Surulillah. All of these prophets are aour prophets (AS).

@olabowale,

In divine matters about who the Creator is, you don't use a plural pronoun to describe Him or His work; because the moment you do that, the ones claiming to have 'created' with a plural pronoun are impugning on the glory of the Creator Himself. If *Allah* in the Qur'an is satisfied to use "We created man", how does that set him apart from those who associate themselves with him in that plural pronoun?

At the time Muhammad was praising the Bible, both the Old and New Testaments were canonised and had Psalm 2:12, Mark 1:1 and John 1:1 in them in exactly as we read them today. The idea that the Bible has been corrupted is Muhammad's disavowal of what he couldn't accept, and his denials are still unsustained to this very day.

I am not so sure that most of your Muslim brothers would be happy with you saying this:

olabowale:

Uthman burnt the various degrees of incomplete copies of Qur'an because they become irrelivant, since there are now various complete copies available.

Muslims never see any part of the Qur'an as irrelevant - not at any one time in Islamic history, although I stand to be corrected. Even if that were the case, why would a Caliph - a leader in Islamic community - order *Allah's* book to be burnt?? The idea that there were various complete copies should not be an excuse to burn a document regarded as sacred to Muslims. The real history behind this is that Caliph Uthman was alarmed that there were "corrupt" copies of the Qur'an in circulation, where upon he engaged in a project that saw his own political redaction as the only one to displace all others - thus ordering the burning of those extant copies.

olabowale:

Inshort, God Almighty gives a rich legacy to the Muslims by all of these many ways to preserve the purity of the Qur'an.

If the Psalms of David, the Law of Moses, and the Gospel of Jesus wer actually sent down and given by *Allah*, why did he not apply the same rule to 'his' sacred scriptures that he sent down and preserve their purity as well? Is there a suspicious element why he could not preserve the other "books" he claimed to have sent down, revealed and confirmed?

olabowale:

As to the command of Zachariah to the children of Israel, when the news of John was given to him, he can only instruct with his hand. That instruction of praising Allah is practiced by Muslims after the Morning prayer and the late afternoon or evening prayer. This prayer is Alhamdulillah, Surulillah. All of these prophets are aour prophets (AS).

Zachariah who was John the Baptist's father was not the same as the prophet Zechariah. The first was a priest in the New Testament, while the other was an Old Testament prophet whose name is the title of one of those OT books. 

The pagan Arabs worshipped the Moon-god Allah by praying toward Mecca several times a day; making a pilgrimage to Mecca; running around the temple of the Moon-god called the Kabah; kissing the black stone; killing an animal in sacrifice to the Moon-god; throwing stones at the devil; fasting for the month which begins and ends with the crescent moon; giving alms to the poor, etc.

The Muslim's claim that Allah is the God of the Bible and that Islam arose from the religion of the prophets and apostles is refuted by solid, overwhelming archeological evidence. Islam is nothing more than a revival of the ancient Moon-god cult. It has taken the symbols, the rites, the ceremonies, and even the name of its god from the ancient pagan religion of the Moon-god. As such, it is sheer idolatry and must be rejected by all those who follow the Torah and Gospel. moongod.htm

read the details.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

[b]Some claim that Allah is the same god as the God of Jews and Christians. He is not! Dr. Ergun Caner is a born and raised Muslim who converted to Christianity as an adult and is now the Dean of the Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary in Virginia. When asked about how the God Christians worship is different from the god Muslims worship, this was his reply: "Islam is a medieval Mormonism. Mormons don't worship the same God and neither do the Muslims. What Muhammad did was the same thing that Brigham Young did 1100 years later."

Caner explains, "They took the Christian God and changed his nature. Remember, the Christian God is intimate, personal, imminent and loving. There is no such Muslim having a personal, intimate relationship with Allah. In Islam, there are 99 names of Allah and not one of those terms is intimate." Dr. Ergun Caner adds that there is a distinction between a "just war" and a "holy war." He states that in a holy war "you are fighting to kill the infidel instead of convert the infidel." "This is prophecy for them."

Christians must remember the words of Jesus in John 7:7, "The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil." Because Christians accept Jesus, and His Holy Spirit dwells within them, they are hated by all that is sinful and evil. “No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other” (Matthew 6:24). So if one has hate in his heart against goodness and love, he can only love terror and evil.

Jesus is the only way to the Father God (John 14:6), but all are invited and welcomed to come to Him through the cross. Jesus invites all nations and people from all "-isms" to come to the cross, just as they are. He rejects no one and died for every one on earth so that all might be saved. (John 3:16-21) [/b]

@babyosisi

You are solid I have known this over 15 years now. Now we know that the parents of Muhamed were Idolatrous people.


@ olabowale
Read this site and answer the question What was the religious background of MR. Muhamed
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

Africans, talking rubbish as usual,my logic is this,

1.5000 years ago,Abraham became the patriarch of the Jewish nation and he served a God called Jehovah/Yahweh.

2.2000 years ago,followers of Jesus started a new religion based on claim that their leader Jesus is the Son of the God Jehovah.

3.The Jews being the original worshipers of Jehovah,say that he has no SON and the maintain that believe to this day

4.Are the Jews or Christains worshipping the same God?Is it the same Jehovah or Jehovah 2.0

5.1500 years ago Muhammad starts a new religion with a God called Allah,he says Allah sent,Ibrahim(Abraham),Daudo(David),Moses(Musa),Jesus(Issa,Isa) to the world before Himself as the final prophet.he says Allah(Jehovah) has no son.

6.Jews and Muslims agree that God aka Jehovah,Yahweh,Allah has no son.which means GOD 1.0,Christains have an improved Jehovah who has a son.GOD 2.0

7.Fast forward 2006,Africans give this new Christan God many local names e.g Chukwu,Chineke,Tamuno,Obasi,Ogene etc,is this the same God ?

Dear Mr Mayor,
Your 'logic' only requires simplistic answer: ALL the different types of names in your post refer to the same God with the exception of Allah. As I stated earlier in one of my posts, what is important is WHO we are referring to when we call upon God in our native language; we Yorubas call upon Jehovah as 'Olorun, eledumare, Oba n'la to ni gbogbo aye' and call Jesus Christ 'Jesu Kristi'. While currently some (not all) Jews don't accept Jesus as the 'Messiah', in the infinite wisdom of Jehovah, this has opened the door of salvation for us the gentiles. (Please, Read the entire Chapter 11 of Romans written by an  "Israelite, a seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin" for better understanding) The Jews are still coming to accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, it is written and we believe it!!!.
I will ask you to read this link http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm and also read the article in the new topic posted by Backslider titled "Was Allah The Moon God Of Ancient Arab Pagan? Holy Month Is Ushered In By Moon!" to understand who is Allah; after reading those portions, then read the book of Ezekiel Chapter 8 vs 14-17 (only three verses)
Look! Mr Mayor, you must be ready to read a lot if you want to contribute on this forum rather that using simple logic; as you can see the forum is full of great men and women of faith and wisdom!!!