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logica
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Wrong. It is not about ego as I wouldn't even have this conversation in the first place if it was. And it is not about MY code, but more about MY design (architecture).
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candylips (m)
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I recently worked on a piece creating custom modules for a web based application and the company has their piece buiilt using classic asp and vbscript. We are talking in the year 2009 , and there are no plans to switch over to asp.net anytime soon.
Legacy systems are very difficult to change. "if its not broken don't fix it"Wrong. It is not about ego as I wouldn't even have this conversation in the first place if it was. And it is not about MY code, but more about MY design (architecture).
Logica it is very difficult arguing with a .Net developer about things like this. Their development philosophy is very different from the rest of the industry . . Java, PHP and others. While the rest of the industry blaze the trail in Software Engineering , patterns and techniques. .Net developers are more concerned about just getting the job done using most of the tools avaliable to them in the framwork, even when some of the stuff done in the wider software community has been ported to .Net. An average .Net developer doesn't care about this because Microsoft provide everthing they require for them |
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Kobojunkie
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Legacy systems are very difficult to change. "if its not broken don't fix it"
Logica it is very difficult arguing with a .Net developer about things like this. Their development philosophy is very different from the rest of the industry . . Java, PHP and others.
While the rest of the industry blaze the trail in Software Engineering , patterns and techniques. .Net developers are more concerned about just getting the job done using most of the tools avaliable to them in the framwork, even when some of the stuff done in the wider software community has been ported to .Net. An average .Net developer doesn't care about this because Microsoft provide everthing they require for them
OMG!!! You really believe this is about .NET and your assumption that .NET comes with a MENTALITY!!!! WOW!! That you believe that gooble-de-goop up there makes me realize this is a waste of my time. Sort of like the many arguments on .NET vs Java that most spend their time on. Feel free to continue thinking as you do. |
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candylips (m)
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Kobo it is about you or .Net vs Java.
It's just that i come against a brick wall anytime i discuss architectural solutions with .Net developers because they always look at issues from the .Net perspective.
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Kobojunkie
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Did it ever occur to you that YOUR CHOICE is probably NOT everyone's? Do you really go around thinking that when people, in other areas or who use other programming languages, do not agree with you, it means THEY are the clueless ones? I am sorry but just because I predominantly use .NET DOES NOT mean I do not know what software architecting is about. Don't worry much about my background as I know that the assertion you made of this DESIGN PATTERN is nonsense at best. Design Patterns are more best practices but you could also overdo it with them and that is well known fact. Also, you cannot apply all patterns in all cases, so MVC works where it works but it does not work in ALL cases.
Also does it not occur to you that when you make statements such as the one you did earlier about your dear MVC pattern that it ought to be true APPLY IN ALL CASES(.NET AND NON), or it is probably NOT a VALID assertion?
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candylips (m)
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Also does it not occur to you that when you make statements such as the one you did earlier about your dear MVC pattern that it ought to be true APPLY IN ALL CASES(.NET AND NON), or it is probably NOT a VALID assertion?
How about you demonstrating to us as logica suggested (you don't need to write code just describe how you can do this) how you can achieve a clear seperation of concerns in a simple 3 tier web application without using the MVC pattern. In my work as a contractor, I have yet to work on a single team where MVC has been used to date, and I am talking of fortune 500 companies.
But you tend to see the shittest code in all these fortune 500 companies. Unmaintanable, hacked, ugly looking code so don't even go about citing them as examples. I work in .NET world, and even the new ASP.NET MVC framework is still not an industry wide standard considering most shops and software houses are still comfortable working with what they have since it works and is clean and good for them. Are we to assume these companies do not have talented developers on staff then? Are these applications to be considered non-functional simply because no consideration was made for MVC pattern? Again, like every other design pattern out there, it has it's place. It is not FOR ALL development, framework and non.
Ofcouse what do you expect. However the more talented .Net developers will be using the newer more efficient MVC approach and some will even have ported some of the other best practices in the wider developement community for their use which the remaining knuckle heads will wait for big DADDY microsoft to provide in the next version of the framework or stick to the old in-efficient way of doing things |
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logica
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@candylips The phrase you are looking for is "quick-and-dirty".  |
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Kobojunkie
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How about you demonstrating to us as logica suggested (you don't need to write code just describe how you can do this) how you can achieve a clear seperation of concerns in a simple 3 tier web application without using the MVC pattern. Sighs! . . . . Why 3 tier? Are ALL applications necessarily 3-tiered or more? But you tend to see the shittest code in all these fortune 500 companies. Unmaintanable, hacked, ugly looking code so don't even go about citing them as examples. But this is NOT ALWAYS the case in ALL fortune 500 companies, let alone small shops. So many of them actually work hard to ensure that their code is well written, maintained and updated frequently. Ofcouse what do you expect. However the more talented .Net developers will be using the newer more efficient MVC approach and some will even have ported some of the other best practices in the wider developement community for their use which the remaining knuckle heads will wait for big DADDY microsoft to provide in the next version of the framework or stick to the old in-efficient way of doing things
OH For crying out loud!!! I need to stop responding to many of these posts on here. It is my mistake trying to at least get you to see that the world of IT does not revolve around you and your take on design patterns. I apologise for that. Do continue as you will. |
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candylips (m)
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Sighs! . . . . Why 3 tier? Are ALL applications necessarily 3-tiered or more?
Ok before i answer that can you describe how you will architect a simple web application in such a way that business logic, database access and view dispatcher logic is seperated (not neccessarily 3 tiered . . for your convenience ) |
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Ghenghis (m)
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Guys I've been following your posts and you guys are just short of throwing punches  I've used both .NET and Java extensively(though i now use mostly Java cause of work). Design patterns are language agnostic, and we all need them. They are simply good, industry tried techniques for solving common problems. Yes, some languages tend to shield many developers from thinking patterns, and yes there are more opportunities for java architects than .NET cause MS usually bundle their own brand of best practice into ,say, infrastructure libraries. This is a fact, but i've seen great application of patterns in .NET apps (both from MS and 3rd parties). Distributed applications can generally be categorized as 2tier or 3tier (same as N-tier). In two tier you have smarter clients driving the server. In 3 tier you have a middleware driving the server. MVC or similar patterns that allow separation of concerns for apps is necessary to build complex but maintainable apps (yeah MVC is boring cause its everywhere, but its important)  |
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Bossman (m)
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Well said. It's very true that patterns that support the separation of concerns are esential to developing complex applications. Just about every where I have worked have used MVC or a variant of it. Guys I've been following your posts and you guys are just short of throwing punches I've used both .NET and Java extensively(though i now use mostly Java cause of work). Design patterns are language agnostic, and we all need them. They are simply good, industry tried techniques for solving common problems. Yes, some languages tend to shield many developers from thinking patterns, and yes there are more opportunities for java architects than .NET cause MS usually bundle their own brand of best practice into ,say, infrastructure libraries. This is a fact, but i've seen great application of patterns in .NET apps (both from MS and 3rd parties). Distributed applications can generally be categorized as 2tier or 3tier (same as N-tier). In two tier you have smarter clients driving the server. In 3 tier you have a middleware driving the server. MVC or similar patterns that allow separation of concerns for apps is necessary to build complex but maintainable apps (yeah MVC is boring cause its everywhere, but its important) |
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