To Tithe or Not to Tithe?

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Nairaland Forum  |  General Discussion  |  Religion (Moderator: mukina2)  |  To Tithe or Not to Tithe?
Poll
Question: Do Contemporary Christians Have To Pay Tithes?
Yes - 67 (60.4%)
No - 44 (39.6%)
Total Votes: 111

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Author Topic: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?  (Read 18634 views)
pilgrim.1 (f)
Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?
« #992 on: July 25, 2007, 05:33 PM »

Quote from: TV01 on July 25, 2007, 12:14 PM
I understand perfectly, and it's exactly what I expected from you Cool!

Nope, you didn't. Go through again - and when I read answers, then I'll offer something.

Cheers.  Cool
TV01 (m)
Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?
« #993 on: July 26, 2007, 10:08 AM »

Quote from: pilgrim.1 on July 25, 2007, 05:33 PM
Nope, you didn't. Go through again - and when I read answers, then I'll offer something.

Answers to what exactly? Since I thought I'D answered the three questions posed, please be clear if there were 1. More questions and 2. Any I left unanswered.

Or alternatively, you could just offer whatever it is you believe to be of import.

God bless
TV
pilgrim.1 (f)
Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?
« #994 on: July 26, 2007, 10:18 AM »

Here, let me help you:

I very much appreciate the texts you quoted. However, like I said, you really have not answered my question.

"1. Is there any scriptural command obliging any kind of giving at all in the NT?"

Yes, or No - and whichever was the case, this is why it is so from this and that text of Scripture.

If I have to go through each text you offered, we'D have to come round seeing that not all apply to money issues (Matt. 10:8 on healing, it's not about giving money).

Quote from: TV01 on July 17, 2007, 10:30 AM
Anyone looking for a an amount attached to the outline for giving is probably missing the understanding of grace and maturity. Flip side of that coin would be to be somewhat legally minded in approach to NT Christian living.

I wasn't asking about what amount anyone wants to give, or of flip sides to what you're assuming. The one question was and is: where is the scriptural command obliging any kind of giving at all in the NT?

Quote from: TV01 on July 17, 2007, 10:40 AM
Firstly, please note, that I am not delineating giving, or ascribing income streams to generosity, or quantifying earthly returns for sacrificial behaviour, nor being mystical about  a "tithe" or anything else. Just talking about "giving" in response to a need (mainly) or to bless.

Perhaps we shall have cause to come to all that. My enquiry was simple enough - "2. Are there any blessings at all enunciated in the Bible for "giving" (tithes or whatever other type)?"

Perhaps I was expecting something like this:

      Yes
      No,
      you don't know (or whatever else),
     - and thus and so are the reasons why from Scripture.

Of course, it doesn't have to be in that format exactly for me to read yours as an answer. I understand that we all have different ways and appraoches to enquiries. However, I'm actually looking for simple straightforward answers from yours.

Quote from: TV01 on July 17, 2007, 10:40 AM
I'm sure there are more examples, but that is just the gist of my thoughts. Giving engenders blessings both here and in the hereafter. But there is nothing to suggest that there is a direct formula or law commanding specific returns in this age.

Okay, if I should take that as an answer, then it only speaks to the point that you agree there are indeed blessings for "giving". Whether or not anyone is looking for a formula does not have any bearing at all in what I'm asking; and that is the roundabout argument that I stated I'm not in the least interested in.


With regards to the Melchizedek case, I think you're looking away from what the text says and points to. Please read it again. . . carefully, and it might become clear how you missed the point.

Cheers.

TV01 (m)
Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?
« #995 on: July 26, 2007, 11:41 AM »

Quote
Here, let me help you:

You are too kind.

Quote
I very much appreciate the texts you quoted. However, like I said, you really have not answered my question.

I'm not entirely sure you actually want an answer. Your approach seems to be one of "tease and promise". The tease being altogether "school-girly", while the promise is never fulfilled. You start with a poser, but we never seem to get to what you are getting at. If as you often allude too, you have something of import to say, please do.

Quote
"1. Is there any scriptural command obliging any kind of giving at all in the NT?"

I would have hoped that the scriptures I posted, along with my previous posting show my thoughts are that it is part and parcel of the Christian life, especially as one matures in faith.

So, give. Give, money, food, drink, shelter, time, resources, help, counsel, advice, sacrificially, cheerfully, liberally, abundantly. Give honour, give praise, give worship, give glory.

Quote
Yes, or No - and whichever was the case, this is why it is so from this and that text of Scripture.

It you have a view either way, what restrains you from doing as you yourself suggest? Even the courtesy of stating why you ask would be helpful, so as to clarify and contextualise.

Quote
If I have to go through each text you offered, we'D have to come round seeing that not all apply to money issues (Matt. 10:8 on healing, it's not about giving money).

Not all? But some se? Not to mention that giving, as I've said is not only monetary.

You wrote;
Quote
My enquiry was simple enough - "2. Are there any blessings at all enunciated in the Bible for "giving" (tithes or whatever other type)?"

I replied;
Quote
Giving engenders blessings both here and in the hereafter.
Which part of that is indecipherable?

Quote
Okay, if I should take that as an answer, then it only speaks to the point that you agree there are indeed blessings for "giving". Whether or not anyone is looking for a formula does not have any bearing at all in what I'm asking; and that is the roundabout argument that I stated I'm not in the least interested in.

Stating that there are blessings for giving, does not buttress the case for tithing.

Quote
With regards to the Melchizedek case, I think you're looking away from what the text says and points to. Please read it again. . . carefully, and it might become clear how you missed the point.

Obliged for the direction. And having read and re-read, I have no further insight that leads me to re-state in anyway what I wrote.

So, in lieu of it becoming clear to me how I missed the point, perhaps you'D be so kind as too enlighten me.

I continually humour you in the hope that maybe you have something of relevance to say. Throwing out posers, disdaining the responses and not actually providing your own reading or insight does not suggest that you are actually interested in honest dialogue.

God bless
TV
pilgrim.1 (f)
Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?
« #996 on: July 26, 2007, 12:27 PM »

@TV01,

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 11:41 AM
I'm not entirely sure you actually want an answer. Your approach seems to be one of "tease and promise". The tease being altogether "school-girly", while the promise is never fulfilled. You start with a poser, but we never seem to get to what you are getting at. If as you often allude too, you have something of import to say, please do.

I asked simple questions; if you had proffered as simple enough answers thereto, you'D not be losing sleep sweating to play the teaser yourself.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 11:41 AM
I would have hoped that the scriptures I posted, along with my previous posting show my thoughts are that it is part and parcel of the Christian life, especially as one matures in faith.

So, give. Give, money, food, drink, shelter, time, resources, help, counsel, advice, sacrificially, cheerfully, liberally, abundantly. Give honour, give praise, give worship, give glory.

Don't skirt around the simple question. One could as well "give" their wives, yes? This is precisely the same thing I cautioned about roundabout arguments. My question was about money matters, not the swinging about giving. You and Hnd-holder have been hooting about "the topic is about tithing"; and now you've momentarily frgotten that to speak of give this or that.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 11:41 AM
It you have a view either way, what restrains you from doing as you yourself suggest? Even the courtesy of stating why you ask would be helpful, so as to clarify and contextualise.

Is it too much to ask that you be simple enough instead of first skirting around and eventually away from the questions being asked?

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 11:41 AM
Not all? But some se? Not to mention that giving, as I've said is not only monetary.

Please be honest with yourself. Does that verse speak of money matters?

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 11:41 AM
Which part of that is indecipherable?

Did you miss what I commented on following that; or you're just deliberately trying to be funny?

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 11:41 AM
Stating that there are blessings for giving, does not buttress the case for tithing.

Neither does your premise buttress he case for giving as well.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 11:41 AM
Obliged for the direction. And having read and re-read, I have no further insight that leads me to re-state in anyway what I wrote.

So predictable.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 11:41 AM
So, in lieu of it becoming clear to me how I missed the point, perhaps you'D be so kind as too enlighten me.

Heb.7:8 - "And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. "

Please note that verse indicates a present instance (check the Greek 'μαρτυρέω' to see for yourself). What that points to is simply this: the priesthood of Melchizedek is a living priesthood, not one that has become obselete. In contrast to those who received tithes here ("here men that die receive tithes"), Scripture is clear that the priesthood of Melchizedek is a present event ("but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth").

To further emphasize the point on tithing, we understand that the singular response of Abraham in Gen. 14:20 actually affected his progeny - as is clear in Heb. 7:9 & 10 -- "And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him."

Those who militate against tithes as a NT practice for Christians should calmly consider this portion of Scripture; or they should do one simple thing: proffer the verse in the Bible that states that Christians are NOT to tithe.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 11:41 AM
I continually humour you in the hope that maybe you have something of relevance to say. Throwing out posers, disdaining the responses and not actually providing your own reading or insight does not suggest that you are actually interested in honest dialogue.

I do have interest in honest dialogue. It is your roundabout silly drivels that don't interest me in the least. If you're going to discuss, be a gentleman when and if you do so. If, however, you'D play your characteristic overblown image, I'm no stranger to putting you in your place. Dare me.

Cheers.
clemcykul
Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?
« #997 on: July 26, 2007, 01:02 PM »

Who said christ or the apostles never talked about thithing the bible says giv and it shall be given unto u, good measures shaken together and runing over shall the lord pour unto your bosom. christ even gave parables on giving. the lord God almighty loves a cheerful giver. even in genesis when God told cain and Abel to bring the first friuts of their labour what does that imply? it implies that right from the begining God instituted the tithe, ure are showing your appreciation to God for prospering you. remember God loves a grateful heart You giv unto God and he will in his power and might enlarge your coast. remember that money given to God does not go into private pockets its used for the propagation of the Gospel of our lord and saviour jesus christ to all the ends of the earth. Which is the primary duty of every christian. may God help us to run our christain race to the end in Jesus ever living name AMEN. Smiley
TV01 (m)
Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?
« #998 on: July 26, 2007, 01:26 PM »

Quote
Don't skirt around the simple question. One could as well "give" their wives, yes? This is precisely the same thing I cautioned about roundabout arguments. My question was about money matters, not the swinging about giving. You and Hnd-holder have been hooting about "the topic is about tithing"; and now you've momentarily frgotten that to speak of give this or that.

Good of you to remember, since you are working tirelessly to make tithing = giving Grin!

Quote
[Please be honest with yourself. Does that verse speak of money matters?

I quoted various verses. Pick one that does not talk specifically about money and build a siegemound. Oh Miss, you can do better. Giving is varied, and even restricting it to money matters is answered by some verses I offered.

Giving encopmpasses money. To say that it is about giving leaves you blind-sided as you insist tithing = giving. So maybe we should tithe time, or any other resouce huh?

Quote
Neither does your premise buttress he case for giving as well.

Doublespeak!

Quote
Heb.7:8 - "And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. "

Please note that verse indicates a present instance (check the Greek 'μαρτυρέω' to see for yourself). What that points to is simply this: the priesthood of Melchizedek is a living priesthood, not one that has become obselete. In contrast to those who received tithes here ("here men that die receive tithes"), Scripture is clear that the priesthood of Melchizedek is a present event ("but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth").

To further emphasize the point on tithing, we understand that the singular response of Abraham in Gen. 14:20 actually affected his progeny - as is clear in Heb. 7:9 & 10 -- "And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him."

Too much learning leads to brainfag - to paraphrase  Grin!

Here => under the law (levitical priesthood). Both redundant Miss.
There => under a superior priesthood to the levitical type. Is Melchizedek High Priest now?

No it didn't affect his progeny, just showed their priesthood to be inferior to Melchizedeks.

Quote
Those who militate against tithes as a NT practice for Christians should calmly consider this portion of Scripture; or they should do one simple thing: proffer the verse in the Bible that states that Christians are NOT to tithe.

Calm down Miss. We have duly considered it. It does'nt mean a tithe is demanded of NT Christians. Neither have you shown that it does. Plus you further muddle your own position. As this would suggest it is mandatory, whilst you are trying to sell it as voluntary and the same as giving.

Same old sorry arse strategy. "Mixed grain theology". Mixing OT & NT, Law & Grace, shadows and fullness. With a nice little topping of implied blessings/curses. Lame. Did I say you can do better? I still believe you can

NT exhorts Christians to give. Nowhere does the NT command tithing. Unless of course you can show otherwise.

And no one is millitating against it. Just saying it's not mandatory and if voluntary, then no different to giving and thus a non-starter.

You sound really het up. Is everything alright?

God bless
TV
TV01 (m)
Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?
« #999 on: July 26, 2007, 01:42 PM »

Quote from: clemcykul on July 26, 2007, 01:02 PM
Who said christ or the apostles never talked about thithing

No one. Christ mentioned tithing, but it was never mentioned or commanded to Christians. Non of the Apostles ever mentioned or commanded it. So thats a no on 3 of 4 points.

Quote from: clemcykul on July 26, 2007, 01:02 PM
the bible says giv and it shall be given unto u, good measures shaken together and runing over shall the lord pour unto your bosom. christ even gave parables on giving. the lord God almighty loves a cheerful giver.

Oh my. A nice little sermon on giving

Quote from: clemcykul on July 26, 2007, 01:02 PM
even in genesis when God told cain and Abel to bring the first friuts of their labour what does that imply? it implies that right from the begining God instituted the tithe,

Spoilt by confusing it with tithing and a mis-understanding of firstfruits. Oh dear.

Quote from: clemcykul on July 26, 2007, 01:02 PM
ure are showing your appreciation to God for prospering you.

That is, giving Him a cut? Sounds like a protection racket.

Quote from: clemcykul on July 26, 2007, 01:02 PM
remember God loves a grateful heart You giv unto God and he will in his power and might enlarge your coast.

Or maybe an investment scheme.

Quote from: clemcykul on July 26, 2007, 01:02 PM
remember that money given to God does not go into private pockets

I'D love to discuss the practical everday import of a tithe. But some people seem determined to stop us getting there. What would Melchizedek have used Abrahams tithe for? What is the tithe used for in this day and age? What is the scriptural blueprint for it's application?

Quote from: clemcykul on July 26, 2007, 01:02 PM
its used for the propagation of the Gospel

One of the biggest lies out there. Propagation of the gospel is not predicated on enforced or voluntary collection of money.

No where in the NT is money collected (mandatorily or voluntarily) to spread the gospel, pay salaries, build temples or any of the myriad other things money is applied to nowadays. But like I said, some don't want us to have that discussion, as it would equally disprove the erroneous notion that tithing is a Christian imperative.

Quote from: clemcykul on July 26, 2007, 01:02 PM
Which is the primary duty of every christian.

That is at best debatable, but even if it was, there is nothing to suggest that tithing is the way to do it.

Quote from: clemcykul on July 26, 2007, 01:02 PM
may God help us to run our christain race to the end in Jesus ever living name AMEN. Smiley

Amen.
pilgrim.1 (f)
Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?
« #1000 on: July 26, 2007, 01:59 PM »

@TV01,

I knew you'D so quickly pick on clemcykul and slice at his post. Anyhow, here's something for you to think through:

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 01:26 PM
Good of you to remember, since you are working tirelessly to make tithing = giving

Nope, you shouldn't be misreading issues into my reposte was the point. Wink

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 01:26 PM
I quoted various verses. Pick one that does not talk specifically about money and build a siegemound.

TV01, it doesn't cost anything to be honest. That verse does not speak about money matters, and you know it. Trying to offer it as a pretence for money matters is hideous when infact it does not. If someone quotes another verse for a principle, you'D characteristically be first to raise your hand and cry hooha.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 01:26 PM
Oh Miss, you can do better. Giving is varied, and even restricting it to money matters is answered by some verses I offered.

Since giving is varied, WHY then has it been such a nightmare to you especially when the same GIVING is mentioned in connection with "tithing" (another type of giving)? What games are you playing here?

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 01:26 PM
Giving encopmpasses money. To say that it is about giving leaves you blind-sided as you insist tithing = giving. So maybe we should tithe time, or any other resouce huh?

You're such a silly laugh, honestly. You make a case so much for giving and tithing and then come back complaining against the same strains you're offering. Please go back and pick out where indeed I said (or "insist") that "tithing = giving". If you no longer understand English, what do you make out of this clause in my rejoinder: "any kind of giving at all in the NT"?!?

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 01:26 PM
Doublespeak!

The champion you are at that.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 01:26 PM
Too much learning leads to brainfag - to paraphrase!

Interesting way to capture your ribald underachievment, another paraphrase perhaps? Cheesy

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 01:26 PM
Here => under the law (levitical priesthood). Both redundant Miss.
There => under a superior priesthood to the levitical type. Is Melchizedek High Priest now?

Olodo! Grin Go get you study tools and dust them to help you see your noise is not worth it. You agree it was "under a superior priesthood to the levitical type." Question: has the Melchizedek priesthood been set aside for a third type of "superior" priesthood?

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 01:26 PM
No it didn't affect his progeny, just showed their priesthood to be inferior to Melchizedeks.

Classic denial yet again. What then is the meaning of Heb. 7:9 & 10? Abraham's tithing to Melchizedek in no way affected Levi, NO?

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 01:26 PM
Calm down Miss. We have duly considered it. It does'nt mean a tithe is demanded of NT Christians. Neither have you shown that it does. Plus you further muddle your own position. As this would suggest it is mandatory, whilst you are trying to sell it as voluntary and the same as giving.

You make yourself sound so very cheap when you try to accuse and force issues into people's posts. I nowhere intended tithes as mandatory; and my point is simply that it is not taught in Scripture that tithing is disparaged or negated the way those who oppose it have been doing! That is why I offered that you guys bring forward such a verse where tithing has been forbidden, as well as offered the first question initially: "1. Is there any scriptural command obliging any kind of giving at all in the NT?"

When people have cheated behind the counter to force their premises denouncing tithing in order to militate against it, I have offered just one simple question where such a position is not at all found in the Word: show me the verse that says tithing is NOT to be a Christian observation.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 01:26 PM
Same old sorry arse strategy. "Mixed grain theology". Mixing OT & NT, Law & Grace, shadows and fullness. With a nice little topping of implied blessings/curses. Lame. Did I say you can do better? I still believe you can

I remember who used that language to show how beggarly he is in his pretended "walk" and under-achievements when discussing Biblical issues. Indeed, I'm now so used to your crap that it would have been surprising if you didn't post that bunkum to show how beggarly your reading skills have become.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 01:26 PM
NT exhorts Christians to give. Nowhere does the NT command tithing. Unless of course you can show otherwise.

Don't sob so loud - I didn't use the word "command" to discuss tithing. I only asked you to show where Scripture denounces tithing the way you have been cheating readers once and again. That too hard for your level of understanding?

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 01:26 PM
And no one is millitating against it. Just saying it's not mandatory and if voluntary, then no different to giving and thus a non-starter.

Oh, "no different to giving", you say? Don't make me laugh, loser! Grin Are you not the same chap who's been making crap noise about equating tithing to giving? "No different to giving" - listen to yourself! Cheesy

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 01:26 PM
You sound really het up. Is everything alright?

You must have been to the health center already. I'm cool. . . just don't have the time for your games. Cool

Cheers.
TV01 (m)
Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?
« #1001 on: July 26, 2007, 02:57 PM »

Ah, ah Pilgrim. Such harsh lanuguage. As ever, I give place to you as to the weaker vessel  Grin!

Quote
TV01, it doesn't cost anything to be honest. That verse does not speak about money matters, and you know it. Trying to offer it as a pretence for money matters is hideous when infact it does not. If someone quotes another verse for a principle, you'D characteristically be first to raise your hand and cry hooha.

It talks about giving. But I'll humour you (again). Lets discard that particular verse. Any comment on the dozen others?

Quote
Since giving is varied, WHY then has it been such a nightmare to you especially when the same GIVING is mentioned in connection with "tithing" (another type of giving)? What games are you playing here

As in what you can give.

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You're such a silly laugh, honestly. You make a case so much for giving and tithing and then come back complaining against the same strains you're offering. Please go back and pick out where indeed I said (or "insist") that "tithing = giving". If you no longer understand English, what do you make out of this clause in my rejoinder: "any kind of giving at all in the NT"?!?

Me, make a case for tithing. Have someone take a look at the blow to the head you have obviously sustained  Huh

Giving is outlined, exhorted and praised in the NT. Tithing is not.

On what basis are you championing tithing for NT Christians? Please demonstrate that your 3rd way is not mythic, and substantiate with clear explication from scripture, instead of tart posers such as "what does this mean" or what does that say" or your perennial favourite "where in the NT does it say blah, blah, blah".

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The champion you are at that.

Thanks for the compliment, but girl truly you are in a class of your own. Unparalleled  Grin!

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Olodo!  Go get you study tools and dust them to help you see your noise is not worth it. You agree it was "under a superior priesthood to the levitical type." Question: has the Melchizedek priesthood been set aside for a third type of "superior" priesthood?

 Cheesy Olodo rabata sef!
Yes, the Melchizedek type was superior to the Levitical, but it was just a shadow". So yes the Melchizedek has been set aside for the fullness in Christ. Must 'fess up, I'm a bit of a "needs must" studier, but you could use some extra-mural classes. At your service girl  Cool!

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Classic denial yet again. What then is the meaning of Heb. 7:9 & 10? Abraham's tithing to Melchizedek in no way affected Levi, NO?

NO, it did not! Please say how? Did the people tithe in respopnse to Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek or in accordance with the  law?

I have repeatedly said, the whole import of the Abraham/Melchizedek encounter was to to show the superiority of the Melchizedek type to tthe levitical. Full stop. In return, read verses 11 & 12 of the same chapter you sightlessly quoted.

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You make yourself sound so very cheap when you try to accuse and force issues into people's posts. I nowhere intended tithes as mandatory; and my point is simply that it is not taught in Scripture that tithing is disparaged or negated the way those who oppose it have been doing! That is why I offered that you guys bring forward such a verse where tithing has been forbidden, as well as offered the first question initially: "1. Is there any scriptural command obliging any kind of giving at all in the NT?"

I'm not just cheap, I'm also easy  Cool! But you are making no headway dear! Try harder Cool!

I have not disparaged, merely shown via end-to-end exigesis, that the notion of a mandatory tithe is wrong and that voluntary tithing cannot be differentiated from giving, and is thus a mute point. If you insist there is a difference, please show it, without resort to mixed-grain theology. Thank you.

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When people have cheated behind the counter to force their premises denouncing tithing in order to militate against it, I have offered just one simple quest where such a position is not at all found in the Nion: show me the verse that says tithing is NOT to be a Christian observation.

Likewise, please show from scripture that tithing is a Christian observation. My dear, you can be so regressive. This topic has passed a thousand posts and all you can come up with is "show me one verse?" Naughty!

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remember who used that language to show how beggarly he is in his pretended "walk" and under-achievements when discussing Biblical issues. Indeed, I'm now so used to your crap that it would have been surprising if you didn't post that bunkum to show how beggarly your reading skills have become.

I get it, you quite like me  Kiss! Must be said, I'm quite fanciable, but I no longer do proms  Cool!

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Don't sob so loud - I didn't use the word "command" to discuss tithing. I only asked you to show where Scripture denounces tithing the way you have been cheating readers once and again. That too hard for your level of understanding?

Again, please state for the record, the basis that you consider tithing to be a Christian notion.

Quote
Oh, "no different to giving", you say? Don't make me laugh, loser!  Are you not the same chap who's been making crap noise about equating tithing to giving? "No different to giving" - listen to yourself!

You have gotten so personal over this. Clear evidence of you failure to prosecute your position on sound scriptural reasoning. And liberally peppering with smilies doesn't hide the poor humour  and frustration in your posts  Shocked! And by the way, I'D rather listen to myself than your relentless drone! Girl, you could could nag for Africa Grin!

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You must have been to the health center already. I'm cool. . . just don't have the time for your games.

I won't bore you with my latest sporting injury (lest I end up confused about what ails me Grin). But discussing with you would drive lesser mortals insane. I have the patience of a Saint me  Cool

Later

God bless olodo's (of whom I am chief Grin!)
TV
pilgrim.1 (f)
Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?
« #1002 on: July 26, 2007, 04:44 PM »

@TV01,

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 02:57 PM
Ah, ah Pilgrim. Such harsh lanuguage. As ever, I give place to you as to the weaker vessel

Crying already? As before, I asked for a discussion, not your usual sly invectives.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 02:57 PM
It talks about giving. But I'll humour you (again). Lets discard that particular verse. Any comment on the dozen others?

Scurrying away from the verse, are you? Why is it so difficult for you to admit honestly that the verse (Matt. 10:8) is not about money matters? Just because it mentions "giving" does not mean you have to assume it to establish a case it does not for your persuasion. There are other verses that mention the word "give" - and one doesn't have to suppose they're about money matters: (Matt. 10:42 - "give to drink"; Matt. 14:16 - "give ye them to eat"; Matt. 24:19 - "to them that give suck in those days!").

My comment on the dozen others still do not answer my question: "1. Is there any scriptural command obliging any kind of giving at all in the NT?" By quoting those texts, are you assuming they point to the Scriptural "command" and "obligation" to give any kind of giving at all in the NT? That is why I offered earlier that I refrained from commenting because you really didn't answer my questions. Instead, you scooted away from that question and began to talk about an "amount" and the "flip side" of issues I didn't ask you.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 02:57 PM
As in what you can give.

Ol' boy, take style play this game gently. Try not dribbling round it.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 02:57 PM
Me, make a case for tithing. Have someone take a look at the blow to the head you have obviously sustained

Are you so badly wounded you are seeing double now?

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 02:57 PM
Giving is outlined, exhorted and praised in the NT. Tithing is not.

And therefore where is tithing denounced?

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 02:57 PM
On what basis are you championing tithing for NT Christians? Please demonstrate that your 3rd way is not mythic, and substantiate with clear explication from scripture, instead of tart posers such as "what does this mean" or what does that say" or your perennial favourite "where in the NT does it say blah, blah, blah".

I've offered just an example; and if you haven't seen that already, no need trying to traipse your hogwash about and litter the thread. The one thing I've asked is still being asked: where do you find tithes denounced in the NT? If Scripture does not denounce, why have you been cheating readers into thinking so and yet have not been able to provide a simple verse for that argument instead of your pretended "blah-blah"?

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 02:57 PM
Thanks for the compliment, but girl truly you are in a class of your own. Unparalleled

I've severally cautioned that you "discuss" issues and avoid the invectives. Did you cinsider them as "compliments" when using them in yours against others?

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 02:57 PM
Olodo rabata sef!
Yes, the Melchizedek type was superior to the Levitical, but it was just a shadow". So yes the Melchizedek has been set aside for the fullness in Christ. Must 'fess up, I'm a bit of a "needs must" studier, but you could use some extra-mural classes. At your service girl

Ahh there! Lol, TV01, you seriously need to humble yourself when you read Scripture. Could I ask you to proffer the verse for what you conclude as "yes the Melchizedek has been set aside for the fullness in Christ"? You have a fine way of making a mess of your pretended scholarship, and I'D just like to see how your clean up this one.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 02:57 PM
NO, it did not! Please say how? Did the people tithe in respopnse to Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek or in accordance with the  law?

Oga, settle down and follow Scripture instead of letting your thoughts run ahead of declared statements in God's Word. The text does not suggest that Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek in accordance with the Law; nor does it even suggest that
"the people" tithe to Melchizedek in "accordance with the law". This is the one thing that always comes to the fore whenever you guys read the word "tithe" - you often assume it must be by LAW! And yet, the text in Heb. 7:9 & 10 did not mention
tithing in connection with the Law! Can you read at all, or you are hoping thia backhand game would score you the cheap point you're pretending to introduce where it does not exist?

That text is clear: "And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham" - and it does not warrant the "according to the law" that you're sweating to argue into it!


pilgrim.1 (f)
Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?
« #1003 on: July 26, 2007, 04:45 PM »


@TV01,

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 02:57 PM
I have repeatedly said, the whole import of the Abraham/Melchizedek encounter was to to show the superiority of the Melchizedek type to tthe levitical. Full stop. In return, read verses 11 & 12 of the same chapter you sightlessly quoted.

I've re-read verses 11 & 12 as advised, and brother it is establishing the same thing I offered you rather than negating it. Verse 11 says: "another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron" - and that
alone should make you understand that the Melchizedek priesthood has NOT been set aside as you pompously asserted earlier. The question concerning verses 8 - 10 is one about tithing - and that not based on the Law; but rather such as
preceded the Law! Great to know that the priesthood of Melchizedek is superior to the Levitical (or Aaronic) priesthood; but have you carefully asked why the apostle mentions the issue of tithing in that connection?

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 02:57 PM
I'm not just cheap, I'm also easy! But you are making no headway dear! Try harder !

Do I need to try anything to convince you about what you've just confirmed about your being cheap? You've merely tried to add another on top of that and there again confirmed the former, Lol.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 02:57 PM
I have not disparaged, merely shown via end-to-end exigesis, that the notion of a mandatory tithe is wrong and that voluntary tithing cannot be differentiated from giving, and is thus a mute point. If you insist there is a difference, please show it, without resort to mixed-grain theology. Thank you.

If you'D only grow up. I did not suggest that tithing has to be mandatory - and if anything at all, you've been the one person that often punctuates your cheap underscholarship with akin words (forced, coerced, etc) as if that is what
the Bible teaches. Go through again and show where I mentioned the idea of a "mandatory tithe"; and if it is not what I've argued, why try to attempt reading that into my reposte and further confirm how ribald your thinking is? Try not suggesting things into my rejoinders - especially
where I've argued quite the opposite; otherwise you end up displaying your more leaf than fruit.

Now to even argue that "voluntary tithing cannot be differentiated from giving" is to remove the ground under your standing. You've simply argued in a roundabout way that "tithing cannot be differentiated from giving", albeit you might have to qualify it with "voluntary" to allay your fears.

Did you and Hnd-holder not cry hooha about what the topic of the thread is? You guys are simply a laugh. Is tithing = giving? Your summation above simply says "yes" - as long as you want to qualify it as "voluntary" tithing! That being the case, would you simply do what you're arguing - go give our tithes: whether you call it "voluntary tithing",
"simply tithing", or "no mandatory tithing" - do what you're saying and cease the empty theology that you've not been able to sustain from the Word of God.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 02:57 PM
Likewise, please show from scripture that tithing is a Christian observation. My dear, you can be so regressive. This topic has passed a thousand posts and all you can come up with is "show me one verse?" Naughty!

If you've cheated others with over 1,000 posts on issues you couldn't show from the Word, it's not surprising that you're acting fried up because I asked you for just one verse where the Bible teaches your dishonest backhandedness. You couldn't proffer one - and all you could do is appeal to how long this thread has grown! Haha. . TV01, e don tay wey you dey play this hogwash games!

The priesthood of the NT with Christ as our high priest is clearly after the order of Melchizedek. Scripture teaches that Melchizedek's priesthood is an UNCHANGING priesthood (Heb. 7:15, 21 & 24 -- "it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, . . . But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood"). That priesthood is predicated on one thing: "the power of an endless life" (vs. 16). Earlier in verse 8, rather than argue against tithes as "types and shadows" which have been done away with, it tells us that the Melchizedek priesthood "receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth". Infact, in order to negate that, those who argue against tithes would do well to show from Scripture that God denounces it in the NT. Where is such a verse for such denouncements?

Why would the Bible want us to read about "tithes" in that passage in Hebrews 7 in such language that does not at all suggest it has been abrogated or denounced the way tithe opposers have been doing? Not in one instance do we read about the same denunciation against tithes that opposers have been forcefully reading into the NT. Now, my question TV01 is: can you please show me that verse that denounces tithing the way you have been forcefully reading into the NT? Remember it does not predicate that tithing was based or predicated upon any law as you've tried to interject into Heb. 7:8. I just want you to remember that and not come back with your tired old excuses of a "mandatory" tithe that I never mentioned in my repostes.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 02:57 PM
I get it, you quite like me  ! Must be said, I'm quite fanciable, but I no longer do proms

I'm trying to like you; but I didn't realize I'D have to ask for a miracle to do so! Is this how lowly you present yourself to the unlucky girls who don't know how to separate the boys from the men (and in many cases have mistaken you for the latter)?

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 02:57 PM
Again, please state for the record, the basis that you consider tithing to be a Christian notion.

I'm still discussing the one example of Hebrews 7:8 with you. What's the point giving you a few more to choke on when you've hardly digested that one and instead making surprising denials thereto? Em, did you say again that "the Melchizedek has been set aside"? Would it be too much to ask that you go back to God's Word and settle your thoughts there?

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 02:57 PM
You have gotten so personal over this. Clear evidence of you failure to prosecute your position on sound scriptural reasoning. And liberally peppering with smilies doesn't hide the poor humour  and frustration in your posts  ! And by the way, I'D rather listen to myself than your relentless drone! Girl, you could could nag for Africa

Talk about your drab political snivels, I could have mistaken you for the sobber Tories after the pubs closed! My smiles were not to humour you - they were rather in response to your comic underscholarship and classic denials against clear declaratives in Scripture. What you do is deny what is stated, proffer nothing, make cheap excuses, make more denials where you can't offer verses for your arguments, and cap it with a pharisaic "God bless" like it would hide your whited sepulcher. Gosh! You make the sons of the Pharisees drool!

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 02:57 PM
I won't bore you with my latest sporting injury (lest I end up confused about what ails me ).

Oh dear! Did it take you this long to realize something was ailing you? I trust one of those mis-road girls called the ambulance in time for you, eh?

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 02:57 PM
But discussing with you would drive lesser mortals insane. I have the patience of a Saint me

Hehe. .  we haven't even started and you're already losing your sanity! Grin I've thoroughly enjoyed kidding you. . .  just that what's left of you could be saved for Poseidon!

Cheerio!
TV01 (m)
Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?
« #1004 on: July 26, 2007, 05:17 PM »

@ Pilgrim.1,

Let me re-state clearly. Melchizedek =/= Christ. Melchizedeks priesthood is a Shadow of Christs. Just as the Aaronic one also pre-figured Christs.

The reference to the tithe and the sons of Levi was to show that the Melchizedek priesthood was superior to the Levitical. Finito. Not a hint to NT Christians to Tithe.

Hebrews clearly states that;
1. The Levites recieved tithes under the law
2. Said law is now done away with.
3. Their payment of tithes through Abraham denoted Melchizedeks priesthood as superior.
4. But even the Melchizedek type has been replaced bas "another has arisen" (of similar type).

And so I repeat. NT Christians are nowhere mandated to tithe.

If a NTC wishes to do so voluntarily, then fine, but such an act accrues no blessings (similarly, not doing so accrues no curses) unavailable to one who simply gives.

In that case voluntary tithing is no different to giving (which is also voluntary), and it becomes a mute point.

If you request a NT verse that denounces tithing, I'll say this;
1. Show me one that proclaims it as NT practice.
2. A thorough exigeses of the topic in context shows that it is at best a non-starter.

Quit the lip and admit the weakness of your position. I promise to be a gentleman and not gloat for too long  Cool. I'll even applaud your hard efforts although usually lame and ultimately futile.

God bless
TV

Pilgrim.1, when are you going to admit to being an alter-ego? What's a mis-road girl??
otuwe (f)
Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?
« #1005 on: July 26, 2007, 05:22 PM »

*straining my eyes reading pilgrim's epistle*
pilgrim.1 (f)
Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?
« #1006 on: July 28, 2007, 11:30 PM »

Quote from: otuwe on July 26, 2007, 05:22 PM
*straining my eyes reading pilgrim's epistle*

Hope we no go share the glasses? Grin
pilgrim.1 (f)
Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?
« #1007 on: July 28, 2007, 11:35 PM »

@TV01,

It's really sad that you'D so predicatably return with your assertive denials and yet make no point at all. I'll just take this in quick strides.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 05:17 PM
Let me re-state clearly. Melchizedek =/= Christ. Melchizedeks priesthood is a Shadow of Christs. Just as the Aaronic one also pre-figured Christs.

This is where you're making a huge mistake. I haven't argued to make Melchizedek = Christ, have I? However, just to point out how colossal your failure here is:

(a) The Aaronic priesthood does NOT prefigure the priesthood of Christ. Certainly, there are a lot of elements in the Aaronic priesthood which may help us understand some aspects of Christ's heavenly ministry as high Priest. However, there's no gainsaying the fact that both priesthoods are contrasted rather than compared in Scripture - so you're making a huge mistake to see the former as a "pre-figure" of the latter. One critical distinction between them is that the priests in the Levitical priesthood always stood while ministering and offering sacrifices (Heb. 10:11); whereas Christ as High Priest isn't standing - He sat down after having offered Himself once for all (vs. 12), which is a huge contrast to what the Levitical priesthood offered.

Another pivotal contrast is given in Heb. 7:27 -- "Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself." The Levitical priesthood does not "prefigure" Christ's; rather, they stand in stack contrast!

(b) Melchizedek's priesthood is NOT a "shadow" of Christ's. The Bible is clear that Christ's priesthood is "after the order of Melchizedek" (Heb. 5:5-10). As is evident in Heb. 7:11, Christ was not called after the order of Aaron; but instead "after the order of Melchizedek". Rather than compare or contrast between Melchizedek's and Christ's priesthood, God's Word teaches that Melchizedek's priesthood was the very order to which that of Christ was called.

Earlier in Heb. 7:3, we are told in clear terms  that Melchizedek's priesthood was not regarded as obselete - "Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually." Nowhere in Scripture is there the remotest idea that "the order of Melchizedek" had become superannuated, and thus to be supervened upon by "another order" of priesthood. At least, it is clear in Scripture that was the case with the order of Aaron; but not with the order of Melchizedek - otherwise, Christ would not even then be called a Priest "after the order of Melchizedek" in the first place!

(c) The fallacy of your reasoning here is that you're trying to use two very different types and orders of priesthoods (Aaronic/Levitical and Melchizedek's) to "prefigure" the priesthood of Christ! What you have done effectively demonstrates how deeply flawed your study skills are in regards to God's Word.

It should not be a difficult thing to see if you've a good grasp of Biblical eschatology; in which case as you obviously don't, then you'D continue to make the same colossal mistakes and running headlong into assertive denials which have become your trademark.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 05:17 PM
The reference to the tithe and the sons of Levi was to show that the Melchizedek priesthood was superior to the Levitical. Finito. Not a hint to NT Christians to Tithe.

This is why you're such a laugh! It is actually ridiculous for you to assume that the apostle tried to use tithes to demonstrate that Melchizedek's priesthood was superior to the Levitical one. There are other references than tithes that God's Word employs to contrast between either priesthoods and to establish the case of superiority of the one over the other. A few of such references to Melchizedek's superior pristhood "after the order of" which Christ was called include:

   (a) the perfection of Christ - Heb. 5:9 & 10
   (b) the immutability of God's counsel and His oath - Heb. 6:16-20 (see the oath in Psa. 110:4 and compare with Heb. 7:20-21)
   (c) the weakness and unprofitability of the Law which made nothing perfect - Heb. 7:18 & 19

However, the one reason why God wants us to note the mention of tithes in Hebrews 7 is because Melchizedek's priesthood is an abiding priesthood (vs. 3 - "abideth a priest continually"); and in that connection the Bible is clear that tithes are still received in the Melchizedek's priesthood after the order of which Christ is called:

   "And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth" (vs. 8)

The huge difference between the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods is one of continuity. In the case of the Aaronic priesthood, "they were not suffered to continue by reason of death" (vs. 23); while that of Melchizedek is predicated on "the power of an endless life" (vs. 16). If the Melchizedek priesthood was a dead and obsolete one as was said of the Aaronic, then Christ would not have been called "after the order of Melchizedek" in the first place! And the reason God's Word mentions tithes in Hebrews 7 is unmistakable in verse 8 - the Melchizedek priesthood (after the order of which Christ was called) "receiveth them", and the reason is given: "of whom it is witnessed that he liveth". You cannot mistake that unless you deliberately want to look away from Scripture and pretend that there's nothing in the NT that enunciates tithes for the Christian.

pilgrim.1 (f)
Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?
« #1008 on: July 28, 2007, 11:36 PM »

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 05:17 PM
Hebrews clearly states that;
1. The Levites recieved tithes under the law
2. Said law is now done away with.
3. Their payment of tithes through Abraham denoted Melchizedeks priesthood as superior.

In addition to what I've offered as to WHY tithes are mentioned in Heb. 7, let me remind you again: the Levites did not pay tithes through Abraham to Melchizedek under any LAW! Your ideas are a classic example of the lazy thinking of people who always want to see tithes as connected with a law! The Levites' payment of tithe through Abraham not only demonstrates Melchizedek's priesthood as superior, but more to the point is what is mentioned in connection with tithes in verse 8 - and I've discussed that just above.

The inspired apostle does not use tithes as the basis for arguing that Melchizedek's priesthood was superior to the Levitical one - and I've given a few reasons why that idea is crass. Rather, the apostle uses two undeniable facts to establish that superiority:

   (a) Melchizedek: priesthood was predicated on the power of an endless life (vs. 16), and that he abides a priest continually (vs. 3);
   (b) Levitical: "the weakness and unprofitableness" of the Law (vs. 18); and their inability to continue "by reason od death" (vs. 23).

That the Levites paid tithes through Abraham to Melchizedek is not the reason that establishes the superiority of the priesthood of the latter over the former; because even under the Law, the Levites themselves also paid tithes (Num. 18:25-30)! You can't miss the reason for why the apostle mentions tithes in Hebrews 7, as given in verse 8 for the attention of the Christian: "And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth."

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 05:17 PM
4. But even the Melchizedek type has been replaced bas "another has arisen" (of similar type).

That's not taught anywhere in the Bible. God never said that the Melchizedek priesthood has been "replaced" by another; otherwise it would mean that Christ was called "after the order of" someone else's priesthood which has "replaced" that of Melchizedek! You make assertive denials like the above because you have refused to open your eyes and read what Scripture clearly declares.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 05:17 PM
And so I repeat. NT Christians are nowhere mandated to tithe.

You're simply cheating yourself with the use of "mandated" every time you read the word "tithes"! The NT does not present tithes or any type of givig as a "mandated" exercise. You've been cheating your adulators with that word because you cannot acknowledge the simple Biblical understanding that tithes are not a matter of "mandate", "force" or "coersion". When Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek, where do we read that he did so as a matter of having been "mandated"?

And the idea of a "mandated" giving that you've been so beggarly straining at can be corrected to free your imprisoned mind if you look closely into the Word. I've asked the question earlier: "1. Is there any scriptural command obliging any kind of giving at all in the NT?" Rather than answer the question, you skirted around it and so typical scooted away to something other than what I asked. If you so believe that Christians are not "mandated" to give anything, then strike out the following verse from your own Bible:

Rom. 15:27 - "It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things."

God's Word clearly teaches that it is the Christian's duty (read "mandate" if you please) to give financially - especially in the realization that we have been beneficiaries to the spiritual things ministered unto us. That's why the apostle does not state an opinion or his personal suggestion in Gal. 6:6 when he confirmed this point yet again: "Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things." Come back and tell me that is not a command or an obligation that Christians are called to betake themselves unto.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 05:17 PM
If a NTC wishes to do so voluntarily, then fine, but such an act accrues no blessings (similarly, not doing so accrues no curses) unavailable to one who simply gives.

TV01, those who give are blessed over those who do not. The idea of "simply give"  with which you've imprisoned your mind on this subject is nowhere taught in Scripture! Giving in simplicity as an attitude (Rom. 12:8) is not to be confused with the act of worship that invites our giving as a sacrifice which pleases God (Heb. 13:16). The idea that "giving" and "not giving" are to be regarded on the same plane (neither this nor that) is actually a display of blind and cold-hearted rebellion of a queer kind to the Word of God.

When a believer honours the Lord with the his sacrificial giving as an ACT of worship, Scripture clearly teaches that such believers are blessed over those who do not have the revelation of doing so. Here are a few clear texts to the point (ask yourself if those who do not obey the principles in those texts receive the same blessing or response from God as those who obey them):

2 Chron. 31:10 - "And Azariah the chief priest of the house of Zadok answered him, and said, Since the people began to bring the offerings into the house of the LORD, we have had enough to eat, and have left plenty: for the LORD hath blessed his people; and that which is left is this great store."

Proverbs 3: 9 & 10 - "Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine."

Mal. 3:10 - "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."

2 Cor. 9:6 - "But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully."

2 Cor. 9:10 - "Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness"

There are several more, my dear TV01. The problem is that you've imprisoned your mind and have been pretending that sorry condition as "freedom". If you don't want to give your tithes because you can't see it for anything other than a "mandated" exercise, then keep that argument to yourself and don't pretend it as what is taught in the Word. When you start giving (tithes and offerings as a worship-sacrifice), you will definitely receive God's response in blessings in just precisely as the Word declares in the several verses offered just above (see again 2 Cor. 9:10).
pilgrim.1 (f)
Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?
« #1009 on: July 28, 2007, 11:38 PM »

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 05:17 PM
In that case voluntary tithing is no different to giving (which is also voluntary), and it becomes a mute point.

Your making "voluntary tithing" a mute point because you want to equate it to "voluntary giving" is a lazy way of reasoning. The question here is about TITHES, and it doesn't really score a point at all whether or not you want to play smart by qualifying it as "mandated" and/or "voluntary". You and Hnd-holder have severally been noising that whenever your comfort zones are squeezed. I don't see tithes as a matter of either mandated or voluntary. The bottomline is that people tithe, and God is not asking us to look for such qualifiers as you suppose before deciding on whether or not we should equate it the way you're often trying so to do.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 05:17 PM
If you request a NT verse that denounces tithing, I'll say this;
1. Show me one that proclaims it as NT practice.

I've done precisely that - scroll up and see the point on Hebrews 7 that you so assertively deny because you have nothing to offer in answer to my questions.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 05:17 PM
2. A thorough exigeses of the topic in context shows that it is at best a non-starter.

Trying to pretend your colossal failure as a substitute for Biblical exigeses does not make it a non-starter. What you've done here is the direct opposite of exigeses, which is eisegesis - and yours is a perculiar one at that, especially your denials of the unchangeable priesthood of Melchizedek!

Now could you be so kind as to proffer a text where God denounces tithes in the NT the way you and your adulators have been trying to cheat your readers with?

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 05:17 PM
Quit the lip and admit the weakness of your position.

This is typically the cry of lazy thinkers - always trying to pronounce others as "weak" when infact all you offer do not even rise to the dignity of a zero, with your minus points and assertive denials against Biblical declarations.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 05:17 PM
I promise to be a gentleman and not gloat for too long.

It's not surprising you're still bleating after all the pompous display of a pretended scholarship which at best says nothing other than deny what you don't understand nor are willing to acknowledge is taught in Scripture.

Quote from: TV01 on July 26, 2007, 05:17 PM
I'll even applaud your hard efforts although usually lame and ultimately futile.

No worries. It's just a sad case you make for your botched arguments (if you'D been hoping for an upgrade); although I should respect your subaltern trademark.

Rest your heart.
jayon (m)
Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?
« #1010 on: July 29, 2007, 01:39 AM »

Modern Tithing is Based on Many False Assumptions



One denomination’s statement on stewardship is typical of what many others teach about tithing. It says that "tithing is the minimum biblical standard and the beginning point which God has established that must not be replaced or compromised by any other standard." It adds that the tithe is from gross income which is due to the church before taxes.

The following points of this essay contrast the false teachings used to support tithing with what God’s Word actually says.



Point #1: N. T. Giving Principles in Second Corinthians 8 and 9 are Superior to Tithing.



The false teaching is that tithing is a divine mandatory expectation which always must precede free-will giving.



Free-will giving existed before tithing. The following New Covenant free-will principles are found in Second Corinthians, chapters 8 and 9: (1) Giving is a "grace.” These chapters use the Greek word for "grace" eight times in reference to helping poor saints. (2) Give yourself to God first (8:5). (3) Give yourself to knowing God’s will (8:5). (4) Give in response to Christ’s gift (8:9; 9:15). (5) Give out of a sincere desire (8:8, 10, 12; 9:7). (6) Do not give because of any commandment (8:8, 10; 9:7). (7) Give beyond your ability (8:3, 11, 12). (Cool Give to produce equality. This means that those who have more should give more in order to make up for the inability of those who cannot afford to give as much (8:12-14). (9) Give joyfully (8:2). (10) Give because you are growing spiritually (8:3, 4, 7). (11) Give because you want to continue growing spiritually (9:8, 10, 11). (12) Give because you are hearing the gospel preached (9:13).



Point #2: In God’s Word the Tithe is Always Only Food!



The false teaching is that biblical tithes include ALL sources of income.



Use God’s Word to define “tithe.” Do not use a secular dictionary! Open a complete Bible concordance and you will discover that the definition used by tithe-advocates is wrong. In God’s Word “tithe” does not stand alone. Although money existed before tithing, the original source of God's "tithe" was never money. It was the “tithe of food.” This is very important: True biblical tithes were always only food from the farms and herds of only Israelites who only lived inside God’s Holy Land, the national boundary of Israel. The increase was gathered from what God produced and not from man's craft or ability.

There are 15 verses from 11 chapters and 8 books from Leviticus 27 to Luke 11 which describe the contents of the tithe. And the contents never (again), never included money, silver, gold or anything other than food from inside Israel! Yet the incorrect definition of "tithe" is the greatest error being preached about tithing today! (See Lev. 27:30, 32; Numb. 18:27, 28; Deut. 12:17; 14:22, 23; 26:12; 2 Chron. 31:5, 6; Neh. 10:37; 13:5; Mal. 3:10; Matt. 23:23; Luke 11: 42).



Point #3: Money Was an Essential Non-Tithed Item



            The false assumption is that food barter usually replaced money.



One argument to support non-food tithing is that money was not universally available and barter from food must have been used for most transactions.  This argument is not biblical. Genesis alone contains “money” in 32 texts and the word occurs 44 times before the tithe is first mentioned in Leviticus 27. The word shekel also appears often from Genesis to Deuteronomy.

In fact many centuries before Israel entered Canaan and began tithing food from God’s Holy Land money was an essential everyday item. For example money in the form of silver shekels paid for slaves (Gen 17:12+); land (Gen 23:9+); freedom (Ex 23:11); court fines (Ex 21 all; 22 all); sanctuary dues (Ex 30:12+); vows (Lev 27:3-7); poll taxes (Num 3:47+), alcoholic drinks (Deu 14:26) and marriage dowries (Deu 22:29).

According to Genesis 47:15-17 food was used for barter only after money had been spent. Banking and usury laws exist in God’s Word in Leviticus even before tithing. Therefore the argument that money was not prevalent enough for everyday use is false. Yet the tithe contents never include money from non-food products and trades.



Point #4: Abraham’s Tithe to Melchizedek Reflected Pagan Tradition.



The false teaching is that Abraham freely gave tithes because it was God’s will.



For the following reasons, Genesis 14:20 cannot be used as an example for Christians to tithe. (1) The Bible does not say that Abraham "freely" gave this tithe. (2) Abraham’s gift was NOT a holy tithe from God’s holy land gathered by God’s holy people under God’s holy Old Covenant. (3) Abraham’s tithe was only from pagan spoils of war and was required in many nations. (4) In Numbers 31, God only required 1% of spoils of war. (5) Abraham’s tithe to Melchizedek was a one-time recorded event. (6) Abraham’s tithe was not from his own personal property. (7) Abraham kept nothing for himself; he gave everything back. (Cool Abraham’s tithe is not quoted anywhere in the Bible to endorse tithing. (9) Genesis 14, verse 21, is the key text. Since most commentaries explain verse 21 as an example of pagan Arab tradition, it is contradictory to explain the 90% of verse 21 as pagan, while insisting that the 10% of verse 20 was God’s will. (10) If Abraham is an example for Christians to give 10% to God, then he should also be an example for Christians to give the other 90% to Satan, or to the king of Sodom! (11) As priests themselves, neither Abraham nor Jacob had a Levitical priesthood to support; they probably left food for the poor at their altars.



Point #5: First-Tithes were Received by Servants to the Priests.



            The false teaching is that Old Testament priests received all of the first tithe.



The "whole" tithe, the first tithe, did not go to the priests at all. According to Numbers 18:21-24 and Nehemiah 10:37b, it went to the servants of the priests, the Levites. And according to Numbers 18:25-28 and Nehemiah 10:38, the Levites gave the best “tenth of this tithe” (1%) which they received to the priests who ministered the sin sacrifices and served inside the holy places. Priests did not tithe.

It is also important to know that, in exchange for receiving these tithes, both Levites and priests forfeited all rights to permanent land inheritance inside Israel (Numb. 18:20-26; Deut. 12:12; 14:27, 29; 18:1, 2; Josh. 13:14, 33; 14:3; 18:7; Ezek. 44:28). Even if tithes were New Covenant they would first go to the (Levites) deacons to assist the preachers and maintain the buildings.



Point #6: "It is Holy to the LORD" Does Not Make Tithing an Eternal Moral Principle.



The false teaching is that Leviticus 27:30-33 proves that the tithe is an "eternal moral principle" because "it is holy to the LORD."



The phrases “it is HOLY unto the LORD” and “it is MOST HOLY unto the LORD” are very common in Leviticus. However, almost every other use of these same two phrases in Leviticus has long ago been discarded by Christians. These phrases are used to describe all of the festivals, the sacrificial offerings, the clean food, the old covenant priests and the old covenant sanctuary. Especially read verses 28 and 29 in the same chapter.

While the “tithe of the tithe” (1%) which was given to the priests was the “best” of what the Levites received, the tithe which the Levites received was only “one tenth” and not the “best” (Lev. 27:32, 33).



Point #7: First-fruits are Not the Same as Tithes



            The false assumption is that tithes are first-fruits.



            The first-fruit was a very small amount of the first crop harvest and the first-born was the  first offspring of animals. The first-fruit was small enough to fit into a hand-held basket (Deut. 26:1-4, 10; Lev. 23:17; Num. 18:13-17; 2 Chron 31:5a).

            First-fruit and first-born offerings went directly to the Temple and were required to be totally consumed by ministering priests only inside the Temple (Neh. 10:35-37a; Ex. 23:19; 34:26; Deut. 18:4).

            The whole Levitical tithe went first to the Levitical cities and portions went to the Temple to feed both Levites and priests who were ministering there in rotation (Neh. 10:37b-39; 12:27-29, 44-47; Num. 18:21-28; 2 Chron 31:5b). While the Levites ate the tithe, the priests could also eat from the first-fruit, first-born offerings and other offerings.



Point #8: There are Four Different Tithes Described in the Bible.



The false teaching ignores all other tithes and focuses on an incorrect interpretation of the first religious tithe.



The first religious tithe, called the "Levitical tithe," had two parts. Again, the whole first tithe was given to the Levites who were only servants to the priests (Numb. 18:21-24; Neh. 10:37). The Levites, in turn, gave one tenth of the whole tithe to the priests (Numb. 18:25-28; Neh. 10:38). According to Deuteronomy 12 and 14, the second religious tithe, called the "feast tithe," was eaten by worshipers in the streets of Jerusalem during the three yearly festivals (Deut. 12:1-19; 14:22-26). And, according to Deuteronomy 14 and 26, a third tithe, called the "poor tithe," was kept in the homes every third year to feed the poor (Deut. 14:28, 29; 26:12, 13). Also, according to First Samuel 8:14-17, the ruler collected the first and best ten per cent for political use. During Jesus’ time Rome collected the first ten per cent (10%) of most food and twenty per cent (20%) of fruit crops as its spoils of war. One wonders what "churches" are trying to hide when they single out the one religious tithe which best suits their purposes and ignore the other two important religious tithes.



Point #9: Jesus, Peter, Paul and the Poor Did Not Tithe!



The false teaching is that everybody in the Old Testament was required to begin their giving to God at the ten per cent level.



The poor were not required to tithe at all! Neither did the tithe come from the results of man’s craft, hands and skill. Only farmers and herdsmen gathered what God produced as tithe increase. Jesus was a carpenter; Paul was a tentmaker and Peter was a fisherman. None of these occupations qualified as tithe-payers because they did not farm or herd animals for a living. It is, therefore, incorrect to teach that everybody paid a required minimum of a tithe and, therefore, that New Covenant Christians should be required to at least begin at the same minimum as Old Covenant Israelites. This common false assumption is very often repeated and completely ignores the very plain definition of tithe as food gathered from farm increase or herd increase.

It is also wrong to teach that the poor in Israel were required to pay tithes. In fact, they actually received tithes! Much of the second festival tithe and all of a special third-year tithe went to the poor! Many laws protected the poor from abuse and expensive sacrifices which they could not afford (see also Lev. 14:21; 25:6, 25-28, 35, 36; 27:8; Deu. 12:1-19; 14:23, 28, 29; 15:7, 8, 11; 24:12, 14, 15, 19, 20; 26:11-13; Mal. 3:5; Matt. 12:1, 2; Mark 2:23, 24; Luke 2:22-24; 6:1, 2; 2 Cor. 8:12-14; 1 Tim. 5:8; Jas. 1:27).



Point #10: Tithes were Often Used as Political Taxes.



The false teaching is that tithes are never comparable to taxes or taxation.



In the Hebrew economy, the tithe was used in a totally different manner than it is preached today. Once again, those Levites who received the whole tithe were not even ministers or priests -- they were only servants to the priests! Numbers chapter 3 describes the Levites as carpenters, metal workers, leather-craftsmen and artists who maintained the small sanctuary. And, according to First Chronicles, chapters 23-26, during the time of King David and King Solomon the Levites were still skilled craftsmen who inspected and approved all work in the Temple: 24, 000 worked in the Temple as builders and supervisors; 6,000 were officials and judges; 4,000 were guards and 4,000 were musicians. As political representatives of the king, Levites used their tithe income to serve as officials, judges, tax collectors, treasurers, temple guards, musicians, bakers, singers and professional soldiers (1 Chron. 12:23, 26; 23:2-5; 26:29-32; 27:5). It is obvious why these examples of using biblical tithe-income are never used as examples in the church today.

It is also important to know that Old Covenant tithes were never used for evangelism of non-Israelites. Tithing failed! See Hebrews 7:12-19. Tithes never stimulated Old Covenant Levites or priests to establish a single mission outreach or encourage a single Gentile to become an Israelite (Ex. 23:32; 34:12, 15; Deut. 7:2). Old Covenant tithing was motivated and mandated by Law, not love. In fact, during most of Israel’s history the prophets were God’s primary spokesmen – and not the tithe-receiving Levites and priests.



Point #11: Levitical Tithes Were Usually Taken to the Levitical Cities.



False teachers want us to think that all tithes were formerly taken to the Temple and should now be taken to the "church storehouse” building.



The “whole” tithe NEVER went to the Temple!  In reality, the overwhelming majority of Levitical tithes never went to the Temple! Those who teach otherwise ignore the Levitical cities and the 24 courses of the Levites and priests. According to Numbers 35, Joshua 20, 21 and First Chronicles 6, Levites and priests lived on borrowed land like Jericho and Hebron surrounding the Levitical cities where they farmed and raised (tithed) animals. And it is clear from Second Chronicles 31:15-19 and Nehemiah 10:37 that the ordinary people were expected to bring their tithes to the Levitical cities. Why? That is where 98% of the Levites and priests lived with their families most of the time. See also Josh. 20, 21; Numb, 35; 1st Chron.6:48-80; 2nd Chron. 11:13-14; Neh. 12:27-29; 13:10 and Mal. 1:14 for Levitical cities.



Point #12: Malachi 3 is the Most Abused Tithing Text in the Bible.



The false teaching about tithes from Malachi 3 ignores five important Bible facts.



(1) Malachi is Old Covenant context and is never quoted in the New Covenant to validate tithing (Lev. 27:34; Neh. 10:28, 29; Mal. 3:7; 4:4). (2) In 1:6; 2:1 and 3:1-5, Malachi is very clearly addressed to dishonest priests who are cursed because they had stolen the best offerings from God. (3) The Levitical cities must be considered and Jerusalem was not a Levitical city (Josh 20, 21). It makes no sense to teach that 100% of the tithe was brought to the Temple when most Levites and priests did not live in Jerusalem. (4) In Malachi 3:10-11 tithes are still only food (Lev. 27:30-33). (5) The 24 courses of Levites and priests must also be considered. Beginning with King David and King Solomon, they were divided into 24 families. These divisions were also put into place in Malachi’s time by Ezra and Nehemiah. Since normally only one family served in the Temple for only one week at a time, there was absolutely no reason to send ALL of the tithe to the Temple when 98% of those it was designed to feed were still in the Levitical cities (For courses see 1 Chron. chapters 23-26; 28:13, 21; 2 Chron. 8:14; 23:8; 31:2, 15-19; 35:4, 5, 10; Ezra 6:18; Neh. 11:19, 30; 12:24; 13:9, 10; Luke 1:5).