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somegirl (f)
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Mamaput, thanks for the links. I had a glance at the site but I was not positively impressed by it, to be honest. Let me share a few of my thoughts with you. And by the way, what is your opinion about this site? It is important to distinguish between European slavery and African slavery. In most cases, slavery systems in Africa were more like indentured servitude in that the slaves retained some rights and children born to slaves were generally born free. The slaves could be released from servitude and join a family clan. In contrast, European slaves were chattel, or property, who were stripped of their rights. The cycle of slavery was perpetual; children of slaves would, by default, also be slaves. Black people need to be reminded that it was the Black African who created the Slave Trade, and it was the White European who ultimately used his power to outlaw slavery, and set Black people free. First, he distinguishes between African and European slavery (which makes African slavery look less gruel) and then he says that Black Africans were responsible for the creation of the slave trade however surely not for the even worse European slave trade. And a question: Where blacks not involved in abolishing slavery (at all)? Even today, it is Far - Far - better, to be a member of a minority group in a White country, than anywhere else on this planet !! Really? Why does the author not elaborate on that? Maybe, because s/he can't? (Or did s/he and I overlooked it?) At the present time the White race makes up approximately 8% of the "Global" population, and that figure is shrinking rapidly.
We ARE a minority group ! Yes, BUT "you" are not a minority in your own countries and many of your countries are powerful and many/most of the powerful people in your countries are white. There some little points that sound reasonable: - That not only whites can be racists. People of any colour can be racists.
- That not all whites are racists.
- That whites should be worried about becoming a minority in their own countries. We have seen in the past how minorities have been treated. HOWEVER: IMHO, racism, discrimination and segregation are not a solution.
To me this page just wishes to create an even greater gap between whites and non-whites. I won't read the rest, got better things to do with my time. But MAYBE I should google for the following: According to Dr. Ignatiev,
“The key to solving the social problems of our age is to abolish the white race.” Taken out of context?  Only a single voice? |
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somegirl (f)
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Seems to have been taken out of context: "Race is not a biological but a social category. The white race consists of those who partake of the privileges of white skin. The most wretched members share a status higher, in certain respects, than the most exalted persons excluded from it, in return for which they give their support to a system that degrades them."
[---]
"The key to solving the social problems of our age is to abolish the white race," Dr. Ignatiev said, "which means no more and no less than abolishing the privileges of the white skin. Until that task is accomplished, even partial reform will prove elusive, because white[ness] influence permeates every issue, domestic and foreign, in US. society." |
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somegirl (f)
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Also interesting: Throwing such a charge at every white person in the country is obviously racist. How can Ignatiev escape this charge? His solution was ingenious: Redefine whites as a non-race, and implicitly as a conspiracy. It's ingenious because it works with the taboos of the academic world; anywhere else his selective rejection of one race, while endorsing the notion of "black people as a race" in the same article, would be laughed out of the forum. |
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mamaput (f)
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Somegirl you ask too many Questions . First, he distinguishes between African and European slavery (which makes African slavery look less gruel) and then he says that Black Africans were responsible for the creation of the slave trade however surely not for the even worse European slave trade. And a question: Where blacks not involved in abolishing slavery (at all)? He is trying to explain why the black man was selling slaves. he feels that the black man did not know what the slaves "Aborad " were suffering,. Mamaput, thanks for the links. I had a glance at the site but I was not positively impressed by it, to be honest. Let me share a few of my thoughts with you. And by the way, what is your opinion about this site? Its also not everything on this site that impresses me, but am sure that its a start and if we look more we will find more Proof manybe even written by a black(non uncle Tom). A lot of blacks did fight for the freedom of other blacks and not only in the war. There were also people like Nat Turner and cujoe that made life uneasy for some people. It was because of them that many whites did not sleep well at night. |
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Sista (f)
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@MamaputThrowing such a charge at every white person in the country is obviously racist. How can Ignatiev escape this charge? His solution was ingenious: Redefine whites as a non-race, and implicitly as a conspiracy. It's ingenious because it works with the taboos of the academic world; anywhere else his selective rejection of one race, while endorsing the notion of "black people as a race" in the same article, would be laughed out of the forum. To me, this quote is just another poor white person who is tired of all white people getting the blame for slavery. White people like this need to take another method to get rid of their guiltiness. Turning things around is an old white method. This person who said this needs to accept that slavery happend to many black people at the hands of his ancestors and that is a fact. He doesn't need to keep apologizing for what his ancestors did but he should try to bridge the gap by understanding and showing compassion for what black people have gone through instead of trying to sweep in under the rug. @ Somegirl This is for you babe> (Some) white people need to try a new method of showing black people they are not like their ancestors by not trying to sweep under the rug what happend to black people during slavery. They need to understand that it happend to black people, not to them and we can not get over it when people (white people) try to down play what happened. Turning the tables and blaming black people is not going to help, especially when white people were the only ones who profitted. A lot of rich white people today are rich because of slavery. Did you know that banks still existing today were financed off of black slavery? All these famous heirest people you hear of, their families were not born rich, they became rich from slavery and as a result, people who are heriest, they are heirest because of slave money that has been willed over and over to them. It is important to distinguish between European slavery and African slavery. In most cases, slavery systems in Africa were more like indentured servitude in that the slaves retained some rights and children born to slaves were generally born free. The slaves could be released from servitude and join a family clan. In contrast, European slaves were chattel, or property, who were stripped of their rights. The cycle of slavery was perpetual; children of slaves would, by default, also be slaves.
When we go to work for some one else today, it is another form of indentured servitude. If you don't work, you don't eat same system. No one is going to beat you or rape you, you just don't eat. No one is going to rape your virgin daughter. No one is going to hang you, etc., you get the drift? indentured slavery is not slavery. Slavery is Slavery. When you slave to your masters wants and needs of you and you do this as a human, violating all of your human rights. Reducing you to less than human. @Mamaput, I heard this all before, what are you trying prove with this? I don't for one minute believe that my own people sold me into slavery. Never have and never will. If the white man came with guns and cannons, weather Africans traded black humans to them or not, they were coming to get what it was they came for, understand? I am also sure of it that Africans put up a good fight with their spears and animal skin made shields before they gave up and let African family members get into to those slave ships. Why do you think the White man had to create such weaponry in the first place? If someone was constantly kicking my ass, and they had something I wanted and my negative ego wasn't going to give up until I got what I came for, I would definitely come up with a way to get what I wanted. White man knew he could not kick black as straight up, that is why he created the types of weapons he created. Weapons that he did not even have to be standing in front of an African to kill him with. White man was killing Africans while standing several thousands of feet away. Oh yeah, they was gone get what they came for that being (Strong Black men and women and children Africans slaves)
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Sista (f)
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@MamaputHe is trying to explain why the black man was selling slaves.
he feels that the black man did not know what the slaves "Aborad " were suffering,. No, no, no, no - Africans knew, that is why they fought but eventually lost because their weapons could not out do the white mans weapons. White people stole African slaves, Africans were not trading them. That is the biggest lie ever told in effort to make AA people think that their own people sold them off into slavery. Also they told that lie to make AA people be tankful that they were no longer in Africa and therefore should be thankful that they were also slaves. Then they told us that Africans lived in trees like monkeys, ain't that some real clever shyt? Self Hatred in the works.
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NINETOFIVE (m)
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To Mamaput,
I 've come across many of your posts in Nairaland, I can't really understand you, you are a mixed race person with identity crisis, you need to straighten up yourself, you live Germany and Russians are almost your neighbor, go to Russia and see how they maim mixed race people there, and you will never have to doubt whom you are.
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chinani (f)
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I don't who doubts what or when, but this much is true:
Black (Africans) people sold slaves. <--- On whatever level this is true & we should to understand but not try to minimize it.
Slavery in Africa & Slavery in the New Word were so drastically different that they should not be called the same name.
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mamaput (f)
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@ Sista look up King Zembola his son was sold into slavery and wrote his own report.
His Father the King zembola traded in slaves.
@ 9 to 5 your name is a name from a white mans country song . The name you a black man picked for your self.
Yes i am mixed it is my good right to be proud of my German and Nigerian Blood.
If i say am Black that means am ashamed of my Mother .
But am not okey and i do not care how you see it.
I owe you no obligations and i do not owe the Russians any either.
What do they have to do with me or this Topic.
Do not expect me to get a blood transfusion to become pure black because am not.
I know my family history on both sides of the family and i deny none.
Will you deny your Mother answer me.
so why should i because she it white
By the way it is because of people like you that i suffer under identity crisis.
Because people like you demand i pick only one.
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babyosisi (f)
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To Mamaput,
I 've come across many of your posts in Nairaland, I can't really understand you, you are a mixed race person with identity crisis, you need to straighten up yourself, you live Germany and Russians are almost your neighbor, go to Russia and see how they maim mixed race people there, and you will never have to doubt whom you are.
This sounds strange coming from a man in an inter racial marriage. My bro are you planning on having any kids? Is this how you hope to create them an identity by asking them to deny their mother who carried them for 40 weeks and bore them in agony? All the man did was plant a seed. I am a full blooded black woman but any mixed race person like mamaput must not be pressured to deny a part of her. The white man came out with the "little drop of black blood rule",isn't it ironic that many choose to want to discard everything white except that rule. It is unfair for us to see people of mixed race who choose to define themselves as such as having identity crisis and all what not. She is German and Nigerian and she is free to say that. That is her identity. |
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NINETOFIVE (m)
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@ Sista look up King Zembola his son was sold into slavery and wrote his own report.
His Father the King zembola traded in slaves.
@ 9 to 5 your name is a name from a white mans country song . The name you a black man picked for your self.
Yes i am mixed it is my good right to be proud of my German and Nigerian Blood.
If i say am Black that means am ashamed of my Mother .
But am not okey and i do not care how you see it.
I owe you no obligations and i do not owe the Russians any either.
What do they have to do with me or this Topic.
Do not expect me to get a blood transfusion to become pure black because am not.
I know my family history on both sides of the family and i deny none.
Will you deny your Mother answer me.
so why should i because she it white
By the way it is because of people like you that i suffer under identity crisis.
Because people like you demand i pick only one.
Am the right person to tell you this cause my child is mixed race too, time will make you see what am saying, If my mothers people want to maim me I will run 4/40. |
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NINETOFIVE (m)
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To Babyosisi, from: NINETOFIVE on Today at 08:14:19 PM
To Mamaput,
]I 've come across many of your posts in Nairaland, I can't really understand you, you are a mixed race person with identity crisis, you need to straighten up yourself, you live Germany and Russians are almost your neighbor, go to Russia and see how they maim mixed race people there, and you will never have to doubt whom you are. This sounds strange coming from a man in an inter racial marriage. My bro are you planning on having any kids? Is this how you hope to create them an identity by asking them to deny their mother who carried them for 40 weeks and bore them in agony? All the man did was plant a seed. I am a full blooded black woman but any mixed race person like mamaput must not be pressured to deny a part of her. The white man came out with the "little drop of black blood rule",isn't it ironic that many choose to want to discard everything white except that rule. It is unfair for us to see people of mixed race who choose to define themselves as such as having identity crisis and all what not. She is German and Nigerian and she is free to say that. That is her identity. You know I like to be honest, do you know I can send my child to Nigeria and sleep well and know he will be alright, do you know that even my wife can not accept we sending our child to her country without our presence, these world is deeper than you think, I did not want to upset mamaput. |
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somegirl (f)
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Mamaput, I too think that some blacks were involved in the slave trade. However, I don't know to which extend and how much they (only they and not their descendants) can be blamed for it. E.g. they might not have known about the brutal reality of slavery in the new world or they might have fought first and only taken part when feeling overpowered. However, no matter if any blacks took part in the slave trade or not, some white people back than did something very gruel (I'm not lecturing because I know you know that too).
The reason why I asked these many questions is that I don't consider the first site you linked us to as very reliable because of the over-all tone of it. And I got the feeling that the author(s) there at least present the data in a very manipulating way. Or why do you think only one single sentence by Dr. Ignatiev was quoted and also no information on his background given? Doesn't this sentence by Dr. Ignatiev out of context give the impression that blacks hate whites and that they either want them to vanish (by being killed or not being allowed to reproduce)?
I didn't have a time yet to look at the other two links you provided but they are certainly appreciated. Mamaput, große Schwester, I'm always glad to read from you. Please keep posting.
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somegirl (f)
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Sista, when I was about 15, I conducted an interview with my grandparents for my school newspaper. After the war they were driven away from their home at the age of 12 and 15. On their journey, they saw many gruelties done to their fellow country men and women in the name of just punishment --- I would call it bloody revenge. And some people still want to deny the suffering of people like my grandparents. I love them and I can hear their longing when they still speak about "back home". However, my own home is were they settled down, had their children and where their children had us, me, my brother and my cousins. Still, I can understand them when they demand that their suffering back then be not swept under the rug.
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delf747 (m)
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@Mamaput
I am also sure of it that Africans put up a good fight with their spears and animal skin made shields before they gave up and let African family members get into to those slave ships. Sista, You have a romanticised and therefore false view of African people. African people had a very sophisticated and highly developed bushcraft. They could have easily vanished leaving no traces for the Europeans or any potential for the slave trade to start. Even America's most highly trained soldiers today would be completely outwitted by an indigenous tribesman on his own territory. The Europeans would have been completely helpless in Africa without indigenous help. African Kings and Queens were only too happy to oblige and make for themselves what would have been a small fortune. The Europeans new how to make a lot more money out of it of course - the 'traders' bought the slaves for a small amount and then sold them for much more. That's business. It's been going on for thousands of years. |
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delf747 (m)
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@Mamaput.
Mamaput,
It's important not to get the concept of races mixed up with slavery.
There was never such a thing as a black slave or black slave owner.
The motivations for buying and selling humans to use as a source of free labour are entirely economic.
An opportunity opened up for this trade to flourish and it did.
It's brutal, I know, but that's capitalism for you.
The end game is always to make as much money as possible by exploiting peoples labour.
Pay them as little as you can - work them as hard as you can.
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Sista (f)
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@chinaniBlack (Africans) people sold slaves. <--- On whatever level this is true & we should to understand but not try to minimize it. If it is true, I need to see the proof. However, let's play devils advocate, let's say this did happen that Africans sold other Africans into slavery. You mean to tell me that Africans had a choice in the situation? If someone was killing thousands of my people, and the power was in my hands, and I knew that my weapons were useless, I might have to make a peace offering that would conclude that I would have to make a deal with white people. In other words, if they want a hundreds slaves, and that will stop them from killing thousands of Africans, I might have to take him up on that offer. I don't believe that Africans willingly gave up Africans, I just don't believe that. White people have been teaching lies to AA children about Africa and Africans for many, many years, I never swallowed those lies and I don't intend to swallow this one because if I do, it may mean that every thing else white people taught was true. I need proof. @ Mamaput@ Sista look up King Zembola his son was sold into slavery and wrote his own report.
His Father the King zembola traded in slaves. I looked up this king but I could not find any information like who sold him or how much did they get for selling him or who did they sell him to? If you have a site that has that info, please direct me to it because I do appreciate the truth. However, if you provide a site that has all of this information I am looking for, this is still only one case where one man was sold into slavery not millions of slaves. who knows, the same thing that happened to this King could be the Same thing that happened to Kunta Kente. He was captured by his own people who were already slaves and they were doing what white slave holders ordered them to do. Who knows, the white slave holders probably promised them taht they could sleep with an African woman in exchange for their obedience. Would that scenario be selling of your own people in to slavery? @Babiosis This sounds strange coming from a man in an inter racial marriage. I got love for 925 like I have love for all my brothers and sisters, no matter what 925, he is still my brother but this is the point I was trying to make about him and certain things he say's. It is hypocritical for him to expect that Mamaput deny her German background. His wife is white, does he want his children to deny her white roots and the white roots they have in them? After all Mamaputs Mommy is the one who gave birth to her, we never deny our mommy's no matter what. 925 said his self that to him all women are the mothers no matter the color as far as he was concerned and it is the white man who creates all of the problems not the white woman, that is what he said. True, he is going to have children and they are going to be even more confused if they look at their mother and see she is clearly white and he is clearly black and yet they aren't allowed to claim both. But, you know what? I think 925 is allowed to get away with this, his wife seems to allow him to have his way. 925 I got love for you but the truth is the truth, you can always have your cake and eat it to with the wiffy but in the real world, you can't. @ Mamaput - however Mamaput, I get the impression that the relationship you have with your African father may not be a good one because I never hear you say anything good about him only your mtoher. I get the impression that because you may not have a good relationship with him you look for things negative to say about Africans to justify that even though your mother descends from the people who do African people wrong in terms of slavery and colonialism and such, you also have negative roots with your fathers people, that you fathers people are just as bad. I get the impression that that is what you are trying to show. Just be your self. You don't have to claim either of those races if you do no want to, you are just you and that is it. If anyone cannot accept you, that Is their problem, not yours. For me, you are my sister no matter how racially mixed you are. @ NinetofiveAm the right person to tell you this cause my child is mixed race too, time will make you see what am saying, If my mothers people want to maim me I will run 4/40. 925, if this were true that your children are safer with your African family members than your child would be with white family members, Mamput wouldn't be dealing with identity crisis if that is what she is dealing with. If I remember clearly, Mamaput said something about her friends, African friends not being able to see past her being mixed. Some Africans don't like mixed children as well. Your family love you so they will not hurt your children but don't think that they can't see the fact that your children are mixed and it doesn't make them wonder. I have a brother my father had with a Mexican woman, he is spending some time with me as we speak, for the first time in a long time. I love him and wouldn't hurt him but I do wonder about him, he is much different from me and my other siblings almost foreign. @Somegirl Mamaput, I too think that some blacks were involved in the slave trade Under what grounds do you think this? Thinking is one thing and knowing is another. @Delf747 You have a romanticized and therefore false view of African people. and you have loyalty issues, if you expect for me to believe that my own people willingly gave me up to people who had better weapons than they did, you are not being realistic and you are the one who is romanticized about there being no such thing as loyalty. I know what loyalty is and I will not believe something white people teach to me or black biased people teach without the proof. As a matter a fact, where is the proof you have to make you say such a thing to me, or are you just hopping on the band wagon? It seems like you do that a lot, piggy back into topics and say things about people or to people without any real reason for saying what you say.
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somegirl (f)
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Sista, what makes me think so? Books/articles/websites I've read and the human nature: Wherever there is something to gain, some people will do anything to get it.
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somegirl (f)
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"This essay attempts to trace what happened to the "fabled" profits of the slave trade. We will determine which classes and which groups appropriated the surplus expropriated from the estimated nine to eleven millionn slaves shipped out of Africa. Was it the employers of slaves, the planters in the New World; the purveyors of slaves, either the European merchant or the African trader; the Africans who owned and enslaved other Africans; or the European consumers of plantation crops?" Robert Paul Thomas and Richard Nelson Bean "The African slavers behaved much like modern fishermen, only they were fishers of men. [---] The fishers of men were almost always African and the exporters usually were African. The rest of the steps in sequence were carried on by Europeans." Robert Paul Thomas and Richard Nelson Bean http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0022-0507%28197412%2934%3A4%3C885%3ATFOMTP%3E2.0.CO%3B2-3"African consumption patterns in the era of the slave trade are extremely important, containing as they do the answer to the question of why Africans sold slaves at all." George Metcalf http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0021-8537%281987%2928%3A3%3C377%3AAMOWAS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-S"St Clair wisely sidesteps the bitter and fruitless polemics over whether Africans who sold slaves were "as guilty" as Europeans who bought them." Stephen Howe http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/books/reviews/article1200375.ece"Gates charged that "if Africans had not sold slaves, there would not have been any slavery." But, as I have repeated over and over to undergraduates, one cannot understand African culture and history (or any culture and history) by beginning just at the moment of one particular action, 4 you must put that action into social context, into historical context, and into global context. The video is often devoid of historical and cultural context when Gates renders devastating critiques. If we insert context, then we begin to see that the pressures of British colonial expansion and conquest on the Ashanti leaders and the Asantehene demanded that they protect their territory and their currency (the gold supply) from external control. Given the warfare that was set in motion by foreign intrusions, the Ashanti acquired and used slaves to exchange for guns to prevent British incursions from the south and French incursions from the west, and the jihads and expansions of Samori from the north and west." Gwendolyn Mikell http://www.westafricareview.com/vol1.2/mikell.pdf"Between the African-Americans' memory of slavery and that of continental Africans, there is a shadowy zone that conceals a deep silence: the silence of guilt and the refusal of Africans to face up to the troubling aspect of the crime for which they are directly responsible." Achille J. Mbembe http://muse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/access.cgi?uri=/journals/public_culture/v014/14.1mbembe.html"The vast majority of slaves taken out of Africa were sold by African rulers, traders and a military aristocracy who all grew wealthy from the business. Most slaves were acquired through wars or by kidnapping." Tunde Obadina http://www.africaeconomicanalysis.org/articles/gen/slavehtm.html"When a trader wants slaves he applies to a chief for them and tempts him with his wares." Olaudah Equiano http://jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu/~plarson/smuseum/accounts/equiano/text.htm"During his fieldwork in Nigeria, Njoku learned of the abundance of oral information of how local traders and escorts took enslaved Africans from their villages to slave markets and slave quarters in the interior, and from there to the dealers and traders in the coastal towns." Western Kentucky University "According to Njoku, the slave raiders and recruiters were mainly warriors from a number of villages. "The warriors raided villages and, especially after some kind of intertribal wars, captured people," he said." Western Kentucky University http://www.wku.edu/Dept/Support/AcadAffairs/Magazine/fall03/Trade%20Routes.pdfMore on the slave trade by Johnston A. K. Njoku: http://www.wku.edu/~johnston.njoku/intro/"Finally, attention must be directed to the growing use of money and credit between white slave traders and their local suppliers, as well as between African traders themselves." Henry A. Gemery and Jan S. Hogendorn http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0021-8537%281974%2915%3A2%3C223%3ATASTAT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-A"Slaves were the only significant resources Dahoman kings could command to secure the goods, such as muskets and gunpowder, which they wanted from the Europeans." J. D. Fage http://books.google.com/books?id=KR0oRd5GMGkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=slaves+africa+fage&psp=9 |
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mamaput (f)
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Sista i put up my pictures in this Forum that means my ID is not that secret.
My Father is still alive and lives in Nigeria . So i avoid talking about him at all.
He will not be happy to know that i talk about him on the Internet,.
My Mother is late so it cannot bother her.
By the way many people are close to their mum has nothing to do with colour.
@ 9to5 if you like marry ten white women you will not be white or know whats like to be white.
If you like get 100 mixed kids same gose.
Tell me how old is your child that you are now an expart on mixed people.?
I take that as an insult that you say because u have a mixed child you have the right to tell me some thing.
I have mixed brothers and sisters , children (not child) and i have been mixed for 42 years now .
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mamaput (f)
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@ Sista link i put has changed .
Anyway it was not King Zembola that was sold as a slave it was his son.
The Son of the King( some were in Kongo )
travelled with (you will like this) a white capt called Winton .
according to the story the capt made losses and there for sold the young black prince
In Jamaica i think not USA.
For a Topic like slavery i only have Googel as a source or the few books i have that i bought here written in German.
one of them is a book written by Susanne Everett.
Please do not tell me she is a White woman.
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mamaput (f)
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@ some girl , i think you looked too deep into the link.Like i have said before I only wanted to proof that there were Black slave traders as well.
The impression you have of Dr. Ignatiev , may be very true at the end of a long day some blacks hate whites and the other way round and think the world would be a better place without the other,
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mamaput (f)
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@ Sista if you say there is no black serial Killer i will believe that maybe(those snipers a few years ago can they be called serial killers?)
But to say Black do no bad thats wrong.
Every race is greedy .
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somegirl (f)
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Mamaput, I think I found your site. Is it the following one? "In this retreat my father kept his treasures and valuables. These consisted chiefly of European and American goods (of which spirits and tobacco formed a large proportion), that he had received in barter for slaves; for to tell the plain and honest truth, my father was neither more nor less than a flesh and blood merchant." Zamba "To procure cargoes of slaves, my father went upon an expedition every now and then with his regulars; that is, he went to a distant part of the country, and found ways and means to pick a quarrel with some less powerful tribe, which generally ended by the weaker tribe giving up a number of slaves as ransom; or a fight took place, and the strongest helped themselves." Zamba ""Oh!" said he, laughing, "the women will all get white husbands, and will have little to do but dress and go about: they will be dressed, Prince Zamba, much better than your mother and your sisters; and as for the men, they will be taught to work at various trades, and will be well fed and clothed, and be far better off than in Africa." I swallowed all this implicitly, and thought that in reality they would be better off than if kept by my father and other chiefs as prisoners, in which situation they had no security for their lives for one hour. Captain Winton, however, did not tell me all the facts of the case. I learned them afterwards by my own bitter experience." Zamba http://docsouth.unc.edu/neh/neilson/neilson.html |
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delf747 (m)
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and you have loyalty issues, if you expect for me to believe that my own people willingly gave me up to people who had better weapons than they did, you are not being realistic and you are the one who is romanticized about there being no such thing as loyalty. I know what loyalty is and I will not believe something white people teach to me or black biased people teach without the proof. Sista, You have a very sentimental and romantic view of people in non-Industrialised cultures. It's like they're just helplessly running around until evil Europeans show up and start ripping them to pieces. There is always a structure and hierarchy in a tribe. There are always those who give orders and those who take them. Pagans leaders sacrificed their own people to various Gods. African Kings could have easily fought and defeated the Europeans had they wanted to. Consider when the military might of America took on North Vietnam on it's own territory - it lost. America will lose in Iraq as well. African kings chose the most profitable route for their own people. They saw the wealth and technology of the Europeans and new they could benefit from it themselves. Loyalty is only an issue to gangsters and children. |
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mamaput (f)
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thankyou for that link.
I realy wanted a link that telles the report of a black man written by a black man.
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delf747 (m)
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As a matter a fact, where is the proof you have to make you say such a thing to me, or are you just hopping on the band wagon?
Sista, I practice bushcraft myself. I now how hard it is to go out into the woods/rainforest/desert and survive. Would you be able to start a fire without matches or distill water from a river? People in traditional cultures have an encyclopedic knowledge of living in nature. They know all the plants, animals, trees and what they can be used for. They can track and hunt any animal. Set traps. Navigate by stars or sun. Never go cold or hungry. They can vanish or come upon you in thousands. Europeans in their heavy armour and ignorance of local conditions wouldn't have stood a chance. They'd have been dead meat for sure. |
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chinani (f)
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Black (Africans) people sold slaves. <--- On whatever level this is true & we should to understand but not try to minimize it. If it is true, I need to see the proof. However, let's play devils advocate, let's say this did happen that Africans sold other Africans into slavery. You mean to tell me that Africans had a choice in the situation? If someone was killing thousands of my people, and the power was in my hands, and I knew that my weapons were useless, I might have to make a peace offering that would conclude that I would have to make a deal with white people. In other words, if they want a hundreds slaves, and that will stop them from killing thousands of Africans, I might have to take him up on that offer. I don't believe that Africans willingly gave up Africans, I just don't believe that. White people have been teaching lies to AA children about Africa and Africans for many, many years, I never swallowed those lies and I don't intend to swallow this one because if I do, it may mean that every thing else white people taught was true. I need proof. @ SistaI think along the same lines as you do. Our thoughts are not exactly the same but it is disingenuous for anyone to say that Black Africans participated the in the slave trade to the same extent and/or aforeknowledge as white men (Europeans) and Arabs (of any race). Unlike you, when I read those people, on NL especially, I assume they're pretending. Few people can be that ignorant, but many (more) people just want to "win" an argument. You asked me "why" I think that Africans participated. Well because at a certain point slave traders began buying slaves in Arochukwu. Arochukwu is described incorrectly as a "huge slave market" when in fact it was a "huge market" that sold slaves. (I hope you see the distinction.) This shift could not have happened. Also, my friends and I always talk about what the elders say and the elders do say that people were taken as slaves and sold but that there was a blacklash against it. (If the seller was not Igbo, the elders would say this but they do not.) Arochukwu is just an example and while I'm not Aro the people do not deny this. @ Delf747I think you are being really misleading here, disingenuous infact, I don't think you believe some/most of what you've written. But let me start w/ where you are partially correct. You said They could have easily vanished leaving no traces for the Europeans or any potential for the slave trade to start. Do you know that NW ndi'Igbo shifted downward to stay away from forests & different areas Hausa (& Hausa speaking people) would cross to kidnap them as slaves? My point? There was resistance but there is a limit to all things. These people can not just run over other people & take others' farm land. You know that Nigeria is very dense in places, as is Africa so just "vanishing" is not an option. If I am wrong, (I'm not too smart to be wrong), please give me a specific place or two, as an example. African Kings could have easily fought and defeated the Europeans had they wanted to. You are being very funny here & it makes me sad. Firstly, not all Africans have kings. Igbo people have no king! Secondly, not all "kings" are powerful. See where the Efik king has left them, or Ibibio etc. But then these "kings" are not prepared for European warfare! They do not operate in mass warfare manner. Africans have never had a European style war a la "The Crusades" or "The Hundred Years' War" or the Napoleonic wars" So while, yes, we do have "war tools" and military know-how, it is not the same. This does not make us "noble savages" it just makes us unprepared. Chicken! Please admit that history blindsided them. The same way historians admit that the brutality of say, WWI blindsided the British (who won but had shell shock for the 1st time etc) admit that fighting from the transatlantic slave trade was the same thing (worse) in a similar sense. Thirdly, what you stated is in fact a contradition. Karl Marx said that there can be no capitalism w/o slavery. I say, there can be no slavery w/o kings. It is one thing to buy slaves from Igbo people who do not practice slavery (and don't have a clear concept (image) or even morality about it). It's another thing to buy slaves from Yoruba land, the Kingdom of Benin, and kingdoms in Ghana etc. where slavery is practiced but it is a very definite thing. As in the rulers can not conceive of a different form of slavery and no one tell them. You as a slavery-practicer can not stretch your whiskers and say "You're not going to rape all the women are you?" if you can not conceive of the idea first. Or ask "But they can sue if you overstep the line, right"? (which is how Yoruba people did it). People even now assume that there defnition are congruent. For instance, when you travel abroad or to another area, do you explain what you mean by "hamburger" or "reservation"? No? But these words could result in a different product. For instance, ketchup is different in Argentina & again in Mexico. Or for a more congruent example, is a geisha a slave? How are women, recruited as "geishas" treated in America? These men (the kings) suffered from greed & ignorance but we should not be revisionists & say what percentage of which they had! I could've been 2 parts greed, 8 parts ignorance, or 8 to 2, or 1 to 9. While Sista may be "romantic" you are being an overly certain, revisionist. That leaves you just as far from the truth as Sista. Going back to the "African king" comment, allow me to connect that with the concept of "real Igbo". Now I don't know your ethnicity so I'm going to explain it. (Please I apologize if you're already familiar w/ the concept.) The concept is that some Igbo people are "real Igbo" and some Igbo people are really just kwa-Igbo (as the Brits said), river Igbo, fake Igbo, Edo people on the run. How did this concept come about? Hating -- yes. #1 answer but also, because at a certain point people began crossing the River Niger to get away from kingdoms and slave traders. Many peoples (thousands) left the Kingdom of Benin. Many of these people now have (probably) descendants that are Igbo people they settled so close to Igbo people centuries passed etc. Leaving Edoland is also how the Isoko culture (not an Igbo culture!) started (an Isoko man told me that  ). Again (my point is) people DID resist. Let's not pretend they didn't. Loyalty is only an issue to gangsters and children. Cynicism on crystal meth. I'm going to need breakfast before I rap about this. ****Disclaimer I don't buy into "real Igbo, fake Igbo". If you're Igbo, you're Igbo sha. One Love**** |
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mamaput (f)
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Beware the Brits of Benin many go in but few come out.
The white man had many natural enemies as well Fever and other tropical sickness.
many died.
Not many white men went into the interior of Africa.
Stealing is stealing and killing is killing.
I cannot claime i stole only a chicken. I still stole.
By the way @ sista i often say that the white man is the root of all evil.
But that dose not make me blind to the evils of the black man.
African Kings could have joined together to fight the white man.
How mny guns could the white man have carried into the bush if he had no greedy black man to help him and show him the way.
But they were fighting them selves to make a maket
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