Church Structure & Sole Authority Pastors

TayoD, Welcome back 0! I don't even mind that you came with that your wooden racket !

I was hoping you'D have taken the time off to work on your game. Unfortunately that does not appear to be the case  .


Thank you bro!


I'm not obsessed by men or material things. I am not subject to undue or abusive MOG influence. My desire is to see all partakers of the liberty in Christ and freed from being slaves to men.


We are all susceptible to those vices, but proper structuring of church and believers communion, will ensure that an atmosphere for such vices is not engendered.


Ah, I remember now, wilful misrepresentation of scripture was always your preferred first service  . It beggars belief for any one to think that Paul, "Apostle Paul" would laud anyone for pride. The context and wording in no way suggests that in any of the instances mentioned. Note also that the same Cephas who was a pillar (not the roof or the head mind you), was "withstood to his face" when he stepped out of line". Plurality and equality is key to proper Christian leadership.


Whilst flesh will always mess up, Gods blueprint will certainly nix the mega-star/personality cult rubbish that is endemic nowadays. Talking of which, how's Chris O, aspiring Presido !

TayoD, Please feel free to respond to the questions posed in posts 62 & 91.

God bless and exalt those who humble themselves in His sight.

Have been busy lately.

Here is an illustration of my position using your scenario:


The structure of the different mature churches will look like the one in the attachment (Church Structure) and the administrative structure for the region is also as attached (Admin Structure).

Note:

• There could be variations.  Also nomenclature may vary depending on preference (e.g. overseer=superintendent=bishop, shepherd=pastor etc).
  
  
• The overseers are also shepherds of their respective churches in addition to their supervising offices

Hope this explains your question.

Negative, sir!  Your extrapolation just does not add up.  You are only complicating the model as simple as it is.  Remember the admin structure is just what it says.  The different overseers are in effect pastors/shepherds of some of those churches in each area as well.  They don't sit in the air, mind you.

In the case of growth of the church, 32 simply becomes 32+x (where x is no. of additional churches) and so on.

The focus of any position is not man, stop seeing it as such.  Any minister (whatever calling he has) worth his calling points men to God and not to himself.  And besides,  who told you many   countries cannot be under one region?  The essence is not to have a model that gets too big to administer, hence the need for effective admin at each level.

Ask Paul why he didn't put Timothy in charge of both Ephesus and Crete!

More thoughts later.

There is no SAP in my model!  Nobody with sole authority.  That model is yours.  The leaders/elders still provide the checks, advisory roles etc.

The model is not cast in stone and can reduce or enlarge depending on the size of the whole church, the spread and growth.


Very possible.  If an area gets too big, you split and spread.  Simple.


Most likely.  Has to be someone mature and experienced to lead the flock of Christ and whoelse, except a shepherd at that level.


A region is as large as you make it.  A region maybe 1 country, several countries, or part of a country.  Very flexible!


They shepherd and oversee.


Exactly my point!

From my very first post on this thread (#29), I did make it clear that I'm not comfortable with that appellation of 'sole authority'.  It connotes a case of someone who is power-mongering, control-seeking and position-drunk!

Authority has to be delegated for it to be optimally effective, except the pastor wants to kill himself before his time with too much burden and responsibility.  This is unwise and unnecessary, especially as the church grows.  Jethro advised Moses about it in the wilderness and what a sound counsel it was!

If you check my charts well, there are pastors over individual churches, but they are not 'sole authority'.  Authority can be delegated or supervised.

Bless you.

My responses:


Then why do you keep qualifying them as such?  Pastors should just be pastors and not sole authority pastors or SAP.  I don't confuse office and the officer's conduct.  That only stems from your view of them all over this thread.


Whoever ascribes power to himself is either a fake or is abusing his office.  The genuine ones far outnumber the fake.  They are humble and serve God in spirit and in truth.  Power doesn't have to 'evole into one position' for you to abuse it.  Your model can as well breed an oligarchy of a ruling class over God's heritage.  This is no less an abuse too!


No sir.  No muddying. With authority comes responsiblity.  Authority delegated is responsibility shared.


If Moses could be humble others can be too.  Let's focus one the use of the office and not the abuse of it.  Whatever happened in OT is for our learning and example.  It's still the same God.  If it worked for Moses, Paul etc. it will work for us.


And it is.  I have not done any such thing as qualifying it.  I couldn't find what's not scriptural there.  The qualifications are true to scripture.  Rather it's you that's unduly qualifying and extrapolating.


I have tried as much as possible to make my position so plain and easy to understand.  It worked then and is still working.  I have not seen a perfect church.  I have not seen a perfect people.  That's why we are humans and His strength is made perfect in our weaknesses.  Even in the early church, with the first apostles, theirs was not a perfect one.

Or do you have a flawless one?   

1. There are no qualifications outlined in the bible for anything other than the eldership and the deaconate.

2. There is no biblically prescribed ranking order within the remit for elders. Which is to be plural and equal. As such, they are always addressed as a group in the scriptural narrative.

3. It introduces a clergy/laity split which is patently unscriptural and particularly hated by The Lord. It’s called the the Nicolaitan heresy.

4. It will become top-heavy and deny the fullness of communion and impartation available too and between all believers in properly prescribed body fellowship.

5. It denies the Priesthood of all believers and re-introduces the OT mediatory priesthood model. Mediators other than the Lord are introduced.

6. It gives “headship” to a man. And takes the focus off The Lord. The scriptures are unambiguous in Christ’s Headship of His church.

7. As the model is organisational instead of familial, it becomes bureaucratic, political and flesh-driven instead of Spirit led.

8. It blunts and denies the ministry of the Holy Spirit. He leads those who seek Him into all truth. He points to Jesus (as do the scriptures), not to MOGS.

9. Gifts are given to all as the Spirit wills for the profit of all. But the ordained/no-ordained split focuses attention on a certain subset and consistently on a certain few. This means that in almost every gathering, the main focus is on the one person, instead of the whole body.

10. It denies that Sons of God are led by the Spirit of God. To often the focus becomes on the SAP, MOG or Mentor (Guru'ism).

11. It means that prophesy from non-titled, non-ordained believers without ministries, churches, religious organisations or other platforms (or high profiles), can be ignored.

12. It unbalances scripture by focusing on “feeding” at the expense of “maturing”. God is after sons. The leader/follower split requires that some remain babes (dependant) on others. Please note, babes are no more than servants, and servants do not inherit, sons do!

13. It leads to an ever worsening personality cult/sleazy celebrity circuit problem. It means those titled “MOG” foster (and often downright fabricate) an image of their own hyper-spirituality in order to burnish their own legend, raise their profiles and increase their following.

14. Did I mention the ridiculous outfits?

15. Or the ludicrous (and often blasphemous) titles?

16. It engenders pride (whether you agree or not), as man are not built to handle that kind of authority or adulation that MOGGERY inculcates. Please ask rock-stars how they feel when performing to an adoring audience.

17. It allows error and heresy to become entrenched as there are virtually no checks or balances on the MOG. Followers are prone to reverencing MOGS (hence unbiblical titles such as “reverend”). See 12 above.

18. In a primitive house led, community based church format, error would be contained and checked locally. As congregational autonomy and absence of hierarchical top-down enforcement would stop spread or dissemination.

19. It would be easier to confront error. It’s why Paul could confront Peter. Peter was not his senior and had no authority over him. It’s hard to challenge someone who you feel is in some way spiritually senior to you. How much more so, when there are others senior to him who are re-enforcing the very same thing.

20. It changes Christianity into a “mass march” instead of an individual walk. The focus on hierarchy figures instead of the one-to-one relationship means that everyone is fed the same thing at the same time. Every relationship with His children is at a different stage The Holy Spirit is able to meet every single believer at their unique point of need. It further means that believers are kept away from the Word, either by policy or practice. Further deepening the split and the dependence.

21. The structural flaws lead to doctrinal aberrations and vice-versa in a vicious cycle. Examples are unbiblical covering and warped authority & submission precepts. In attempts to reform or correct the institutional church, many look to doctrine. The truth is that structure and model are equally responsible for its flaws.

22. Because the model is increasingly carnal, worldly mores are introduced into the body. Political correctness, PR budgets, Feminism, etc.

23. Introducing Worldly mores has as a consequence, the application of worldly measures of success. So it becomes about numbers and not disciples. The splendour of the temple as opposed to the maturity of the body. It focuses on things men will applaud, not what will please God.

24. As rampaging flesh is given its head, the church becomes more and more like the world instead of witnessing against it.

25. Like any organisation, it becomes an end in itself and needs money to survive. Hence the propagation of lies like “enforced tithing” (you have to fund this thing somehow!), and that oft repeated lie “It takes money to spread the Gospel”. It does not.

26. It perverts the true use of Christian resources. Money only ever moves in response to need in the body or outside it, but the basis is always true physical need. Instead funds are diverted to paying salaries, temple construction, building empires (ministries) and the like, for which there is no requirement.
 
27. Working for a salary makes you a hireling. It also means many are motivated by the temporal reward. Note worship leaders for hire and the revolving door policy for many salaried pastors (doubtless there are specialist recruitment agencies for church staff these days). It further gives head to the fixation with temporal things, such as temple building. After all, every CEO wants a shiny new corporate headquarters (and the phalanx of staff/offices/departments to go with it), as a focal point for the enterprise.

28. Ultimately it leads the church to partner (read fornicate) with, endorse and become subject to the state/world. Hence misguided (at best) initiatives such as “Political Christianity”

29. As it goes deeper into the world, it loses the sure anchor of the Word of Truth. Scripture has to be discarded or adulterated to ensure worldly acceptability. Hence re-interpreting or questioning the inerrancy of scripture. (The leaven of the Pharisees, Sadducees and Herod). Disastrously compromising pure Christian witness. Female and Homosexual bishops are a case in point. 

30. It abounds further to contextual criticism & reinterpretation. Attacking the very foundations of the faith. Leading to the erosion of core Christian belief both within and without the body. Calling parts of the biblical narrative myth or fairy tale. Denying or re-ascribing the authorship of certain books.

31. It brings imbalance to the family/church alignment as outlined in the bible. Undue authority and influence is ceded to the church and its authority structure.

32. Because in truth, there is no remit or requirement for these “management” positions, they have to create work to justify their salaries/positions/titles. Hence the daily, weekly, monthly, annual rituals (vigils, power nights, anointing nights, youth conventions, dominion hours etc.). Which are really in order to justify the salaried/titled bureaucracy.

33. The deviation increases and morphs into a product led approach to Christianity. I have a ministry of/to – singles, deliverance, prosperity, marriage, family, healing, witchcraft etc – All these things are incidental to Christianity. As a Christian grows and matures, wisdom, experience and discernment increase to enable them to tackle any problem and be delivered from any issue, which are first and foremost a product of an unconverted spirit and un-renewed mind. Keeping them babes, means they are always looking for a product expert in the form of the SAP or MOG.

34. So people are “Deliverance ministers”, instead of deliverance being something that may be required in certain instances and God being able to use any vessel available.  Or take prosperity preachers. In truth, true Christianity is oblivious to wealth or lack thereof. And in any event riches would not be meant for all, all the time, depending on the stage of their walks, calling and purpose.

35. So eventually the MOG, the ministry and the church are all institutionalised. It becomes wholesale idolatry (my pastor, my church, my ministry) and a legalistic human construct that brings men into bondage to the very thing Christ came to set them free from, ritual religion!

A tragic mix of the unscriptural the blasphemous and the carnal. All wrapped up in the idolatrous and the adulterous. It’s why He says “Come out of her my people”.

Let God be true and every man a liar!

God bless

@Analytical,

It appears you have come to the same realisation I was awakened to when discussing with TV01. Thanks for all your inputs so far.  they have been a blessing.

I particularly love this closing statement of yours which is amply suopported by the scripture I will quote hereafter:" A christian is not one by structures or models.  Whether leadership by plurality of elders (as in congregational, some baptists etc) or hierarchical (as in episcopal, penticostal etc), everyone who has believed and accepted the saving grace of Christ is part of His one church, structure or not.".

Here is how Apostle Paul stated this same fact - 1 Corinthinas 12: 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

@TV01,

When you prove yourself to be as paranoid of this mode of administration which you call the SAP, don't you think you are just as bogged down by the same system that you are so vehemently opposed to? You talk about clergy/laity split which is one thing I have no clue about and have never witnessed. Everything must be in your over-active imagination.

I grew up in a denomination where the 'elder' concept was in full operation. Guess what happens? Nothing gets done unless a vote is taken after a quorum is established. The same concept is what is giving rise to homosexual Bishops being ordained just because a body of elders vote such abominations into practice.  The same clergy/laity split you are crying about manifests itself in the elder/laity relationship as well.

The eldership concept as I told you before came from jewish tradition based on the principles in Proverbs 11:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.   And based on Jewish tradition, the older you are, the wiser you are expected to be as stated by Elihu in Job 32:7 I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom.  8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding

By definition and as revealed in scripture (1 Timothy 5:1 for instance), an Elder must be advanced in years and this contradicts the later statement of Elihu in the scripture I stated above. It is a reason why people like Timothy, though called, could never be an Elder which makes foolishness of the wisdom impacted by the Spirit of God and it mirrors the Sanhedrin concept developed by the Jewish people.

I don't expect you to agree with what I've stated. Infact, I'D be shocked if you do. But for goodness sake, do not be quick to make generalisations and judgments of things you know nothing about. God bless.

Como que? What are you doing on my thread  ?

If you come up in here you'll get mashed, like de man them before you  .
Unable to gain ground, they soon scuttled off!
 
You will end up the same way. You have been warned  .

Gods blueprint for the Church of our Lord Jesus Christ has been severally enunciated.
If you have any refutations or scripturally backed alternatives. Then serve! Otherwise.

God bless