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abulbanaat (m)
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Nezan, compile on your foolhardiness, I am preparing for Salat Jum'ah now, when I come back you will see, Insha Allaah.
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Nezan (m)
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Re: Response to 2
Your translation runs contrary to Yusuf Ali. Yusuf Ali attempted to change this word to "Samiri" and Pickthall to "As Samirii." Arberry in the English, and Kasimirski in the French both correctly translate it "Samaritan." Yusuf Ali, in his footnotes, "bends over backwards" to explain his choice by suggesting that the name could mean "Shemer," which denotes a stranger, or "Shomer," which means a watchman, the equivalent of "Samara" in Arabic, which he implies is close enough to the Samari he is looking for, and here are you, translating it to somebody from Iraq. How funny.
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Nezan (m)
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Re: Response No.3
You say the uniqueness was because John was born of a barren mother? was he the only one to be born of a barren mother? what of Samuel? There is no way you can bend this over to what you want to believe! mohammed believed that John never had a namesake before!
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Nezan (m)
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Re: Response to 4
The Egyptians executed people by impaling a pointed stake [or tp-ht in hieroglyphs] through the victim. Centuries later, the Romans executed people by fastening the victim to a cross with rope or nails, and they called this crucifixion. Simply put, crucifixion defines a method of execution used by the Romans and the techniques of impalement used by the ancient Egyptians cannot properly be referred to as crucifixion.
Impalement is usually defined as "an act of torture and/or execution whereby the victim is pierced by a long stake, in contrast to crucification.
In 'Judgement of the Pharaoh, Crime and Punishment in Ancient Egypt', the author, Joyce A Tyldesley proved that the Egyptians used impalement and not crucification.
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Nezan (m)
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Re: Response to 5
The Egyptians constructed their public buildings with 'cut stone', not 'bricks'. The Mesopotamians, by comparison, constructed most of their public buildings with baked bricks since they lacked a good source of cut stone.
Paul T. Nicholson and Ian Shaw (Ancient Egyptian materials and technology, Cambridge, New York: Cambridge University Press, 2000) conclude:
'One factor inhibiting the use of fired brick has presumably been the added cost of the fuel needed for the firing, as well as the need for a more suitable (and expensive) mortar, which, in the Hellenistic period, was lime (page 79)'.
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Nezan (m)
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Re: Response to 6
And WE revealed to Moses, directing him, ‘Take away MY servants by night, you will surely be pursued.’ And Pharaoh sent summoners into the cities, announcing, ‘These are a small party, Yet they have offended us; And we are a multitude fully prepared and vigilant.’ So WE turned them out of gardens and springs, And treasures and an abode of honour. Thus it was; and WE gave them as heritage to the children of Israel. S. 26:52-59 Sher Ali
The foregoing verses indicate that the Israelites were made the inheritors of Egypt right after the destruction of Pharaoh and his armies in the sea. The Egyptians were "turned out" and their gardens were given to the children of Israel. The next citations support this position:
They said: We have been persecuted before you came to us and since you have come to us. He said: It may be that your Lord will destroy your enemy and make you rulers in the land, then He will see how you act. And certainly We overtook Firon's people with droughts and diminution of fruits that they may be mindful. S. 7:129-130 Shakir
Therefore We inflicted retribution on them and drowned them in the sea because they rejected Our signs and were heedless of them. And We made the people who were deemed weak to inherit the eastern land and the western ones which We had blessed; and the good word of your Lord was fulfilled in the children of Israel because they bore up (sufferings) patiently; and We utterly destroyed what Firon and his people had wrought and what they built. S. 7:136-137
When taking these passages together as a unit (which we must seeing that they are all part of the same context) then the conclusion is that Israel was given the eastern and western parts of Egypt and became rulers of it. This next quote provides further substantiation that the Quran's author(s) erroenously assumed that Israel did take over Egypt:
We will recite to thee something of the tiding of Moses and Pharaoh truthfully, for a people who believe. Now Pharaoh had exalted himself IN THE LAND and had divided its inhabitants into sects, abasing one party of them, slaughtering their sons, and sparing their women; for he was of the workers of corruption. Yet We desired to be gracious to those that were abased IN THE LAND, and to make them LEADERS, and to make them THE INHERITORS, AND TO ESTABLISH THEM IN THE LAND, and to show Pharaoh and Haman, and their hosts, what they were dreading from them. S. 28:2-6 Arberry
Quite obviously, since the Israelites were the weak party which Pharaoh abased in the land then this means that they were the ones who inherited the land of Egypt! This passage three times uses "in the land": The Pharaoh had exalted himself "in the land" (in Egypt), the Israelites are "those that were abased in the land" (in Egypt) and Allah decided to "to make them inheritors, and to establish them in the land". The only logical interpretation is that Allah intended to establish them in the same land that was spoken about throughout these verses. There is absolutely no indication that "the land" refers to some other country. It does not say "and to establish them in another land".
Moreover, the Quran in Q. 7:110 and 7:123 (as well as in Q. 20:57,63) says that Pharaoh and his chiefs were dreading that the Israelites would expel the Egyptians out of the land:
Said the Council of the people of Pharaoh, 'Surely this man is a cunning sorcerer who desires to expel you from your land; what do you command?' , Said Pharaoh, 'You have believed in Him before I gave you leave. Surely this is a device you have devised in the city that you may expel its people from it. Now you shall know!
This again implicitly supports the fact that the author(s) mistakenly thought that the land that God promised to grant the Israelites was Egypt.
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Nezan (m)
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Re; Response to 7
Jesus never claim to receive any 'injeel' from God. The Gospels were written by the Apostles (with the leading of the Holy Spirit) of Jesus' teachings, life and death.
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Nezan (m)
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And the contradictions continue . . . . .
Contradiction 8
Glory to (Allah)
Who did take His Servant for a journey by night,
From the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque.
-- Sura 17:1
Problem: The Farthest Mosque (Al-Masjid-ul-Aqs-a) was built many years after the death of Muhammad. It is utterly impossible that Muhammad visited it on his Night Journey.
When the Arabs conquered Jerusalem they found the Temple Mount abandoned and filled with refuse. , `Umar ordered it cleaned and performed a prayer there. The sanctuary [the Dome of the Rock] , was built by Caliph `Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan around 72/691. The al-Aqsa mosque proper, also located on the Temple Mount was as well built at the end of the 7th Century.
The Temple of Solomon had been completely destroyed in 70 AD, i.e. 550 years before the alleged time of the Miraj in 622 AD, the twelfth year of Muhammad's mission. A Temple that didn't exist anymore does not provide any better solution to this problem than a Mosque which wasn't built yet.
At the time this verse was revealed [about 622] Jerusalem was not in the hand of the Muslims but in Christian hand and there was no Mosque at all in this place (not even a church). The Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (both on the site of Solomon's Temple which had been destroyed A.D. 70 by the Romans) were only began to be build 53 years after the death of Muhammad.
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Nezan (m)
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Contradiction 9
According to the Quran (Surah 18:89-98) Alexander the Great was a devout Muslim and lived to a ripe old age. Historical records however show that Alexander the Great died young at 33 years of age (356 - 323 B.C.), and believed he himself was divine, forcing others to recognize him as such. In India on the Hyphasis River (now Beas) Alexander erected twelve altars to twelve Olympian gods.
Once again the Quran shows errors in historical and religious fact.
Alexander the Great is proven to be an idolator and even claimed deity for himself and cannot by the widest stretch of imagination be called a Muslim.
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Nezan (m)
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Contradiction 10
After the showdown of Moses against the sorcerers of Egypt in which the miracles of Moses are so convincing that the sorcerers afterwards believe in the God of Moses, and Pharaoh therefore punishing them for their betrayal, we read that the chiefs of the Egyptians turn to Pharaoh with a concern:
The chiefs of Fir'aun's (Pharaoh) people said: "Will you leave Musa (Moses) and his people to spread mischief in the land, and to abandon you and your gods?" He said: "We will kill their sons, and let live their women, and we have indeed irresistible power over them." S. 7:127 Al-Hilali & Khan
The main point, however, is this: The chiefs of the Egyptians point out that this victory of Moses over the Egyptian magicians could result in an abandonment of the gods of Egypt in favor of the God of Moses. In particular, it testifies to the fact that the Egyptians were polytheists at the time, worshipping many gods. Moreover, the statement of the chiefs of the people distinguishes between Pharaoh and the gods when they caution that the people may "abandon you and your gods". Pharaoh is not identical with the gods, and the gods of Pharaoh are also the gods of the Egyptians since otherwise it would not make any sense to fear an abandoning of these gods if the Egyptians never worshipped them in the first place.
This passage therefore testifies to the fact that many gods were worshipped in Egypt at the time of Moses, and it presupposes that the gods of Pharaoh were also the gods of his people.
Yet, in another version of the story the Quran claims that the Pharaoh responded to Moses’ message and miracles with these words:
Fir'aun (Pharaoh) said: "O chiefs! I know not that you have an ilah (a god) other than me, so kindle for me (a fire), O Haman, to bake (bricks out of) clay, and set up for me a Sarhan (a lofty tower, or palace, etc.) in order that I may look at (or look for) the Ilah (God) of Musa (Moses); and verily, I think that he [Musa (Moses)] is one of the liars." S. 28:38 Al-Hilali & Khan
And Pharaoh said, ‘Council, I know not that you have any god but me. Kindle me, Haman, a fire upon the clay, and make me a tower, that I may mount up to Moses' god; for I think that he is one of the liars.’ S. 28:38 Arberry
In other words, the Pharaoh claims that he is the only god for his people, the Egyptians, in direct contradiction to 7:127 where the chiefs of his people express concern that Moses’ victory could lead to the downfall of their traditional Egyptian gods (in the plural).
In summary, the Qur'an contains these contradictory statements about the religion of the Egyptians at the time of Moses:
According to Surah 7:127 the Egyptians worshipped many gods.
According to Surah 28:38 Pharaoh was the only god of the Egyptians.
The next question to investigate would be this: What does history say about the religion of the ancient Egyptians. Did the Egyptians have many gods or only one god? Since this may not have been the same at all times, we would have to ask more specifically: What was the religion of the Egyptians at the time of the Exodus?
Independent from the answer to this historical question, however, the tension and discrepancy in the Qur’an remains. The Qur’an speaks of the Egyptians as having many gods in S. 7:127 but in S. 28:38 it is stated that the Pharaoh was the only god of the Egyptians. These passages do not refer to different times in Egyptian history, but they explicitly speak of the very same Pharaoh directly after his confrontation with Moses.
In fact, history informs us that the Egyptians worshipped many gods
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olabowale (m)
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@Nezan: Crucifixion: A method of carrying out the death penalty which involved physical abuse of the victim, stripping him/her of all clothing, tying or nailing the arms and legs to a cross or stake, and abandoning the victim to die. The corpse was often partly eaten by scavengers. The body was generally denied a proper burial; it was tossed on a garbage heap. Crucifixion was widely used within the Roman Empire to execute either slaves or rebels.
Dhul Qarnayn in Surah Kahf was mentioned, and not Alexander and there is no mentioning of him being muslim or not muslim!
Contradiction #10: Allah says in Surah Taha to Musa (AS), about Fir'aum, that Pharaoh has trangressed all boundary of ewilness. Is it a surprising thing then that a person like that who reneged on his promises to Moses, again and again to declare that he was himself his people's god, so that he may continue to control him? Were there many people in his court to correct him, since he even killed his own wife, who is safe with him, except by Allah's permission and protection; finally he led them and himself to perish in the sea, though the Bible did not clearly indicate that he perished in the sea, the Quran was very clear about it.
Let me amuse myself here; though the christian say that there is three person's god, but sometime and almost all the time to show importance of Jesus in their lives, dont they say Jesus himself is the one god in three forms? and also say that Jesus is even "higher" than the holy Spirit, remember?
Masjid Aqsa occupies the place that Allah says He took His Servant (Muhammad) AS to from Makka! Do people even think at all? I have prayed in many masajid without walls, or outside a masajid in the open sky of it, outside!
Injeel was revealed to Jesus a Jew by tradition/culture, and under him as companions were his disciples, all of them Jews! It was later that they were called Christians, after the total revelations of Injeel, still unwritten, but revealed and Jesus was already lifted! The fact that it was later written by the later generation is actually a proof of its impurity, after a while after Jesus was lifted, and there was a disagreement within the ranks of the disciples, tanks to johnnie comes lately Saul Paul the apostle!
But what did Jesus preach, except Injel; goodnew. the gospel?
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olabowale (m)
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where did the children of Israel, a mere race of slaves got the Gold (a simple example of heritage of Free slave owners' egyptians) which tey used to make the Golden calf? They found it on the way in the wilderness or took it from the Egyptians, since slaves dont really acquire anything, and we cant make the Israelites an exception in this old age historical rue of thimb of master /slave wealth acquisitions?
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olabowale (m)
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@Nezan: Re: Response to 2 Allah calls the person from the company of the Children of Israel in the wilderness samiri or samiriyu in sentence. Where is the problem? Its a name of a person and thats it, while you make a mountain out of a mere mole! Response to 5 Buildings were in pharaoh periods were not all stones; Check other public buildings, except the Tombs! Duuh. www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/building/ - Cached - Similar www.touregypt.net/KIDS/monuments.htm - Cached - Similar www.britannica.com/, /building, /Stone-construction-in-Egypt - Cached - Similar www.cartage.org.lb/, /EgyptianArchitecture/BuildinginancientEgypt/BuildinginancientEgypt.htm - Cached - Similar Stone construction in Egypt Like the other great river valley cultures, Egypt built its cities with mud brick; fired brick did not appear there until Roman times. Timber was used sparingly, for it was never abundant. It was used mainly in roofs, where it was heavily supplemented by reeds. Only a few royal buildings were built with full timber frames. It was against this drab background of endless mud brick houses that a new technology of cut-stone construction emerged in the temples and pyramids of the 4th dynasty (c. 2575–c. 2465 bc). Egypt, unlike Mesopotamia or the Indus valley, had excellent deposits of stone exposed above ground; limestone, sandstone, and granite were all available. But the extracting, moving, and working of stone was a costly process, and the quarrying of stone was a state monopoly. Stone emerged as an elite construction material used only for important state buildings. The Egyptians developed cut stone for use in royal mortuary buildings not only for its strength but also for its durability. It seemed the best material to offer eternal protection to the pharaoh’s ka, the vital force he derived from the sun-god and through which he ruled. Thus stone had both a functional and symbolic significance. Response on #6 talking about "in the land" for those with wrong understanding to indicate that Allah promised the Children of Israel a land called Egypt, is completely absurd! Allah promised believers as inheritors of the assigned heritage of Ibrahim (AS)! The Israelites, later becoming the Jews ae not blankedly covered, against the arabs and or believers in general, if they are disbelievers! Now between the Children of Israel and the tyrannial Fir'awn with the evil and oppressive Egyptians under him, were losers and diselievers, while the cHildren of Israel were believers, reason that Musa was sent to give glad tiding of them getting from under the slavery, while warning the egyptians of impending punishment! After the children of Israel became complacent and do evil, in the long run, from history, they were defeated and carted away, and finally, the window of spiritual equality was opened to the rest of the world, through Arab Muhammad (AS), and it is the believers that will inherit the land of Ibrahim (Jerusalem being the symbol), while a sound aqeedah (true belief as in Islamic monotheism shall inherit the world; choking of the evil beliefs of atheism, agnostics, polytheism, Judaism, christianity. |
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olabowale (m)
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good argument is wasted on ignorance.
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abulbanaat (m)
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He said: “A "coin" is a standard weight of some metal that is stamped with the design,
Answer: For he who can read very well will not fail to quickly grasp the sense of foolhardiness of your source. Well I don’t blame you much, you are a Christian making frantic efforts to remain in Christianity after the truth has come. And those sources of yours have only played on your intelligence, and they have made you believe that you have a belief that can save you in the Sight of your Creator on the Day of Resurrection. You have all failed, you better re-trace your step back to Islam before your ignorance and arrogance land you in everlasting perdition (as I often sound it to the hearing of your ‘son’ or ‘brother’ GODSON).
The claim of your source is that ‘There is some debate over which coin is the world's oldest.’ That is their first failure, so those historians could not conclude when the coin made surfaced into the world. And you said the Egyptian trader who bought Joseph did not use silver-coin (dir’ham) to buy him. Did your sources really read about the Egyptian Civilization? So there was no gold or silver in Egypt during the time of Joseph?
Your problem is that of semantics if you know what Linguistics is. The term ‘money’ is a recent coinage. What will you call the legal tender people of old used in their time? The same thing applies to Dir’haam. It was initially used to mean silver-coin then used generally to refer to money.
And your sources said it was Muhammad that began the usage of the term. What a misinformation. Then we ask them to tell us what that Arabs used to spend before Muhammad, maybe it was cowries!
Important Notice: This was what I prepared after I saw your initial response. I could not reply since yesterday because my connection was down. Alhamdulillah Sir Olabowale has rightly answered you so I need not waste my energy again for a soul not wanting salvation.
Nezan the question again is, bring the contradictions in the Qur’aan not where the Qur’aan contradicts the non-ending historical debates of what came before what.
I like to give you a question that you must solve with your historical facts. Where is the historical proof that there was Noah Flood, and that an ark as big as the one Noah used could carry the whole mankind at that time? And that the knwoldge of the time could make him construct that?
[Muslims believe in the Noah Flood because the Qur’aan says it, we don’t depend on Nezan’s ‘historical facts.’]
Maybe you will even say the Qur’aan contradicts Charles Darwin ‘historical evolutionary facts.’ Munmun.
Nezan, free your conscience.
Thank you Sir Olabowale O jare.
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muhsin (m)
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Salam, brothers
May Allah bless you, but. . .
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abulbanaat (m)
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I could understand Muhsin's fear, well I will take that: I will hands off for now unless they come again, and i will try to remain unperturbed until they go beyond bounds. But they must know that we will not sit cross-legged while they attack Islam with their mouths, never.
Anyway thank you Muhsin, but remember we need not be apologetic, Islam is the ONLY WAY.
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Nezan (m)
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@olabowale, Crucifixion was widely used within the Roman Empire to execute either slaves or rebels. Next time you are coming into an argument, try to read the preceeding posts to know what is been discussed. I was the one trying to educate abulbanaat that crucifixion was not used in ancient egypt at the time of Moses, that the koran goofed on this! as you rightly pointed out, it was much later that the Roman Empire began to use this as a means of capital punishment. Contradiction #10: Allah says in Surah Taha to Musa (AS), about Fir'aum, that Pharaoh has trangressed all boundary of ewilness. Is it a surprising thing then that a person like that who reneged on his promises to Moses, again and again to declare that he was himself his people's god, so that he may continue to control him? Were there many people in his court to correct him, since he even killed his own wife, who is safe with him, except by Allah's permission and protection; finally he led them and himself to perish in the sea, though the Bible did not clearly indicate that he perished in the sea, the Quran was very clear about it. I really wonder the point you are trying to make? The fact is that the koran goofed when it said that the egyptians worshipped many gods, and in another breathe, said that pharoah was the god of the egyptians. Better compose yourself and come up with a comprehendable explanation. If pharoah was egypt's god, why refer to egyptians then as polytheists? simple question. |
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Nezan (m)
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Injeel was revealed to Jesus a Jew by tradition/culture, and under him as companions were his disciples, all of them Jews! It was later that they were called Christians, after the total revelations of Injeel, still unwritten, but revealed and Jesus was already lifted! The fact that it was later written by the later generation is actually a proof of its impurity, after a while after Jesus was lifted, and there was a disagreement within the ranks of the disciples, tanks to johnnie comes lately Saul Paul the apostle! mohammed claimed to receive the koranic revelation, was dictating it to be written on leaves (of which a goat ate parts), hides etc, Jesus never claim to receive any injeel! He never dictated any injeel to be written down! what the koran erroneously tried to potray as the injeel was not written down by Jesus, neither did He commanded His disciples to write it down! the disciples were rather lead by the Holy Spirit to write down a recollection of the teachings, life, death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, contrary to the false claims of the koran. Maybe you will even say the Qur’aan contradicts Charles Darwin ‘historical evolutionary facts.’ Munmun. Stop derailing the OP, must you always resort to abuse when you are cornered? |
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Nezan (m)
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where did the children of Israel, a mere race of slaves got the Gold (a simple example of heritage of Free slave owners' egyptians) which tey used to make the Golden calf? They found it on the way in the wilderness or took it from the Egyptians, since slaves dont really acquire anything, and we cant make the Israelites an exception in this old age historical rue of thimb of master /slave wealth acquisitions? This is where I always say the koran was a bad plagiarisation of the Bible. When the Israelites were coming out of Egypt, God caused the Egyptians to give the Israelites gifts of gold, silver, etc, which were later used to make the calf. No wonder the koran is full of contradictions. Allah calls the person from the company of the Children of Israel in the wilderness samiri or samiriyu in sentence. Where is the problem? Its a name of a person and thats it, while you make a mountain out of a mere mole! So what are we to believe now? Yusuf Alli said the name mean watchman. abulbanaat said the name means somebody from Iraq olabowale said its the name of a person Is this not delusion?  |
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Nezan (m)
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Stone construction in Egypt
Like the other great river valley cultures, Egypt built its cities with mud brick; fired brick did not appear there until Roman times. Timber was used sparingly, for it was never abundant. It was used mainly in roofs, where it was heavily supplemented by reeds. Only a few royal buildings were built with full timber frames. Thank you for backing my argument. Your koran erroneosly argued that Egyptians used 'fired bricks' against 'mud bricks', and abulbanaat was trying to let me believe that 'cut stone' means 'fired bricks'. So much for islam, 'boko haram'! Response on #6 talking about "in the land" for those with wrong understanding to indicate that Allah promised the Children of Israel a land called Egypt, is completely absurd! Allah promised believers as inheritors of the assigned heritage of Ibrahim (AS)! The Israelites, later becoming the Jews ae not blankedly covered, against the arabs and or believers in general, if they are disbelievers! God gave the Jews the promised land of canaan, but your koran made it to appear as if it is Egypt, and here are you claiming that God never promised them any land! which sect of islam are you? are you a member of the Ahmadiyya movement?  |
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Nezan (m)
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He said: “A "coin" is a standard weight of some metal that is stamped with the design,
Answer: For he who can read very well will not fail to quickly grasp the sense of foolhardiness of your source. Well I don’t blame you much, you are a Christian making frantic efforts to remain in Christianity after the truth has come. And those sources of yours have only played on your intelligence, and they have made you believe that you have a belief that can save you in the Sight of your Creator on the Day of Resurrection. You have all failed, you better re-trace your step back to Islam before your ignorance and arrogance land you in everlasting perdition (as I often sound it to the hearing of your ‘son’ or ‘brother’ GODSON). @ abulbanaat; Your arguments are too duh! You challenged me to give you a source to my claims, after giving you, the logical thing to do is to discredit my sources instead of claiming that they played on my intelligence. Be logical, man, and stop hiding under the cloak of islam! Bring out sources to discredit my claims instead of spewing out illogical posts. N.B. You people failed to respond to the other contradictions!!! |
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Nezan (m)
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contradiction 11:
Till, when he [the traveller Zul-qarnain] reached
the setting-place of the sun,
he found it going down into a muddy spring, ,
-- Sura Sura 18:86
Till, when he reached the rising-place of the sun,
he found it rising on a people
for whom We had appointed no shelter from it.
-- Sura Sura 18:90
First: It is scientifically proven that the sun does not go down in a muddy spring.
Second: This seems to presuppose a flat earth, otherwise how can there be an extreme point in the West or in the East? It does not say, he went as far as possible on land in these directions and then observed the sun-rise or sun-set while standing at this shore. A sunrise there would be basically just the same as at any other place on this earth, at land or sea. It would still look as if it is setting "far away". It does say, that he reached THE PLACE where the sun sets and in his second journey the place where it rises.
Furthermore: Yusuf Ali in his commentary reports that Zul-qarnain is thought to be Alexander the Great. And so does the "Concise Dictionary of Islam." Looking at verses 98-101, this would make Alexander the Great a Muslim -- 1000 years before Muhammad. Yet that is for sure not true. The history does not relate that Alexander the Great had any other religion than the pagan Greeks he came from and ruled over. This is historically blatantly false.
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Nezan (m)
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contradiction 12:
In the Qur'an we find the following statements about the moon and the stars:
He Who created the seven heavens, one above the other ,
And We have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps , (67:3,5)
And He completed them seven heavens in two days
and inspired in each heaven its command;
and We adorned the lower heaven with lamps,
and rendered it guarded, (41:12)
We have indeed adorned the lower heaven with the beauty of the stars. (37:6)
Do you not see how God has created the seven heavens
one above the other,
and made the moon a light in their midst,
and made the sun as a lamp? (71:15-16)
The above is Yusuf Ali's translation. Pickthall renders Sura 71:16 as
And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp?
The Qur'an seems to teach that there are seven heavens, one above the other, whether it was imagined to be like storeys in a high building (flat layers) or like shells or the layers of an onion.
As a poetic way of expression this is acceptable, even though there are, scientifically speaking, no discernable stages in the universe that would allow us to differentiate between those various heavens.
However, the Qur'an specifically assigns the stars to a lower or even the lowest heaven, while it states the relationship of the moon to the totality of the seven heavens is that it is "in them" (fehinna). This gives the impression that the moon is at least as far away as the stars if not further.
But everyone knows today that the stars are much much further away from the earth than the moon. This is not a small difference, it is an issue of several magnitudes. The average distance from the earth to the moon is 384,400 km, while Proxima Centauri, the closest star to us outside of the solar system, is already about 4.3 light years = 40,682,300,000,000 km (40 trillion kilometers) away, or expressed differently, we need to multiply the distance of the moon by more than 100 million to reach even the nearest of all the stars.
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Nezan (m)
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I am looking forward to further refutations of these and the other ones you people dodged  |
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olabowale (m)
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@Nezan: « #81 on: Today at 10:10:57 AM » @olabowale,
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Crucifixion was widely used within the Roman Empire to execute either slaves or rebels.
Next time you are coming into an argument, try to read the preceeding posts to know what is been discussed. I was the one trying to educate abulbanaat that crucifixion was not used in ancient egypt at the time of Moses, that the koran goofed on this! as you rightly pointed out, it was much later that the Roman Empire began to use this as a means of capital punishment. Nezan, you are a very dishonest soul. What I wrote is more than what you mentioned for me. I indicated that crucifixion is more than a cross death, but included ordinary stake! Read my statement, again, below: Posted on: October 16, 2009, 10:26 PMPosted by: olabowale
Insert Quote @Nezan: Crucifixion: A method of carrying out the death penalty which involved physical abuse of the victim, stripping him/her of all clothing, tying or nailing the arms and legs to a cross or stake, and abandoning the victim to die. The corpse was often partly eaten by scavengers. The body was generally denied a proper burial; it was tossed on a garbage heap. Crucifixion was widely used within the Roman Empire to execute either slaves or rebels. I really wonder the point you are trying to make? The fact is that the koran goofed when it said that the egyptians worshipped many gods, and in another breathe, said that pharoah was the god of the egyptians. Better compose yourself and come up with a comprehendable explanation. If pharoah was egypt's god, why refer to egyptians then as polytheists? simple question. Even you today, you are a polytheist! You have a big God; Father and smaller gods; Jesus is one that you use his name to appease or appeal to the big God as follows in your prayer "in jesus name, " No? When push really comes to shove you say the big god is really your God, because he created everything, and the small God, Jesus did not come to existence until "lets there be light as a word of Big God"! No?. And before this; Abraham destroyed all the smaller gods, gods of his people by all means, but left the big god so that he can make fun of their foolishness, shocking them back to some good sense/common sense, which they fail to accept, because of arrogance. It is the same form of arrogance that you and the christians have when you make a common man a God along with his Creator, and equate His angel (Jibril) as god with Him, too. Now, none of the gods of egypt can animated, alive like human, except the priests act on their figurine behaves. Hence Pharaoh in his arrogance, as I have said made himself also god, now more than a king so that he can suppress his people's ability to free themselves and emancipate themselves into the truth of Musa (AS). You cant deny the truth, by now. |
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olabowale (m)
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@Nezan« #82 on: Today at 10:20:59 AM » mohammed claimed to receive the koranic revelation, was dictating it to be written on leaves (of which a goat ate parts), hides etc, Jesus never claim to receive any injeel! He never dictated any injeel to be written down! what the koran erroneously tried to potray as the injeel was not written down by Jesus, neither did He commanded His disciples to write it down! the disciples were rather lead by the Holy Spirit to write down a recollection of the teachings, life, death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, contrary to the false claims of the koran. When Jesus was reported to have preached the Gospel, was it already written down by the writers, then, while Jesus was still here, what was meant by "preach the Gospel" relative to Jesus preaching among his people? I thought Jesus left before they wrote it down, so how did he preach what was not revealed to him, but was a collection of his preaching, life works, etc by people left behind? « #83 on: Today at 10:29:24 AM »
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where did the children of Israel, a mere race of slaves got the Gold (a simple example of heritage of Free slave owners' egyptians) which tey used to make the Golden calf? They found it on the way in the wilderness or took it from the Egyptians, since slaves dont really acquire anything, and we cant make the Israelites an exception in this old age historical rue of thimb of master /slave wealth acquisitions?
This is where I always say the koran was a bad plagiarisation of the Bible. When the Israelites were coming out of Egypt, God caused the Egyptians to give the Israelites gifts of gold, silver, etc, which were later used to make the calf. No wonder the koran is full of contradictions. Have you seen a Jew before? He can talk you to give your last Kobo to him, while he has a pile high of Naira! I wonder if the Egyptians who have been berieved will simply and easily give gifts to their slaves who have caused them so much sadness as they lost their first born, as they are leaving this work for nothing position will give gifts of the most expensive thing; Gold and others? American blacks are still waiting for the promised 40 Acres and a Mule, from the USA, and you expect the egyptian victims in their tyranny to give their possessions to the Children of Israel, and yet America is more liberal and cant even fulfill their own promise? Allah calls the person from the company of the Children of Israel in the wilderness samiri or samiriyu in sentence. Where is the problem? Its a name of a person and thats it, while you make a mountain out of a mere mole!
So what are we to believe now? Yusuf Alli said the name mean watchman.
abulbanaat said the name means somebody from Iraq
olabowale said its the name of a person
Is this not delusion? Whats delutional about it? Alhamdulillah, each one of us is describing a single man, and not a tribe! More importantly, he must have left with them from Egypt or joined up with them on the way, but was already an accepted companion at the eent of golden calf. What I saw was Samiri, an identity of a person, a proper name! I am called Babajebu in my family by my inlaws who are not from Ijebu bloodlines. I am called Olabowale because its a name for me. Yet am called others, my muslim name, and Mr. when my family name is used, and father of Lai by my mother, and others as they wish. But it is still me; same here as Samiri is a name of the leader of idol worshipping at the time of exodus of the Israelites. |
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olabowale (m)
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N.B. You people failed to respond to the other contradictions!!! @Nezan: Posted on: Today at 10:38:47 AMPosted by: Nezan Insert Quote
Quote; Stone construction in Egypt: Like the other great river valley cultures, Egypt built its cities with mud brick; fired brick did not appear there until Roman times. Timber was used sparingly, for it was never abundant. It was used mainly in roofs, where it was heavily supplemented by reeds. Only a few royal buildings were built with full timber frames.
Thank you for backing my argument. Your koran erroneosly argued that Egyptians used 'fired bricks' against 'mud bricks', and abulbanaat was trying to let me believe that 'cut stone' means 'fired bricks'. So much for islam, 'boko haram'! My saying that fired brick did not appear could not have been translated by educated mind to mean that the idea of this method of brick making was at least thought about before, and could not mean that a structure was not at least designed with it. It simply means from my understanding that this technology was not established yet or widespread, a commonly used yet. Your Bible even was saying someting like that; check your previous entry out below; the part below bolded. Entry made by Nezan: « #34 on: October 14, 2009, 10:47 AM » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No. 5 A Tower of Burnt bricks in Egypt? How did it get there? And Pharaoh said: O chiefs! I know not that ye have a god other than me, so kindle for me (a fire), O Haman, to bake the mud; and set up for me a lofty tower in order that I may survey the god of Moses; and lo! I deem him of the liars. [Sura 28:38] This is a very interesting verse for several reasons. This command of Pharaoh is a problem for the authenticity and accuracy of the Qur'an since at the time of Moses Egyptians didn't construct buildings out of burnt clay, i.e. this is a historical contradiction. See the dictionary entry on Bricks for more details. The next question would be to ask, where this motive comes from. Interestingly, there is a well-known story which fits these details. In Genesis 11:3-4a we read:
They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They used brick instead of stone, and bitumen for mortar. Then they said, "Come let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches heaven, , " The original story of Moses and Pharaoh as reported in the Torah, the book of Exodus, reports historically accurate of the Israelites being forced to make bricks with straw (which are then sun-dried). This story has no mentioning of a tower for Pharaoh to reach God. It seems that the author of the Qur'an confused or for other reasons conflated these two stories from the Torah, the Exodus of Israel and the tower of Babel. |
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olabowale (m)
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The Arrogance of Fir`awn and His ultimate Destiny
Allah tells us of Fir`awn's disbelief and wrongdoing, and how he falsely claimed divinity for his evil self, may Allah curse him. (Thus he fooled his people, and they obeyed him.) [43:54] He called on his people to recognize his divinity, and they responded, because of their weak and foolish minds. So, he said: (O chiefs! I know not that you have a god other than me.) Allah tells us about Fir`awn:
(Then he gathered (his people) and cried aloud, saying: "I am your lord, most high.'' So Allah, seized him with punishment for his last and first transgression. Verily, in this is an instructive admonition for whosoever fears Allah.) (79:23-26) meaning: he brought his people together and called to them in a loud voice, shouting that, and they responded to him obediently. So Allah took revenge on him, and made him a lesson to others in this world and the Hereafter. He even confronted Musa with that, and said: (If you choose a god other than me, I will certainly put you among the prisoners) (26:29).
(So kindle for me (a fire), O Haman, to bake (bricks out of) clay, and set up for me a Sarh in order that I may look at the God of Musa;) He commanded his minister and adviser Haman to bake bricks for him, i.e., to make bricks in order to build a Sarh, a exalted towering palace. This is like the Ayah, (And Fir`awn said: "O Haman! Build me a Sarh that I may arrive at the ways -- the ways of the heavens, and I may look upon the God of Musa, but verily, I think him to be a liar.''
Thus it was made fair seeming, in Fir`awn's eyes, the evil of his deeds, and he was hindered from the path; and the plot of Fir`awn led to nothing but loss and destruction) (40:36-37). Fir`awn built this tower, which was the highest structure ever seen on earth, (At that moment in time; an engineering wonder and monument just like the the pyramids are) because he wanted to show his people that Musa was lying when he claimed that there was a God other than Fir`awn. Fir`awn said: (and verily, I think that he (Musa) is one of the liars.) meaning, `when he says that there is a lord other than me.' The issue was not whether Allah had sent Musa, because he did not acknowledge the existence of the Creator in the first place. On the contrary, he said: (And what is the Lord of Al-`Alamin) (26:23) and:
(If you choose a god other than me, I will certainly put you among the prisoners.) (26:29) and he said: (O chiefs! I know not that you have a god other than me.) This was the view of Ibn Jarir. (And he and his armies were arrogant in the land, without right, and they thought that they would never return to Us.) means, they were arrogant oppressors who spread much mischief in the land, and they believed that there would be no Resurrection. (So, your Lord poured on them different kinds of severe torment. Verily, your Lord is Ever Watchful (over them).) (89:13-14). Allah says here:
(So, We seized him and his armies, and We threw them all into the sea.) meaning, `We drowned them in the sea in a single morning, and not one of them was left.' (So, behold what was the end of the wrongdoers. And We made them leaders inviting to the Fire) for those who followed them and took the same path as they did, rejecting the Messengers and denying the Creator. (and on the Day of Resurrection, they will not be helped.) their humiliation in this world is combined with and connected to their humiliation in the Hereafter, as Allah says:
(We have destroyed them. And there was none to help them) (47:13). (And We made a curse to follow them in this world,) Allah decreed that they and their king Fir`awn should be cursed by the believers among His servants who follow His Messengers, just as in this world they were cursed by the Prophets and their followers, (and on the Day of Resurrection, they will be among disgraced.) Qatadah said, "This Ayah is like the Ayah, (They were pursued by a curse in this (life) and on the Day of Resurrection. Evil indeed is the gift given.) (11:99).''
(43. And indeed We gave Musa -- after We had destroyed the generations of old -- the Scripture as an enlightenment for mankind, and a guidance and a mercy, that they might remember.)
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Nezan (m)
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Nezan, you are a very dishonest soul. What I wrote is more than what you mentioned for me. I indicated that crucifixion is more than a cross death, but included ordinary stake! Read my statement, again, below: Your trying to explain the crucifixion process does not explain why the koran goofed by claiming it was carried out by pharoah to punish people while in reality, it was invented centuries later by the Romans. Point been made here is the contradiction in the koran which invented crucifixion before it was invented! no need trying to drift our argument away from the contradictions in the koran. Even you today, you are a polytheist! You have a big God; Father and smaller gods; Jesus is one that you use his name to appease or appeal to the big God as follows in your prayer "in jesus name, " No? When push really comes to shove you say the big god is really your God, because he created everything, and the small God, Jesus did not come to existence until "lets there be light as a word of Big God"! Stop running away from the topic, remember we are discussing contradictions in the koran, dont think you will save face by derailing the OP. Question is, koran refered to egyptians as polytheists, and then in the same breathe, refered to pharoah as egypt's god . . contradiction of the highest order! |
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Nezan (m)
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Now, none of the gods of egypt can animated, alive like human, except the priests act on their figurine behaves. Hence Pharaoh in his arrogance, as I have said made himself also god, now more than a king so that he can suppress his people's ability to free themselves and emancipate themselves into the truth of Musa (AS). You cant deny the truth, by now. This does not explain why the koran referred to egyptians as polytheists and monotheists (pharoah as only god)! Please explain the contradiction. When Jesus was reported to have preached the Gospel, was it already written down by the writers, then, while Jesus was still here, what was meant by "preach the Gospel" relative to Jesus preaching among his people? I thought Jesus left before they wrote it down, so how did he preach what was not revealed to him, but was a collection of his preaching, life works, etc by people left behind? This does not explain why the koran was comparing the New Testament(written by followers of Jesus) to koran(written by mohammed). In order words, mohammed claim to receive a revelation which he wrote down in a book, and thought the New Testament was also written down by Jesus. |
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olabowale (m)
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« #86 on: Today at 10:49:57 AM » contradiction 11:
Till, when he [the traveller Zul-qarnain] reached
the setting-place of the sun,
he found it going down into a muddy spring, ,
-- Sura Sura 18:86
Till, when he reached the rising-place of the sun,
he found it rising on a people
for whom We had appointed no shelter from it.
-- Sura Sura 18:90
First: It is scientifically proven that the sun does not go down in a muddy spring. Thats not a smart analysis of the verse. With wisdom you will realise that muddy is equal to murky (not clear, cant see through it). A spring is water body, and by Allah when the light is weak, as it is the time of sunset, you cant see the water bottom anymore or clearly because the surface is now murky or muddy looking. Second: This seems to presuppose a flat earth, otherwise how can there be an extreme point in the West or in the East? It does not say, he went as far as possible on land in these directions and then observed the sun-rise or sun-set while standing at this shore. A sunrise there would be basically just the same as at any other place on this earth, at land or sea. It would still look as if it is setting "far away". It does say, that he reached THE PLACE where the sun sets and in his second journey the place where it rises. Are there directings of rising and setting of the sun? Yes and to each of us, it is the east and west respectively, since the earth rotates in a perticular direction, showing our eastern part first and the west later. And visually, we see that the sun rises and sets, as the earth rotates, though we do not feel its rotation! There is no indication of a flat earth but a vanishing earth land based on our visual perception, as you stand and look with your limited capability of sight. We see a curvature on earth, even within a isual distance of 500 yards, so for you to assume that the Quran is talking of flat earth is absurd, except that it is a continuous earth, agreed between land and water, that is! And when it is stated that it reached a place where the sun sets, it simply means a place at the time of SUNSET. It is even time and sun was setting on the water surface, which he saw an MURKY, unclear, unlike the surface look at say 12.00 pm on a clear, no cloudy but sunny afternoon. Try to see Niger River at the time of unset and compare it to its clear look at midday in July! Furthermore: Yusuf Ali in his commentary reports that Zul-qarnain is thought to be Alexander the Great. And so does the "Concise Dictionary of Islam." Looking at verses 98-101, this would make Alexander the Great a Muslim -- 1000 years before Muhammad. Yet that is for sure not true. The history does not relate that Alexander the Great had any other religion than the pagan Greeks he came from and ruled over. This is historically blatantly false. The story which is read in Surah kahf speaks about a powerful person with all the means to help or accomplish a mission, with authority reaching very far and wide, who helped a people to be secured away from an evil race. This must be something of the past, long before Muhammad (AS), a story told by him, in revelation from his Creator, the Author of the Quran. Now Islam of Adam must be crude and almost not resemble the Islam of Ibrahim and that of Ibrahim must not as refined and structured as that of Muhammad! But each has a purity of worship in obedience to Allah, alone, the yardstick of Islam. Now, tell me where in the Quran in Arabic that you found Alexander, except Dhul Qarnain? Muhammad (AS) never gave a name of Alexander. |
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