Human Free Will vrs God's All-Knowing Nature

Yes it does. If not, free will is only an illusion and everything is predetermined.

My guess if that the notion of God giving humans free will came from the problem of evil. It is impossible to explain evil in this world if God is both omnipotent and omnibenevolent. But then again, this creates more problems than it solves.

In light of the self-contradictory nature of this God, the best to do is to get rid of the concept altogether as it has only explanatory power for the gullible that can brush aside these contradictions

That he exists at all.

The evidence only exists if you start from the belief that God exists and that the Bible is his word. If you do not start from that assumptions, the evidence is no longer there.

Actually, evolutionary theorist do not touch the existence of God at all. Evolution has nothing to do with the concept of God. The Theory of Evolution starts after the first life forms were there. It does not touch on the beginning of life or on the orgin of the universe. The theory only explains the diversity of life we encounter on earth today and in the past.

And why would that be a cop out? In view of the evidence, it is the most logical conclusion.

A supreme being implies that it exists to start with. This just  pushes the question a little further without actually solving anything. It only brings redundancy. Who created the creator?
The universe does not evolve. Only living organisms evolve. You're mixing up two different things.

On that we agree then.

Why does saying 'I don't know' take as much faith as saying 'a supreme being clicked it all into place'. The first statement does not have any implicit assumptions, the second statement assumed a causal relationship between a supreme being and the universe as it is. If you add assumptions to a statement, you need either evidence or faith in these assumptions. As there is no evidence, you need faith.
In conclusion: the first statement does not require faith, the second statement requires faith. Faith in the existence of a supreme being and faith in the supreme being causing the universe.

I do not need evidence. I do not profess a belief in anything. I am an agnostic atheist, meaning that I lack the belief in a supreme being and that I cannot have knowledge of the the existence of a supreme being on a metaphysical level. I can clearly say though that the specific God of the monotheistic religions does not exist, because that God is logically impossible.

The Theory of Evolution does not deal with how life started, that is the field of inquiry of abiogenis. Evolution explains the mechanisms by which simpler life forms evolved over to to reach our current biodiversity. Maybe you should read a bit on evolution before you misrepresent it's content.
http://evolution.Berkeley.edu/ is an excellent starter.

I do not drop anything. I do not posses it to start with. The God concept only introduces more questions than it solves. Every time someone tries to explain the God concept, they come up with self-contradictory nonsense. Why would I need such a concept?

This high-powered debate will be moved to it's own thread in due course!  Keep on firing!

So you don't know for sure how the one basic cell which become the building block of life (by whatever means) came to be. You are however happy to accept that somehow it did.
That takes faith.  Maybe you believe if you research it thoroughly enough you would find evidence which is convincing enough. Until that day, you must be comfortable in your belief that it is not about a supreme being because there has got to be more evidence that it happened spontaneously.  I don,t think there is.


I will. Meanwhile how do you think a scientific study becomes a study? It starts with postulates and hypothesis by curious mortals like you and I.  They trace backward from what is available evidence (in this case)of life, making deductions as they proceed. In this day and age with technology for radiocarbon dating etc, one can reasonably believe that scientists can tell to a reasonable certainty how old fossils they dig up are.  Bones of dead creature from time immemorial, comparisons with currently living creatures to find differences which they may attribute to evolution or whatever.

My main concern: how likely is it that they find evidence of how the world originated for sure. You don't know my friend, because nobody can for sure! Zoology and botany teaches us that all creatures are grouped into kingoms, phylums, genus and species. They group similar behaving and looking creators together.  So apes and humans have very similar characteristics. They are still totally difference creatures. What are the odds that fossils found dating eons of years ago of apes might look similar to humans? Well don't have to go back in time to know that they would. They do now! Especially if all you are going by are bones and teeth.

How likely is it that they find the initial building block or one close enough to it for an accurate conclusion? They are all deductions my friend and in the end all the fluffing about says, is that it started somehow and proceeded thus. Was it initially a vacuum? Science tells us: ain't nothing going to happen in a vacuum matey!


Need I say more?

I get that you believe in evolution and that Abiogenesis is the study that proves how life originated which you don't know too much about. My problem is that until I can believe how life actually started by whatever study there is, evolution is no use to me in deciding how the world can to be. That area of science is not at tangible or provable if you like as quantum Physics. It involves too much speculation and conjecture and there are bit of faith.

PS my remark about 'inspired by Darwin was meant to be a joke. (Bible being inspired by God and all that.)

Quite an interesting debate. First for us to able to accurately determine whether God gave man "Freewill" we have to determine two things. Firstly, we have to determine whether there is a God and secondly whether this God created man and by extension, whether he has to ability to bequeath anything at all on man let alone free will. @Shredbaron you contend and I quote, that
Brings me back to my first question: IS there a God? If there is, what is the evidence that he created a garden and put man into it? Where was the geographical location of the garden of eden? What evidence exists that such a garden existed? The Bible in Genesis Chapter 3: 11. says and I quote Genesis Chapter 3: 14 Genesis Chapter 3: 21 (All scripture quoted here is for reference purposes and serves only the purposes of this debate and are taken from the Everyday study edition of the bible).

This does not seem to me like a god who knew before hand that the serpant will tempt the woman who will in turn convince her husband to eat of the fruit let alone one who had foreknowledge that man will fall to that temptation.

On the other part, you do not command somebody who has free will. You ask the person. For instance, if I want my colleague at work to get me a cup of coffee, I ask him and quite nicely. I will say to him knowing that he could refuse "Fred, could you please get me a cup of coffee?" To which he can either say yes or no. That, is someone with free will. But when I want to ask my househelp to do just the same thing for me I will tell her in no uncertain terms infact, I will command her to "go bring me a cup of coffee". Now that doesn't seem like free will. Free comes "without liens or encumberances" without fear of reprisals or sanctions. Now if my house help refuses to give me my coffee, I might decide to cut down her salary but in the case of my colleague, if he refuses, I will take it in stride and look for alternatives. Now, if God gave Adam free will to decide what he wants to do as and at when he wants to there will be no liens attached to it. Am I making sense?

It seems to me, that God does not have free will to give and as such could not have given it. There are several logical examples that can be given regarding this issue. If it was his to give, he would have given it to Adam, his first human creation.

thank you for taking this back to the original question of how predestination and freewill can co-exsit.

I'm excited about replying to this... I actually vaguely understand it because God lots of time gives me wisdom.... So, How can predestination and freewill co-exist?

Simply because God created us.

Let me explain more. If i were to write a fictional story. So i created all the characters. I created and gave them their personality, how they think, feel, discover new things, their reactions, everything about them. Let's say that i had the power to give them souls and freewill, and i did. Now, I understand the characters so completely that i understand, i know how they will act in every single imaginable situation. I do not tell them to do it. I simply understand that they will.

This is God. He created us, he gave us everything, our personalities, how we think, feel, discover new things, everything. God understands us so completely that in every single situation, he knows how each individual soul he created would act.He, in no way, forces us to do them God simply understands us so well, that he knows what we will do . God knew, for instance, that if Chinua Achebe existed when he did, he would write the book "Things Fall Apart" and God knew, that if he wrote that book, eventually, my school would have it a requirement to read it. And God knew, that i would be in a class that had to read it, and that i would have to research about Nigeria to complete my school project.  God knew that i would type in, "Nigeria culture-religion" in google, click on a site that led me to this current one. and  God knew that it would inveterate me so much, that i would have to get an account and post my opinions. Now, I'm not saying that the reason God put Chinua Achebe on the earth at the time he did, was so i could post this. But you never know, only God knows.

This is how freewill and predestination can co-exist. God understands how we will act, so he puts us in certain places in certain times with certain people, because he knows how we will act. And he knows that the result of our life in this particular place/time/etc... will benefit his Kingdom, and his glory the most.

and yes, i know that after reading that you may ask, why God would create people who he know will end up going to Hell, and i will try to answer that the best i can, right now, so we don't have to go and create another thread that will get us nowhere  .

No one can truly answer why God created people who would go to Hell. All you know, is that God is always just, but he is also merciful, all-knowing and loves us so much that he gave us Jesus, and above all, God is always right. So you must say that if it is true that God is just, merciful, all-knowing, loving, right, and it is also true that he created people who he knows will go to Hell, you must eventually conclued that either God has a reason, and that reason is just, merciful, loving, right, and good for us in the long term (all-knowing, God knows the future) or you must conclude that you yourself, as a human, with the limited knowledge capacity of a human, is right, and a God that is just, merciful, all-knowing, loving and always right, is wrong.

Hope that clears that up. 

How is free will an illusion in this context? in this context God knows/understands what we will do. but he doesn't command us to do this. he allows us to do it.

When you say "There is no way to avoid your faith." what are you saying? Sorry, but i really don't understand.


Yes, actually many people do question the properties of God. An acquaintance questioning exactly why God creates people who he knows will go to Hell, is what got me started thinking about how free will and predestination can co-exist. Why shouldn't we question the properties of God? That would be like not trying to fully understand your personal beliefs. and that would be ignorant, because not understanding what you believe. makes no sense. That's actually one reason why this site invigorates me so much. i love it, because it allows me to question my own beliefs, to strengthen them, and learn more about others beliefs.

I do not retreat into ignorance by saying we cannot fully understand the nature of God. I simply come to the conclusion that our knowledge  cannot compare to an all-knowing God's!


1. How does omniscience imply predestination? Doesn't it imply that he knows everything, understands everything? Which doesn't mean that he forces us to do anything. It simply means that he knows everything! If that is all it means, i can't see why he wouldn't allow people to choose what they want to do.
2. Why wouldn't he allow sin on Earth? He doesn't allow it in Heaven and that is why after we all sin, we need to receive Jesus Christ so, we can be perfect before God, so we can go to Heaven. But on earth... Earth is not Heaven, so why is there a reason he wouldn't allow sin on Earth? He allows sin in Hell.
3. How do you know that would limit his possibilities? From your knowledge and your perception, maybe it would. but, if he is all-knowing, maybe he knows that it wouldn't limit his possibilities. maybe it would create more. If it did limit his possibilities... he might not want those possibilities.

Oh, and nferyn, i would just like to say, that i am so glad you participate in the discusions, you always bring such... intensity to them! It is so fun talking with you, (and everyone here too).

 I love hearing everyone's ideas and opinions. How they differentiate so much. I am so thankful, that we can express our opinions freely and openly without fear of being... harassed or even murdered like people can be.

How is THAT and illusion? I am not grasping your argument on this, and i don't know why.

Because i agree with you completely, as  you said it, you "only do what he knows you will do." But even you are not saying that you do what he chooses for you to do. 

He only knows what you will do. and that does not create an illusion of freewill. it simply says that you choose what you do, God just understands your soul, who you are, so completely that he knows what it is you will end up choosing.



When you were born, as a child. You did not understand anything around you. As you grow older, you learn things, but still, there is so so much you don't understand, when you are an adult. you know many things, and yet there's alot you still don't understand. When you die. there are so many things you never got the chance to learn or understand. All our lives, we learn and learn and learn and learn. People discover new things every day that have never been discovered before. Knowledge seems to be unlimited so we will never be able to know it all.

and yet simply because we don't understand why someone who is omniscient does something, you say it is impossible. that it's contradictory. But he knows everything. Do you not understand that? He. Knows. Everything. and we do not. So why is that impossible? Why is that contradictory?


Why do we believe in wind? We can't prove it exists, except that we can feel it, and it moves things. Other than that, we can't prove it exists, we just have to put faith in the fact that we can feel it.

Why do i believe in God? I cannot prove God exists, except that i can feel God, inside my heart, and God i can see God changing people. i just have to put faith in the fact that i feel God everyday in my life. and i have to put faith in the fact that i can see God change people.

If someone never left their house, and didn't have a TV. but someone called them on their phone and was telling them about the wind. They might not believe it existed.  They might say, no matter how many people can testify that it exists, unless you can give me solid proof, i won't believe in it. Until they feel wind for themself, or see the proof, they will not believe in it. But we have no proof for wind, except that we can feel it, and see it move things.

Someone who has never felt or seen how God works in someone probably won't believe in God. Unless they see proof, or feel God themselves.

I actually must tell you, that it is truly obvious to me, that God wants you, right now. I mean, you are on here every single day, debating the existence of him, who he is, the affects of him etc... You have already taken the first step into discovering who he is. Although you are not convinced of who God is, who Jesus is, let alone God's existence, you are at least have not closed your heart completely to the possibility of him. There are so many people who would have seen one of these discussions, left the website and never come back. I almost think that you might.... want to be proved wrong? i don't know about that, but i can say that just by listening to and reading all this, you have allowed God in your life, it is truly now your choice on whether you listen to it.


You are absolutely correct, it is uncalled for because it is nonsense. We all are evil, and evil moral characteristics come from Christians just as much, and probably as often as any one else... to say that they Started from? that their origins are from atheists? Well... that makes no sense in the least.



How is THAT and illusion? I am not grasping your argument on this, and i don't know why.

 Because i agree with you completely, as  you said it, you "only do what he knows you will do." But even you are not saying that you do what he chooses for you to do. 

He only knows what you will do. and that does not create an illusion of freewill. it simply says that you choose what you do, God just understands your soul, who you are, so completely that he knows what it is you will end up choosing.



When you were born, as a child. You did not understand anything around you. As you grow older, you learn things, but still, there is so so much you don't understand, when you are an adult. you know many things, and yet there's alot you still don't understand. When you die. there are so many things you never got the chance to learn or understand. All our lives, we learn and learn and learn and learn. People discover new things every day that have never been discovered before. Knowledge seems to be unlimited so we will never be able to know it all.

and yet simply because we don't understand why someone who is omniscient does something, you say it is impossible. that it's contradictory. But he knows everything. Do you not understand that? He. Knows. Everything. and we do not. So why is that impossible? Why is that contradictory?


Why do we believe in wind? We can't prove it exists, except that we can feel it, and it moves things. Other than that, we can't prove it exists, we just have to put faith in the fact that we can feel it.

Why do i believe in God? I cannot prove God exists, except that i can feel God, inside my heart, and God i can see God changing people. i just have to put faith in the fact that i feel God everyday in my life. and i have to put faith in the fact that i can see God change people.

If someone never left their house, and didn't have a TV. but someone called them on their phone and was telling them about the wind. They might not believe it existed.  They might say, no matter how many people can testify that it exists, unless you can give me solid proof, i won't believe in it. Until they feel wind for themself, or see the proof, they will not believe in it. But we have no proof for wind, except that we can feel it, and see it move things.

Someone who has never felt or seen how God works in someone probably won't believe in God. Unless they see proof, or feel God themselves.

I actually must tell you, that it is truly obvious to me, that God wants you, right now. I mean, you are on here every single day, debating the existence of him, who he is, the affects of him etc... You have already taken the first step into discovering who he is. Although you are not convinced of who God is, who Jesus is, let alone God's existence, you are at least have not closed your heart completely to the possibility of him. There are so many people who would have seen one of these discussions, left the website and never come back. I almost think that you might.... want to be proved wrong? i don't know about that, but i can say that just by listening to and reading all this, you have allowed God in your life, it is truly now your choice on whether you listen to it.


I completely concur with you on this. It is nonsense to think that evil moral characteristics started from, or origin from atheists, because it origin from all of us, Christians included. Unless you are using the definition of assigning as a quality or characteristic when you said the word ascribe... because in that case it's true, but it's not only a quality of atheists, Evil is a quality of all humans from the first time we sin. But in either use of the word 'ascribe', i still agree with you that it is very uncalled for to ascribe all kinds of evil moral characteristics to atheists.



I actually must confess that i, myself, am not Nigerian, nor do i live in Nigeria. i was researching about Nigerian culture for my English Final when i found this website. (We are reading the book, "Things Fall Apart" ) So, i was not aware that it is difficult for Nigerians to deviate from the norm. And i agree that it is senseless to be treated as social outcasts for a position on any subject, because... ha! It's Senseless because we Have. Free Will!!!!!!! to choose to have any position on any subject we want!


By interesting, do you mean that he and i disagree on things? Because, i am not saying that i am 100% right on this, this is just what i believe and why i believe it. infact i am probably wrong on many things, just as we all are.

Do you know of any threads that Chrisd is a prominent debater on? I love interesting discussions (exspecally on this website).... they are so exhilarating!



So i didn't agree with you on this, so i looked up the word ignorance on-line... sometimes when i have the definition of words right next to me, i understand things much better. and i guess you are right. i technically do retreat into ignorance. because my conclusion is that i am not educated enough to understand the nature of God.

but this is true. I can't understand the nature of God. I haven't even come close to learning all the possible things you could learn Inside! the realm of human knowledge... let alone in the realm of God's Knowledge. and neither can anyone who is only human either.

this was originally referring to the comment you had made on when i preparing to say why God would create people who he could predict with 100% accuracy, would go to hell. and so yes, i am retreating into ignorance when i say that i can't understand the nature of God, that you can't understand it, that no one can understand it. But i only retreat into that ignorance, because I, along with everyother human being, am ignorant. I am only stating the truth.



I'm sorry, but i see absolutely no facts in that except for that people suffer. The rest is purely opinion. It is your opinion that God being omnibenevolent would not allow his creatures to go through torment and pain. That is not a fact. Nor is that if God is omnipotent, he would prevent suffering and pain. They are both very eloquently said opinions, to the point that at first glance, you do not recognize that it actually is an opinion.

Yes, it is my, 'opinion' that God can be both omnibenevolent and omnipotent, and allow people to suffer. i do not have facts.

this is because we are both ignorant. We both do not understand enough, we both do not know everything. We only know that God is omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and also omniscience! God says that he gives free will, being omnibenevolent, it must be true. So the fact that he is omniscience doesn't change that.



I actually would like to create a thread on that... however i have never created a thread before... what would i call it? Like "Does Creating humans limit God's future possibilities" ? is that a good title??? or is there a better phrased question that you can think of?


Also, i would like to ask you a question.... that's off topic. As i mentioned before, I'm researching Nigerian culture because my English class is reading the book "Things Fall Apart" written by Chinua Achebe. In it they mention that when twins are born they murder them. Do you know why? Also, in the book, they talk about the titles of each clan. Do you know, by any chance, how they Acquire the titles? If you by any chance know the answer to these questions, i would greatly appreciate it. =)
 
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Evolution is a Fact and a Theory

The existence of biological evolution is a fact. It can be demonstrated today and the historical evidence for its occurrence in the past is overwhelming. On the other hand there are questions about the mechanism of the observed changes... how did evolution occur? We readily admit that we are less certain of the exact mechanism of evolution; there are several theories of the mechanism of evolution.
-- "Theory" means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory is false.
-- Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them.
-- Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.
-- Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty". The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world.
-- In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.
-- Scientists  have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.
But what is established beyond reasonable doubt, and what needs further study, about evolution.
1) Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth can be doubted only by those who are ignorant or resistant of the evidence. By contrast, the mechanisms that bring evolution about certainly need study and clarification.
Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution.
One has to state clearly that evolution is a fact, not theory, and that what is at issue within biology are questions of details of the process and the relative importance of different mechanisms of evolution.
The facts
1)It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old.
2)It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old.
3)It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago.
4)It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now.
5)It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different.
No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun.

We also need to distinguish between facts that are easy to demonstrate and those that are more circumstantial. Examples of evolution that are readily apparent include the fact that modern populations are evolving and the fact that two closely related species share a common ancestor. The evidence that Homo sapiens and chimpanzees share a recent common ancestor falls into this category. There is so much evidence in support of this aspect of primate evolution that it qualifies as a fact by any common definition of the word "fact."
In other cases the available evidence is less strong. For example, the relationships of some of the major phyla are still being worked out. Also, the statement that all organisms have descended from a single common ancestor is strongly supported by the available evidence, and there is no opposing evidence. However, it is not yet appropriate to call this a "fact" since there are reasonable alternatives.

So enormous, ramifying, and consistent has the evidence for evolution become that if anyone could now disprove it, I should have my conception of the orderliness of the universe so shaken as to lead me to doubt even my own existence. If you like, then, I will grant you that in an absolute sense evolution is not a fact, or rather, that it is no more a fact than that you are hearing or reading these words.

Evolution is useless, without practical application.

* Diseases and pests evolve resistance to the drugs and pesticides we use against them. Evolutionary theory is used in the field of resistance management in both medicine and agriculture (Bull and Wichman 2001).
* Evolutionary theory is used to manage fisheries for greater yields (Conover and Munch 2002).
* Knowledge of the evolution of parasite virulence in human populations can help guide public health policy (Galvani 2003).