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nicetohave (m)
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There is nothing like free will, if there happened to be any, it was taken away the day God gave the command for Adam and Eve not eat a particular fruit.
I don't see how their free will was taken away, afterall they eventually ate the fruit afterall..............free will is the ability to chose and act on your choice, at the same time bearing the brunt of the consequences; what you want to refer to as free will is to act in a certain way and yet be free of its damnable consequences, yes we all have our free will, to make up your own mind............to serve him or not, to believe him or not, that removes the concept of fate, removes the concept of destiny but does not remove the concept of predestination because that is the premise upon which your free will hinges, accept it or not, and face the consequences, life or death, thereafter; if God is omnipotent, omniscience, omnibenevolent, that is not for me to defend anymore because i have made my mind known on that earlier on, we waste precious time sometimes, i think!!! |
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Logical (m)
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@ nferyn, Thank you. Great that you ask. Before I proceed I would like to quote the Quraan :- [Truly, God does not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves] (Surat Ar-Ra`d 13:11). And then back to your question, which I am going to explain with logics to ease understanding. Isn't Allah omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent? If so, then there is still no free will.
Can you clarify?
Yes he is. But let me ask you a simple question, When you have a knowledge of something before hand, such as for example, simple arithmetic 1 + 1 = 2, is there any possibilities that, 1 + 1 = 2 all the time? Nope. Apply the law of logic combination that is binary theorem, 1 + 1 is not equal to 2. Infact 1 + 1 = 10 . Now why is the answer different? Because the law that governs the addition in this case is different, What makes it so? your decision of using not the normal arithmetic addition rule, but applying the binary addition. Now don't you have the knowledge that 1 + 1 = 2 and also 1 + 1 = 10 . I suppose so. Well its due to the choice of laws. Both based on that choice you can predetermine the effects of the choice? can't you? I guess so  Humans have free will, they have the ability to choose, and based on whatever they choose, God is All knowing to the effects of that choice . In Islam Destiny is defined, measured, as clearly stated in the Quran. I hope I have answered your question. |
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goodguy (m)
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Impressive!  |
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nicetohave (m)
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@ nferyn, Thank you. Great that you ask. Before I proceed I would like to quote the Quraan :- [Truly, God does not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves] (Surat Ar-Ra`d 13:11). And then back to your question, which I am going to explain with logics to ease understanding. Yes he is. But let me ask you a simple question, When you have a knowledge of something before hand, such as for example, simple arithmetic 1 + 1 = 2, is there any possibilities that, 1 + 1 = 2 all the time? Nope. Apply the law of logic combination that is binary theorem, 1 + 1 is not equal to 2. Infact 1 + 1 = 10 . Now why is the answer different? Because the law that governs the addition in this case is different, What makes it so? your decision of using not the normal arithmetic addition rule, but applying the binary addition. Now don't you have the knowledge that 1 + 1 = 2 and also 1 + 1 = 10 . I suppose so. Well its due to the choice of laws. Both based on that choice you can predetermine the effects of the choice? can't you? I guess so Humans have free will, they have the ability to choose, and based on whatever they choose, God is All knowing to the effects of that choice . In Islam Destiny is defined, measured, as clearly stated in the Quran. I hope I have answered your question. Logical, even though we are kepela meaning on opposite sides of the river, i must admit that your words are not only logical but good. |
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nferyn (m)
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@ Logical
So in Islam, Allah is not omniscient, which makes him different from the Judeo-Christain God. He knows all possible outcomes of the actions people can take, but he does not know which actions they will take, as he leaves to choice to them.
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Logical (m)
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@Nferyn
Om·nis·cient
a.
[Omni- + L. sciens, -entis, p. pr. of scire to know: cf. F. omniscient. See Science.]
Having universal knowledge; knowing all things; infinitely knowing or wise; as, the omniscient God. -- Om·nis·cient·ly, adv.
Having universal knowledge. Yes Allah does have universal knowledge, but the choice of mankind is not knowledge. It is the choice of which he makes, the effects of the choice is knowledge. My apologise, but I think you don't see what I am trying to explain.
I don't want to confuse you, I think I have tried my best in trying to explain the difference between knowledge and choice made by factors that surrounds the knowledge. its logical. I think.
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nicetohave (m)
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To nferyn it is not, and it wont................until he realises there is a God in the first instance, then other things shall be clearer to him
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nferyn (m)
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@ logical
Universal Knowledge implies knowledge of the future
Knowledge of the future implies predestination
Predestination contradicts free will
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nicetohave (m)
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Predestination does not contradict free will but makes room for it
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nferyn (m)
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Predestination does not contradict free will but makes room for it
In which logical system does that apply? The informal anti-logical logical system  |
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nicetohave (m)
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I have explained to you before and inputs from logical have put it into a broader perspective, and i repeat again not because i hope you will see it now but later perhaps and for the benefit of others that, Freewill is encoded in predestination, what God wants you to be is one and what he wants you to be is never in isolation from the entirety of his creation, the entire universe, what he wants you to be is in one way or another interconnected with the big picture, just as i have said that Jesus was predestined to die for our sins yet if he had declined in the graden of gethsemane man would still have been redeeemed, how? i don't know but we will----now his free will was subject to predestination but was not taken away from him...........God told cain if he had done right he would have been accepted, but God knew with sin lying at the door of cain knew what he was about to do, but was his free will to stop from butchering his brother taken from him? NO, free will is given to us to use in accordance to the will of God, or predestination, we can go on and on...................does it get any simpler than this?
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Logical (m)
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@nferyn, If you had debated towards arguing based on theory of logic then I wouldnt say much. Its a pity that you don't want to see beyound what you have made yourself to believe, nor do you want to open room for accomodating new knowledge based on basic reasoning and adjustment. You claim you are open but in reality, you are closed. I don't expect you to accept, but what i expect from you is logical reasoning and debating based of facts and what is laid down already. Not what you have made yourself to believe. To end my debate on this topic, I would like to quote a basic logical rule for you to digest. p->q q->r deduction:: p->r Which means p implies q and q implies r therefore p literally implies r. The deduction is assumed but does not exist, but its logical, so is free will. 1 + 1 = 1 arithmetic law 1 + 1 = 10 binary law Therefore 1 + 1 can either be 1 or 10, depending on what law we choose to apply. The choice of the law does not question our already knowledge because we already have that knowledge. So is freedom of free will. I just hope this is not too much for your brain  . Have a nice day. |
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dejiolowe (m)
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There is nothing like free will? Man, u must be funny. That God said they shouldn't eat a particular fruit doesn't mean there is no free will. If you are told not to drink while driving, you still have the free will do do it and the free will to die when u do it.
God can drag us to him if he wants to but he's powerful to resist the temptation. He wants us to desire him of our free will. That is the power Obasanjo doesn't have. He can't leave power alone.
And if u must strive to understand God. At least understand enough to do his will that will get u to heaven else u will join people like Ka in hell.
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nferyn (m)
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@nferyn,
If you had debated towards arguing based on theory of logic then I wouldnt say much. Its a pity that you don't want to see beyound what you have made yourself to believe, nor do you want to open room for accomodating new knowledge based on basic reasoning and adjustment.
Well, Sir, do try. It's obvious from your explanation that Islam explains the natural world within the confines of what is possible and that explanation does make sense. The same does not go for Christianity or Judaism. It does remain an unnecassary layer of abstraction though if you are trying to talk about the problem of predestination and free will. You claim you are open but in reality, you are closed. I don't expect you to accept, but what i expect from you is logical reasoning and debating based of facts and what is laid down already. Not what you have made yourself to believe.
Explain to me the errors I've made here. You are just asserting. To end my debate on this topic, I would like to quote a basic logical rule for you to digest.
p->q
q->r
deduction:: p->r
Which means p implies q and q implies r therefore p literally implies r. The deduction is assumed but does not exist, but its logical, so is free will.
Thank you for repeating something from my freshman year in University. What is the relevance if I may ask. The deduction is assumed but does not exist, but its logical, so is free will.
You certainly have not made the case for the second, or are you saying that free will does not exist? (pardon me here, I may have misunderstood, English is not my mother tongue) 1 + 1 = 1 arithmetic law
1 + 1 = 10 binary law
Therefore 1 + 1 can either be 1 or 10, depending on what law we choose to apply. The choice of the law does not question our already knowledge because we already have that knowledge. So is freedom of free will.
That would be 2. I'm not really familiar with your binary notations, but I understand what you are saying here. The existence of choice of law is in contradiction with predestination and onminscience. What were you trying to say again? I just hope this is not too much for your brain . Have a nice day. You assume too much, Sir |
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Adetola (m)
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There is a very clear-cut distinction between fate and destiny. It's just that people find it difficult to understand. Your destiny is in God's hands and your fate is in your hands. Your dsetiny has been pre-detremined by God. Fate is the route you take there and what happens afterwards as a result of your actions. Let me bring forward premises to back my argument.
1. Mr Jack has been destined to be rich - Destiny
2. He worked hard for his riches and dies honourably- Fate 1, or
3. He opted for rituals (blood money) to get rich and dies mysteriously - Fate 2, or
4. He opted for dirty business ranging from stealing to 419ing and was sentenced to death by hanging - Fate 3.
From the above premises, it will be noted that God's pre-determined will for him is to be rich which is his destiny( premise 1). It is now left for him to decide which route to take to his richies which brings him fate (premises 2,3, or 4). The aftermath (consequences) of the route to his richies is also his fate. It is his fate because he diecided that for himself. What God does is choose a destiny for you which is to be rich, its now left for you to choose your way to riches and that is your fate.
In a nutshell, nferyn understands this better than I do and he has explained it in a simplistic way.
What God has pre0-determined for you is your destiny
The results of your own action - positive or negative - is your fate.
Nobody can change or influence destiny, you can infleunce your fate by your actions.
I rest my argument.
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layi (m)
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fate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ft) n. ...The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events. ...The inevitable events predestined by this force. ...A final result or consequence; an outcome. ...Unfavorable destiny; doom. Your dsetiny has been pre-detremined by God. Fate is the route you take there and what happens afterwards as a result of your actions
From the definition above, it's obvious fate is an outcome...not a route to an outcome. Fate is bad Destiny. Your explanation of the difference between fate and destiny pictures GOD as a confused one and thus I strongly disagree. Why would GOD destine you to be rich without a definite route to make that riches? Why the vacumm in destiny (between the time u were born and the time u became rich)? |
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axeprince (m)
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@ Logica, It won't be logical to say that both Christianity and Islam holds same view when it comes to Fate.
Both of my arguments above would not need any refference were you to be a Christian., and neither would I pretend to have any Idea of what the Holy Quran is saying, despite sleeping and waking up with a copy(My Ma is a Muslim).
And since most of us agreed that the ways of the gods and God is not the way of we human beings, then we can also agree that there is nothing Logical in the Spiritual realms relating to us human beings because our ways are not the same.
I won't argue with an Indian now on Fate because they too have their funny views on it(I used to have an Indian girlfriend).
All the same, like I concluded in my ealier posting....let's just keep doing good, no matter what, all have it's reward..more like kama.
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axeprince (m)
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...throw a coin, it will always land with a side, so no matter what you do or believe, just remember that there is ALWAYS a REWARD
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Logical (m)
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Fate: A final result or consequence; an outcome.
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Oracle (m)
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FATE IS:.destiny: an event (or a course of events) that will inevitably happen in the future
.fortune: your overall circumstances or condition in life (including everything that happens to you); "whatever my fortune may be"; "deserved a better fate"; "has a happy lot"; "the luck of the Irish"; "a victim of circumstances"; "success that was her portion"
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spikedcylinder (f)
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@ goodguy...it doesnt mean i don't believe in God.I think different people have their different ways of believing in God.If we all believed in God the same way,religion wont be so damn confusing! |
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lifexpress (m)
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Destiny or fate brings us into this life, the conditions and circumstances, freewill takes us out the way we choose to use it, or not to use it at all. Such as being unable to learn and apply better judgement and discrimination to improve your life! Sickness is one example of how we choose to use freewill to hurt ourselves or others close to us in family or business. There is destiny, but as princes and princesses of God, we each have the right to re-write this destiny through over-coming the issues of anger, greed, lust, attachment to material possessions and vanity. This means, living this life as children of God - a life of love, service and self-responsibility. There is more, if you choose; visit www.eckankar.org |
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naijababe (f)
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@ logical it's all good giving us ur supposed islamic take on destiny but i totally disagree with you. Destiny or fate is one of the articles of faith i.e not believing in one nullifies ur faith. Destiny or fate in islam mean qadeer meaning ur life is already decided and whatever happens Allah has already ordained hence the quote "All things good or bad are from Allah".
6 articles of faith if i still remember correctly are
1 faith in Allah
2 faith in the angels
3 faith in the prophets
4 faith in the last day
5 faith in the holy books
6 faith in destiny of fate whichever
Destiny in islamic is so important that there are countless ahadith on how a person's life is already predetermined from the moment he/she is still a drop of sermen about to fertilise an egg.
By the way I don't believe in destiny it's an excuse for all wrongs that should be right
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Sandscape (m)
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Before we get pretty messed up in here let me set some things straight. The Bible has never taught predestination. Free will has always been the watch-word of christianity. Take for instance the case of the isrealites. In deteronomy they were told, 'I have put life and death, blessing and malediction, in front of you, and you should choose life in order to continue living, you and your offspring'.
They had the power to choose! Even that far back God gave options. The future is never fixed for anyone. If the bible taught pre-destination, then all the tenets of christianity would be found wanting.
Why?
1. There would be nothing like true repentance
2. God will have no moral integrity to judge sinners since He destined sin on them
3. God would be seen as partial( the bible says 'God is not partial')
Let us be careful not to ascribe doctrines of popular churches as teachings of the bible. Fate, destiny, and predestination are teachings that have roots in ancient greek mythology. That some churches choose to teach them is their business. To show how ridiculous believe in fate is, Read the statement that follows: Walk across a major highway with your eyes closed. If you were not destined to die then, nothing will happen to you, but if you were, you'll die even with your eyes wide open!
Lets think with our heads, fellow Nigerians. God is not to be mocked!
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nferyn (m)
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This is the classical inconsistency of Christian doctrine: if you believe in an omniscient (all-seeing) God, then, by definition, you believe in predestination. Some protestant denominations (e.g. the Calvinists) accept that this is a consequence of believing in an omniscient God.
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lifexpress (m)
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The inconsistencies you refer exists in their dozens only in the human mind trying to understand its creator. It's like your own toy created by you trying to decipher whether you exist! A computer trying to determine if man actually exists!
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nferyn (m)
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That's an easy cop out. You can explain away anything an everything like that. This would mean that God's omniscience is different in kind than our own conception of it, making it empty of meaning. You can just as well say that God is hdfsjsdf
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lifexpress (m)
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That's one riddle 4 all to resolve! Welcome to it, now or later.
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nferyn (m)
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That's one riddle 4 all to resolve! Welcome to it, now or later.
The result of the ridle is that this makes God and his intentions totally unknowable to human beings. Not partially unknowable, but not knowable at all to any extent. Anything and everything people say about God is equqlly valid or invalid, there is no authority (be it the Bible, the Qu'ran, the Torah, tradition, a priest, a rabbi, an imam or anything) on God or his intentions. Nobody can say anything at all about God. |
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nicetohave (m)
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in your opinion then those that have something to say about him speak falsehood?
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