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Seun (m)
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I have decided to create a thread to explain why I no longer hold the religious beliefs I used to hold.
It's simple, really. I can't understand why a good God that knows all things and can do all things would allow evil to exist in his world. And I can't understand why a God that loves human beings would allow Satan to tempt them into disobeying him and then throw them into eternal torment for it. That doesn't seem fair at all and I can't believe that such a God is good in any sense.
I think the world will become a much better place if we were all atheists, because we would strive to solve all our problems instead of expecting divine intervention which never really happens. We would value human life very much because we know that once lost it cannot be replaced.
Do you have any questions, comments, respectful lectures for me?
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nferyn (m)
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Be careful, Seun, atheism does not automatically make one better or make one strive for a better world, but there would be one fundamental difference if more people were atheist, though. All our problems would become current problems. We would not have a second chance in heaven. Justice would need to be served in this life. We couldn't sit back and wait for God to punish evil people, we would have to take action in our lifetime, we couldn't be indifferent to suffering in the world justifying that indifference by saying that the poor and meek will inherit the kingdom of God.
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Chxta (m)
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Good for you Seun...
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otokx (m)
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Am afraid for you seun;
Its true that if the effort the average nigerian put into his religious activities was diverted into other productive ventures, the country will be a much better place, but that is for the present world. What about the here after.
We are told of the berean christians who studied the bible privately after listening to the sermon on sunday to find out how true the things said by the man in the pulpit.
That is what i am suggesting to all christians who are disenchanted with their current status. Develop a private prayer and bible study life.
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nferyn (m)
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Otokx, it seems obvious from Seun't testimony that his motivations are intellectual rather than social. If you hold religion against the hard cold light of reason, there will be little left but faith, i.e. belief without evidence.
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thekrafter (m)
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Otokx, it seems obvious from Seun't testimony that his motivations are intellectual rather than social. If you hold religion against the hard cold light of reason, there will be little left but faith, i.e. belief without evidence.
Nfreyn, Seun what is your motivation? I notice you guys make a LOT of posts here, trying to explain your position on several "spiritual" points. Why do you even try? Do you think some people listen? I don't know how the above paragraph came off, but I'm serious. |
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nferyn (m)
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My personal motivations for entering in these debates are threefold:
1. I like the challenge of a discussion
2. I want to help in creating an environment where Nigerian freethinkers (atheists, agnostics, liberal theists) do not have to fear expressing themselves
3. I want to educate all those people that have no knowledge of what atheism really is about it's meaning and help remove prejudices against atheism and atheists
Why? because I hold the firm belief that rationality is the only way forward for the human species.
Do I think that anybody is listening? Yes, obviously some people dismiss my contributions, but I also have meaningful conversations with others.
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Chxta (m)
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Ask your questions. There is nothing wrong in that. You don't just have to accept everything you are told...
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layi (m)
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Firstly seun, U've got to dissociate me from the naijarita issue. i never made any comment about it so i dont expect u to start a thread saying i did.
Yes i question your lack of belief in GOD but as per the naijarita issue....plz be accurate when u "report" people. I NEVER made any comment about it.
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Seun (m)
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Wow, it seems otokx is the only one who wants to ask me a question. Its true that if the effort the average Nigerian put into his religious activities was diverted into other productive ventures, the country will be a much better place, but that is for the present world. What about the hereafter? The reason why I believe that there is most likely no life after death is quite simple: there is no evidence of life before birth. Human consciousness is difficult to explain scientifically, but if I did not have any such consciousness before I was born then there is no reason to believe that I will have any such consciousness after I die. Though like any living creature would like to live as long as possible, and I am no exception, I find no reason to believe that I have any life beyond this one. And I must guard this current life very carefully because if I get myself killed due to carelessness with security or fighting in a meaningless violent revolution, that is the end for me. When people get killed for various flimsy reasons, that is the end for them too. That's why I refuse to agree that there are causes - like war or revolution - that are greater than the lives of some people. And even if there is life after death, what version are we going to believe in? Heaven/hell by faith? Which faith exactly? Heaven/hell by 'good' deeds? What exactly is a good deed? Reincarnation as animals? Very funny!  |
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gbengaijot (m)
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And this is for seun, " He who lay his hands on the plough and looks back, is not fit for the kingdom of heaven"
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otokx (m)
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I hate explaining spiritual things with physical evidences; but I do believe in the ressurection of the dead at the last day and the separation thereof into two realms after judgment. We have our alternatives while we breathe and will be responsible and accountable for making that partcular choice when we are no more. I pray that you come to the knowledge of truth before you exhale that final breadth.
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ldollier (f)
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wow, i am shocked, am so speechless i wont condemn your beliefs. but i don't encourage it either. did you even read genesis. i hope and i will pray that you change this view( on you not wanting to be a christian anymore). maybe God need to show you a sign  |
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Enigma (m)
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And this is for seun, " He who lay his hands on the plough and looks back, is not fit for the kingdom of heaven" This (quote above) is not how to encourage a person to believe or return to belief in the truth of the message of Christ. You'd do better to pray to God for the gift of faith to people who are struggling to believe. I am a Christian but I recognise that many people have difficulty (often with good reason) with believing what I believe. That is no reason to condemn them. Even Jesus Christ helped out genuine honest people struggling to believe. Remember Thomas; remember also the person who prayed to Jesus "... help my unbelief"? Better to explain why you believe what you believe and to then pray the gift of faith for people like Seun etc. |
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Ashbaby (f)
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I think some views are just views because of what happens from day to day that makes people believe (or not) in God. However, many stands people make are not researched. Today I see my neighbour going through hell, and I automatically decide that God is an unfair God and if He was really true, then He'd redeem them, period. How much do we know about God to decide whether we believe or not? This applies to believers and non-believers. Many believers follow blindly, and don't search, not just the scriptures, but also what books agree or disagree with the faith before making an educated decision about whether to believe or not. I may have been brought up in a home where everyone believed, but if that's the basis of my faith, it's bound to be very shaky ground. Then those that don't believe don't have very tangible reasons not to. Researching, understanding and also making educated decisions. We all want to be given spoon and choose to take the easiest way to any decision...that's why we would cheat on exams if that was the easiest way to pass an exam.and in this case, believe what 'seems' to be and may not be necessarily it after a few encounters with good or evil, thereby influencing our decisions. Where does my point lie? I think we should dig deeper. If we believe, don't sympathize with those that don't. It's their choice. It's your work to seek that kingdom that you believe in and get as much information about it as possible...always be ready when anyone asks you about the hope that you have. And then with what comes out of believing, shining the light, being the attraction point reflected by He whom you have believed, being the lighthouse for those that don't have what you have. Believers are spoiled because of their expertise in condemnation, which is not and will never be part of the job description. And many people are not Christians anymore because of the battering...whether literal or figurative.they have received from Christians. Christians are the only army that kill their wounded. On the other side of the coin, if you don't believe, no need to sympathize with those that do. It's also their choice. It's your work to seek that which you don't believe and get as much information about it.and thereby, be ready when anyone asks about the hope that you have.hopes being relative and categorical depending on which side you choose to be on. This (quote above) is not how to encourage a person to believe or return to belief in the truth of the message of Christ. I agree with you entirely, Enigma. |
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gbengaijot (m)
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For all who has criticise my post, Seun knows better about what i posted and that is why i said "this is for seun". I sincerely have always looked up to him as a very spiritual person( considering the way he answers some religious questions). I sincerely don't mean to attack seun that way. Maybe u all got me wrong but i know Seun Osewa did not, he knows i am quoting a particular portion of the bible.
N.B no offences
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goodguy (m)
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I think Seun should change this topic to: Why I Don't Believe In God AnymoreIt is really funny how those who formerly believed and then stopped believing, keep giving this same story as the reason why they stopped believing: I can't understand why a good God that knows all things and can do all things would allow evil to exist in his world. And I can't understand why a God that loves human beings would allow Satan to tempt them into disobeying him and then throw them into eternal torment for it. That doesn't seem fair at all and I can't believe that such a God is good in any sense. I'll make my contributions later...  |
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Seun (m)
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I remember when I shared this simplified explanation of my change of faith during a compulsory New Year's Eve family prayer meeting when I was asked to 'share'. My dad said, "we'll get back to you soon on the answer to those questions" and several years later he must still be working on it because I haven't heard from him.
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thekrafter (m)
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Seun, offtopic I know, but...
How did your family react to your change of faith? Were you raised in a Christian family? I am comfortable with discussing my change of faith with friends, but am unwilling to share it with my family because I don't want to hurt them, especially my mom. So, share.
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otokx (m)
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i just spotted something "change of faith" please can you elaborate.
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gbengaijot (m)
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@ottoks, abi ooooo...... i think the "change of faith" demands an explanation.
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gbengaijot (m)
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@ottoks, abi ooooo...... i think the "change of faith" demands an explanation.
@seun, the fact that your dad could not provide answers does not mean that the whole "christian issue" or the existence of God is unreal. And moreover U knw fully well( at least u do read the bible), that No one can question God for whatever he has done, coz he has a reason.
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old2boy (m)
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Seun, I've been around and i know you are passing thru a phase. Pray that the unexplained evil you believe (while rejecting the good) will not gain control of your thoughts.
Have you ever wondered what the world would be like if we are all forced to be what God wants? No different from the Angels my brother. God does not need more of that. He created you and i to have those that will FREELY love and worship Him.
Below is a post from a Christian site which might help to answer some of your questions.
------- -- - - === ==
A man went to a barber shop to have his hair and his beard cut as always. He started to have a good conversation with the barber who attended him. They talked about so many things and various subjects. Suddenly they touched on the subject of God. The barber said look man, I don't believe that God exists as you say.
Why do you say that? asked the client. Well, it's easy, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God does not exist. Oh tell me, if God existed, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be no suffering nor pain. I can't think of loving a God who permits all of these things.
The client stopped for a moment thinking, but he didn't want to respond so as to cause an argument. The barber finished his job and the client went out of the shop. Just after he left the barber shop he saw a man in the street with a long hair and beard (it seems that it had been a long time since he had his cut and looked so untidy).
Then the client again entered the barber shop and he said to the barber. You know what? Barbers do not exist. How can you say they don't exist? asked the barber. Well I am here and I am a barber. No! the client exclaimed. They don't exist because if they did there would be no people with long hair and beard like the man who walks in the street. Ah. barbers do exist. What happens is that people do not come to me.
Exactly! affirmed the client. There’s the point. God does exist, what happens is people don't go to Him and do not look for Him. That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world.
----- ++++ ------- +++++++ ----------
Seun, even the great writter C.S.Lewis passed thru this phase. He only regrets that one of those that influnced him in going into such unbelief died without salvation. I have passed thru the phase. I pray you also pass thru and you do not allow the eastern meditative occultism promoting free thinking lead you totally away.
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nferyn (m)
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[SNIP]
Exactly! affirmed the client. There’s the point. God does exist, what happens is people don't go to Him and do not look for Him. That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world.
Apologetic nonsense. 1. God could stop the pain and suffering at any time if he would want that 2. An omniscient God knows beforehand what you will do, you have no choice 3. Evil only happens because God wants evil to happen. If he would want it otherwise, it would be so (or he is not omnipotent) 4. The lion's share of all that pain and suffering is caused by people that have a strong conviction of the existence of God. We've had witch hunts, religious wars, religious terrorists, crusades, ... all in the name of God 5. Secular societies have lower levels of societal disfunction and are more egalitarian (the highest levels of religiosity in the world are to be found among prison inmates) Seun, even the great writter C.S.Lewis passed through this phase. He only regrets that one of those that influnced him in going into such unbelief died without salvation. He never did. He always believed in a supreme being and in the supernatural, but only later in life did he start calling himself a Christian I have passed through the phase. I pray you also pass through and you do not allow the eastern meditative occultism promoting free thinking lead you totally away.
What is eastern meditative occultism if I may ask? What if wrong with free thinking? |
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alheri (f)
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Well seun, I really dont have much to say to you but "may God help you find the right path". I also couldnt help but notice that you havent responded to layi in regards to his post here. Firstly seun, U've got to dissociate me from the naijarita issue. i never made any comment about it so i don't expect u to start a thread saying i did.
Yes i question your lack of belief in GOD but as per the naijarita issue.plz be accurate when u "report" people. I NEVER made any comment about it.
if he actually never made any comments on your "comments" on the naijarita news, I think you owe him an apology for saying he did. |
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old2boy (m)
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nferyn,
Have you been to Him to help you keep from evil? Have you willingly submitted your desires to His control? Have you experienced the cleansing of past wicked deeds? Have you seen old things - desires, sins, evil thoughts, etc pass away and replaced with a gentle loving Spirit? If not, you are still like the lice infested bushy headed man in the street who may want to claim ignorance of the existence of a barber. In fact he sees no need for one because he believes he is okay.
Seek Him and He will find you.
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goodguy (m)
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I'm really learning, especially from old2boy.
I'll post my arguments when appropriate.
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nferyn (m)
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nferyn,
Have you been to Him to help you keep from evil? Have you willingly submitted your desires to His control? Have you experienced the cleansing of past wicked deeds? Have you seen old things - desires, sins, evil thoughts, etc pass away and replaced with a gentle loving Spirit? If not, you are still like the lice infested bushy headed man in the street who may want to claim ignorance of the existence of a barber. In fact he sees no need for one because he believes he is okay.
Seek Him and He will find you.
Seek him who does not exist? If you give me proof of His existence, I wil go and look. Why don't you go and look for Zeus, another one of these imaginary skydaddies? |
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chrisd (m)
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Full support to what nfern has said here. The future of humanity does not get better depending whether you christian, muslim, atheist whatever. It much rests on our responsibilities on what to do and what not to do. We have more power today than we ever had before.
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exu (m)
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lol @ "skydaddies"
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hot-angel (f)
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*laughs in chinese*. I'll rather do evil than announce to the world that Im not christian anymore.
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Olorididan (m)
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Seun I'll let you into a secret. The reason why God created the Devil is very simple... TO JUSTIFY HIS PERFECTION Let me explain. The only power that God didn't give the Devil is the one of TIME! God is eternal... No beginning and no end. In other words he determines when some thing starts and when it stops. In other words God operates outside of time.. EVERYTHING ELSE INCLUDING THE DEVIL OPERATES WITHIN THAT TIME. Because everything operates within time and time is relative (Note Einstein's theory of relativity here... its more religion than science)... to God time isn't relative... He determines it. In order for time to exist and for things to work relative to and within time, we that exist within time must exist within the beginning and the end set for us. In other words, we must be born (beginning), stay alive, grow, reproduce, grow old and die(end). This applies to all existence... Humans, plants, animals, planets, stars, galaxies..... Everything that takes place within that period MUST BE TO JUSTIFY GOD'S PERFECTION! How? Well because we exist in time and everything in time is relative, then we CANNOT BE BORN PERFECT... Our "Perfection" must be AN UNENDING PROCESS where we constantly and consistently go from worse to good to better to best... The catch is that what was best (or perfect) 100 years ago is now worst (relatively). AND SO THIS PROCESS OF UNENDING ETERNAL IMPROVEMENT (OR ETERNAL PERFECTON) GOES ON AND ON. Which brings us to the DEVIL. The DEVIL IS SIMPLY GOD'S INSTRUMENT USED TO ENFORCE AND PERPETUATE THAT PROCESS OF ETERNAL IMPROVEMENT (ETERNAL PERFECTION). Much like a Professor (God) has a PhD student (Devil) whom he teaches everything except the one to do with TIME, and then charges that student to ATTEMPT TO TAKE APART/DESTROY EVERYTHING HE PUTS TOGETHER. Ultimately the Devil fails because he does not know what God knows out of time, but in the process of doing his job of trying to destroy everything that God creates, what he's actually doing is making them better and better and better forever and ever. That is the essence of CHRISTIANITY... That you understand the role of the Devil and that he's simply an instrument in God's hands TO JUSTIFY HIS PERFECTION. For you to fully understand it, you must think beyond all the terrible things you see and experience, beyond desease, poverty, war, rape, crime.... beyond your life and MOST IMPORTANTLY BEYOND DEATH! Because if the Devil ever persuades you that there is no GOD then he will simply have proved you defective (NOT GOD)... UNTIL OF COURSE YOU COME TO THE REALISATION THAT YOU ARE GOD'S CREATION, THAT YOU ARE GOOD (as the Bible says) AND THAT GOD'S WISH AND PLAN FOR YOU IS TO GO FROM GOOD TO BETTER TO BEST. ITS YOUR CHOICE... ITS EVERYBODY'S CHOICE.... NOT THE DEVIL'S..... mess THE DEVIL!  |
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