Saturday Or Sunday

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Nairaland Forum  |  General Discussion  |  Religion (Moderators: mukina2, A_K_O)  |  Saturday Or Sunday
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Author Topic: Saturday Or Sunday  (Read 895 views)
Horus (m)
Re: Saturday Or Sunday
« #32 on: June 04, 2007, 02:53 PM »


Photograp of an Ass

  behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass’s colt. (John 12:15, in part)

If you Christians want to worship something, why don’t you worship the ass? After all, it was the ass that bore the Messiah Jesus’ weight and delivered him to the city of Jerusalem. The palms on the other hand, were merely laid on the ground to be stepped on and crumbled.
gbade. x (m)
Re: Saturday Or Sunday
« #33 on: June 04, 2007, 03:10 PM »

. . .then by your statements, it would be the same ass that carried your "black jesus", why aren't you worshipping the ass as well?

That's right Horus, do us a favour and beat it!
thesilent1 (m)
Re: Saturday Or Sunday
« #34 on: June 04, 2007, 04:12 PM »

Horus,

Do not make me go all "samson" on you with that ass Grin
Bobbyaf (m)
Re: Saturday Or Sunday
« #35 on: June 05, 2007, 06:56 AM »

Many Sunday observers argue that the change of the Sabbath from the seventh to the first day of the week dates back to Jesus and His apostles. They assert that Sunday observance replaced the seventh-day Sabbath for most Christians as early as the first century A.D. and became a fixed custom by the mid-second century. Therefore, they urge that all Christians today should regard the seventh-day Sabbath as a Jewish institution that should not be observed. Since Sunday was the first day of creation week (Gen. 1:5) and the day on which Christ rose from the dead (Matt. 28:1-10; Mark 16:1-9), it should be observed as a day of Christian worship and rejoicing in accordance with the custom of the early Christian fathers. In fact, Sunday keepers argue that observance of the seventh-day Sabbath is a highly legalistic custom that is thoroughly consistent with those Jewish ceremonial practices abolished when Jesus died on the cross.

This theory raises a whole series of questions in regard to the teaching of the New Testament and the testimony of history. Did Jesus change the day from the seventh to the first day of the week? Did the apostles urge that Sunday be observed as a memorial of the resurrection of Christ? Did they themselves observe Sunday as a special day of worship? Was first-day worship a substitute for Sabbath worship for most Christians as early as the second century A.D.? Was the Sabbath regarded by early Christians as a purely Jewish institution with no significance for followers of Christ? What does history have to teach us regarding the reason for the change of the day from the seventh to the first day of the week? These questions are vital for Christians today! If it happens to be unscriptural and unhistorical that Sunday observance was initiated by Christ and the apostles, those who argue so strenuously for it today are supporting a non-Christian practice. If Jesus and the apostles observed the seventh-day Sabbath, and Sunday keeping crept into the Christian Church over a period of centuries as pagan ideas and practices became more and more acceptable, those who reject the Sabbath today are spurning one of Christ's commandments and are, therefore, in grave danger of being rejected by God.

To be a Christian is to believe and act as Jesus did (John 14:15; Rev. 3:21; 12:17; 14:12). To profess faith in Christ while rejecting aspects of His teaching and refusing to live and worship as He instructed is to be guilty of serious sin. "Whoever says, 'I have come to know him,' but does not obey his commandments, is a liar, and in such a person the truth does not exist; but whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has reached perfection. By this we may be sure that we are in him: whoever says, 'I abide in him,' ought to walk just as he walked" (1 John 2:4-6).

We will begin with the Scriptures and then turn to history for the answers to the questions we are asking. A much more complete discussion of the Sabbath-Sunday question can be found in the book edited by Kenneth A. Strand, The Sabbath in Scripture and History (Washington, DC.: Review and Herald, 1982).



DID JESUS AND THE APOSTLES CHANGE THE DAY OF WORSHIP FROM THE SEVENTH-DAY SABBATH TO SUNDAY, THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK?

The word Sunday or Saturday are not found in the Bible. In the New Testament the first day of the week is mentioned eight times. In none of the eight instances is the first day said to be a day of worship, never is it said to be the Christian substitute for the Old Testament Sabbath, and never do the texts suggest that the first day of the week should be regarded as a memorial of Christ's resurrection. Let us briefly consider each of the eight New Testament passages that mention the first day of the week.

Matthew 28:1, "After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. And suddenly there was a great earthquake. . . ." Jesus was crucified on Friday. He rested in the tomb over the Sabbath and rose early on Sunday morning. The verse indicates that the women disciples returned to the tomb at the very first opportunity after the death and burial of Jesus. Because the Sabbath came so soon after His burial, they could not approach the tomb again until after sundown on Sabbath evening. (The Sabbath began at sundown on the sixth day and ended at sundown on the seventh day; compare Lev. 23:32; Neh. 13:19; Mark 1:21, 32) Early Sunday morning was the most convenient time for them to visit the tomb.

Mark 16:1, 2, "When the sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb." Mark records the same events as Matthew with the additional information that the women visited the tomb early on the Sunday morning for the express purpose of anointing Jesus' body with spices.

Mark 16:9, "Now after he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons." This verse simply records that, after His resurrection early on the Sunday morning, Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene.

Luke 23:54 ­ 24:1, "It [the day of Jesus' death and burial] was the day of Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning. The women who had come with him from Galilee followed, and they saw the tomb and how his body was laid. Then they returned, and prepared spices and ointments. On the sabbath they rested according to the commandment. But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, taking the spices that they had prepared."

The Sabbath came a few hours after Jesus' death on the cross. The women disciples "rested the sabbath day according to the commandment" (Luke 23:56, KJV). Then very early in the morning of the first day they visited the tomb to anoint the body of Jesus. The fact that they observed the Sabbath rest is sufficient indication that Jesus had never attempted to change the day or to suggest that after His death the first day would replace the Sabbath. Writing years after the event, Luke gave not the slightest hint that, even though the women disciples of Jesus observed the Sabbath, such a practice was no longer expected of Christians. He simply recorded that the Sabbath day "according to the commandment," which Jesus' followers were careful to observe, was the day after the crucifixion day (Friday), and before the resurrection day (Sunday).

John 20:1, "Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb." Mary Magdalene visited the tomb early the first day of the week. Nothing is said of Sunday as a day of worship or rest.

John 20:19, "When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, 'Peace be with you.'"

On the evening of the first day of the week the disciples were assembled behind locked doors "for fear of the Jews." Jesus appeared to them at that time. The passage does not say that henceforth Sunday was to be the day for worship. Since it was the evening of the first day of the week that Jesus appeared to the disciples, it was after sundown. According to Jewish reckoning this was actually the beginning of the second day (Monday; compare Gen. 1:5, Cool. A week later when Thomas happened to be present, Jesus met with the disciples again (verse 26). But, writing years later, John records nothing regarding Sunday as a day of Christian worship. John's narrative gives no warrant for regarding Sunday as a substitute for the Sabbath or as a day to be distinguished by Christians above any other day of the week. And there is no indication in the passage that Sunday should henceforth be observed as a memorial of Christ's resurrection.

Acts 20:7, "On the first day of the week, when we met to break bread, Paul was holding a discussion with them; since he intended to leave the next day, he continued speaking until midnight."

Since the meeting was held at night on the first day of the week, it may have been Saturday night. According to Jewish reckoning, the Sabbath ended and the first day of the week began at sundown of the seventh day. If it were Sunday evening, the event gives no suggestion that Sunday should be observed as a day of worship. The following verses record that Paul preached a sermon on Thursday. The next day after the meeting recorded in Acts 20:7 (Monday), Paul and his party set sail for Mitylene (Acts 20:13, 14). The following day (Tuesday) they arrived opposite Chios (verse 15). The next day (Wednesday) they passed Samos (verse 15), and the day after that (Thursday) they arrived at Miletus (verse 15). The elders of the church of Ephesus met Paul at Miletus, and he preached to them (Acts 20:16-36). Because a Christian service was held on Thursday, do we conclude that Thursday is a day for regular Christian worship replacing the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath? A religious service on Sunday, Thursday, or any other day certainly did not make that day a replacement for the seventh-day Sabbath or a day of regular Christian worship and rest. There is no special significance in the disciples breaking bread at this first-day meeting, for they broke bread "daily" (Acts 2:46). We are not told that it was a Lord's Supper celebration, nor are we told that henceforth Sunday should be the day for this service to be conducted. To read Sunday sacredness or Sunday observance into Acts 20:7 is to do violence to the text.

1 Corinthians 16:1, 2, "Now concerning the collection for the saints: you should follow the directions I gave the churches of Galatia. On the first day of every week, each of you is to put aside and save whatever extra you earn, so that collections need not be taken when I come. And when I arrive, I will send any whom you approve with letters to take your gift to Jerusalem."

These verses may be literally translated from the Greek as follows: "And concerning the collection for the saints, as I instructed the churches of Galatia, so also you do. On the first day of the week let each of you place (or 'lay') by himself, storing up whatever he might be prospered, so that when I come there might be no collections." (Italics supplied.) The phrase "by himself" (par' heauto), followed by the participle "storing up" or "saving" (thesaupizon), rules out the possibility that this is a reference to an offering taken up in a worship service. The Christian believer was to check his accounts on Sunday and put by at home the money that he wished to give to Paul for the support of the church. When Paul arrived, then the offerings of each individual would be collected.

None of these eight New Testament references to the first day of the week (Sunday), provides any evidence that Jesus or His disciples changed the day of worship from the seventh to the first day. Nor is the first day of the week represented as a time to memorialize the resurrection of Christ. Whatever special significance was given to Sunday in the later history of the church, it had no basis in the teaching or practice of Jesus and His apostles.

As pointed out in the previous chapter, Jesus instructed His disciples to observe the Sabbath after His death (Matt. 24:20). Jesus' instruction was incorporated into His interpretation of Daniel 8 (compare Matthew 24:15 ff.). Daniel predicted that the work of the little horn power would continue until the setting up of God's kingdom (Dan. 8:25). Hence, Jesus' instruction to flee from the little horn power was not confined to Christians at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70). Toward the end of time, during the great tribulation of Matthew 24:21, of which earlier tribulations were a type or preview, God's people will be obliged to flee again. Jesus' instruction that we pray that our flight will not be on the Sabbath day emphasizes His will that we engage in only those activities on the Sabbath that are consistent with worship and spiritual rest.

The record of the book of Acts (chapters 13, 16­,18) establishes that the apostles consistently kept the Sabbath day as a time for worship and fellowship. This observance was not merely a means of meeting the Jews in the synagogue on their Sabbath day. In Philippi, Paul and his companions met for worship by the riverside. Luke says, "On the sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed [or "thought" or "assumed" : Greek nomizo] there was a place for prayer. . . ." (Acts 16:13). The apostles selected a place by the river that they thought would be appropriate for their Sabbath worship service, and there they prayed and witnessed for their Lord.

Jesus and the apostles kept the seventh-day Sabbath and instructed others to do likewise.

DID THE APOSTLE PAUL REJECT THE SEVENTH-DAY SABBATH?
Despite the evidence that Jesus kept the Sabbath (Luke 4:16) and encouraged His followers to do the same (Matt. 24:20), and despite the evidence that Paul customarily observed the Sabbath (Acts 13, 16, 17, 18), some Bible students focus on certain passages in Paul's writings as supposed evidence that he sought to do away with the seventh-day Sabbath. The two passages that are usually presented are Romans 14:5, 6 and Colossians 2:13-17.

The Romans passage in context reads as follows:

"Welcome those who are weak in faith, but not for the purpose of quarreling over opinions. 2. Some believe in eating anything, while the weak eat only vegetables. 3. Those who eat must not despise those who abstain, and those who abstain must not pass judgment on those who eat; for God has welcomed them. 4. Who are you to pass judgment on servants of another? It is before their own lord that they stand or fall. And they will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make them stand. 5. Some judge one day to be better than another, while others judge all days to be alike. Let all be fully convinced in their own minds. 6. Those who observe the day, observe it in honor of the Lord. Also those who eat, eat in honor of the Lord, since they give thanks to God; while those who abstain, abstain in honor of the Lord and give thanks to God" (Rom. 14:1-6).

The above reference isn't suggesting that the importance that God placed on the seventh-day sabbath be lessened in any manner, because in truth and reality it had nothing to do with the seventh-day sabbath that is found in God's ten commandments. The above reference had to do with the jewish festival days that were themselves different types of sabbaths. It was these days that jewish christians argued about as to which one of those days carried more significance, even though they were more or less shadows, or types of the kind of ministry of Christ. Like the rite of circumcision, these sabbaths were still being pushed as being significant by overzealous jewish christians as opposed to the gentile christians whom they saught to influence.

The truth is the observance of sunday crept in christian circles because of the overriding pagan practises. The Sun god was honored on the first day of the week, and that day was dedicated by the Roman pagans. When Constantine the pagan sought political power his strategy during the 4th century was to win the hearts of everyone including christians. What better way to unite the fragile state of Rome than to marry paganism with christianity. Smart politician wasn't he?

Constantine eventually regulated in 321 AD that no work should be done on Sunday, except work involving those of the farmers and agriculturists.

We now summarize this article by reiterating that Jesus and the apostles observed the seventh-day Sabbath. There is no evidence in the New Testament for Sunday as a day of rest and worship. The New Testament nowhere invites or instructs Christians to observe Sunday as a memorial of Christ's resurrection. The apostle Paul did not attempt to abolish the seventh-day Sabbath. He consistently observed it. The Sabbath was neglected and depreciated in second-century Rome and Alexandria. Sabbath observance was progressively replaced by Sunday observance in the centuries that followed. But time and tradition to not abolish the law of God. Jesus said, "Whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5:19).


stimulus (m)
Re: Saturday Or Sunday
« #36 on: June 05, 2007, 07:52 AM »

@Bobbyaf,

Quote from: Bobbyaf on June 05, 2007, 06:56 AM
Many Sunday observers argue that the change of the Sabbath from the seventh to the first day of the week dates back to Jesus and His apostles. They assert that Sunday observance replaced the seventh-day Sabbath for most Christians as early as the first century A.D. and became a fixed custom by the mid-second century. Therefore, they urge that all Christians today should regard the seventh-day Sabbath as a Jewish institution that should not be observed. Since Sunday was the first day of creation week (Gen. 1:5) and the day on which Christ rose from the dead (Matt. 28:1-10; Mark 16:1-9), it should be observed as a day of Christian worship and rejoicing in accordance with the custom of the early Christian fathers. In fact, Sunday keepers argue that observance of the seventh-day Sabbath is a highly legalistic custom that is thoroughly consistent with those Jewish ceremonial practices abolished when Jesus died on the cross.

This theory raises a whole series of questions in regard to the teaching of the New Testament and the testimony of history. Did Jesus change the day from the seventh to the first day of the week? Did the apostles urge that Sunday be observed as a memorial of the resurrection of Christ? Did they themselves observe Sunday as a special day of worship? Was first-day worship a substitute for Sabbath worship for most Christians as early as the second century A.D.? Was the Sabbath regarded by early Christians as a purely Jewish institution with no significance for followers of Christ? What does history have to teach us regarding the reason for the change of the day from the seventh to the first day of the week? These questions are vital for Christians today! If it happens to be unscriptural and unhistorical that Sunday observance was initiated by Christ and the apostles, those who argue so strenuously for it today are supporting a non-Christian practice. If Jesus and the apostles observed the seventh-day Sabbath, and Sunday keeping crept into the Christian Church over a period of centuries as pagan ideas and practices became more and more acceptable, those who reject the Sabbath today are spurning one of Christ's commandments and are, therefore, in grave danger of being rejected by God.

To be a Christian is to believe and act as Jesus did (John 14:15; Rev. 3:21; 12:17; 14:12). To profess faith in Christ while rejecting aspects of His teaching and refusing to live and worship as He instructed is to be guilty of serious sin. "Whoever says, 'I have come to know him,' but does not obey his commandments, is a liar, and in such a person the truth does not exist; but whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has reached perfection. By this we may be sure that we are in him: whoever says, 'I abide in him,' ought to walk just as he walked" (1 John 2:4-6).

We will begin with the Scriptures and then turn to history for the answers to the questions we are asking. A much more complete discussion of the Sabbath-Sunday question can be found in the book edited by Kenneth A. Strand, The Sabbath in Scripture and History (Washington, DC.: Review and Herald, 1982).



DID JESUS AND THE APOSTLES CHANGE THE DAY OF WORSHIP FROM THE SEVENTH-DAY SABBATH TO SUNDAY, THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK?

The word Sunday or Saturday are not found in the Bible. In the New Testament the first day of the week is mentioned eight times. In none of the eight instances is the first day said to be a day of worship, never is it said to be the Christian substitute for the Old Testament Sabbath, and never do the texts suggest that the first day of the week should be regarded as a memorial of Christ's resurrection. Let us briefly consider each of the eight New Testament passages that mention the first day of the week.

Matthew 28:1, "After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. And suddenly there was a great earthquake. . . ." Jesus was crucified on Friday. He rested in the tomb over the Sabbath and rose early on Sunday morning. The verse indicates that the women disciples returned to the tomb at the very first opportunity after the death and burial of Jesus. Because the Sabbath came so soon after His burial, they could not approach the tomb again until after sundown on Sabbath evening. (The Sabbath began at sundown on the sixth day and ended at sundown on the seventh day; compare Lev. 23:32; Neh. 13:19; Mark 1:21, 32) Early Sunday morning was the most convenient time for them to visit the tomb.

Mark 16:1, 2, "When the sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb." Mark records the same events as Matthew with the additional information that the women visited the tomb early on the Sunday morning for the express purpose of anointing Jesus' body with spices.

Mark 16:9, "Now after he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons." This verse simply records that, after His resurrection early on the Sunday morning, Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene.

Luke 23:54 ­ 24:1, "It [the day of Jesus' death and burial] was the day of Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning. The women who had come with him from Galilee followed, and they saw the tomb and how his body was laid. Then they returned, and prepared spices and ointments. On the sabbath they rested according to the commandment. But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, taking the spices that they had prepared."

The Sabbath came a few hours after Jesus' death on the cross. The women disciples "rested the sabbath day according to the commandment" (Luke 23:56, KJV). Then very early in the morning of the first day they visited the tomb to anoint the body of Jesus. The fact that they observed the Sabbath rest is sufficient indication that Jesus had never attempted to change the day or to suggest that after His death the first day would replace the Sabbath. Writing years after the event, Luke gave not the slightest hint that, even though the women disciples of Jesus observed the Sabbath, such a practice was no longer expected of Christians. He simply recorded that the Sabbath day "according to the commandment," which Jesus' followers were careful to observe, was the day after the crucifixion day (Friday), and before the resurrection day (Sunday).

John 20:1, "Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb." Mary Magdalene visited the tomb early the first day of the week. Nothing is said of Sunday as a day of worship or rest.

John 20:19, "When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, 'Peace be with you.'"

On the evening of the first day of the week the disciples were assembled behind locked doors "for fear of the Jews." Jesus appeared to them at that time. The passage does not say that henceforth Sunday was to be the day for worship. Since it was the evening of the first day of the week that Jesus appeared to the disciples, it was after sundown. According to Jewish reckoning this was actually the beginning of the second day (Monday; compare Gen. 1:5, Cool. A week later when Thomas happened to be present, Jesus met with the disciples again (verse 26). But, writing years later, John records nothing regarding Sunday as a day of Christian worship. John's narrative gives no warrant for regarding Sunday as a substitute for the Sabbath or as a day to be distinguished by Christians above any other day of the week. And there is no indication in the passage that Sunday should henceforth be observed as a memorial of Christ's resurrection.

Acts 20:7, "On the first day of the week, when we met to break bread, Paul was holding a discussion with them; since he intended to leave the next day, he continued speaking until midnight."

Since the meeting was held at night on the first day of the week, it may have been Saturday night. According to Jewish reckoning, the Sabbath ended and the first day of the week began at sundown of the seventh day. If it were Sunday evening, the event gives no suggestion that Sunday should be observed as a day of worship. The following verses record that Paul preached a sermon on Thursday. The next day after the meeting recorded in Acts 20:7 (Monday), Paul and his party set sail for Mitylene (Acts 20:13, 14). The following day (Tuesday) they arrived opposite Chios (verse 15). The next day (Wednesday) they passed Samos (verse 15), and the day after that (Thursday) they arrived at Miletus (verse 15). The elders of the church of Ephesus met Paul at Miletus, and he preached to them (Acts 20:16-36). Because a Christian service was held on Thursday, do we conclude that Thursday is a day for regular Christian worship replacing the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath? A religious service on Sunday, Thursday, or any other day certainly did not make that day a replacement for the seventh-day Sabbath or a day of regular Christian worship and rest. There is no special significance in the disciples breaking bread at this first-day meeting, for they broke bread "daily" (Acts 2:46). We are not told that it was a Lord's Supper celebration, nor are we told that henceforth Sunday should be the day for this service to be conducted. To read Sunday sacredness or Sunday observance into Acts 20:7 is to do violence to the text.

1 Corinthians 16:1, 2, "Now concerning the collection for the saints: you should follow the directions I gave the churches of Galatia. On the first day of every week, each of you is to put aside and save whatever extra you earn, so that collections need not be taken when I come. And when I arrive, I will send any whom you approve with letters to take your gift to Jerusalem."

These verses may be literally translated from the Greek as follows: "And concerning the collection for the saints, as I instructed the churches of Galatia, so also you do. On the first day of the week let each of you place (or 'lay') by himself, storing up whatever he might be prospered, so that when I come there might be no collections." (Italics supplied.) The phrase "by himself" (par' heauto), followed by the participle "storing up" or "saving" (thesaupizon), rules out the possibility that this is a reference to an offering taken up in a worship service. The Christian believer was to check his accounts on Sunday and put by at home the money that he wished to give to Paul for the support of the church. When Paul arrived, then the offerings of each individual would be collected.

None of these eight New Testament references to the first day of the week (Sunday), provides any evidence that Jesus or His disciples changed the day of worship from the seventh to the first day. Nor is the first day of the week represented as a time to memorialize the resurrection of Christ. Whatever special significance was given to Sunday in the later history of the church, it had no basis in the teaching or practice of Jesus and His apostles.

As pointed out in the previous chapter, Jesus instructed His disciples to observe the Sabbath after His death (Matt. 24:20). Jesus' instruction was incorporated into His interpretation of Daniel 8 (compare Matthew 24:15 ff.). Daniel predicted that the work of the little horn power would continue until the setting up of God's kingdom (Dan. 8:25). Hence, Jesus' instruction to flee from the little horn power was not confined to Christians at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70). Toward the end of time, during the great tribulation of Matthew 24:21, of which earlier tribulations were a type or preview, God's people will be obliged to flee again. Jesus' instruction that we pray that our flight will not be on the Sabbath day emphasizes His will that we engage in only those activities on the Sabbath that are consistent with worship and spiritual rest.

The record of the book of Acts (chapters 13, 16­,18) establishes that the apostles consistently kept the Sabbath day as a time for worship and fellowship. This observance was not merely a means of meeting the Jews in the synagogue on their Sabbath day. In Philippi, Paul and his companions met for worship by the riverside. Luke says, "On the sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed [or "thought" or "assumed" : Greek nomizo] there was a place for prayer. . . ." (Acts 16:13). The apostles selected a place by the river that they thought would be appropriate for their Sabbath worship service, and there they prayed and witnessed for their Lord.

Jesus and the apostles kept the seventh-day Sabbath and instructed others to do likewise.

DID THE APOSTLE PAUL REJECT THE SEVENTH-DAY SABBATH?
Despite the evidence that Jesus kept the Sabbath (Luke 4:16) and encouraged His followers to do the same (Matt. 24:20), and despite the evidence that Paul customarily observed the Sabbath (Acts 13, 16, 17, 18), some Bible students focus on certain passages in Paul's writings as supposed evidence that he sought to do away with the seventh-day Sabbath. The two passages that are usually presented are Romans 14:5, 6 and Colossians 2:13-17.

The Romans passage in context reads as follows:

"Welcome those who are weak in faith, but not for the purpose of quarreling over opinions. 2. Some believe in eating anything, while the weak eat only vegetables. 3. Those who eat must not despise those who abstain, and those who abstain must not pass judgment on those who eat; for God has welcomed them. 4. Who are you to pass judgment on servants of another? It is before their own lord that they stand or fall. And they will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make them stand. 5. Some judge one day to be better than another, while others judge all days to be alike. Let all be fully convinced in their own minds. 6. Those who observe the day, observe it in honor of the Lord. Also those who eat, eat in honor of the Lord, since they give thanks to God; while those who abstain, abstain in honor of the Lord and give thanks to God" (Rom. 14:1-6).

The above reference isn't suggesting that the importance that God placed on the seventh-day sabbath be lessened in any manner, because in truth and reality it had nothing to do with the seventh-day sabbath that is found in God's ten commandments. The above reference had to do with the jewish festival days that were themselves different types of sabbaths. It was these days that jewish christians argued about as to which one of those days carried more significance, even though they were more or less shadows, or types of the kind of ministry of Christ. Like the rite of circumcision, these sabbaths were still being pushed as being significant by overzealous jewish christians as opposed to the gentile christians whom they saught to influence.

The truth is the observance of sunday crept in christian circles because of the overriding pagan practises. The Sun god was honored on the first day of the week, and that day was dedicated by the Roman pagans. When Constantine the pagan sought political power his strategy during the 4th century was to win the hearts of everyone including christians. What better way to unite the fragile state of Rome than to marry paganism with christianity. Smart politician wasn't he?

Constantine eventually regulated in 321 AD that no work should be done on Sunday, except work involving those of the farmers and agriculturists.

We now summarize this article by reiterating that Jesus and the apostles observed the seventh-day Sabbath. There is no evidence in the New Testament for Sunday as a day of rest and worship. The New Testament nowhere invites or instructs Christians to observe Sunday as a memorial of Christ's resurrection. The apostle Paul did not attempt to abolish the seventh-day Sabbath. He consistently observed it. The Sabbath was neglected and depreciated in second-century Rome and Alexandria. Sabbath observance was progressively replaced by Sunday observance in the centuries that followed. But time and tradition to not abolish the law of God. Jesus said, "Whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5:19).

You do realize you really have no answers for this debate. Next time, be so kind as to leave us the link for the materials you plagiarize from other sources, as it is far more dignified to do so:

        http://www.sabbathfellowship.org/biblestudies/erwingane/biblestudy_gane_sabbathchng.htm

That said, the argument above was simply wafted from the typical perspective of seventh-day adventists/sabbath group (www.sabbathfellowship.org), and I would have no problem with that.

The only thing seventh-day adventists and sabbatarians miss out is a huge one, and that is this:

        Sabbatarians should realize that there are NO EXEMPTIONS NOR EXCUSES in the Sabbath Law;
        therefore they should not cheat on this, but STRICTLY observe the law of the Sabbath according
        to the STIPULATIONS  outlined in Scripture.

If sabbatarians bend the Law of the Sabbath to accommodate their "exemptions" and excuses, they should realize they are effectively REBELLING against that Law.  Grin
thesilent1 (m)
Re: Saturday Or Sunday
« #37 on: June 05, 2007, 08:35 AM »

Quote
[If sabbatarians bend the Law of the Sabbath to accommodate their "exemptions" and excuses, they should realize they are effectively REBELLING against that Law/quote]

he does have a point
Bobbyaf (m)
Re: Saturday Or Sunday
« #38 on: June 06, 2007, 04:52 AM »

Quote
Sabbatarians should realize that there are NO EXEMPTIONS NOR EXCUSES in the Sabbath Law;
        therefore they should not cheat on this, but STRICTLY observe the law of the Sabbath according
        to the STIPULATIONS  outlined in Scripture.

The apostle James says if you break one you're guilty of all. Every true christian should be concerned about all 10 of God's holy precepts, and should strive to be obedient to all of them.

You're making out the Lord's day of rest to be a burden largely due to your misunderstanding of its context and application, by stressing stipulations that were fitting for the time in which those stipulations were given. Any reasonable thinker should know by now that not every sabbath stipulation that was designed for a particular situation can still be expected to apply now.

SDAs don't need to make excuses for seeing the real purpose of the sabbath, of which purpose you have not been able to fully grasp based on your view of why God instituted the sabbath from the very beginning. The scriptures have made it abundantly clear as to God's purpose and plan for the divine institution. Whatever importance is applied to the marriage institution would obviously apply to the sabbath since both are edenic.

I am satisfied with what Jesus said and not you. His voice alone merits my attention, not yours. If He said that the sabbath was made for mankind, then we as SDAs are included in that plan and purpose. It would be nice if you could open your eyes to such glorious truth, but alas your choice is yours to make.

"Whoever says, 'I have come to know him,' but does not obey his commandments, is a liar, and in such a person the truth does not exist; but whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has reached perfection. By this we may be sure that we are in him: whoever says, 'I abide in him,' ought to walk just as he walked" (1 John 2:4-6).

"Whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5:19).

Cheers!









 
stimulus (m)
Re: Saturday Or Sunday
« #39 on: June 06, 2007, 06:18 AM »

@Bobbyaf,

Quote from: Bobbyaf on June 06, 2007, 04:52 AM
The apostle James says if you break one you're guilty of all. Every true christian should be concerned about all 10 of God's holy precepts, and should strive to be obedient to all of them.

The apostle James would certainly not have asked Christians to be yoked by the stringent Law of the Sabbath with all of its stipulations and then make room for what you call "exemptions".

Quote from: Bobbyaf on June 06, 2007, 04:52 AM
You're making out the Lord's day of rest to be a burden largely due to your misunderstanding of its context and application, by stressing stipulations that were fitting for the time in which those stipulations were given. Any reasonable thinker should know by now that not every sabbath stipulation that was designed for a particular situation can still be expected to apply now.

My premise is simple enough: you cannot change even one stroke or tittle of the stipulations of the Sabbath Law and regard it as no longer applicable - that would be both hypocritical, scandalous and rebellious. Since you have been arguing for the Sabbath Law, you should aim to keep it in exactly as the Law prescribes; and not re-design it to suit any 21st century whims.

Quote from: Bobbyaf on June 06, 2007, 04:52 AM
SDAs don't need to make excuses for seeing the real purpose of the sabbath, of which purpose you have not been able to fully grasp based on your view of why God instituted the sabbath from the very beginning. The scriptures have made it abundantly clear as to God's purpose and plan for the divine institution. Whatever importance is applied to the marriage institution would obviously apply to the sabbath since both are edenic.

I'm not the one arguing for the Sabbath Law or making excuses for it. Rather, you've severally offered excuses for those 'professionals' who go to work to make money for their pockets under the guise of 'emergent' cases. My reasoning has been consistent from the onset:

    1) I warned that it was needless to reharsh a well-rounded debate from another thread since you've been unable to answer the germane questions raised there;

    2) If you must argue for the Law of the Sabbath, then you would have to adhere to its stipulations and make no excuses for the convenient and selective practices of the SDA;

    3) If you're arguing for a Sabbath Law in Genesis, then provide the verse in Genesis where God gave such a Law to Adam and Eve; for it is indeed senseless to apply the Mosaic Law that was given several centuries later on people that came before that Law;

    4) The Sabbath Law was not made for Christians.

Quote from: Bobbyaf on June 06, 2007, 04:52 AM
I am satisfied with what Jesus said and not you. His voice alone merits my attention, not yours. If He said that the sabbath was made for mankind, then we as SDAs are included in that plan and purpose. It would be nice if you could open your eyes to such glorious truth, but alas your choice is yours to make.

It would really be nice for you to open your eyes to the truth that Jesus did not ask the SDA to make exemptions to the Law of the Sabbath. You have been knotting yourself by your contradictions and offering fine sounding cliches to circumvent the stipulations of the same Law you cannot keep and still asking others to keep. Obedience to the Law is on God's prescriptions - not on your terms or that of the SDA.

Quote from: Bobbyaf on June 06, 2007, 04:52 AM
"Whoever says, 'I have come to know him,' but does not obey his commandments, is a liar, and in such a person the truth does not exist; but whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has reached perfection. By this we may be sure that we are in him: whoever says, 'I abide in him,' ought to walk just as he walked" (1 John 2:4-6).

I thank God for that verse. And here are a few for those who make excuses and exemptions for the Law they cannot keep:

"But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?. . . Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition." (Matt. 15:3 & 6)

"And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition." (Mark 7:9)

Quote from: Bobbyaf on June 06, 2007, 04:52 AM
"Whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5:19).

Cheers!

For your sake, I hope you see that Matt. 5:19 speaks to your own case? You can keep the Law of the Sabbath if you want to; but if you make exemptions in order to break it in the least, not only do you make yourself 'least' in the Kingdom of heaven, but you also constitute yourself a rebel against that same Law by excusing its prescriptions or stipulations.

Have you not made exemptions in your previous rejoinders in order that ye may keep your SDA tradition?  Grin

Regards.
thesilent1 (m)
Re: Saturday Or Sunday
« #40 on: June 06, 2007, 08:43 AM »

Quote
you cannot change even one stroke or tittle of the stipulations of the Sabbath Law and regard it as no longer applicable

TRUE

my take on this is that the fundamental thing to bear in mind here is the "age" or "administration" that we are in. let me explain; garden of eden, fall of man, law, grace, etc (not in actual order) and if you read through the bible you see that the "administration" determined how to live, worship, marry, eat, etc.

for example in the garden, nothing was bad to eat (apart from the obvious one people; the tree), after the fall, certain things become unclean so certain things are not allowed to be eaten, enter grace in NT and it changes again. another one is worship/prayer; in the garden it is relationship so chilling together in the cool of the day, after the fall, it is sacrifice on an alter, enter the law and it is no longer just anywhere, it is now in the temple, enter grace and its no longer restricted and back to the garden of relationship and not LIMITED to just one group of people or one place.

in its most simplest form, it can be described as perfection, fall, return to perfection (ongoing)

considering how prevalent among Christian churches is the custom of getting together for a Sunday service. As usual, the question we must ask is, “What does the Bible say?” And yes, the Bible does prescribe taking one day a week, “the seventh day,” as God did, for a “Sabbath.” It is most important to understand that the word “sabbath” is a hebrew word that means “a rest.” A day of rest was to follow six days of work. It actually had nothing to do with going to a worship service. but the key question is for whom is, or, more accurately, was the Sabbath prescribed?

“What does the Bible say?” That is always the “bottom line,” but the answer must be understood in light of to whom the Bible is speaking. Scripture says that in the spectrum of human history, there are three, and only three, basic groups of people: “Jews, Gentiles, and the Church of God” (1 Cor. 10:32). Each part of God's Word is written to one (and sometimes more than one) of those categories of people. As I like to say, it's all about pronouns.

In Isaiah, for example, the pronouns representing those addressed by God (“you,” etc.) refer to Israel, not to Christians. But in Ephesians, the pronouns refer to Christians, those born again of the spirit of God, something that was not available to Old Testament believers, who lived prior to the death and resurrection of Christ. Most folks readily see that, but what about the Four Gospels? Jesus was not speaking to Christians, because there were no Christians until the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. That is the first time anyone was “born again” of God's spirit, His “incorruptible seed.” And there will be no Christians after the “Rapture.” As such, today's “Administration of the Secret” (Pentecost until the Rapture) is the most unique time in history.

As the Messiah, Jesus came to Israel, and his message was specifically to them. Certain parts of it, e.g., Luke 6:38 (“Give, and it shall be given to you, ”), are pertinent to us today, but most of what he said is directly regarding Israel, and based upon what is written in the Old Testament, which is all they could understand. That which was specifically addressed to Israel was superseded or changed in the Church Epistles, which are written specifically to Christians. “Oh,” some people say, “you're placing the words of Paul above the words of Jesus.” No, the Church Epistles are also the words of Jesus, as per Galatians 1:11. The question is: to whom was Jesus speaking?

The Church Epistles, and Ephesians to the most pronounced degree, speak of “the Secret” (mistranslated “Mystery” in most versions, if not all). The Greek word musterion meant “secret,” that is, something that can be known and communicated from one to another (as opposed to a “mystery,” which no one understands). Ephesians 3 is clear that this Secret was not even conceived of in the Old Testament or Gospels period, but hidden in God until He revealed it to Paul. The Secret was that there would be a new group of people--not Jews and not Gentiles--people who would be “born again of incorruptible seed,” whose salvation would be unconditional and assured. That is good news!

The Greek word oikonomia appears nine times, and is best translated “administration,” that is, a way in which God relates to mankind, the “rules and regulations,” if you will, for the people on earth during a particular time. Let the record show that God is very clear in His communication to people about what He expects from them in each administration. This is much like presidential administrations in the USA. When a new president is inaugurated, some things remain the same and other things change, depending upon his decisions as to how things will be during his presidency. Then people choose whether or not to adhere to the rules.

It was during the administration of the Law (Exodus 20:1—Acts 1:26) that Jesus first came to the earth to Israel. He was born, lived, died, was resurrected, instructed his disciples about the coming gift of holy spirit, and ascended to heaven. That is why he kept the ceremonial requirements of the Mosaic Law by observing the Sabbath, being baptized in water, etc.

We are now living in the fifth administration (Acts 2:1—2 Thess. 3:18 / Gentiles, Jews, & Christians), which Ephesians 3:2 calls the administration of God's grace and 3:9 calls the administration of this Secret. It began on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2) with the outpouring of the gift of holy spirit on all who believed in Jesus as the risen Lord and ends with the gathering together (“Rapture”) of the Church to meet the Lord in the air.

In the meantime, the understanding and application of many critical subjects that definitely affect the quality of one’s Christian life, and which Christians have debated for centuries, hinges on an understanding of the administrational way in which God relates to mankind—to whom is what written? For example:

Exodus 20:8-11
(Cool “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
(9) Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
(10) but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.
(11) For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

OK, pronouns. Who is the “you”? It cannot be referring to Christians, because there were no Christians then. Clearly, the Sabbath was prescribed for Israel. But isn’t there something in the body of Scripture addressed to Christians that says we should go to church on Sunday? Well, that would be primarily Romans through Thessalonians, and actually there is something about the Sabbath—once, and only once:

Colossians 2:16 and 17
(16) Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
(17) These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
In Colossians, the “you,” of course, is those born again of God’s holy spirit, for whom no such Sabbath observance is ever prescribed. In fact, the above verses are saying that there is no such thing that is relevant to the Church, the Body of Christ, Christians. Do the Church Epistles say that Christians should get together with others and sing, praise, worship, pray, minister, share financially, hear the Word, etc.? Absolutely. But there is no prescribed day—or way.
Consider this: if Christians are to keep the Sabbath, should they not keep the whole Law? In Galatians 5:3, Paul says just that, substituting circumcision as the part of the Law in question. Take a good look at verses 1-15 in order to get the whole context, and to see what Paul (writing by revelation) thinks about Christians being put under any part of the old Mosaic Law. If we are to keep the Sabbath, what about animal sacrifice to worship God? That can get costly.
The epistle to the Hebrews was one of the earlier epistles, and was written primarily to ex-Jewish Christians (which all the first Christians were), many of whom were still clinging to their old ways. In Hebrews 7-10, God works hard to show them that the Mosaic Law was no longer applicable, for example: (7:18 and 19) “The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless, (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God;” (9:9 and 10) “[The Tabernacle was] an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order;” (10:1) “The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—and not the realities themselves…” Amen.
Some Christians who do not understand the administrations in Scripture and who thus believe we should observe the Sabbath, etc., cite Matthew 5:17-19, where Jesus said that he had not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. First, to whom was he speaking? Jews. The Mosaic Law never did have anything to do with Christians. A key phrase in what Jesus said in Matthew 5:18 is that nothing would disappear from the Law “until everything is accomplished.” Jesus did accomplish everything he needed to relative to the Levitical Law, and that’s why it is no longer in effect. Today, we have no Temple, no Levites, no Aaronite priests, no animal sacrifices, etc. For both Jews and Gentiles, adhering to Romans 10:9 is the way to salvation.

In closing, perhaps you are aware that a good number of Christians today are arguing about whether “the Sabbath” should be observed by believers meeting together on Saturday or Sunday. This needless conflict would evaporate if they understood that (a) the word “sabbath” means “rest,” and (b) neither day pertains to Christians as a special day, because for believers in the Administration of the Secret, every day is special.

The argument is fruitless anyway because, based upon the consensus of Church historians, it cannot be definitely determined just when and why the early Church came to observe what we call “Sunday” (“the first day of the week”) as the day to gather together for fellowship, prayer, teaching, etc., rather than what we call “Saturday,” which was when Israel observed the Sabbath.

For the record, rest is a godly principle, so that’s what I’ll do now.

Bobbyaf (m)
Re: Saturday Or Sunday
« #41 on: June 07, 2007, 07:56 AM »

@ Thesilent1

I read your contribution and there are several things you mentioned that I have not come to grips with. You have categorised the plan of salvation into dispensations as it affected different peoples in different times.

I am of the understanding that the "grace of God hath appeared to all men" according to Paul's letter to Titus. Grace and law were and are inseperable sets of principles during the course of history up to the very present. This is really the crux of the matter. Once persons see the connection between sin, law and grace then a large part of the confusion will have evaporated.

Before sin manifested there was no need for grace, but sin could not have been defined without the principle of the  law as Paul rightly teaches in Romans 7:7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

How different was Paul from Adam and Eve in terms of being saved from sin through grace? No one is different as far as being saved from sin is concerned. So, patriarchs, jews, christians, or whoever have all sinned and come short of God's glory, and all were subject to only one brand of salvation through God's grace.

The OT doesn't say much about the moral law as it existed in principle before sin manifested, and not much was said about it either during the period of the patriarchs, except of course up to the time when Moses recieved it on Mount Sinai. Hence persons assume that there could not have been a law per se, but in reality and for all practical purposes there had to be a set of principles that would define for both Adam and Eve, and all the others who came after them, as to what constituted sin. Sin does not operate in a vacuum, and can only be committed when another set of principles are trangressed. For example why would the Genesis account relate Abel's death as the first murder if there were not a principle against taking one's life? So even though the account didn't mention it the 10 commandments in another era did. It defined it in words for the first time.

Sin as far as God was concerned was not a mere picking of the forbidden fruit. Their act of sin costs the Son of God His life. Their sinning had to do with disobeying a direct command from their Creator. Before Eve could have picked that fruit she had to think about the reasons Satan gave her for wanting to disobey a direct command. She had to have desired or coveted the forbidden fruit based on the ideas that Lucifer placed in her head. Since the fruit was forbidden her act of picking it made her a thief. She stole what was expressly forbidden. The fact that she placed Lucifer's ideas above God's brings into sharp focus the command of placing another god before the Creator God.  The fact that Adam placed his wife before God made him guilty also of placing another god before the Creator God. And that is why the apostle James reminds us that if we break one we are guilty of all. There is a common thread that runs through the divine law.

Now how does the sabbath come into the picture of all of this? From the very beginning God had sanctified the seventh day after the six days of creation to be a holy day. The word "the" in Genesis 2:3 suggests a specific day, and not just any day. According to the Genesis account God had set apart for holy use the seventh-day sabbath, because that is exactly what the word sanctified means. Now, why would God sanctify a day immediately after creation, and not include Adam and Eve to be apart of that rest, based on what was later said in Exudus 20:8-11 as to why God set aside the day from the first place. Lets see the account:

8 “ Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Have you noticed the phrase "for in six days, "? This was the reason given why God intends for His people to also rest. In other words God wants us to rest in order to celebrate with Him His act of creating. Each time His people rest, including peoples from all dispensations, in accordance with His request, we commemorate His act of Creatorship, and pay Him due recognition. Adam and Eve were the progenitors of all races. They began mankind and all those who follow them are called mankind.

Jesus comes along in the NT and tries to redefine the true purpose of the sabbath, and made a profound statement like this,
Quote
"the sabbath was made for man"
You and I kow that the word "man" is used generically to mean mankind which includes not just males, but females.

Now why would anyone limit that word mankind to the jews? Why would God from before sin manifested itself, institute the sabbath, and set it aside as a holy day, and then wait for almost 3000 years after creation to specifically hand it to a bunch of hebrews in order for them to define its purpose, and to live out those purposes?  Grin Why the hebrews? Could it be that through the hebrews God would re-inact its true purpose that was intended for all mankind, and that by entrusting them with His divine oracles they in turn would evangelise the pagan world who had lost all sight of a Creator-God? Is there a relationship betwen the creatorship of God and the sabbath?

To argue that Christ came to abolish the creation sabbath, as opposed to the other ceremonial sabbaths, and to establish another day to commemorate His resurrection is also vain and pointless. There has never been a commansd to celebrate His resurrection by utilising Sunday, nor has there ever been a command from Christ or His disciples to nullify His holy day. I challenge any one to honestly reveal one text that points to a change from sabbath to Sunday. Not one of the eight NT references to the 1st day of the week have  given any such command to keep that day in celebrating the resurrection.

My detractors know it, but are too afraid to confess it. Either that or they are still in darkness.




thesilent1 (m)
Re: Saturday Or Sunday
« #42 on: June 07, 2007, 11:37 AM »

hello!

thanks for the reply. i find its the amazing thing about our faith is that we can have very differnet opinions or revelations about something YET still be in the same boat (Christ)

i pray and i am sure we shall get there one day, either here or in the new earth! praise God either way!
bari_kade
Re: Saturday Or Sunday
« #43 on: June 07, 2007, 11:38 AM »

@Bobbyaf,

Although I'm very busy at the moment, I just had to come in here and make a few comments on your continued debate on this subject. You have been mixing up issues, and that is why you keep missing the point for that very reason. It is always safe to keep within the declarations of Scripture and not interpolate them with human reasoning (eisegesis). And here are a few of such interpolations:

Quote from: Bobbyaf on June 07, 2007, 07:56 AM
She had to have desired or coveted the forbidden fruit based on the ideas that Lucifer placed in her head. Since the fruit was forbidden her act of picking it made her a thief. She stole what was expressly forbidden.

The Bible never called Eve a "thief", nor accuse her of "stealing". Rather, the Word expressly declares her sin in simple terms as: "but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" (1 Tim. 2:14). This answers to what was recorded in Gen. 3:13 - "And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat."

Quote from: Bobbyaf on June 07, 2007, 07:56 AM
The fact that she placed Lucifer's ideas above God's brings into sharp focus the command of placing another god before the Creator God.

That again is not what Scripture declares. Eve was nowhere accused of 'placing another god before the Creator God'; and to make it sound as if that were the case is to force one's own ideas into the divine declarative. You're trying to accuse Eve of issues that even God Himself never once accused her of.

Quote from: Bobbyaf on June 07, 2007, 07:56 AM
The fact that Adam placed his wife before God made him guilty also of placing another god before the Creator God. And that is why the apostle James reminds us that if we break one we are guilty of all. There is a common thread that runs through the divine law.

Quite to the contrary, the Bible simply says that "Adam was not deceived" (1 Tim. 2:14). Adam simply disobeyed God's commandment; but that does not constitute a stretched meaning of his having placed his wife before God, or that he placed another god before the Creator God.

If one were to apply the same rule to your own case, would it be fair to say that you have placed another god before the Creator God by choosing to make exemptions to the Law of the Sabbath where the OT made no room for such exemptions? If it does not apply, why so? And if you can narrow the rule in your own case, why stretch it wider in applying it to Adam and Eve even though God did not once accuse them of what you just did?

Quote from: Bobbyaf on June 07, 2007, 07:56 AM
Now how does the sabbath come into the picture of all of this? From the very beginning God had sanctified the seventh day after the six days of creation to be a holy day. The word "the" in Genesis 2:3 suggests a specific day, and not just any day. According to the Genesis account God had set apart for holy use the seventh-day sabbath, because that is exactly what the word sanctified means. Now, why would God sanctify a day immediately after creation, and not include Adam and Eve to be apart of that rest, based on what was later said in Exudus 20:8-11 as to why God set aside the day from the first place

In very simple terms, Scripture declares what God did on the seventh day - "And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it HE had rested from all his work which God created and made." (Gen. 2:3). That should not be made to read that God expressly gave Adam and Eve a divine commandment of the Sabbath Law. I have not come across any Scripture that says God gave the Ten Commandments to Adam and Eve - and I've also repeatedly asked you to clearly proffer such a verse in Genesis. You have none for it in Genesis. Rather, God gave them only one commandment, and that was the only one they disobeyed - that of not eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 2:17).

When they sinned, neither Adam nor his wife Eve were once accused of being thieves or having stolen anything. While Eve was said to have transgressed; it is reported that Adam was NOT deceived (1 Tim. 2:14). Nowhere did God accuse them of having broken the Ten Commandments; so it is unreasonable to read one's biases into the express declarations of Scripture.

In Deuteronomy 5 when Moses reiterated the Ten Commandments, he specifically mentioned that the Law was given to Israel and to none else: "The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day." (vs. 2-3).

Again, the fact that the Sabbath Law was not given to other nations is emphasized in Deut. 4:6-8 -- "And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?"

When Moses in Exo. 20:8-11 gave the Sabbath Law to Israel, he explained its basis as pointing to God's sanctifying that Day after He had created the world. Not once did Moses hint that the Ten Commandments were given previously to anyone; nor did Moses explain any of the other 9 commandments on God's creative activity.

After the Ten Commandments were given, they were also explained in detail as to their stipulations in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. That is where the question of stipulations come into the pciture. And when you outline every precept of the Law or Ten Commandments, you will begin to see how utterly impossible it is for anyone to be justified by the Law - whether in the past, present or future (Rom. 3:28 & girl. 2:16).
bari_kade
Re: Saturday Or Sunday
« #44 on: June 07, 2007, 11:39 AM »

@Bobbyaf,

Quote from: Bobbyaf on June 07, 2007, 07:56 AM
Have you noticed the phrase "for in six days, "? This was the reason given why God intends for His people to also rest. In other words God wants us to rest in order to celebrate with Him His act of creating. Each time His people rest, including peoples from all dispensations, in accordance with His request, we commemorate His act of Creatorship, and pay Him due recognition.

As Christians, we find our rest in Jesus Christ Himself, rather than in commerating any special day. Further, not only do we recognize and celebrate God's awesome power in creation, but it is only in the New Covenant that we can address God as FATHER.

Why so? Simply because in Jesus Christ and in Him alone, we find:

   the NEW birth (James 1:18 );

   the NEW creation (2 Cor. 5:17 & girl. 6:15);

   the NEW testament (1 Cor. 11:25 & Heb. 12:24);

   the NEW man (Eph. 2:15);

   the NEW and living way (Heb. 10:20)

   the NEW Jerusalem (Rev. 3:12)

   and the NEW heavens and NEW earth (2 Pet. 3:13)

He makes all things new, my dear Bobbyaf; and to hold plod on with a Sabbath Law of the OT which you cannot defend under the power of the New Covenant is to base your hope on "that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:12); and also to miss the real purpose of the True Rest in Jesus Christ.

Quote from: Bobbyaf on June 07, 2007, 07:56 AM
Adam and Eve were the progenitors of all races. They began mankind and all those who follow them are called mankind.

Jesus comes along in the NT and tries to redefine the true purpose of the sabbath, and made a profound statement like this,

Quote
"the sabbath was made for man"
You and I kow that the word "man" is used generically to mean mankind which includes not just males, but females.

This does not automatically mean that Adam and Eve were given the Ten Commandments - we've discussed this before contextually; and you have failed to provide answers to my 17 questions in the other thread on the same topic.

Quote from: Bobbyaf on June 07, 2007, 07:56 AM
Now why would anyone limit that word mankind to the jews? Why would God from before sin manifested itself, institute the sabbath, and set it aside as a holy day, and then wait for almost 3000 years after creation to specifically hand it to a bunch of hebrews in order for them to define its purpose, and to live out those purposes?

Which simply goes to show a lazy way of reasoning. I simply ask you to please do two things:

1. Give me the verse in Genesis where God expressly gave Adam and Eve the Law of the Sabbath

2. Give me verses in Genesis to show HOW Adam and Eve understood the STIPULATIONS of the Sabbath which they did not have.

You cannot shortchange anyone here by obfuscating the context of Mark 2:27; and we have dealt with this in the other thread mentioned earlier.

It is characteristic for God to speak prophetically about an issue as if it already has happened; but then any careful reader knows that the prophetic statements were meant for the future. Just one example:

(a) When Isaiah prophesied about the birth of Christ, he used the present tense of his time as if it already had happened: "For unto us a child IS born, unto us a son IS given" (Isaiah 9:6). Yet we know that it was several centuries later that the prophecy was fulfilled and its purpose explicated.

When God declared the rest in Gen. 2:3, He did not pronounce it as a COMMANDMENT, for He was looking beyond a ritualistic observance to the time when He would send forth His Son as the only rest for mankind! It took more than 3000 years for the divine purpose of that Rest to be manifested and offered to the mankind.

Quote from: Bobbyaf on June 07, 2007, 07:56 AM
Why the hebrews? Could it be that through the hebrews God would re-inact its true purpose that was intended for all mankind, and that by entrusting them with His divine oracles they in turn would evangelise the pagan world who had lost all sight of a Creator-God? Is there a relationship betwen the creatorship of God and the sabbath?

As someone has well pointed out earlier, there were other people who knew God and worshipped Him besides the Jews. Moses' father-in-law was the priest of Midian - read Exodus 18. There were several other non-Hebrew people who still knew and worshipped God; and it is wrong to conclude that others should be called "the pagan world" just because God chose the Hebrews.

Secondly, the nation of Israel were not chosen to "evangelize" any other nation. Who were their evangelists? They were a non-proselytizing nation, who only received sojourners on the same Law that by wich they lived (Exo. 12:49 & Num. 15:16).

Quote from: Bobbyaf on June 07, 2007, 07:56 AM
To argue that Christ came to abolish the creation sabbath, as opposed to the other ceremonial sabbaths, and to establish another day to commemorate His resurrection is also vain and pointless.

What is actually vain and pointless is to predicate your assumptions on the Mosaic Law by quoting Exodus, and then rebelling against the same Law by trying to justify your excuses on so-called EXEMPTIONS! That is simply saying that you are trying to keep the Sabbath Law based on your own terms, and not on the stipulations of the same Law that were clearly given in the OT.

Quote from: Bobbyaf on June 07, 2007, 07:56 AM
There has never been a commansd to celebrate His resurrection by utilising Sunday, nor has there ever been a command from Christ or His disciples to nullify His holy day.

Is there a command from Christ to celebrate His Resurrection on Saturday? Where? How?
bari_kade
Re: Saturday Or Sunday
« #45 on: June 07, 2007, 11:41 AM »

@Bobbyaf,

Quote from: Bobbyaf on June 07, 2007, 07:56 AM
I challenge any one to honestly reveal one text that points to a change from sabbath to Sunday.

You're such a comical character. Hear you "challenge" anyone to offer answers to your weak assumptions and yet YOU ran away from the 17 challenges I offered in the other thread. Even when you tried to play tennis with history in this thread, stimulus was on hand to set your misconceptions straight.

I haven't read so many people arguing for a "CHANGE" of sabbath observation from Saturday to Sunday. What we have consistently been speaking of here is that "the Sabbath Law was NOT made for Christians" - and rather not about what day it should be observed by Christians at all. Grin

Quote from: Bobbyaf on June 07, 2007, 07:56 AM
Not one of the eight NT references to the 1st day of the week have given any such command to keep that day in celebrating the resurrection.

I expected that you would rope yourself again with this issue of the first day. I'm glad for your sake that you mentioned it, so that I could point you back to the OT about what the first day represents! Grin

Those who worship God based on the OT Law of the Sabbath have to recognize two things:

(a) their worship emphasizes creation - the OLD creation. It is for this reason that they should look unto Jesus, who brought in a better hope; so that through the Redemptive titles of His blood, we may now be called the children of God; and rightfully address God as FATHER. That is why when we celebrate the Lord's Supper, we do it in remembrance of HIM ("this do in remembrance of ME" - 1 Cor. 11:24 & 25 ). We are not here speaking of remembering a day as Moses commanded Israel ("Remember the Sabbath day" - Exo. 20:8 ). This again should remind us of Paul's caution that Christians should not be judged in respect of these festivities: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, of the sabbath days" (Col. 2:16).

(b) sabbatarians would have to strictly follow the stipulations of the Sabbath Law and not make eexcuses for any EXEMPTIONS. The Law of the Sabbath made no room for exemptions of any kind; and to fail in this is also to throw the claims of the Sabbath behind their backs!

Jesus Christ being our divine rest Himself, our hope is no longer based on the law of the old life emphasizing the seventh day. Rather, God wants us to focus on the NEW creation, which has its basis on the FIRST DAY! That is why so many dear saints of  God who argue for an OT sabbath fail to see that even in the LAW, there was a sabbath of the FIRST DAY!! Surprised? Here, let me remind you:


The SABBATH of the FIRST Day!

"And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you" (Exo. 12:16).

Whatever happened on the SEVENTH day was also applicable on the FIRST day! And remember that this was first mentioned even before the Ten Commandments were given in Exodus 20!

"In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein." (Lev. 23:7 & 8 ).

"On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein. (Lev. 23:35 & 36).

Now, carefully observe that the first day is also the eighth day as is clear above. But what is the penalty of breaking the Sabbath? To excuse it under any exemptions meritted DEATH - ""Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day." (Exo 35:2 & 3).

Now, Bobbyaf, if you have been cooking or warming your food at all on the Sabbath days, you have long been asking for the stringent penalty of breaking the Sabbath - no excuses please! "He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses" (Heb. 10:28 ).

But then, what is the point of outlining the rest of those two days - the FIRST and SEVENTH days? In simple terms, to demonstrate that God was inidcating that the True Rest was a matter of the first day! That is why you will find that, while the seventh day sabbath had elaborate stipulations and stringent punitive measures, the first day was simply a day of one loud activity" CELEBRATION!! Cheesy

The first day was a day of feasting, a day for celebrations and blowing of trumpets! Look again at the Sabbath of the First Day -

"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation". (Lev. 23:24)

As Christians, this is the celebration of a feast of deep significance:

"Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." (1 Cor. 5:7 & Cool

The Bible says in Heb. 4:8 - "For if Jesus (i.e., Joshua) had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. God had been indicating this "other day" - the FIRST DAY - as inidcative of the NEW creation and a day of victory and celebrations in His Son, Jesus Christ.

As Christians, we live to rejoice in the blessing of victory which God gave us in His Son; and we worship Him, not only as the Creator, but more so as our FATHER! We find our True Rest in God's holy Son, Jesus - and in Him and Him alone, we rejoice in hope of the fulfillment of the victory and blessing of the New creation and New Jerusalem.

The ritualistic observance of a seventh-day sabbath has no place in the glories of the NT. It is either sabbatarians keep the Sabbath Law on God's terms and make NO EXEMPTIONS for their failures; or they seek to understand the true Sabbath of the first day which we find fulfilled in Jesus Christ!
viee (f)
Re: Saturday Or Sunday
« #46 on: June 07, 2007, 11:46 AM »

i read some posts and i laugh!
why all this argument?
did God say, this first day that is monday, i am making so so?
and this last day that is sunday, i will rest?
ttah nomenclature was never used anywhere in the bible?
so whats the fuss about? Huh Smiley


question should be; how much time do you dedicate to God everyday?
and how often do we practise what we learn in the church?
how does it reflect in daily relationship with our fellow human being that we can see
as a catholic, we have our masses everyday
i am more concerned about how i can make it mass daily and be a better person than whih day i should wear my best cloth

people please!
thesilent1 (m)
Re: Saturday Or Sunday
« #47 on: June 07, 2007, 11:46 AM »

bari kade,

that was a nice contribution!

i hope we remember that we are not AGAINST each other but "iron sharpens iron" and so i am happy to see the various contributions to this

bari_kade
Re: Saturday Or Sunday
« #48 on: June 07, 2007, 11:56 AM »

@viee,

Quote from: viee on June 07, 2007, 11:46 AM
did God say, this first day that is monday, i am making so so?

Monday was not given as the first day.

Quote from: viee on June 07, 2007, 11:46 AM
as a catholic, we have our masses everyday
i am more concerned about how i can make it mass daily and be a better person than whih day i should wear my best cloth

people please!

I don't remember people complaining about 'arguments' before now; and I think it would help to simply ignore threads that you don't feel inclined to discuss. Besides, the daily mass thing of Catholicism is NOWHERE outlined in the Bible, and trying to make any mention here about it is your own way of offering your own arguments.

If you have been carefully following the discussions of this subject right from another thread on the same topic, you would shake your head or even laugh louder at what Bobbyaf called the Catholic Church - "Babylon". I hope that can put a smile on your daily mass.  Smiley
bari_kade
Re: Saturday Or Sunday
« #49 on: June 07, 2007, 12:00 PM »

@thesilent1,

Quote from: thesilent1 on June 07, 2007, 11:46 AM
i hope we remember that we are not AGAINST each other but "iron sharpens iron" and so i am happy to see the various contributions to this

I am also happy to observe the various contributions - even yours as well. I am not against anybody; and my posts were made to both debate and discuss only one thing: The Sabbath Law was not made for Christians.

Sabbatarians often argue that Christians should be seventh-day believers - and they argue for their case as best they could.

In the same way, I offer my inputs as best I can to counter that idea; because I'm persuaded that the apostles would not have repeatedly treated the issue if it really didn't matter.

Cheers.
thesilent1 (m)
Re: Saturday Or Sunday
« #50 on: June 07, 2007, 12:04 PM »

i am in YOUR camp on this issue as well.

its just nice and good to see a healthy "discussion" instead some of the nasties i have seen in some other threads.

keep it up sir!