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davidylan (m)
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David, read my entry about Moses and the hairs on the back of the camel! I gave a question mark. He did not take the opportunity of the longer life, durrrrr! Come on, david. I love you, but you are wasting time in catching up. I know you can do better than that.
the "story" of Moses and the hairs on the camels back is nothing but a story. It is no where to be found in the bible . . . i however refrain from taking the tale in the quran seriously. A quran that tells me that Aaron the brother of Moses was also the brother of Mary the mother of Jesus is not to be taken as a serious book. |
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olabowale (m)
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@Davidylan: Wee mu ruun ku ruun (Thats my ijebu for you). You are my brother in Nigerianness. Yet I don't know from a hole in the wall! David. Think, man.
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olabowale (m)
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The condition of Moses simply tells you that your Bible is not comprehensive, enough. The new kid on the block got you beat by a mile.
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olabowale (m)
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@Pligrim.1: Calling muslim idolators is more than a bit stretching the unstretchable! In all the years I have lived on this earth, both in my native lnd, Nigeria and abroad, I have never prostrated my face to an idol.
No muslims that i have seen, in Nigeria or any other place, have advocated that it is permissible to prostrate to an idol. I ask you, when you were a muslim, did you prostrate to any idol? If you did, it then becomes very clear to me why Christianity is very agreeable to you.
You can say many things about Muslims. Idol worshipping is not one of them. I have shame. Aburo, kilo de. is there no limit to your bending the truth? haba. Ki de shee?
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davidylan (m)
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The condition of Moses simply tells you that your Bible is not comprehensive, enough. The new kid on the block got you beat by a mile.
lol what nonsense! Anything the quran cannot explain you quickly say its because the bible is not comprehensive enough. What does the quran tell us about Moses's sister, wife and sons? You can say many things about Muslims. Idol worshipping is not one of them. I have shame. Aburo, kilo de. is there no limit to your bending the truth? haba. Ki de shee?
You forgot that allah was one of the original 360 idols in the kaaba? |
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olabowale (m)
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@Davidylan: Typical christian accusations. No basis, no foundation, has no proof, but got to say it.
I think you are smarter than that. Do not continue to disappoint me. Ekun. Speak the truth and let the devil that has invaded your mind be ashamed.
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davidylan (m)
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@Davidylan: Typical christian accusations. No basis, no foundation, has no proof, but got to say it.
I think you are smarter than that. Do not continue to disappoint me. Ekun. Speak the truth and let the devil that has invaded your mind be ashamed.
alhaji . . . prove me wrong sir. what does the quran say about the family and history of Moses beyond slapping the angel of death? Prove me wrong sir . . . was all-illah not one of the 360 idols in the kaaba? Sir you cry that these are baseless accusations . . . prove me wrong sir! |
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olabowale (m)
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@Davidylan: You are a christian. I told you that Jesus, in Qur'an, spoke as a babe, in the cradle to defend his mother's honor. You had a feat. You find that hard and poisonous to swallow! Yet you call him your Lord and Saviour? You have no difficulty that he cured some skin deseases, eg, leprosy, that he cured blindness and raised a man from dead. Since you are studying Medicine, which is greatly impossible to occur, a child who speaks at an unusually early age or the ability to bring a dead man alive! We are talking apples and oranges here.
If your mind can not accept that Jesus was able to speak at early age, how can you accept that he was able to bring a dead man alive? For a child to talk at an unusually early age, is not even a far fetched phenominum. Children mimick adults. It has been proven that children who have older child or children around, all the time, speaks and crawls, indeed walks much earlier than a child who does not have the same conditioning. Children are influenced by their enviroment. My younger boy spoke quite faster than his older brother.
Until you can accept that it is medically possible and spiritually not unusual, for Jesus to have spoken, in defense of his mother, regardless of whatever age, I will leave you wondering in your ignorance! You have short changed your Lord and saviour's ability to even speak. He, Jesus to me and all the Muslims, was a good son to his mother. He defended his mother. You need to copy that from him.
Pele. david. maybe I should writing all of this directly to you at davidylan,
Also you must know that the hadiths and sunnah are explanations of Qur'anic verses. Moreover, you will learn more about the particular prophet, from the sirah of that prophet in question. You already have enough from me, to last you a lifetime, if only your heart can take it.
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pilgrim.1 (f)
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@olabowale, E kare! Mo ko ni ki 'hail' yin!  @Davidylan: You are a christian. I told you that Jesus, in Qur'an, spoke as a babe, in the cradle to defend his mother's honor. You had a feat. You find that hard and poisonous to swallow! Yet you call him your Lord and Saviour? You have no difficulty that he cured some skin deseases, eg, leprosy, that he cured blindness and raised a man from dead. Since you are studying Medicine, which is greatly impossible to occur, a child who speaks at an unusually early age or the ability to bring a dead man alive! We are talking apples and oranges here.
If your mind can not accept that Jesus was able to speak at early age, how can you accept that he was able to bring a dead man alive? For a child to talk at an unusually early age, is not even a far fetched phenominum. Children mimick adults. It has been proven that children who have older child or children around, all the time, speaks and crawls, indeed walks much earlier than a child who does not have the same conditioning. Children are influenced by their enviroment. My younger boy spoke quite faster than his older brother.
Until you can accept that it is medically possible and spiritually not unusual, for Jesus to have spoken, in defense of his mother, regardless of whatever age, I will leave you wondering in your ignorance! You have short changed your Lord and saviour's ability to even speak. He, Jesus to me and all the Muslims, was a good son to his mother. He defended his mother. You need to copy that from him.
Pele. david. maybe I should writing all of this directly to you at davidylan,
Also you must know that the hadiths and sunnah are explanations of Qur'anic verses. Moreover, you will learn more about the particular prophet, from the sirah of that prophet in question. You already have enough from me, to last you a lifetime, if only your heart can take it.
Hehehe. . . Oga mi, please how does Jesus' speaking in the cradle translate into Muhammad's tales of Moses slapping the angel of death severely and spoiling one of his eyes?!? |
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pilgrim.1 (f)
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@olabowale, @Pligrim.1: Calling muslim idolators is more than a bit stretching the unstretchable! In all the years I have lived on this earth, both in my native lnd, Nigeria and abroad, I have never prostrated my face to an idol.
No muslims that i have seen, in Nigeria or any other place, have advocated that it is permissible to prostrate to an idol. I ask you, when you were a muslim, did you prostrate to any idol? If you did, it then becomes very clear to me why Christianity is very agreeable to you.
You can say many things about Muslims. Idol worshipping is not one of them. I have shame. Aburo, kilo de. is there no limit to your bending the truth? haba. Ki de shee?
I understand how you feel; and I would not deliberately try to bend your neck against your persuasions. However, I am yet to see anyone convincingly offer a good exposing as to WHY Muhammad venerated that Black Stone without a divine inunction from Allah - knowing well enough that his companion clearly stated that it was merely as a show off to PAGANS! |
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olabowale (m)
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@Pligrim.1: I sometime have to laugh aloud, when I read your post. Davidylan and Nwando are in this group as well.I sent you I'm, you have not responded. Yet, close to 2 weeks now, you have stated you will connect with me. Is this for real, or in a more gentle way, you are actually saying you will not connect? Odara o.
Now, you were a muslim once. No one ever told you about Adam and Hawa (your Eve), his wife, descending from heavens to the earth? You need to know that the Black stone, used to be pure which as milk.
Adam built the same Kaaba, the first time. Kaaba has a similar building in the seventh heaven. It is called Baitul Maamuur. Thats where Muhammad (as) saw his father, Ibrahiim (as), who was resting with his back on this structure, in a leaning posture. That was the Isra wa Miraj journey of Muhammad.
The Black stone, in its pure milky white state was sent from heaven as part of Adam's construction materials. During the flood of Nuuh (Noah) (as), the kaaba was destroyed, but the Stone was raised to heaven, and only returned, when Ibrahiim and his first son, (as to both father and son), who could ever be qualified as the only son, were rebuilding this structure. The foundation line was shown to them. They collected the building materials. They constructed the building, along with placing the stone, where it is today. This corner is where tawaf starts, when you circumvulate the Kaaba. You should read books about this and other concerns you may have in Islam.
InshaAllah, your heart will be able to take these things. These are simple things about saving our souls. Muhammad, was commanded to follow the tradition of Ibrahiim, the upright in believe, know never associated anything with his Lord.
Tell me, is there any religion that observe any thing in remembrance of this noble father in faith of the Oneness of God, apart from Islam?
Even the polytheists of Makka rebuilt the structure, they were very careful not use any usury money in its construction.
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davidylan (m)
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@Pligrim.1: I sometime have to laugh aloud, when I read your post. Davidylan and Nwando are in this group as well.I sent you I'm, you have not responded. Yet, close to 2 weeks now, you have stated you will connect with me. Is this for real, or in a more gentle way, you are actually saying you will not connect? Odara o.
Now, you were a muslim once. No one ever told you about Adam and Hawa (your Eve), his wife, descending from heavens to the earth? You need to know that the Black stone, used to be pure which as milk.
Adam built the same Kaaba, the first time. Kaaba has a similar building in the seventh heaven. It is called Baitul Maamuur. Thats where Muhammad (as) saw his father, Ibrahiim (as), who was resting with his back on this structure, in a leaning posture. That was the Isra wa Miraj journey of Muhammad.
The Black stone, in its pure milky white state was sent from heaven as part of Adam's construction materials. During the flood of Nuuh (Noah) (as), the kaaba was destroyed, but the Stone was raised to heaven, and only returned, when Ibrahiim and his first son, (as to both father and son), who could ever be qualified as the only son, were rebuilding this structure. The foundation line was shown to them. They collected the building materials. They constructed the building, along with placing the stone, where it is today. This corner is where tawaf starts, when you circumvulate the Kaaba. You should read books about this and other concerns you may have in Islam.
InshaAllah, your heart will be able to take these things. These are simple things about saving our souls. Muhammad, was commanded to follow the tradition of Ibrahiim, the upright in believe, know never associated anything with his Lord.
Tell me, is there any religion that observe any thing in remembrance of this noble father in faith of the Oneness of God, apart from Islam?
Even the polytheists of Makka rebuilt the structure, they were very careful not use any usury money in its construction.
All these fairy tales! Alhaji and you believe all these faabu? How can Ishmael, the son of a slave, be the only one qualified to be Abraham's only son? what then do we call the son of the legitimate wife? His only slave? |
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pilgrim.1 (f)
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@olabowale, @Pligrim.1: I sometime have to laugh aloud, when I read your post. Davidylan and Nwando are in this group as well.I sent you I'm, you have not responded. Yet, close to 2 weeks now, you have stated you will connect with me. Is this for real, or in a more gentle way, you are actually saying you will not connect? Odara o.
Now, you were a muslim once. No one ever told you about Adam and Hawa (your Eve), his wife, descending from heavens to the earth? You need to know that the Black stone, used to be pure which as milk.
Adam built the same Kaaba, the first time. Kaaba has a similar building in the seventh heaven. It is called Baitul Maamuur. Thats where Muhammad (as) saw his father, Ibrahiim (as), who was resting with his back on this structure, in a leaning posture. That was the Isra wa Miraj journey of Muhammad.
The Black stone, in its pure milky white state was sent from heaven as part of Adam's construction materials. During the flood of Nuuh (Noah) (as), the kaaba was destroyed, but the Stone was raised to heaven, and only returned, when Ibrahiim and his first son, (as to both father and son), who could ever be qualified as the only son, were rebuilding this structure. The foundation line was shown to them. They collected the building materials. They constructed the building, along with placing the stone, where it is today. This corner is where tawaf starts, when you circumvulate the Kaaba. You should read books about this and other concerns you may have in Islam.
InshaAllah, your heart will be able to take these things. These are simple things about saving our souls. Muhammad, was commanded to follow the tradition of Ibrahiim, the upright in believe, know never associated anything with his Lord.
Tell me, is there any religion that observe any thing in remembrance of this noble father in faith of the Oneness of God, apart from Islam?
Even the polytheists of Makka rebuilt the structure, they were very careful not use any usury money in its construction. Lol. . . I don't see anything you have said that stands as reason for the black stone imbroglio in Islam. Infact you, you have only managed to offer me more of Muhammad's tales, from the "pure milky white" colour to its incoherence of its being a black stone! Anyhow, I'D like to reposte another response that may help you sort out the issue here that have proven a dilemma for Muslims about the "milky white stone" turned BLACK:
( http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-52646.0.html#msg1102465) @nossycheek,
Right. That's another issue that I've been considering; but there again you anticipated me.
What I don't get is this: If the black stone of the Kaaba has no power to do either good nor evil, what is the idea behind Muhammad's having kissed it? Even further, what can we deduce from the reaction of some of his companions who didn't see any sense in following the example of Muhammad, but only did so because he did it??
Sample the following traditions:
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Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26; #673:
|| Narrated Salim that his father said: I saw Allah's Apostle arriving at Mecca; he kissed the Black Stone Corner first while doing Tawaf and did ramal in the first three rounds of the seven rounds (of Tawaf).
Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26; #667:
|| Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia: 'Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."
Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26; #679:
|| Narrated Zaid bin Aslam that his father said: "I saw 'Umar bin Al-Khattab kissing the Black Stone and he then said, (to it) 'Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you, (stone) I would not have kissed you.' "
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 10; #1813:
|| Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A person who performs umrah should shout talbiyah till he touches the Black Stone.
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Now, it bothers me that when Muslims know the Black Stone can neither do good nor harm anyone, they still take a pilgrimage to it, for no other reason than that Muhammad kissed it. The question that follows (which has been asked before) is:
Was Muhammad sent by the God revealed to the prophets of the Old Testament?? Nevermind the political answer offered to circle round this; but then, a second question must then be asked: Why is there no mention of the Black Stone in the worship of the Jews at all??
For Muslims who claim that it is the same God who sent Muhammad, may I ask if they have taken a look at what God said regarding bowing down to a stone they way Muhammad made the Black Stone the center of his worship? Here are a few:
Lev. 26:1 - "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God."
Deut. 27:15 - "Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen."
Act 17:29 - ". . . we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device."
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When one carefully reads about the warning to not "set up any image of stone" (Lev. 26:1), nor to "put it in a secret place" (Deut. 27:15), are we then speaking about the same issues here that brings about a contrasted worship devoted to the secret place of "between the two corners (i.e. the black stone and the Yemenite corner)" in Islam? (see Sahih Bukhari Vol. 5, Book 59; #557).
Please, answers.
Oga olabowale, pardon my laziness, but I've a lot to do for the next few days. So, instead of trying to engage in long thesis to every line of your complaints about the "milky" stone turned "black", I just simply reposted the above. Cheers.  |
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olabowale (m)
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@Pligrim.1: It is Friday, already. I will have less time to answer, and therefore deferring my effort, till Saturday and Sunday. However, in the Qur'an, when Allah told the community of the Angels, that He will create a viceroy on earth. They not knowing everything, were terrible concerned, based previously created being, which shed much blood.
God responded to their concern, by simply saying that He knows the things that are unknown to the Angels. Iblis, before he was named Saitan, was from that previously created earthly being. Iblis was at the time of the creation of our father, even though not an angel, but a Jinn, in the community of the Angels. They were commanded to bow down to Adam. All the Angels bow down, obeying the command of Allah. Iblis did not bow down. He refused to obey Allah.
The reason I tell you this story, which you will find in many surah of the Qur'an, Baqarah, Kahf, etc, are that Saitan is not a an angel as the christians believed. And relevant to your query, is that God is the only One, one should bow down to. But in this special case, of one time event, He made it as a sign of obedience to Him, for all of the Angels and Iblis, to bow to Adam. All the angels did, but Iblis refused. This was his starting point to spiral downfall.
He showed arrogance in his answer to Allah when he was asked, why he refused to bow. Further, he later engineered the disobedience of Adam and his wife Hawa, the only reason they were removed from Paradise and sent to the earth.
If Allah, the Almighty asked Adam and then later Ibrahiim, (as to both of them), to use the blackstone, even in its Milky white state, and venerated it. And these noble men obeyed their Lord, where is the problem when Muhammad was commanded to do the same? Should he refused and say no? Please think and be reasonable in your thinking!
It was the will of Allah to arrange Islam, for completion the way He was with Muhammad (as). Just because the Jews, truly, children of Israel did not record it in their current books, is this a guaranty that it was not part of the their earlier rituals/ Please remember that Ibrahiim was the one that proclaim hajj to all mankind. Kaaba is central to hajj. Who tells you that the previous prophets, Isiaq, Yaqoub, even Daud, and his son, Sulaiman (as, to all), did not perform Hajj? Why do you raise unnecessary questions and irrelevant concerns?
I am not a scholar of Islam persee but God gives wisdom to respond, always.
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olabowale (m)
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@Pligrim.1: You are quick to ask one question after another. But I have asked you to explain the Three expected prophets, that the children of Israel asked of John the Baptist. Please explain the three personalities to me by names: Also, you must explain to me, how John the Baptist said he was none of the three, yet Jesus said John was Elisha? Was this a miscommunication between these two noble prophets, or the fault should be laid at the foot of the Bible writers?
Again, God Allah Almighty, will give me the answer to all your concerns.
Is your YIM only for decoration, why haven't you check the messages I left and respond?
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olabowale (m)
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@davidylan: If I believe in the faabu, you lap up even graeter faabus. You should resolve your issue before coming to investigate my condition.
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cgift (m)
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Olabo,
It is a shame that you cannot simply tell your self the truth. Which came first? Bible or Quran? Is it not the Bible? We should at least have a perfect correlation between the two especially as it relats to the Torah (the Old Testament). If the bible says that Satan is a fallen angel and that paradise was here on earth (not that it was somewhere else where Adam and Eve were before thy were kicked out and sent to the earth), why do you have differing accounts in your quran?
Was Mohammad not supposed to have given the exact narration of names and location and events with flawless accuracy? Why did he paint different pictures of particularly striking events. It only shows his inability to understand and paraphrase issues without getting thm mixed up!
If in particular he claimed he was to bring about continuity, why do we have differing opinions? Or is it part of the 'corruption' of the bible that has made these same stories we have in your quran to be differnet from the bible's?
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olabowale (m)
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@cgift: Which comes first, Elementary school/Primary school or Post graduate school? Thats your answer.
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olabowale (m)
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@cgift: Which comes first, Elementary school/Primary school or Post graduate school? Thats your answer. Go ask Khaled of answering Islam, before you come back.
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pilgrim.1 (f)
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@olabowale, @Pligrim.1: You are quick to ask one question after another. But I have asked you to explain the Three expected prophets, that the children of Israel asked of John the Baptist. Please explain the three personalities to me by names: Also, you must explain to me, how John the Baptist said he was none of the three, yet Jesus said John was Elisha? Was this a miscommunication between these two noble prophets, or the fault should be laid at the foot of the Bible writers? How many times have we been through that same thing? Go through the threads where I left you answers and pick out the concerns you haven't grasped from them - and then we can move on from there. Again, God Allah Almighty, will give me the answer to all your concerns. Amin. Make we dey see. Is your YIM only for decoration, why haven't you check the messages I left and respond?
Lol. . . you won't believe it, but I haven't seen anything of what you sent.  |
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pilgrim.1 (f)
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@cgift: Which comes first, Elementary school/Primary school or Post graduate school? Thats your answer. Go ask Khaled of answering Islam, before you come back.
And what was that supposed to have illustrated? |
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pilgrim.1 (f)
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@olabowale, I trust that your Friday will be good, and I wish you the best in the weekend. The reason I tell you this story, which you will find in many surah of the Qur'an, Baqarah, Kahf, etc, are that Saitan is not a an angel as the christians believed. I understand that as a Muslim it is important to you that the Qur'an defines your belief. However, it is only fair to understand that the Qur'an does not define the Biblical faiths (Judaism and Christianity); so whatever are the arguments that Muslims advance about Satan (or any other subject for that matter), it does not therefore mean that the Biblical faiths must have got it wrong merely on the conjectures or supposals of the Qur'an. Let us remember that Muhammad's claim was that the Qur'an was given to confirm the Torah and Injil (the "Bible"), and not the other way round (Qur'an 3:3 and 10:37). Therefore, the Qur'an would be a huge failure if it deviates at any instance from the testimony of the Bible which it was supposed to "confirm", as the prophet Isaiah proclaimed: Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. It is interesting to note that Muhammad rejected the testimony of the prophet Isaiah (although he claimed that Muslims believe in all the prophets). There is not the slightest hint anywhere that Muhammad acknowledged the prophecies of Isaiah as authentic - yet, this Jewish prophet shared divine insights about the operations of diabolical powers that dwarf Muhammad's presumptions. And relevant to your query, is that God is the only One, one should bow down to. But in this special case, of one time event, He made it as a sign of obedience to Him, for all of the Angels and Iblis, to bow to Adam. All the angels did, but Iblis refused. This was his starting point to spiral downfall. This is yet another huge issue about worship in Islam. Divine worship that is meant to God alone and which is offered to any creature at any time is nothing less than idolatry. We know that idolatry is an abomination before God - and there is no instance in the history of creation where God would have occasioned such as you described there. Even when you read the verse that directly narrates the scenario in the Qur'an, one would wonder that Muslim translators have stood limp and embarrassed as to the true import of Sura 2 v 34. Personally, I would not want to believe that 'Allah' (God) had asked the angels to " worship" Adam; but that is what has been suggested by Sale who renders that verse as: "And when we said unto the angels, worship Adam; they [all] worshipped [him], except Eblis [who] refused, and was puffed up with pride, and became of the [number of] unbelievers." Of course, Rodwell also indicates the same thing; but it is really remarkable that Sale being a Muslim would have agreed to the same thing - and as a Muslim, you have only confirmed that 'Allah' was asking the angels as a special "one time event" to 'bow down' (in worship) to Adam! I dare to say that Muhammad's conjectures about Iblis and the angels bowing down to Adam was swallowed hook, line and sinker by Muslims who had closed their hearts to the meaning of true and pure divine worship. |
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pilgrim.1 (f)
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@olabowale, If Allah, the Almighty asked Adam and then later Ibrahiim, (as to both of them), to use the blackstone, even in its Milky white state, and venerated it. And these noble men obeyed their Lord, where is the problem when Muhammad was commanded to do the same? Should he refused and say no? Please think and be reasonable in your thinking! First, Muhammad was NOT commanded to do "the same" - for there is no indication that 'Allah' ever asked him to venerate the black stone! I've asked Muslims the very same question again and again: please show us where in the Qur'an it was stated that 'Allah' commanded Muhammad to venerate the "black stone" - even when his own companion knew that Muhammad's actions were merely a matter of showing off to the PAGANS! Second, the Islamic tales of Adam and Abraham (Ibrahim) ever venerating a "black stone" hugely contradict the belief and worship in their lives. There is no record, for instance, of Abraham ever venerating any stone anywhere - and what is more, such an act of venerating stones is contradictory to the revelation that Abraham had of his worship to God. It was the will of Allah to arrange Islam, for completion the way He was with Muhammad (as). When did Islam begin? Did it begin with Muhammad or with the Biblical prophets? Just because the Jews, truly, children of Israel did not record it in their current books, is this a guaranty that it was not part of the their earlier rituals/ First, you have hugely contradicted yourself here. The Jews did not record what was their personal opinions in Scripture, and they could not have personally chosen to erase the saga of the veneration of a "black stone" if there ever was one! Besides, 'Allah' never referred to the Torah of the Jews as the work of their own hands! If anything at all, the same 'Allah' boldly stated that he personally wrote the Torah before giving it to Moses: Sura 7:145 And WE wrote for him upon the Tablets about everything an admonition and an explanation of all things. `So hold them fast and bid thy people follow the best thereof. Soon shall I show you the abode of the transgressors.' Sura 6:154 Again, We gave the Scripture unto Moses, complete for him who would do good, an explanation of all things, a guidance and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord Sura 21:105 And verily we have written in the Scripture, after the Reminder: My righteous slaves will inherit the earth. Sura 32:23 We verily gave Moses the Scripture; so be not ye in doubt of his receiving it; and We appointed it a guidance for the Children of Israel. I constantly have to remind Muslims to wake up from the fallacies of Muhammad's tales and look into the Qur'an to see his conjectures which he pretended as "revelations" from 'Allah'! Please remember that Ibrahiim was the one that proclaim hajj to all mankind. Kaaba is central to hajj. That is another of Muhammad's conjectures - Abraham did not proclaim any hajj to all mankind; nor was he associated with the Kaaba. Muhammad chose the Kaaba (which was a central rendevous of idol worship) and manufactured a storyline to force-fit Adam, Abraham and others into its history. Who tells you that the previous prophets, Isiaq, Yaqoub, even Daud, and his son, Sulaiman (as, to all), did not perform Hajj? Why do you raise unnecessary questions and irrelevant concerns? My questions are not unnecessary or irrelevant. I consistently offer challenges to Muslims to help them think isues through and proffer honest answers that are not stage-managed and bent awkwardly to fit into Muhammad's supposals. None of the prophets you mentioned there were ever associated with Islam or Hajj - and that was why I asked you directly: "When did Islam begin? Did it begin with Muhammad or with the Biblical prophets?" If Islam began with Muhammad, how do you manufacture a story to date the pre-Islamic prophets into what emerged AFTER they had all died? I am not a scholar of Islam persee but God gives wisdom to respond, always. I understand - and the wisdom that God gives is not one that should leave Muslims scratching their heads for answers where they cannot coherently substantiate the conjectures of Muhammad. ♪ Enjoy! |
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combatant
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@pilgrim1. Besides, 'Allah' never referred to the Torah of the Jews as the work of their own hands! Huh If anything at all, the same 'Allah' boldly stated that he personally wrote the Torah before giving it to Moses: Sura 7:145
And WE wrote for him upon the Tablets about everything
an admonition and an explanation of all things.
`So hold them fast and bid thy people follow the best thereof.
Soon shall I show you the abode of the transgressors.' You are getting yourself confused.
Sura 6:154
Again, We gave the Scripture unto Moses, complete for him
who would do good, an explanation of all things, a guidance
and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord Still confusing yourself. Sura 21:105
And verily we have written in the Scripture,
after the Reminder: My righteous slaves will inherit the earth. Same as above. Sura 32:23
We verily gave Moses the Scripture;
so be not ye in doubt of his receiving it; and
We appointed it a guidance for the Children of Israel. Same confusion here but we read that Moses was given a revelation I constantly have to remind Muslims to wake up from the fallacies of Muhammad's tales and look into the Qur'an to see his conjectures which he pretended as "revelations" from 'Allah'! Having read your above quotation, Muslims believe that Allah gave Moses a revelation which he used in guiding the Israelite but after his demise, the scripture was distorted and couldnt be said to be same as the one given to Moses. Let me start from the bible but before I start, can you please beat your chest to it that the OT is the same as the revelation given to Moses? Let me start from your bible to see if the scripture is still in its orginal form Jeremiah 8 v 8: How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. Now another journey into the Holy Quran "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)" Let us go into the Quran and read where they distorted the scripture after Moses had gone:Quran 5v13: But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others). Hope you understand? Let us read another verse on the distortion of the scripture: Quran 5v41:O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment." Now read this please: Quran 5 v 15: O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you,
expounding unto you much of that which ye used to hide in the Scripture,
and forgiving much. now hath come unto you light from Allah and plain
ScriptureQuran 3 v 64; Say (O Muhammad SAW): " O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship
none but Allah, and that we associate no partners with Him,
and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allah.
Then, if they turn away,say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims.")Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs,evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account.So if they dispute with you (Muhammad SAW)) (say: "I have submitted myself to Allah (in Islam), and (so have) those who follow me. Quran 3 v 19-20: And say to those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and to those who are illiterates (Arab pagans)
"Do you (also) submit yourselves (to Allah in Islam)?" If they do, they are rightly guided; but if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message; and Allah is All-Seer of (His ) slaves) Quran 5 v 77: Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians):
Exceed not the limits in your religion (by believing in something) other than the truth
and do not follow the vain desires of people who went astray in times gone by,
and who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the Right Path.Quran 3v79-80: It is not (possible) for any human being to whom Allah has given the Book and Al-Hukma (the knowledge and understanding of the laws of religion, etc.) and Prophethood to say to the people: "Be my worshippers rather than Allah's." On the contrary (he would say): "Be you Rabbaniyun (learned men of religion who practise what they know and also preach others), because you are teaching the Book, and you are studying it. Nor would he order you to take angels and Prophets for lords (gods). Would he order you to disbelieve after you have submitted to Allah's Will?) Quran 3 v 199: And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in Allah and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before Allah. They do not sell the Verses of Allah for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, Allah is Swift in account)Quran 5v83-86: (And when they (Christians) listen to what has been sent down to the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of the truth they have recognised. They say: "Our Lord! We believe; so write us down among the witnesses.And why should we not believe in Allah and in that which has come to us of the truth (Islamic Monotheism)? And we wish that our Lord will admit us (in Paradise on the Day of Resurrection) along with the righteous people (Prophet Muhammad SAW and his Companions radhiallahu'anhu)." So because of what they said, Allah rewarded them Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise), they will abide therein forever. Such is the reward of good-doers.But those who disbelieved and belied Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), they shall be the dwellers of the (Hell) Fire) A word is enough for the wise Have a lovely day. |
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davidylan (m)
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Combatant . . . you can't use the quran to judge the Holy Scriptures. The quran did not appear until more than 4000 years after Moses penned down the torah.
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olabowale (m)
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@Davidylan: Aburo. Am going to change ya name to Daud. Can I, Uh?
If Moses did not receive any revelation, What the heck do you call the the 10 Commandment!? (By the way heck is not a bad word. I do not want anyone to get crazy with me. David knows that am his buddy. LOL)
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olabowale (m)
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@Nwando: I was talking to my attorney, who is also a Nigerian and a Muslim, in New York. He knows your guy, Ali Sina, an Iranian. They have had a lot of correspondences. Ali Sina, is very paranoid and very subjective in his view points. Mustapha Ndanusa, got under his skin and he started calling him all sort of names! Thats the quality of this hero of yours.
Today, on yahoo news, Mr. Robert Roy, a Senior Science Writer for Space.com, penned a piece titled, 'Incredible Comet bigger than the sun.' Really, as I have noted, in my entry to show how naive Ali Sina is about Allah's expressed power in the Qur'an, creation and knowledge are still is continuing. What was Ph. D materials 200 years are now Bsc materials, at best.
Ali Sina, has stopped learning. Even for the fun of learning. he thinks that knowlege is complete by now, in the history of mankind. Does he think that nothing will be discovered, as a useful tool for knowledge, before Jesus comes back? Today, there is something called light/photodynamic therapy in medicine. Who could have thought of it, a mere 50 years ago?
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davidylan (m)
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@Davidylan: Aburo. Am going to change ya name to Daud. Can I, Uh?
Alhaji mi. . . i rather go with the biblical name David. I don't have any affiliation with arabs but if it will make you happy then go ahead. If Moses did not receive any revelation, What the heck do you call the the 10 Commandment!? (By the way heck is not a bad word. I do not want anyone to get crazy with me. David knows that am his buddy. LOL)
Moses was given the 10 commandments. . . very true sir. But when muslims refer to "giving moses revelations" they mean the entire books of Genesis to Deuteronomy which is factually incorrect. as per the "heck", no shaking alhaji. We know ourselves. |
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olabowale (m)
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@Davidylan: All you have to do to understand what the muslim is saying is this:The Qur'an says that the Torah of Moses is already corrupted as you have it in your Bible. The Muslims believe the totality of Qur'an. Just to agitate you a little bit, what will you call the dialogue of God with Moses, starting from the burning bush, which was the first time God connected with Moses, and all the way to when Pharaoh and his army drowned in the sea? What would you call the speech of God to Moses? Revelations or not?
What then is revelation to you?
Since you are pure 100% Yoruba male, what is Yoruba pronounciation of your name? You meet me have way on this one. You are not an oyinbo. Omo Oduduwa nie. Ile karo o jire loti wa.
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davidylan (m)
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@Davidylan: All you have to do to understand what the muslim is saying is this:The Qur'an says that the Torah of Moses is already corrupted as you have it in your Bible. The Muslims believe the totality of Qur'an.
What if the Sango "holy" book came out today and claimed the quran was corrupted? Would you accept it WITHOUT adequate proof? The quran makes several unfounded allegations. . . the bible being corrupt is one. The bible had been in existence thousands of years before the quran ever saw the light of day, how then can the quran claim the bible is corrupted? Did mohammed see the earliest copy of the book of Genesis 4000 years ago? Muslims may believe the entire quran but they also need to be able to ask rational questions. For the quran to claim the bible is corrupt without being able to show us the very original bible allah claimed to have revealed makes allah very unreliable. Just to agitate you a little bit, what will you call the dialogue of God with Moses, starting from the burning bush, which was the first time God connected with Moses, and all the way to when Pharaoh and his army drowned in the sea? What would you call the speech of God to Moses? Revelations or not?
What then is revelation to you?
So if your father talks to you he is "revealing" a torah to you? Since you are pure 100% Yoruba male, what is Yoruba pronounciation of your name? You meet me have way on this one. You are not an oyinbo. Omo Oduduwa nie. Ile karo o jire loti wa.
Alhaji, indeed the name "David" is a biblical name and has nothing to do with being white. Just as christianity is not the exclusive preserve of white folks. And my first name is indeed david. |
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olabowale (m)
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david, I beg make you answer them question. O boy, don take style waka. Wakaabout don take him cover off long time.
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davidylan (m)
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david, I beg make you answer them question. O boy, don take style waka. Wakaabout don take him cover off long time.
alhaji which questions? You people are forever putting up phantom questions while avoiding every single one we put up. |
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