proo212:

Bashy-Demy, you've come to this thread to say the same things we've been discussing in the other thread. Nothing changes, you need to give up looking for Mohammed in the bible. You will never find him. I understand your prophet asked you to ask the people of the book what was revealed before but he isn't in the bible.

If so there is no case for your prophet and you need to seek the truth in the word of God, The Bible and get to know the man behind the book. Not as you've always seen him as a.mere prophet but as the begotten Son of God who died for your sins, "That Prophet" you've been searching for in Deutoronomy 18.

Good night and God bless. The choice is entirely yours.

I guess it was only my comment you read, But never read the one of proo212 and plappville. They brought back the topic on here and i have to proof them wrong, Well about the issue of Deut 18 show me where did the name of Jesus mention there. And also show me how Jesus fit in that category, Ahmed Deedat gave a better explanation how Jesus cannot fit in that category, But people like you will turn blind eyes to that and still prooving yourself wrong. Oma she oooo

I guess it was only my comment you read, But never read the one of proo212 and plappville. They brought back the topic on here and i have to proof them wrong, Well about the issue of Deut 18 show me where did the name of Jesus mention there. And also show me how Jesus fit in that category, Ahmed Deedat gave a better explanation how Jesus cannot fit in that category, But people like you will turn blind eyes to that and still prooving yourself wrong. Oma she oooo

Now your line is was the name of Jesus mentioned? What does Acts 3 say? Acts 3 puts Jesus as that Prophet. Matthew 21 and John 6 also put Jesus Christ as that Prophet. The evidence is indisputable but you guys refuse blindly to accept it.

If you are struggling with English, I suggest you use Yoruba Bible and I sincerely mean no insult by this statement. But using your own logic, where did the name of mohammed come up here? One level of reasoning for koran and another level of reasoning for the Bible. Boy I tire for these muslims.

Sadly Ahmed Deedat is long gone so he cannot defend his name but the apologists that are still around using the same circular reasoning HAVE BEEN EXPOSED time and time again.

^^^Bro Acts 3 verse what and also to the rest so i can read and proof you wrong,

Read the whole of Acts 3 but focus on verse 22 till the end. I have pasted the 21st century King James Version for proof.

22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, `A Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you from your brethren, like unto me; Him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever He shall say unto you.
23And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be destroyed from among the people.'   
24Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those who follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25Ye are the children of the prophets and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, `And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.'
26Unto you first, God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him to bless you in turning every one of you away from his iniquities."

Deut 18:15-22 that you posted earlier

15"The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, from thy brethren, like unto me. Unto Him ye shall hearken,
16according to all that thou desired of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, `Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.'
17And the LORD said unto me: `They have well spoken that which they have spoken.   
18I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren like unto thee, and will put My words in His mouth; and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command Him.   
19And it shall come to pass that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which He shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.   
20But the prophet who shall presume to speak a word in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or who shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.'
21And if thou say in thine heart, `How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?'--
22when a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously; thou shalt not be afraid of him.

proo212:

Read the whole of Acts 3 but focus on verse 22 till the end. I have pasted the 21st century King James Version for proof.

22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, `A Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you from your brethren, like unto me; Him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever He shall say unto you.
23And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be destroyed from among the people.'   
24Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those who follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25Ye are the children of the prophets and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, `And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.'
26Unto you first, God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him to bless you in turning every one of you away from his iniquities."

Now read very well and tell me where Jesus fit in the prophet we are expecting.I have few Questions for you,
1, According to the bible, Is Jesus Prophet, Son of God, of god
2, According Verse 26 it says, Unto you First,God raised up his son Jesus, Sent him to bless you, Did you know what that mean? i will explain. Actually the prophet is coming but God raise up his son unto you first. Sent him to bless you, I believe this is alone if a proof that Jesus cannot be the Prophet cos if he happen to be the prophet why will God have to first raised him and prior to the Prophet, I think you need to sit down and read that verse very well, God Bless you

Oh My Goodness! Bashy Demy just acknowledged Jesus to be the Son of God. Halleluyah!

bashy_demy:

Now read very well and tell me where Jesus fit in the prophet we are expecting.I have few Questions for you,
1,  According to the bible,  Is Jesus Prophet, Son of God, of god
2, According Verse 26 it says,  Unto you First,God raised up his Son Jesus, Sent him to bless you,  Did you know what that mean? i will explain. Actually the prophet is coming but God raise up his son unto you first. Sent him to bless you, I believe this is alone if a proof that Jesus cannot be the Prophet cos if he happen to be the prophet why will God have to first raised him and prior to the Prophet,  I think you need to sit down and read that verse very well,  God Bless you

What it means is that they were the first to witness that "Prophet" that God promised to raise for them "His Son Jesus ". I really do not understand why we are still debating this.

But since you guys claim Deut 18 and we have constantly debunked the claim to mean Jesus, look at verse 24, it says Yea, all the prophets from Samuel and those who followed after, as many as have spoke, have likewise foretold these days.

What it means from that text is that all other prophets that God raised after Moses has foretold of what was happening. In all honesty, I don't know how else you want to spin this chapter to mean Mohammed because from your arguments you only claim the prophesy of Moses but it says even Samuel and all the other prophets prophesied what was happening.

Samuel and Ezekiel and the like did not prophesy Mohammed, even your Ahmed Deedat that is supposed to be your authority in such issues did not see this.

You and I know Isaiah prophesied, Jesus' death and resurrection and this event in Acts 3 took place after the crucifixion and resurrection. What more do you want,

Officially I am signing out of this post. The evidence is overwhelming, the scriptures have backed up the prophecies and If that is enough for you to see the truth and start asking questions about the untruths in the quran or with your scholars, that is entirely your problem. At the end of time we will give account.

proo212:

Oh My Goodness! Bashy Demy just acknowledged Jesus to be the Son of God. Halleluyah!

What it means is that they were the first to witness that "Prophet" that God promised to raise for them "His Son Jesus ". I really do not understand why we are still debating this.

Hey you are dealing with an educated man boi. Who were the first to witness the coming of the prophet? are those people who Moses is talking then alive when Jesus came? What that verse said is the God first raised Jesus, and send him to bless them so if you are confuse maybe you need to cool down and read more to understand,

Second give me proof of the Samuel and Ezekiel. Dint they have verses for them?

and Secondly can you explain this verse for me

Deuteronomy 33:1-2:

Deuteronomy 33
1And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.

2And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.


Just need an explanation oooo no insult ,

Hello there Bashy-Demy, you called me out of retirement.


Firstly it says the LORD and that is what it is, The LORD. We can argue that Bible scholars realised the 10,000 was impractical from the translation in many versions of the bible especially KJV and changed it in NIV version. But look at scholarship, it is said that the King James translation is wrong because the hebrew word RBBH does not mean 10,000 reason why you have myraid in NIV.

So this is not Mohammed leading "saints" from Mecca to Medina because Paran is near Arabia

Using the Bible in German translations

Luther Bibel (1912)
Und er sprach: Der Herr ist vom Sinai gekommen und ist ihnen aufgegangen von Seir; er ist hervorgebrochen von dem Berge Pharan und ist gekommen mit viel tausend Heiligen; zu seiner rechten Hand ist ein feuriges Gesetz an sie.

Textbibel (1899)
Er sprach: Jahwe kam vom Sinai her und glänzte ihnen auf von Seir. Er ließ sein Licht aufleuchten vom Gebirge Paran und kam nach Meribath Kades, zu seiner Rechten ein loderndes Feuer.

Luther Bibel (1545)
und sprach: Der HERR ist von Sinai kommen und ist ihnen aufgegangen von Seir; er ist hervorgebrochen von dem Berge Paran und ist kommen mit viel tausend Heiligen; zu seiner rechten Hand ist ein feuriges Gesetz an sie.

Elberfelder Bibel (1871)
Jehova ist vom Sinai hergekommen und ist ihnen aufgegangen von Seir; er ist hervorgestrahlt von dem Berge Paran und ist gekommen von heiligen Myriaden. Aus seiner Rechten ging Gesetzesfeuer für sie hervor.

As you can see even Luther translation of the Bible said many thousands of saints (not an exact figure), Elberfelder 1871 said a myriad of saints, Luther 1912 also said many thousands of saints. The translations are centuries old and we can argue against corruption of the texts in this regard.

2And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them

Remember this happened when they were in the wilderness when the LORD led the children of Israel by a pillar of cloud during the day and fire during the night. If I have not explained to your satisfaction please bear with me but the German translation pretty much satisfies the amount of people that were led by the LORD.

proo212:

Hello there Bashy-Demy, you called me out of retirement.


Firstly it says the LORD and that is what it is, The LORD. We can argue that Bible scholars realised the 10,000 was impractical from the translation in many versions of the bible especially KJV and changed it in NIV version. But look at scholarship, it is said that the King James translation is wrong because the hebrew word RBBH does not mean 10,000 reason why you have myraid in NIV.

Did i hear you say KJV is wrong? hahahha nothing we no go hear on NL oooo, ok so wish is the best bible to read? oooo i keep laughing

proo212:


So this is not Mohammed leading "saints" from Mecca to Medina because Paran is near Arabia

So who then?

proo212:


Using the Bible in German translations

So i should go and learn German again to understand bible? i taught i need an holy spirit, hahah nothing we no go hear for NL ooo

proo212:


As you can see even Luther translation of the Bible said many thousands of saints (not an exact figure), Elberfelder 1871 said a myriad of saints, Luther 1912 also said many thousands of saints. The translations are centuries old and we can argue against corruption of the texts in this regard.

2And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them

Remember this happened when they were in the wilderness when the LORD led the children of Israel by a pillar of cloud during the day and fire during the night. If I have not explained to your satisfaction please bear with me but the German translation pretty much satisfies the amount of people that were led by the LORD.

Bro i am in an English speaking country and English is my first language and KJV is the best written over 400yrs ago.

Hello Bashy Demy, you think you can score a point and put Mohammed in Deut 33:2? I said KJV is wrong in translating the hebrew word RBBH properly. I did not say the KJV is wrong oh. DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH THAT I DID NOT SAY. Other translations especially NIV used myriad but KJV used ten thousands not 10,000 not ten thousand which still means multitudes and not an exact figure. If they knew 400 years ago that people like yourself will latch onto this particular part i am sure for avoidance of doubt they too would have used multitudes.

Most other translations use ten thousands. As someone who is educated like you've mentioned in this post, I am sure can tell the difference between ten thousands and ten thousand. What I find laughable is that you guys are so desperate to find Mohammed in the bible that your exegesis of text is always incomplete, wrong or flawed. Look at verse 17 of the same Deut 33, the same word RBBH appears even twice. It says ten thousands and the next time it says thousands. This passage was clearly about Moses' blessing upon Israel, all the tribes of Israel are mentioned

With this your education, (Thank God for that), I am amazed that you tried to argue against Deut 18--Acts 3 but now because it is so obvious the Prophet is not your prophet (praise the Lord we agree on something)

Yes KJV celebrated 400 years recently but the Luther 1545 Bible is 466 years old and it says many thousands of saints. Remember you do not have to go learn German to see the truth, ten thousands and ten thousand are two different things. I really do not see what point your are making here.

This word does not simply mean 10,000; rather it means "multitude, myriad, ten thousand" according to Strong's Hebrew Dictionary. More modern translations, such as the NIV, translate it in Deuteronomy 33:2 as just that, "myriad". It does not signify a precise numeric amount, simply a great many. An interesting exercise is to look through the Old Testament at all the occurences of the word to understand how it is used in this context. Here are the 16 places where it occurs, just for reference:

Genesis 24:60 1 Samuel 18:8, Leviticus 26:8, 1 Samuel 21:11, Numbers 10:36, 1 Samuel 29:5, Deuteronomy 32:30, Psalms 3:6, Deuteronomy 33:2, Psalms 91:7, Deuteronomy 33:17, Song of Solomon 5:10, Judges 20:10, Ezekiel 16:7, 1 Samuel 18:7, Micah 6:7

^^^ i never argue with you on the figure,  WHat am saying is that who is Moses referring to in that verse?

This debate is a clear one,who is the first son of Abraham? The answer is Ishmael and God told Abraham to sacrifice his ONLY SON(which is Ishmael)God did not say your second son Issac,the only son that Abraham had then was Ishmael.

Bashy demy, are you trying to say Moses will refer to his God whom he spoke face to face and mouth to mouth to mean Mohammed? The English bibles say the LORD, are you equating Mohammed with God The four translations of the German bible I gave to you 2 of them said the LORD, one said Yahweh and the other said Jehova. There is no ambiguity here. The Hebrew bible calls the LORD YHWH in Deut 33:2 I don't know how Yahweh/Jehovah/The LORD=Mohammed?

don33310:

This debate is a  clear one,who is the first son of Abraham? The answer is Ishmael and God told Abraham to sacrifice his ONLY SON(which is Ishmael)God did not say your second son Issac,the only son that Abraham had then was Ishmael. 

Who are u to change GODs word?

(Genesis 21:12)
12 But God said to him, “Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring[a] will be reckoned.



Even the "Torah" says that Ishmael mocked Isaac and often tried to frighten him. Then Sarah insisted that Abraham send Hagar and Ishmael away if Isaac were to be prevented from following Ishmael's evil ways.

Abraham was said not to be ok with Sera's decision, this may only be for the fact that Ishmael is his son, not because of Hager Sera's maid. But God told him to do as Sarah wished and that he will make Ishmael the father of a great nation. Do u think God is bias? He knew Ishael was not surposed to be Abrahams son, if not for the Impatient of Sera. The ture wife gave the true son. How did Hager even connected to the Mohammed? Hager was from Mizraim(Egypt), while Mohammed from the city of Macoraba in Dedan and Sheba(Saudi Arabia).
Let me see a good and true details of how Mohammed is a descendant of Ishael, hope someone can provide that.

plappville:

Who are u to change the GODs word?

Amazing! You are so incredible that you love the word of God so much and you oppose “changing the word of God”.let me show you how you Christians change the word of God regarding this issue of the first born of Abraham who is Ishmael.you are only speaking out of blindness and unimaginable ignorance or you’re living in denial of the truth if you know it and have read your bible well!

(Genesis 21:12)
12 But God said to him, “Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring[a] will be reckoned.



Even the "Torah" says that Ishmael mocked Isaac and often tried to frighten him. Then Sarah insisted that Abraham send Hagar and Ishmael away if Isaac were to be prevented from following Ishmael's evil ways.

Abraham was said not to be ok with Sera's decision, this may only be for the fact that Ishmael is his son, not because of Hager Sera's maid. But God told him to do as Sarah wished and that he will make Ishmael the father of a great nation. Do u think God is bias? He knew Ishael was not surposed to be Abrahams son, if not for the Impatient of Sera. The ture wife gave the true son. How did Hager even connected to the Mohammed? Hager was from Mizraim(Egypt), while Mohammed from the city of Macoraba in Dedan and Sheba(Saudi Arabia).
Let me see a good and true details of how Mohammed is a descendant of Ishael, hope someone can provide that.

The Right of the Firstborn In The Bible
Deuteronomy 21:15-17
“If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love, when he wills his property to his sons, he must not give the rights of the firstborn to the son of the wife he loves in preference to his actual firstborn, the son of the wife he does not love.He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father’s strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him”.

So we now know who is the first born of Abraham and how Ishmael must be treated fairly and better than Isaac for being the elder son.these are not my words but the words of the bible you are accusing someone of “changing” when in fact you are the one changing it or turning a blind eye to it.


The bible tells us that God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his “only son”.it is logical and through reason to say that Ishmael was undoubtedly the first born of Abraham and if at any time someone is to be referred to as “Abraham’s only son” it would have been Ishmael.so no need to apply your interpretation in your bible and change it to suit your views which actually make no sense and are very trivial.adding your interpretation that Isaac is the “only son” of Abraham when Ishmael did not die before Abraham amounts to “changing the bible” which you accuse someone else of doing!

True that it was through the line of Isaac that prophethood immemediately was passed down.but you more than me should know that God did not deprive the line of Ishmael of prophethood.Muhammad (sa) was a descendant of Ishmael through the elder son of Ishmael.for the prophecies were God promised Ishmael the transfer of prophethood to Ishmael’s line,let me quickly remind you of these:


"The New Islamic Nation In Undeniable Bible Prophecies"
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-820160.0.html

The Fifth Kingdom(of God) In The Bible Prophecy Of The Book "DANIEL 2" Is Islam!
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-772940.0.html

Plappville, thanks for this. James 2:21 and Hebrews 11:17-18 also confirms this.

But ultimately the discussion really is about the permissive will of God and the perfect will of God. Sarah tried to move God's hand by her impatience and unbelief by giving her maidservant.

God said she will be with child but she doubted and did not believe,  and in her unbelief she suggested Abraham have an offspring through her maidservant and that will make her happy.

Perfect will =  Sarah/Isaac
Permissive will = Hagar/Ishmael

proo212:

Plappville, thanks for this. James 2:21 and Hebrews 11:17-18 also confirms this.

But ultimately the discussion really is about the permissive will of God and the perfect will of God. Sarah tried to move God's hand by her impatience and unbelief by giving her maidservant.

God said she will be with child but she doubted and did not believe,  and in her unbelief she suggested Abraham have an offspring through her maidservant and that will make her happy.

Perfect will =  Sarah/Isaac
Permissive will = Hagar/Ishmael

when your religious teaching is labelled as "racist" and supporting jewish supremacist theories which have no backing or basis even in the bible,you would cry  and complain and whine.

The Right of the Firstborn In The Bible
Deuteronomy 21:15-17
“If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love, when he wills his property to his sons, he must not give the rights of the firstborn to the son of the wife he loves in preference to his actual firstborn, the son of the wife he does not love.He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father’s strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him”.

proo212:

Bashy demy, are you trying to say Moses will refer to his God whom he spoke face to face and mouth to mouth to mean Mohammed? The English bibles say the LORD, are you equating Mohammed with God The four translations of the German bible I gave to you 2 of them said the LORD, one said Yahweh and the other said Jehova. There is no ambiguity here. The Hebrew bible calls the LORD YHWH in Deut 33:2 I don't know how Yahweh/Jehovah/The LORD=Mohammed?

Am not referring to Mohammad here, Moses the Lord came from Sinai, so is Sinai from Arabia? and rose up from seir uo to them explain this to me that what i need to understand, because you guys always say God of Israel like he is not the God of the world, but thank God Moses said he rose from Sinai meaning He is God of Arabia

proo212:

Bashy demy, are you trying to say Moses will refer to his God whom he spoke face to face and mouth to mouth to mean Mohammed? The English bibles say the LORD, are you equating Mohammed with God The four translations of the German bible I gave to you 2 of them said the LORD, one said Yahweh and the other said Jehova. There is no ambiguity here. The Hebrew bible calls the LORD YHWH in Deut 33:2 I don't know how Yahweh/Jehovah/The LORD=Mohammed?

Am not referring to Mohammad here, Moses the Lord came from Sinai, so is Sinai from Arabia? and rose up from seir uo to them explain this to me that what i need to understand, because you guys always say God of Israel like he is not the God of the world, but thank God Moses said he rose from Sinai meaning He is God of Arabia

plappville:

Who are u to change the GODs word?

(Genesis 21:12)
12 But God said to him, “Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring[a] will be reckoned.



Even the "Torah" says that Ishmael mocked Isaac and often tried to frighten him. Then Sarah insisted that Abraham send Hagar and Ishmael away if Isaac were to be prevented from following Ishmael's evil ways.

Abraham was said not to be ok with Sera's decision, this may only be for the fact that Ishmael is his son, not because of Hager Sera's maid. But God told him to do as Sarah wished and that he will make Ishmael the father of a great nation. Do u think God is bias? He knew Ishael was not surposed to be Abrahams son, if not for the Impatient of Sera. The ture wife gave the true son. How did Hager even connected to the Mohammed? Hager was from Mizraim(Egypt), while Mohammed from the city of Macoraba in Dedan and Sheba(Saudi Arabia).
Let me see a good and true details of how Mohammed is a descendant of Ishael, hope someone can provide that.

With that bo9ld i now believe you are so stewpid and ignorance of what you dont know, are you saying God does not have the power to make Sarah pregnant? and are you also saying God make mistake for making Hagar pregnant and have the first child? if not then God is great and know everything even the seen and unseen he know what is happening now and there after so never use bad words against Ishmael cos he is the first son of Abraham. I mean the son that proof Abraham to be a real man as your first child proof your husband to be a real man.

Amazing! You are so incredible that you love the word of God so much and you oppose “changing the word of God”.let me show you how you Christians change the word of God regarding this issue of the first born of Abraham who is Ishmael.you are only speaking out of blindness and unimaginable ignorance or you’re living in denial of the truth if you know it and have read your bible well!

Hebrews 11:17-18 says Isaac was the only son of Abraham, this is for a special reason, God was the commandant here, not the law. Its a specific situation. AND ABRAHAM HAD NO CHIOCE THAN TO OBEY GODS COMMAND.
Despite the existence of Ishmael, when the Binding occurs, God says Isaac is Abraham's "only son". See (Genesis 22:1-2):The bible also told us that Abraham was buried by his two sons.

Genesis 25:8-9 ) 8:Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people. 9:Isaac and Ishmael his sons buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, east of Mamre,


The truth is that, Abraham had Ishmael by the handmaiden Hagar. But Isaac was the child of promise, not Ishmael.
Regardless of hw glorious Isaac is ,nothing changes the fact that Abraham had another son. however, the God knows wht the future may produce as regard his convenant, H commanded Abraham. Ishmael and his mother Hagar were sent away in Genesis 21:14 and seem to have basically been outcasts. Its therefore possible to see, Isaac as Abraham's only son, in this sense. The God that let it like that knew why. Even if pepole try to modify it  with thier mouth, its still stands. Its the divine word of God.

bashy_demy:

With that bo9ld i now believe you are so stewpid and ignorance of what you dont know, are you saying God does not have the power to make Sarah pregnant? and are you also saying God make mistake for making Hagar pregnant and have the first child? if not then God is great and know everything even the seen and unseen he know what is happening now and there after so never use bad words against Ishmael cos he is the first son of Abraham. I mean the son that proof Abraham to be a real man as your first child proof your husband to be a real man.

WHERE DID U SEE THAT I SAID GOD HAS NOT THE POWER TO MAKE SERA PREGNANT?

Sera wasn't patient to wait for Gods promises, so with her Impatience, seeing that age is not in her favour, she choosed Her maid, that was how ISHMAEL came all about. Abraham did fancy her ideal, but she insisted and there comes Ishmael. If Sera had waited for Gods promise, do u think Ishmael will be the issue today? mr misinterpreter gently plz!

proo212:

Plappville, thanks for this. James 2:21 and Hebrews 11:17-18 also confirms this.

But ultimately the discussion really is about the permissive will of God and the perfect will of God. Sarah tried to move God's hand by her impatience and unbelief by giving her maidservant.

God said she will be with child but she doubted and did not believe,  and in her unbelief she suggested Abraham have an offspring through her maidservant and that will make her happy.

Perfect will =  Sarah/Isaac
Permissive will = Hagar/Ishmael

Thats my point, Its a kind of lesson, we learn from the bible. When God promised us, we ought to be patient with him. the result of impatient is not always pleasant.

plappville:

WHERE DID  U SEE THAT I SAID GOD HAS NOT THE POWER TO MAKE SERA PREGNANT?

Sera wasn't patient to wait for Gods promises, so with her Impatience, seeing that age is not in her favour, she choosed Her maid, that was how ISHMAEL came all about. Abraham did fancy her ideal, but she insisted and there comes Ishmael. If Sera had waited for Gods promise, do u think Ishmael will be the issue today? mr misinterpreter gently plz!  

And are you saying God is not perfect to have make Sarah pregnant first? But he want someone before Isaac cos he know Isaac will be the last born and Ishmael will be the first and that was why God delay Sarah till them and also God use Ishmael proof to Abraham, and mind you if Sarah waited she could be the one to give biorth to Ishmael but God only saying he is at work and can bring out King from the midst of Slave, so Ishmael is from the womb os how maid and God make him the head is Abraham Family

bashy_demy:

[b]And are you saying God is not perfect to have make Sarah pregnant first? [/b]But he want someone before Isaac cos he know Isaac will be the last born and Ishmael will be the first and that was why God delay Sarah till them and also God use Ishmael proof to Abraham,  and mind you if Sarah waited she could be the one to give biorth to Ishmael but God only saying he is at work and can bring out King from the midst of Slave,  so Ishmael is from the womb os how maid and God make him the head is Abraham Family

who told u this? as u ve failled to respond to my question, instead asking question, this is making u to misunderstand everything. Did i said God was impatient? First born or last born, What God commanded took place.Do u think your arguement can change it? now let me put things clearer to u.

It is plain and simple! man's failure to trust in God is what this issue lies.

In Genesis 16 shows us Abraham and his wife Sarah panicking about not having an heir when they were old, so they decided (at the urging of "Sarah" to take matters into their own hands by having Abraham sleep with his Sera's Egyptian maid Hagar. The result of this union was a son they named Ishmael.

In Genesis 16:13-16 the Angel of the God told Hagar (who resented the fact she had conceived) that her son Ishmael would live and end up being ", a wild donkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, and everyone's hand will be against him; and he will live to the east of all his brothers."

When Abraham (then still known as Abram before God changed his name) was 99 years old, God appeared and made a covenant with him, promising to make him the father of many nations , which meant at some point he would have another heir and that that other heir, and not Ishmael, would be the one with whom GOD would make his next covenant: 

Genesis 17: 1-23) This king was mentioned after Ishmael birth, he did said he will make princes from Ishmael though, but he never mentioned king for Ishmael. u must take note.

1And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

3And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

4As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7[b]And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy "seed"[/b](not seeds)after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy "seed" [/b]after thee.

8And I will give unto thee, and to thy[b] seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. (israelites of course)

9And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy [/b]seed[/b] after thee in their generations.

10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy [/b]seed[/b] after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

12And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

13He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

14And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

15And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.

16[b]And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; "kings" of people shall be of her.[/b]

17[b]Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed,[/b] and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?

18And Abraham said unto God, O that "Ishmael" might live before thee! (He wished to apply the law of first born heir here) But God speaks forther,

19[b]And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name "Isaac": and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.[/b]

But Ishmael was not left behind, see how God blessed him,

20And as for "Ishmael", I have heard thee: Behold, [/b]I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.[/b]

God still peaking for Isaacs blessings, this was his reason for visithin Abraham now, let me finish, i ve answered u of Ishmael, he continues,

21[b]But my covenant will I establish with Isaac,[/b] which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

22And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

23And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.

With what u ve seen, u should be able to know. dont tell me the old testament is corrupts because, it the only book that made u know Abraham existed.

if allah had put all these in his quran we wont be having this argument. Muslims howl that the son Abraham sacrificed was Ishmael . . . well the only reason they can even mention A NAME at all is because the bible takes care to document such vital info. Why did the quran gloss over such an important article of the muslim faith? allah sef. full of tricks

plappville:

who told u this? as u ve failled to respond to my question, instead asking question, this is making u to misunderstand everything. Did i said God was impatient? First born or last born, What God commanded took place.Do u think your arguement can change it? now let me put things clearer to u.

[i]It is plain and simple! man's failure to trust in God is what this issue lies.

In Genesis 16 shows us Abraham and his wife Sarah panicking about not having an heir when they were old, so they decided (at the urging of "Sarah" to take matters into their own hands by having Abraham sleep with his Sera's Egyptian maid Hagar. The result of this union was a son they named Ishmael.

Now on this tell me who put the Amen in the intercourse between Abraham and Hagar? Abraham has been phocking Sarah for more than 60yrs and no fruit from there labor. why is it that it is when he meet Hagar and phock hagar that God answer his prayer, wish mean Ishmael is Covenant child too if not he wont be born at all. But God only want to make Sarah happy that was why he gave them Isaac so Abraham has 2 kids from different mother's, saying one child is covenant and one is not is a stupid saying, tell among the kids you have for your hubby wish one is covenant and wish one are not?

plappville:


When Abraham (then still known as Abram before God changed his name) was 99 years old, God appeared and made a covenant with him, promising to make him the father of many nations , which meant at some point he would have another heir and that that other heir, and not Ishmael, would be the one with whom GOD would make his next covenant: 

With what u ve seen, u should be able to know. dont tell me the old testament is corrupts because, it the only book that made u know Abraham existed.

So father of many Nation through who and who?

davidylan:

if allah had put all these in his quran we wont be having this argument. Muslims howl that the son Abraham sacrificed was Ishmael . . . well the only reason they can even mention A NAME at all is because the bible takes care to document such vital info. Why did the quran gloss over such an important article of the muslim faith? allah sef. full of tricks

Ok when God ask Abraham to Sacrifice how only son tell who is he talking about? can some have 2 kids and you say only son?

davidylan:

if allah had put all these in his quran we wont be having this argument. Muslims howl that the son Abraham sacrificed was Ishmael . . . well the only reason they can even mention A NAME at all is because the bible takes care to document such vital info. Why did the quran gloss over such an important article of the muslim faith? allah sef. full of tricks

one more time you prove to be more ignorant than i think.your stu.pidity seem to have no bound.you utter words to fulfill your desires and display your imaginations.thank you for giving us the opportunity to make plain the truthfulness of Islam one more time.thank you and may Allah guide you!

Holy Quran 37:99-113
Abraham said: “I am going to my Lord; He will guide me. Lord, grant me a righteous son.” (In response to this prayer) We gave him the good news of a prudent boy; and when he was old enough to go about and work with him, (one day) Abraham said to him: “My son, I see in my dream that I am slaughtering you. So consider (and tell me) what you think.” He said: “Do as you are bidden. You will find me, if Allah so wills, among the steadfast.” When both surrendered (to Allah’s command) and Abraham flung the son down on his forehead, We cried out: “O Abraham, you have indeed fulfilled your dream. Thus do We reward the good-doers.” This was indeed a plain trial. And We ransomed him with a mighty sacrifice, and We preserved for him a good name among posterity. Peace be upon Abraham. Thus do We reward the good-doers. Surely he was one of Our believing servants. And We gave him the good news of Isaac, a Prophet and among the righteous ones. And We blessed him and Isaac. Among the offspring of the two some did good and some plainly wronged themselves.

@Davidylan

since you seem so interested and aching to know what Allah says and commands,it is now left for you to be seen abiding by His commands and following His words.

Now on this tell me who put the Amen in the intercourse between Abraham and Hagar? Abraham has been phocking Sarah for more than 60yrs and no fruit from there labor. why is it that it is when he [b]meet Hagar and phock hagar [/b]that God answer his prayer, wish mean Ishmael is Covenant child too if not he wont be born at all. But God only want to make Sarah happy that was why he gave them Isaac so Abraham has 2 kids from different mother's, saying one child is covenant and one is not is a silly saying, tell among the kids you have for your hubby wish one is covenant and wish one are not?

Very dirty way of talking, until u use a more decent language, i ve no responds for this question.