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la_vivi (f)
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White women's opinion of black women & a brother's response
Please take a moment and read this. Pretty Deep! Thumbs up to this black man,
Enjoy.
It seems that an article was written to Sister 2 Sister magazine by a Caucasian woman who requested a response from black men. I'm so glad she got what she asked for (and more) !!! Dear Jamie:
I'm sorry but I would like to challenge some of your Black male readers.
I am a White female who is engaged to a Black male-good-looking, educated and loving. I just don't understand a lot of Black female's attitudes about our relationship.
My man decided he wanted me because the pickings amongst Black women were slim to none. As he said they were either too fat, too loud, too mean, too argumentative, too needy, too materialistic or carrying too much excess baggage.
Before I became engaged, whenever I went out I was constantly approached by Black men, willing to wine and dine me and give me the world. If Black women are so up in arms about us being with their men, why don't they look at themselves and make some changes.
I am tired of the dirty looks I get and snide remarks when we're out in public. I would like to hear from some Black men about why we are so appealing and coveted by them.
Bryant Gumbel just left his wife of 26 years fo r one of us Charles Barkley, Scottie Pippen, the model Tyson Beckford, Montell Williams, Quincy Jones, James Earl Jones, Harry Belafonte, Sydney Poitier, Kofi Anan, Cuba Gooding Jr., Don Cornelius, Berry Gordy, Billy Blanks, Larry Fishburne, Wesley Snipes,
I could go on and on. But, right now, I'm a little angry and that is why I wrote this so hurriedly. Don't be mad with us White women because so many of your men want us. Get your acts together and learn from us and we may lead you to treat your men better. If I'm wrong, Black men, let me know.
Disgusted White Girl, Somewhere in VA RESPONSE Dear Jamie:
I would like to respond to the letter written by A Disgusted White Girl.
Let me start by saying that I am a 28-year old black man. I graduated from one of the most prestigious universities in Atlanta, Georgia with a Bachelor of Arts Degree in Business Management. I have a good job at a major corporation and have recently purchased a house. So, I consider m yself to be among the ranks of successful black men.
I will not use my precious time to sl ander white people. I just want to set the record straight of why black men date white women. Back in the day, one of the biggest reasons why black men dated white women was because they were considered easy.
The black girls in my neighborhood were raised in the church. They were very strict about when they lost their virginity and who they lost it to. Because of our impatience to wait, brothers would look for someone who would give it up easy without too much hassle. So, they turned to the white girls.
Nowadays, in my opinion, a lot of brothers date white women because they are docile and easy to control. A lot of black men, because of insecurities, fears, and overall weaknesses, have become intimidated by the strength of our black women. We are afraid that our woman will be more successful than us, make more money than us, drive nicer cars and own bigger houses. Because of this fear, many black men look for a more docile woman. Someone we can control.
I have talked to numerous black men and they continuously comment on how easy it is to control and walk over their white women. I just want to set the record straight. I want A Disgusted White Girl to know that not all successful black men date white women.
Brothers like Ahmad Rashad, Denzel Washington, Michael Jordan, Morris Chestnut, Will Smith, Blair Underwood, Kenneth "Babyface" Edmonds, Samuel L. Jackson, and Chris Rock all married strong black women And, to flip the script, there are numerous white men, in and out of the spot light, who openly or secretly de sire black women over white women. Ted Danson, Robert DeNiro, and David Bowie to name a few.
I just don't want a disgusted white girl to be misinformed Stop thinking that because you are white that you are some type of goddess. Remember, when black Egyptian Queens like Hatsepshut and Nitorcris were ruling Dynasties and armies of men in Egypt, you were over in the caves of Europe eating raw meat and beating each other over the head with clubs. Read your history!
It was the black woman that taught you how to cook and season your food. It was the black woman that taught you how to raise your children. It was black women who were breast feeding and raising your babies during slavery.
It is the black woman that had to endure watching their fathers, husbands, and children beaten, killed, and thrown in jail. Black women were born with two strikes against them: being black and being a woman. And, through all this, Still They Rise!
It is because of the black women's strength, elegance, power, love and beauty that I could> never> date anyone except my black Queen. It is not just the outer beauty that captivates and draws me to them. It is not the fact that they come in all shapes, sizes, colors and shades that I love them.
Their inner beauty is what I find most appealing about black women. Their strong spirit, loving and nurturing souls, their integrity, their ability to overcome great obstacles, their willingness to stand for what they believe in, and their determination to succeed and reach their highest potential while enduring great pain and suffering is why I have fallen in love with black women.
I honestly believe that your anger is geared more toward jealousy and envy more so than snotty looks. If this were not so, then why do you continuously go to tanning salons to darken your skin? If you are so proud to be white, then why don't you just be happy with your pale skin? Why do you continue to inject your lips, hips, and breasts with unnatural and dangerous substances so you can look fuller and more voluptuous?
I think that your anger is really a result of you wanting to have what the black woman has.
BOTTOM LINE: If I were looking for a docile woman, someone I can walk over and control, I would give you a call. But, unfortunately, I am looking for a Virtuous Woman. Someone that can be a good wife and mother to my children.
Someone who can be my best friend and understands my struggles. I am looking for a soul mate. I am looking for a sister and; unfortunately, you do not and CANNOT fit the bill.
No offense taken, none given.
Signed, Black Royalty
Wow!! We must pass this on to make the day of the Black Queens of our
acquaintances!
Reader i will like you to added your contributions toward this Topic!
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2cantango (f)
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will it ever end. . .
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gbade. x (m)
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won't really blame the white chick though. but She really needs to get her act together. so much for the hating on Black sistahs! thank God for 2face and his song,"African Queen". really gives them props. even Ludacris gave the black women props.
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Eastcoast (f)
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go men. the boy's reply really rocks da house. wow!!!. u rock men. i am amazed. i just like it. some parts also got me laughing  Disgusted White Girl, Somewhere in VA RESPONSE .
Remember, when black Egyptian Queens like Hatsepshut and Nitorcris were ruling Dynasties and armies of men in Egypt, you were over in the caves of Europe eating raw meat and beating each other over the head with clubs. Read your history!
It was the black woman that taught you how to cook and season your food. It was the black woman that taught you how to raise your children. It was black women who were breast feeding and raising your babies during slavery.
THis part got me laughing. |
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Seun (m)
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There are white women on this forum.  |
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2cantango (f)
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God Bless You Seun  |
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Eastcoast (f)
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seun, she did not say anything against white women. even if there are white women on this forum it doesn't mean we shouldn't post stuff like this. i can tell you, if the population of this forum was mostly white, they would say all sort of things regarding blacks. u don't know these people. just leave this issue alone. when u live in countries with mixed population not to talk about countries in which other races have experienced racism, that is when you will understand it more clearly. as for now, nobody said anyting against anybody.
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Seun (m)
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2cantango, for example, has been a lovely member of the forum. I appreciate "these people" very much. Whites who hate blacks are unlikely to be on a Nigerian forum. The time has come to make this section of the forum dissapear.
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Eastcoast (f)
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it can disappear for all it cares. i don't give a damn.  |
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idiot-boop (f)
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@ Seun i am amazed at your double standards. i really don't see anything offensive in the posts and i am sorry like i have said before your reasoning can be a little misguided sometimes. Take time to listen to people before jumpimg down their throats. That article is true to the person and the place he comes from.
You say there are white people on this forum, are you saying people should not express themselves? I had to ask my husabnd to read this page and the replies to get his opinion because he is white and English and guess what? he though it was insightful.
You do have alot of double standards seun , you are not consistent at all, i did not see you say to people in some threads where religion was discussed and there were non christains there arguing on a christain thread, You did not say ''please stop there are christains here''
I think if you begin to play political correctness in certain issues like now you would stir up animousity and you would find that sometimes the people you trying to protect are not even that bothered any way.
I appreciate the poster for this thread because some of our black women need to hear positive things about them from time to time, this is a true account of what goes on in the coutries of most of your members, especially USA and nairaland provides a place for like minded Africans and non africans to come together and talk, so let people talk.
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idiot-boop (f)
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Oh! one last thing, people love who they love, my black bros who prefer black sisters its all good, black sisters who prefer black brothers its all good, those who find love in different shapes, color or size its all good ,I found love in a white man and i don't ven see is color at all, i didnt have a specific race in mind when this happened and i can still totally relate to the article and the problems on both sides of the fence.
One love
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Seun (m)
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I created this section at a time when I thought more freedom will be helpful to the forum. Events since then have shown that this was a step in the wrong direction. Now is time to clean from the forum whatever it is that divides us.
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Eastcoast (f)
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@seun, it is like you are missing the mind point and idea behind the post. It is a form of encouragement to all the blackladies out there ok. come on. *really pissed off  * |
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Seun (m)
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I need to go and sleep. Oh dear.  |
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Jakumo (m)
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Any person who was resided in the US for a few years will surely have an emotional reaction to the starting post in this thread.
I personally found the published ( purple print) response of the black woman in that starting thread to be predicatably long on emotion and laughably short on logic and relevance. Who cares what the Egyptians had for dinner 2 thousand years ago, and by whose statistics can ALL white women be categorised as "easy to woo and then dominate" ? That has got to be the biggest crock of stale crap ever served up in print in a good while, and I sure hope that black woman isn't planning on a career as an attorney, for she would lose every case she attempts with such feeble argumentation.
To all the poke-nosing and embittered castigators of inter-racial love, please try for just once minding your own frigging business and affairs, for no number of bogus and irrelevant history lessons or wild generalizations are going to stop black men from having sex with whoever they want to from any race.
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gbade. x (m)
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Any person who was resided in the US for a few years will surely have an emotional reaction to the starting post in this thread.
I personally found the published ( purple print) response of the black woman in that starting thread to be predicatably long on emotion and laughably short on logic and relevance. Who cares what the Egyptians had for dinner 2 thousand years ago, and by whose statistics can ALL white women be categorised as "easy to woo and then dominate" ? That has got to be the biggest crock of stale crap ever served up in print in a good while, and I sure hope that black woman isn't planning on a career as an attorney, for she would lose every case she attempts with such feeble argumentation.
Thank God it's 100% of your opinion  |
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la_vivi (f)
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I 've been following all the repsonses in this Thread,let me make it categorically clear ''I don't have bad intentions for the white sisters,after i have some white girls as my friends'' I think the moderator of this forum (Seun) is getting it wrong in some threads members post. I just can't understand why he wants to remove this thread.
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Jakumo (m)
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I'll second La-Vivi's plea that this thread be allowed to continue. Deleting threads which contain emotional responses only removes the discussion of such touchy subjects from this arena. Regardless of whether or not such subjects are discussed here, they will remain as explosive as ever in those societies to which they apply. If this category of discussion threads (Racism - Tribalism - Sectarianism) was created for the discussion of sensitive subjects that may offend some readers, then it can be assumed that those who would be offended would have already chosen not read or post in this category of subjects, and thus the basis for closing such controversial discussion topics is inherently diminished.
Seun, some of the best and most honest writing flows out when the writer is angry as hell, and since those who can't stand the heat are already away from this kitchen, I implore you to allow heated discourse and verbal fireworks to have a home in your forum, while of course retaining the perogative to delete those contributions that contain excessive foul language, or which do not directly relate to the thread topic. Placing a ban on talking about homeless people, for example, would do nothing to reduce the problem of poverty and its consequences, and the same goes for the cancer of racism.
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Seun (m)
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Ok, I agree with you. This stays.
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idiot-boop (f)
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@ Seun I know it can't be easy deciding sometimes what is of interest to the forum or the users in general, and although i feel like pulling you through this thing called cyber world and shaking you up a few times, i will say this once and once only, Well done ( can you feel how hard that is for me?  )  @Jakumo I'll second La-Vivi's plea that this thread be allowed to continue. Deleting threads which contain emotional responses only removes the discussion of such touchy subjects from this arena. Regardless of whether or not such subjects are discussed here, they will remain as explosive as ever in those societies to which they apply. If this category of discussion threads (Racism - Tribalism - Sectarianism) was created for the discussion of sensitive subjects that may offend some readers, then it can be assumed that those who would be offended would have already chosen not read or post in this category of subjects, and thus the basis for closing such controversial discussion topics is inherently diminished.
Seun, some of the best and most honest writing flows out when the writer is angry as hell, and since those who can't stand the heat are already away from this kitchen, I implore you to allow heated discourse and verbal fireworks to have a home in your forum, while of course retaining the perogative to delete those contributions that contain excessive foul language, or which do not directly relate to the thread topic. Placing a ban on talking about homeless people, for example, would do nothing to reduce the problem of poverty and its consequences, and the same goes for the cancer of racism.
Well said jakumo |
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TYPOP (m)
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Thank God Seun u r not deleting the thread. Let my white sisters report the thread if it is offensive. Afterall, there is "report to moderator" with every thread. This was allowed in a magazine and to think about it, a white lady started it.
My WHITE SISTERS, I LOVE Y'ALL.
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mamaput (f)
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Question.
did she not noticethe way white men look at her because she is with a black man.
the same way black men look at black women with a white man .
Its just a terrible circle.
There is no race that just approves of their people with outsiders.
As for that white woman i can understand what she is going through.
Mixed couples have a though time all over the world.
But its the kids that suffer the more .
Not black and not white.
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davidylan (m)
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if anyone should feel slighted at all in an inter-racial relationship it is the black man and not the "disgusted" white girl. Does she consider the looks and comments her fiance gets each time? She did not bother to tell us how hard it took before her friends and family got used to having her engaged to a black man.
having said that, i will like to second Jakumo's argument. My dears, please there are 2 sides to a coin. I have seen numerous responsible, well brought up white girls too and YOU DO NOT WALK ALL OVER THEM! not all white girls throw away their virginities and besides teenage pregnancy right now is more prevalent among black teenagers than white! There are more aids cases among black girls than white! More white girls are likely to attend college than black!
There are more black women in prison than white women!
And don't tell me that's all down to racism. I live in a town in upstate newyork where for every black female in my grad school there are at least 40-50 white females. There are no black female faculty members! Among the cleaners, there are 40 black females to 1 hispanic female (i am yet to spot a white female!)
In my church, there are at least 20X more white than black females! Not all white females tan their skin!
For your information, i am a nigerian!
Thanks so much to the black brother, i am 10x more likely to marry a white than a black female!
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Jakumo (m)
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Davidylan, those statistics you provided are sadly quite representative of the demographics in cities and towns accross the USA.
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Hotstepper (f)
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Brilliant reply, let me tell you people something. I know alot oF Nigerian guys here that are fucking white girls and what you will hear is that when they want to marry they will look for a Nigerian girl and get married to. What the guy said is just the truth period. Whites want to drees, talk, act and do everything like blacks and like to date blacks and they are easy to come by when the dude needs them. I know of a guy from Kenya that mess girls and his g/f is white and the gurl knows but still won't leave him. he even fucked a gurl at a party they all went together but still sticks around. he sayz he won't marry a white gurl too, he is an int.ernational student so maybe again hez in for something.
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chinani (f)
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if anyone should feel slighted at all in an inter-racial relationship it is the black man and not the "disgusted" white girl. Does she consider the looks and comments her fiance gets each time? She did not bother to tell us how hard it took before her friends and family got used to having her engaged to a black man.
having said that, i will like to second Jakumo's argument. My dears, please there are 2 sides to a coin. I have seen numerous responsible, well brought up white girls too and YOU DO NOT WALK ALL OVER THEM! not all white girls throw away their virginities and besides teenage pregnancy right now is more prevalent among black teenagers than white! There are more aids cases among black girls than white! More white girls are likely to attend college than black!
There are more black women in prison than white women!
And don't tell me that's all down to racism. I live in a town in upstate newyork where for every black female in my grad school there are at least 40-50 white females. There are no black female faculty members! Among the cleaners, there are 40 black females to 1 hispanic female (i am yet to spot a white female!)
In my church, there are at least 20X more white than black females! Not all white females tan their skin!
For your information, i am a nigerian!
Thanks so much to the black brother, i am 10x more likely to marry a white than a black female!
Why must we throw stones? I find that when people grasp desperately and blindly for justifications they simply make fools of themselves. Davidylan, I have read many of your posts and I am a fan or yours (intellectually speaking), so now why have you come to make a mockery of yourself w/ this unnecessary and ridiculous response? When you get a wife or girlfriend will you smile at her and say "I loved you/noticed you b/c you were the loveliest ivory bisque!"? Will it be b/c she is white? I know many white women, as well as Asian, N. American, Indian, Berber, Zulu, the list goes onand none would appreciate this "compliment". You also would not appreciate this from her so why come up w/ preposterous reasons, trying to connect the number/percentage of *black maids* to your future mate. Furthermore, an honest days work is an honest days work. If a person is providing a service and being paid who are you to look down on them, sha??? If I get paid for wiping someone's ass and use my money to support the economy WE ALL BENEFIT so save me your superiority complex, o.k.? Also bringing up prison statistics would be like me saying "There's so many black men in prison, more than White and Asian men combined, so I'm definitely not going to marry black men!" Well guess what, more white women KILL THEIR CHILDREN than black or latino women? What does that mean? Is your next white girlfriend a future baby drowner??? ABSOLUTELY NOT! It's just another statistic. . . There will ALWAYS be statistics in support of one racist view or another. In fact, statistics can be used to "justify" almost anything depending on how the data is collected and how it is interpreted. To take data and make a categorical statement is more a signal of ignorance than of wit. Yes, there are good men, bad men, good women, bad women in all races. Yes, in all races there are also those who hate on others. Why be reactive instead of proactive. No one gives a monkey's ass who you shall marry so why tell us b/c some white woman or black man has chaffed at your ego? We all have egos; you try to offend my pride b/c yours was hurt or challenged. People, T-H-I-N-K before you S-P-E-A-K A-C-T, abeg! p.s. I will NOT tell you about racism. I think you might need more help than I can provide. Please look up and read something from Michael Eric Dyson or Cornell West or even THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF MALCOLM X. It may not change your mind but it will definitely broaden your scope. People say that "a word is enough for the wise" and I've noticed it's those who do not learn from the lives of others that go about spouting hot garbage. Go ahead read COMING OF AGE IN MISSISSIPPI. I dare you. . . |
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Jakumo (m)
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Hotstepper your claim that ALL whites want to dress, eat, talk, and bone lilke blacks is evidently based on your evaluation of a couple of individuals you happen to know of in some Kenyan backwater, but is also a blatantly false generalization that cannot hold up in the harsh light of reality in American life.
Read Davidylan's post again, for you seem to have drawn a conclusion that is 180 degrees opposed to what he was saying two entries ago. Without checking your profile I can say with near certainty that you've probably never set foot in the USA, for if you had, then you would be very much aware of just how polarized American society actually is, and you would also be aware that with the exception of the teenage whites who grow through a phase of dressing in "gangsta" attire and listening to hip-hop and rap music, the vast majority of whites go out of their way to highlight the distinction between "their" culture and that of the blacks and hispanics.
Even today in 2006, blacks, whites and hispanics in America generally reside in distinct and separate neigborhoods, attend schools that are largely segregated, socialize in de-facto segregated watering holes, listen to radio stations which play music that is specifically identifyable with their own race, drive cars that are cosmetically modified to reflect the culture and racial origin of the driver and even prefer slightly different food items on their dinner menus at home. There is no true "melting pot" of races in the USA, but rather an uneasy amalgam of separate and very distinct cultures which seldom mix socially.
Finally, your assertion that black men regard white women as easy sex partners but not marriage material is simply wishful thinking on your part. There are women of easy virtue in ALL races, so your fanciful concepts regarding who any given individual would choose to marry exist primarily in your mind and not in the real world.
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Shannon (f)
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As a white girl in an interacial relationship I have to say, what was this white girl thinking? My goodness, she needs to chill out a bit. I don't feel bad for her fiance though either, if they can't handle the heat then get out of the kitchen. In the US interacial relationships are still not entirely favored by people of any race. To tell the truth I've gotten comments about dating a black man, but they were from a hispanic guy and then another white guy. I haven't had any comments from black people, but that doesn't make me assume that I won't eventually come across someone who happens to be black and have a problem with me dating who I happen to be dating. Seriously now, if she can't handle the comments then don't get married to the guy, cause they're not going away until everyone on the entire planet realizes that skin color is really of no importance whatsoever when it comes to matters of the heart.
Maybe this women should have thought about the fact that eventually she could have a mixed race daughter that other people will most likely consider black. Did she really think about who she was tearing down when she wrote that letter? Wow, she just puts the rest of us to shame.
Jakumo, I agree with what you said in your last post. America is not a melting pot, which is why there are such great divisions between race and financial status. The US is all about the hierarchy of class.
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chinani (f)
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@ Shannon Great post. You hit the nail on its headl!  |
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nubian (m)
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Tough arguments , a lot of emotion, it just shows the sensitivity of the subject. All arguments and grudges just show the complexity of human nature and how we(1) react to having being abused,(2)the human tendency to feel superior,(3)the human desire to reach out in true love and break barriers,(4)the curiosity of human spirit,and (6)how economis status(wealth and financial power ) will always be a relevant factor in how humans relate to one another.
(1) Reaction to being abused - The blk race has suffered a lot of abuse and humiliation, it still does today.blk women have suffered both as blks and as women.The blk lady who posted this thread could therefore not stand a wht girl telling her she was better than blk women , and thus prefered by blk men.she loved the reply because it told the wht girl that blk men value and love their women .The wht girl was told blk men and women had traveled the same harsh journey through history and therefore formed real,true deep companionships.The wht girl was told the blk man has slightly different concepts of beauty, he prefers his women fleshier as God had created them. It also reminded her that there are millions of wht men who want/lust after blk women.It reminded the wht girl that blk men did not see her as a wht goddess.The reply bolstered the blk woman and told the wht girl she had nothing superior to blk womanhood.It is the reaction of the womanhood of a race that has been abused.
(2) There is an inherent tendency in human nature to want to feel superior.It is a sad tendencyof every human - blk white hispanic or oriental.blks feel superior to fellow blks - the americo liberians of Liberia felt superior to the native liberians and monopolised political power in Liberia for hundereds of years,they formed a class system of political and economic domination,that is the genesis of the Liberian war . Some African americans feel superior to africans , africans do experience such discrimination from afro americans.There are caste sytems and class segregation in all human societies - asian,latin and within the white race itself.Its just the sad tendency of humans to feel superior to others.The most guilty race is however the wht race.It has oppresed and subjugated every other race in its path -blks,asians,orientals,native americans,latin americans , u just name it.The wht girl displayed this racial arrogance, insinuating wht girls were better than blk women.The blk guy who replied tried to but her in her place, he tried to cut her to size.
(3)The human desire to reach out in true love and break barriers has also been evident in the arguments ive read ,some ladies and genltemen here have said they will date any body regardless of colour.They have said all the artificial man made barriers do not matter to them , all they see is a human being of the opposite sex they love.
(4) the human spirit is curious - also sexually curious, it is natural to want to explore the opposite sex of another race, male or female - i have seen how wht men go crazy in Africa , on a sexual rampage devouring blk women - right now i work in a multi racial and multinational organization, i have observed the sexual curiousity of many wht,asian and latino women for blk men,most of these women came straight from their home countries and therefore are immersed in a sea of blk men for the first time.SO am saying for some , its not love across racial barriers, its lust and exploration across racial barriers ( i don't want to talk about myths such as the blk mans sexual prowes being a propeling factor enticing these women because i find such talk degrading and painful)
(5) Finaly and most importantly superior economic power is the very foundation of discrimination.once u can emancipate yourself financially nobody can look down on u.If blks are well off , no wht girl will feel like a wht goddess whom a blk wan wants to hook onto.blk men will no longer pick wht women as price trophies to show of their economic power- do u guys know what i mean, ?? . I HAVE ALWAYS FELT UPSET AT THE SIGHT OF BLK GIRLS FLOCKING AROUND WHT MEN IN AFRICA JUST FOR MONEY. I AM THEREFORE PRONE TO GIVING SUCH COUPLES NASTY STARES because I SEE IT AS EXPLOITATION OF BLK WOMANHOOD BY WHT TOURISTS AND EXPARTRATE WORKERS. The whts have always looked down on the orientals ( every other race as a matter of fact) , but today many oriental nations are joining the ranks of the rich and powerful economies of the world - china, malaysia, india japan etc. The western world no longer fucks around with these emering economic tigers( am talking about in the area of international economic and military relations).ALL AM SAYING IS U EARN RESPECT, U don't BEG FOR IT. Economic emancipation of a whole society wipes out the arrogance of others,interacial relationships then become easier because the aura of superiority or inferiority dissapears into thin air - just true human love prevails as no party has cause to feel better or worse than the other.THE WHT GIRL WHO GOT A NASTY REPLY WOULD THEN NOT THINK BLK WOMEN ARE TOO NEEDY,OR ARGUMENTATIVE,SHE WOULD KNOW THAT FAT OR SLIM IS SIMPLY AN INDIVIDUALS CHIOCE,THE COUPLE WOULD NOT GET LESS NASTY STARES because ENVIES , JEALOUSIES , SUSPICIONS AND OTHER PREJUDICES WOULD REDUCE
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