Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette

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I-man (m)
Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« on: October 17, 2007, 01:57 PM »

One of the world's most eminent scientists has triggered a race row after claiming black people are less intelligent than whites.

Dr James Watson, who shared the 1959 Nobel Prize for medicine with Francis Crick and Maurice Wilkins for their discovery of DNA, made his comments ahead of a tour of Britain to promote his new book.

The 79-year-old claimed he was 'inherently gloomy about the the prospect of Africa' because 'all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really'.


Dr Watson, who is the director of the Cold Spring Harbour Laboratory on Long Island, added that while hoping everyone was equal 'people who have to deal with black employees find this not true'.

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=71204&in_page_id=34
almondjoy (f)
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #1 on: October 18, 2007, 06:21 PM »

Is it a lie? Undecided
I-man (m)
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #2 on: October 18, 2007, 07:23 PM »

Quote from: almondjoy on October 18, 2007, 06:21 PM
Is it a lie? Undecided

There is really no scientifically valid way of telling either way,so for a scientist to make that remark,he is operating on shaky grounds.
Germannig
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #3 on: October 19, 2007, 02:45 PM »

Quote from: I-man on October 18, 2007, 07:23 PM
There is really no scientifically valid way of telling either way
Says who?
Germannig
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #4 on: October 19, 2007, 02:48 PM »

Sure you can check quite easily by DNA sequencing and differential analysis of white and black genes for cognition. But it is a very ethical and touchy subject which practically no scientist wants to go into.  If the results come out and show there are sharp differences (apart from skin color) it might cause serious racial problems, depending on who's favoured. For now, its all conjectures and no scientific evidence.
davidylan (m)
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #5 on: October 20, 2007, 02:24 AM »

Quote from: Germannig on October 19, 2007, 02:48 PM
Sure you can check quite easily by DNA sequencing and differential analysis of white and black genes for cognition. But it is a very ethical and touchy subject which practically no scientist wants to go into.  If the results come out and show there are sharp differences (apart from skin color) it might cause serious racial problems, depending on who's favoured. For now, its all conjectures and no scientific evidence.

Is there a gene for cognition??  Shocked What would sequencing the genes tell you besides a long line of ACTGs?
Uche2nna (m)
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #6 on: October 20, 2007, 07:12 AM »

Is there a gene for cognition?

LMAO


Maybe Germanin will tell us on what chromosome that is.


Japan does not give a damn about ethics  and that is why they are @ the forefront germline manipulations. If there was a gene for cognition those guys would have gone after it a long time ago
Quote from: Germannig on October 19, 2007, 02:48 PM
But it is a very ethical and touchy subject which practically no scientist wants to go into.
I-man (m)
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #7 on: October 20, 2007, 11:44 AM »

Dr Watson did say that genes responsible for creating differences in human intelligence could be found within a decade. He seemed to be preempting the science for if we are a decade away from discovering such genes,on what basis did he then draw his conclusions?
almondjoy (f)
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #8 on: October 20, 2007, 02:03 PM »

And the search for proof and validation continues!  Is this another phase of "denial"? Tongue
Kobojunkie
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #9 on: October 20, 2007, 04:29 PM »

Reality is this. Whether we like it or not if Scientists decide to embark on finding the gene that codes for human intelligence, we as africans will have to still prove that we are not the stupid bunch. That day may come. We have to learn to deal with our emotions and move on when it comes to this RACE issue. WE ARE NOT ALL OF THE SAME RACE,  dealing with that is the most logical thing to do.
davidylan (m)
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #10 on: October 20, 2007, 04:32 PM »

There is no gene that codes for intelligence, it is a learned behaviour. We might as well start looking for genes that code for eating and smiling.
Kobojunkie
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #11 on: October 20, 2007, 04:36 PM »

Quote from: davidylan on October 20, 2007, 04:32 PM
There is no gene that codes for intelligence, it is a learned behaviour. We might as well start looking for genes that code for eating and smiling.

Intelligence,  a behaviour?? I don't believe that


in·tel·li·gence (n-tl-jns)
n.
1.
a. The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge.
b. The faculty of thought and reason.
Uche2nna (m)
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #12 on: October 20, 2007, 07:07 PM »



How can I make this thread stop showing up when I log on  Sad
wendymanda
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #13 on: October 20, 2007, 11:31 PM »

Science cannot prove whether or not one race is more intelligent than the other. DNA sequencing has nothing to do with intellingence. There was a time when blacks were presumed less intelligence based on skull size now it is based on a future study of genes. Let's not allow ourselves to be put back into the slave mentality mind set. Is Africa the only poor continent? What about India and other parts of Asia? Are they as intelligent or more than blacks? What about parts of South America, the Caribbean? The only reason it seems we can't reach where some white nations have is because we will never have the opportunity to colonize thus steal other people's precious resource. 
Kobojunkie
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #14 on: October 20, 2007, 11:58 PM »

Quote from: wendymanda on October 20, 2007, 11:31 PM
Science cannot prove whether or not one race is more intelligent than the other. DNA sequencing has nothing to do with intellingence. There was a time when blacks were presumed less intelligence based on skull size now it is based on a future study of genes. Let's not allow ourselves to be put back into the slave mentality mind set. Is Africa the only poor continent? What about India and other parts of Asia? Are they as intelligent or more than blacks? What about parts of South America, the Caribbean? The only reason it seems we can't reach where some white nations have is because we will never have the opportunity to colonize thus steal other people's precious resource. 

I don't believe you have the right meaning of the word intelligence there at all. If you look at the dictionary meaning I posted above, you will see that Science can not make anyone do anything. There was also a time when people refused to believe that we have anything in common with apes and what do we have today?? we are about 98% ape, does that then mean we are to act like apes and appear as apes?? NO,  it is simply what it is and we decide how we then apply that knowledge either to our benefit or to our own detriment. If there is  really a gene that codes for intelligence, we do not know at this time but we can do a lot with that knowledge. If you think about it, we already have a situation were we know that the gene that codes for the protein melanin is more abundant in darker skinned people than it is in lighter skin people. Has that in any way caused the lighter skinned people to feel inferior to the darker skinned people?? Do you think they stay up at night crying about how they are cursed with lower melanin ration than the dark people??

If this happens, regardless of where we are in our maturity level, will we ever be able to get past the EMOTIONAL TANTRUMS and actually use this information to our good?? Case and point China. Chinese people understand that they do not have as much know how in many fields as people in the western world. Do you know how China has been able to move itself from the list of under developed countries to almost top of the list of developing countries?? China has simply taking it on itself to copy exactly what is already working best in countries like the US and europe and basically multiplied these processes to the point that it is able to cause a shift in the market in it's own favour. Go anywhere in China and you will see that they really do not have many new things but they have so many of the same models used in the western world in great numbers and have used the knowledge to their advantage.

The may not have created anything new but they have INTELLIGENTLY Used what already exists to not only boost their status in the world but have actually placed themselves in a position of next economic power if all goes well and they play their cards right. What is to stop Africa from doing same??
davidylan (m)
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #15 on: October 21, 2007, 12:27 AM »

Quote from: Kobojunkie on October 20, 2007, 04:36 PM
Intelligence,  a behaviour?? I don't believe that


in·tel·li·gence (n-tl-jns)
n.
1.
a. The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge.
b. The faculty of thought and reason.

that one na dictionary meaning. whether you like it or not you did not come into this world with a capacity to solve maths problems and understand language. Ever heard of feral children who lived in forests and thus lost the capacity for language by the time they reached a certain age?
can we adduce their problems to gene mutations?

Intelligence is a learned behaviour, what makes us different from others is the speed with which our brains adapt to newly acquired knowledge.
Kobojunkie
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #16 on: October 21, 2007, 12:34 AM »

Quote from: davidylan on October 21, 2007, 12:27 AM
that one na dictionary meaning. whether you like it or not you did not come into this world with a capacity to solve maths problems and understand language. Ever heard of feral children who lived in forests and thus lost the capacity for language by the time they reached a certain age?
can we adduce their problems to gene mutations?

Intelligence is a learned behaviour, what makes us different from others is the speed with which our brains adapt to newly acquired knowledge.


You are still confusing behaviour with intelligence. They are two different things. For the Feral Child, his intelligence would be measure by his ability to learn new languages and adapt in his new environment should he be taken from the forests and brought into, say a city. That child could still be seen as an intelligent child based on how he is able to adapt to his environments, even in the forest. Intelligence is not about BOOK SMARTS at all but more about how best you are able to adapt to your surroundings.  Example,  Say in Africa, a child is born in the village and is then refused school, the child can still be a very intelligent child. This child could actually grow up to be a better leader than even the kids in his own village who were blessed with being allowed education. I do not equate intelligence with level of education and I am not sure that is what Dawson was trying to do at all. Stupid is what I see happening in, say South Africa where Old educated men sex-attack babies believing that that evil will rid them of the other evil which in majority of the cases they could have prevented by simply using condoms. That is STUPIDITY and not intelligence. Stupid is a case where Educated man like the kind of swaziland sees his people in poverty but his priority is his getting a 14th wife and having the women bear their chests as his way to choose a wife. By the way, the man is educated. Stupid is the way We in Nigeria continue to do the same things over and over and over expecting somehow things will magically change in our favour when we know from experience it will not, and mind you, we are educated people doing this in Nigeria.  Grin


Quote
intelligence - the ability to comprehend; to understand and profit from experience
ability, power - possession of the qualities (especially mental qualities) required to do something or get something done; "danger heightened his powers of discrimination"
brainpower, learning ability, mental capacity, mentality, wit, brain - mental ability; "he's got plenty of brains but no common sense"
breadth, largeness, comprehensiveness - the capacity to understand a broad range of topics; "a teacher must have a breadth of knowledge of the subject"; "a man distinguished by the largeness and scope of his views"
wendymanda
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #17 on: October 21, 2007, 01:12 AM »

So the Chinese are more intelligent than Africans becuase they have been able to multiply what the West already has?
Kobojunkie
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #18 on: October 21, 2007, 01:23 AM »

Quote from: wendymanda on October 21, 2007, 01:12 AM
So the Chinese are more intelligent than Africans becuase they have been able to multiply what the West already has?


I would say you should please explain your question so I can know how to better answer. From my post there, I mention the chinese have shown they are intelligent in the way they have, instead of sitting to redefine the wheel, have taken what already exists and used it to their own advantage. You asking me if the Chinese are MORE INTELLIGENT than africans?? I am not sure how to aproach that yet. Please elaborate on what exactly you are asking
davidylan (m)
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #19 on: October 21, 2007, 02:02 AM »

Kobojunkie, Asians and Indians (i guess they are the same) score the highest on aptitude tests of any racial group . . . do we assume that whites are less intelligent than Asians?

Kobojunkie
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #20 on: October 21, 2007, 02:05 AM »

Quote from: Kobojunkie on October 21, 2007, 12:34 AM

You are still confusing behaviour with intelligence. They are two different things. For the Feral Child, his intelligence would be measure by his ability to learn new languages and adapt in his new environment should he be taken from the forests and brought into, say a city. That child could still be seen as an intelligent child based on how he is able to adapt to his environments, even in the forest. Intelligence is not about BOOK SMARTS at all but more about how best you are able to adapt to your surroundings.  Example,  Say in Africa, a child is born in the village and is then refused school, the child can still be a very intelligent child. This child could actually grow up to be a better leader than even the kids in his own village who were blessed with being allowed education. I do not equate intelligence with level of education and I am not sure that is what Dawson was trying to do at all. Stupid is what I see happening in, say South Africa where Old educated men sex-attack babies believing that that evil will rid them of the other evil which in majority of the cases they could have prevented by simply using condoms. That is STUPIDITY and not intelligence. Stupid is a case where Educated man like the kind of swaziland sees his people in poverty but his priority is his getting a 14th wife and having the women bear their chests as his way to choose a wife. By the way, the man is educated. Stupid is the way We in Nigeria continue to do the same things over and over and over expecting somehow things will magically change in our favour when we know from experience it will not, and mind you, we are educated people doing this in Nigeria.  Grin




Case and point. Look at India for example. Sure they have book smarts, but what has that actually done for them as a people?? Comparing India to China alone. Look at the condition of those economies? China is more highest populated country in the world and can not boast of the same number of book smart people as india can but check out the two countries and their place in the big picture alone. Book Smarts falls under Intelligence but is not all there is to intelligence.


Quote
intelligence - the ability to comprehend; to understand and profit from experience
ability, power - possession of the qualities (especially mental qualities) required to do something or get something done; "danger heightened his powers of discrimination"
davidylan (m)
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #21 on: October 21, 2007, 02:14 AM »

Quote from: Kobojunkie on October 21, 2007, 02:05 AM

Case and point. Look at India for example. Sure they have book smarts, but what has that actually done for them as a people?? Comparing India to China alone. Look at the condition of those economies? China is more highest populated country in the world and can not boast of the same number of book smart people as india can but check out the two countries and their place in the big picture alone. Book Smarts falls under Intelligence but is not all there is to intelligence.

Who told you so? Chinese are probably the largest group of academic immigrants to the US. If anything the chinese have a much larger and better educated middle class than India.
Kobojunkie
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #22 on: October 21, 2007, 02:27 AM »

Quote from: davidylan on October 21, 2007, 02:14 AM
Who told you so? Chinese are probably the largest group of academic immigrants to the US. If anything the chinese have a much larger and better educated middle class than India.


China
Literacy: definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 90.9%
male: 95.1%
female: 86.5% (2000 census) 


India

Literacy: definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 61%
male: 73.4%
female: 47.8% (2001 census) 


Quote
Comparing India to China alone. Look at the condition of those economies? China is highest populated country in the world and can not boast of the same number of book smart people as india

Quote from: davidylan on October 21, 2007, 02:02 AM
Kobojunkie, Asians and Indians (i guess they are the same) score the highest on aptitude tests of any racial group . . . do we assume that whites are less intelligent than Asians?


I did not say that there are more educated people in India than in China, I said and as I repeat up there and according to your own post earlier, the indians have more book smarts than the chinese.
davidylan (m)
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #23 on: October 21, 2007, 02:32 AM »

On what basis do you claim that there are more book smarts in India than in china? What does it mean to be "book smart"?
Kobojunkie
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #24 on: October 21, 2007, 02:33 AM »

From my own observation and experience and I wait to be proven wrong on that.

Check this article

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Burnette/?p=125
davidylan (m)
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #25 on: October 21, 2007, 02:39 AM »

that doesnt say very much.
Kobojunkie
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #26 on: October 21, 2007, 02:44 AM »

Quote
Quality of graduates


Although his study did not cover the question of the quality of the graduates, Wadhwa cited evidence in his testimony that "all available data indicates that the vast majority of Indian and Chinese graduates are not close to the standards of US graduates". In particular, he says, the Chinese educational focus is on quantity vs. quality. Duke researcher, Ben Rissing says that the number of technical schools in China actually fell from 4098 to 2884 in the 1999-2004 period, and the number of teachers and staff at these institutions fell 24%.

India is fairing a little better, but all is not rosy there either:

India’s most respected educational institution is the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT). Over the years, it has graduated many successful entrepreneurs and leaders. Anecdotal evidence indicates that IIT graduates are exceptional, but so are the graduates of top US. schools. Biomedical Engineering Professor Barry Myers says that he has always been impressed with IIT graduates to come to study in the US. But these students are only as good as the average American students that he teaches at Duke.

Apparently two problems they’re having are a weaker infrastructure, and a private sector which is recruiting away their faculty.

Of course, China and India are not standing still; they’re taking steps to increase their graduation numbers and quality. The most recent figures are for 2004, but some preliminary data from 2005 indicates significant increases in graduation rates for engineers. So this is not an invitation to be complacent.

 

This is what I have come to believe, again based on experience and observation
davidylan (m)
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #27 on: October 21, 2007, 02:49 AM »

the comparison is between the quality of US graduates and Indian or chinese graduates. Hardly anything to suggest there are more book smarts in india than china.

Would Latinos be less intelligent than blacks since we do better than them anyway?
Kobojunkie
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #28 on: October 21, 2007, 02:51 AM »

Quote from: davidylan on October 21, 2007, 02:49 AM
the comparison is between the quality of US graduates and Indian or chinese graduates. Hardly anything to suggest there are more book smarts in india than china.

Would Latinos be less intelligent than blacks since we do better than them anyway?

I would think that is what this is about ?? Book Smarts , in this case, Quality VS Quantity ??

I am not sure I can say for sure that Blacks do better than Latinos. Have no information to show that at all.
davidylan (m)
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #29 on: October 21, 2007, 03:10 AM »

it doesnt make any difference. Usually for those you consider less book smart, they do a lot better when they are exposed to advanced techniques than they had been used to in their home countries. I've been more impressed with the Chinese professors and postdocs than the indians to be honest.

Those chinese guys just know so much you wonder how a human brain could have stored all that information.
Kobojunkie
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #30 on: October 21, 2007, 12:34 PM »

Quote from: davidylan on October 21, 2007, 03:10 AM
it doesnt make any difference. Usually for those you consider less book smart, they do a lot better when they are exposed to advanced techniques than they had been used to in their home countries. I've been more impressed with the Chinese professors and postdocs than the indians to be honest.

Those chinese guys just know so much you wonder how a human brain could have stored all that information.


I don't know what you mean but like I have been saying all along,  book smarts has little to do with intelligence. Intelligence is not about being able to reharsh what you read ,  know ,  it is about being able to apply what you know to improve your life/situation.

Take for instance Africa, as a whole we have so many people in that continent who are excellent in their fields as well. Go anywhere in the world and you will find african's who excell in their fields but has that knowledge been applied in africa?? Many of our leaders can boast of college education in one school or another abroad. Has it ever meant that because they are graduated with a 4.0 from some school abroad means they are the best candidate for the position?? Like I have said all along BookSmarts is one thing but when it comes down to what Dawson is speaking of, He is talking of more. I myself have met quite a few Chinese people who I can say are smarter than their indian counterparts. I mean sure there are those who have to break the mold but in general, I have not met quite a lot of them.

Quote
intelligence - the ability to comprehend; to understand and profit from experienceability, power - possession of the qualities (especially mental qualities) required to do something or get something done; "danger heightened his powers of discrimination"
brainpower, learning ability, mental capacity, mentality, wit, brain - mental ability; "he's got plenty of brains but no common sense"
breadth, largeness, comprehensiveness - the capacity to understand a broad range of topics; "a teacher must have a breadth of knowledge of the subject"; "a man distinguished by the largeness and scope of his views"
wendymanda
Re: Blacks Less Intelligent Than White People Says Nobel Laurette
« #31 on: October 21, 2007, 04:30 PM »

@ Kobojunkiue, you are saying that intelligence is not book smart but how quickly a person can acclimatize.
If this is what your getting at then basically, intelligence is how people survive in new environments. So the gene sequencing and coding and other scientific terminology is basically to find out survival of the fittest. Since it is himan nature to find a way to survive through anything I still have to deny the claim that in a decade a gene for 'intelligence' or survival will be found.
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