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otokx (m)
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there should be a clear separation of religion and government to achieve unity of purpose
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exu (m)
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personally i don't agree with the idea of organised religion, simply for the fact that every religion, bar hinduism, says that the next religion is inferior, this in turn breeds the hatred that you see throughout the world today...
people also forget that most religions came about at a time when 'politics' wasn't as it is today...religion was politics, it was a way of dividing the people, oppressing people and generally keeping the people in their place...
religion and politics should always be kept separate, no one should ever have the beliefs of someone else enforced upon them...
p.s.
i can't believe that someone attempted to use israel as an example of a functioning 'religious' state...
israel was founded as a 'jewish' homeland, to the detriment of the 'native' arabs, who were not jewish; this has created one of the world's biggest problems (for those of you don't watch the news)...
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joftech (m)
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There is still an imbroglio today over the constitution of Iraq thanks to religion.
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Greatpeter (m)
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The two should be separate entities.
And that's why I am part of the movement clamouring for removal of "Sharia" legal penal code from our constitution.
It's strictly for Muslim faithfuls for God's sake.
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Seun (m)
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The problem with that is that Islam as a religion, like the biblical old testament Jewish religion, is tightly tied to the government. Just as their are laws in the old testament bible, there are laws that are part and parcel of Islam and those laws are known as Sharia. So that's one of the major differences between Islam and Christianity and why Islamic states find it difficult to separate the two.
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Greatpeter (m)
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Why putting it in our constitution is my great concern.
Why not in their state's constitution or whatever.
A friend opened hid lap top and showed me in the constitution because he has it stored there.
It's irritating.
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kodewrita (m)
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@exu religion is not politics. You would only say that if you do not believe in GOD (no offense meant). While some may consider religion as just ritual or even a minor aspect of culture that should be relegated to sundays or whatever day of the week your religion chooses. the fact still remains that science can't prove a God does not exist. The crises in the world only comes when people try to use religion as a cover for their dastardly acts. The Crusades was just a cover for poor european knights to replenish their estates, Jihad was and still remains a political weapon. As for the jews, I sympathise with the fact that they feel the need for a homeland after being despised all over the world, the same goes for gypsies in Romania and other migrant minorities in the world with no place to call a home. they did what Hitler and the west forced them to do. they carved out land in palestine and as to isreal being a jewish nation, that is a not entirely true, there are sizable arab, druse and samaritan minorities in the nation.
@greatpeter if they don't foist it on you, i don't see why you should bother. most of its precepts are not entirely repulsive(to tell the truth, preventing alcohol use is not entirely bad, the costs outweigh the gains). They are simply reinstating what existed before the british came. what we should look for is "sharia with a human face."; no cutting of hands and legs, preferably solitary confinement for 3 months.
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Seun (m)
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If God, through the Sharia, has ordered Muslims to cut hands and legs of thieves and stone adulterers, who are you to suggest that they should restrict their punishments to 3 months solitary confinement?
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joftech (m)
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When we look at all the 1st and 2nd world wars, they all happen as a result of religion undertone. I hope the current war on terrorism is not going in that direction too.
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kodewrita (m)
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@Seun It was just a suggestion. Obviously the institution of such a law is a deterrent. But leaders would also have to ensure they rule in a just manner to reduce poverty and ensure that the larger part of their people do not become thieves (who will cut the hands). In countries where Sharia is enforced, you can leave your car outside with the engine running and the keys in the ignition and still find it there, in lagos even a car that has been dead for long can have its tires removed before you turn your back. Security will definitely bring other benefits including investment.
@joftech religious undertones did not predominate in the world wars. Any religious undertones that existed were simply covers for armed robbery and military agression. The First world war was an attempt by prussian military leaders to achieve what they could not achieve in the academic or economic spheres (dominate the world.). The second world war was simply the result of improper conflict resolution of the first war. Hitler only used the persecution of Jews as an excuse to cover the mismanagement of the economy. Switzerland profited from accounts of dead jews and looted booty by Nazi generals. Otherwise why did Germany ally itself with Turkey (An islamic power) in the first world war and Japan (partly buddhist and partly shintoist.). Even Communist Russia was an ally at the early stages.
The current war on terrorism is obviously religious in nature. To compund the problems" One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."
@everyone I just discovered an example of separation of religion and state in the bible. God stipulated that hebrew kings were not to perform priestly duties like other nations. The king was to enforce the law, rule the people and lead them in battle.
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Seun (m)
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That's not separation of religion and state. It's separation of duties in a religious government. The King of Saudi Arabia is not an Imam!
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kodewrita (m)
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But he is revered as custodian of the two holy mosques and he is the de-facto Caliph of the muslim faith. An imam is simply someone who leads a muslim service and I have seen him leading one before (i mean the king preceding the current one.).
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drbigdaddyg (m)
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Lets fully concentrate on Nigeria. I have been able to observe from your posts so far that the impact or contributions of the "subject" are variable with countries.
Considering the situation in Nigeria, I feel we need to seperate Religion from Government. This is a country that is very sensitive to religion, which has suffered so many losses as a result of this religion of a thing. Let anyone who wants to worship sharia or christainity do, even to its extremism as long as it will keep him and others in peace. Thats my stand.
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Jakumo (m)
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Nigeria is theoretically a secular state with a clear constitutional delineation between church and state, and yet on the last Friday of every month, 5-hour traffic jams and fatal accidents are created by vehicles and teeming crowds of worshipers at The Redeemed Christian Camp along the highway that is arguably the country's primary commercial artery - the Lagos-Ibadan expressway.
I doubt if attendees at an Ogun worshipers convention would be permitted to block that same road for even ten minutes, talk less of 5 hours every month. Evidently some religions are more separated from the state than others, in our god-fearing country.
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kodewrita (m)
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Christianity is intrinsically peaceful and as such most of those who fought in all those conflicts back then were motivated by other reasons besides religion. We know the bulk of the people on both sides of the conflict were uneducated and willing followers of misguided people who interpreted for them and hence controlled them. We should guided by our religions but we should not enforce them on people who don't believe them.
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drbigdaddyg (m)
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Yes.
The problem is that some religions are violent, some people believe they will have more blessings if they kill people from other religions. How can God want killings, is he now the author of confusions and violence? We better use our common sense than always depending on visions from prophets.
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kodewrita (m)
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I believe you mean common sense.
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drbigdaddyg (m)
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Thanks. I mean that.
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sage (m)
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Many people here still have not answered one fundamental question, if u suscribe to a mixture of state and religion, would u agree to be run by religious rules of another religion in the country?
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Jakumo (m)
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Sage, if I understand your question, you are asking if Nigeria can be ruled under a hybrid form of governance which combines elements of democracy with religious theocracy. My answer is an emphatic NO, as such an indeterminate form of rule will only engender anarchy by allowing semi-literate mullahs or preachers to have a free hand in interpreting civil law in the courts.
In other words, a hybrid democracy \ theocracy mutant government will inevitably degenerate into a pure Taliban-style terror state run by savage hordes of "enforcers", as is indeed the case in some northern parts of Nigeria right now. Democracy works, and, as the old saying goes : " If it works, then don't fix it."
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alheri (f)
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Nigeria is theoretically a secular state with a clear constitutional delineation between church and state, and yet on the last Friday of every month, 5-hour traffic jams and fatal accidents are created by vehicles and teeming crowds of worshipers at The Redeemed Christian Camp along the highway that is arguably the country's primary commercial artery - the Lagos-Ibadan expressway.
I doubt if attendees at an Ogun worshipers convention would be permitted to block that same road for even ten minutes, talk less of 5 hours every month. Evidently some religions are more separated from the state than others, in our god-fearing country.
Am just seeing this. Everyone is guity of this so lets not point fingers. Try passing through the central area of abuja where the national mosque is situated every friday of the month and see if this is possible. This has now become a haven for theives who snatch peoples stuff if they dare leave there car windows down. |
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joftech (m)
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Am just seeing this. Everyone is guity of this so lets not point fingers. Try passing through the central area of Abuja where the national mosque is situated every friday of the month and see if this is possible. This has now become a haven for theives who snatch peoples stuff if they dare leave there car windows down. Government must be able to come up with measures to divert traffics from these religious centers from disturbing motorists. It's kind of wrong for these things to be going on like this, it think it's a stupid oversight on the part of government and those that have created those situations. |
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alheri (f)
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I agree with you joftech. This has been going on for years and its obvious these problems are here to stay. The government doesnt even have to come into this. These religious organizations should put in more effort to reduce the stress and traffic for innocent passersby. Afterall,the bible says we should do unto others as we would have them do to us. We Nigerians are generally indisciplined. The other day someone had a party in my estate with total disregard for us residents. He brought the whole of Lagos and Ogun satat plus governor and one of them was silly enough to park his car right in front of our gate and he just disappeared. We were stranded in the house and my husband was ill and had to go get some drugs. It was terrible. So I believe it comes down to us as individuals having regard for our fellows.
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otokx (m)
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religion is another form of imperialism, it is used by those in power to deceive and dispossess their subjects.
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Jakumo (m)
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Otokx your assessment of religion is particularly true of Nigeria. The louder a Nigerian persuader proclaims his closeness to God, the tighter one needs to grip one's wallet.
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nferyn (m)
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Some quotes by Napoleon Bonaparte (who was crowned Emperor by the Pope). You'll catch my drift  Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich. |
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sage (m)
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The actual reason i feel religion should be seprated from govt is that religion is strongly associated with un-negotiable dogma, and if it is incoperated into govt, it generally pulls everything back even in a country with just one religion (which is not often the case). When u now add the element of diffrent religious beliefs clashing, then it would amount to shooting ur self in the foot.
People at times clamour blindly for the merging of the state and religion (esp the overly religious ones) without really thinking of the full implications. They seem to associate religious rule with rule by God and that is not usually the case. Countries that are under religiuous rule or are extremely religious tend to drift backward rather than forward. Nigeria is a good example. A country where everybody calls on God like they reverence him and are still the biggest set of thieves on earth. The Saudi mornachy is corrupt too. Their religiousness has not stopped some of the royals from stealing their money too.
I have found out one thing that mixing religion and govt does though, IT REPRESSES ACCOUNTABILITY
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Jakumo (m)
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Sage you have distilled the main arguments against theocracy with greater precision than any other post under this topic. If you were a trial lawyer, anyone pitted against you would have a tough job. Excellent post, sir.
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