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britgirlee (f)
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almond  every time you never fail to deliver  |
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britgirlee (f)
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netose you made intresting points As Ive quoted every one has perceived this title how they wish to view it and have made in a lot of cases very strong responses . Nwando gave hers from her angle. It would be fair to say no matter how much this topic is debated there will always be conflicts of intrest  |
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britgirlee (f)
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[quote author=debosky - The key here is for you the woman to select a man who you are capable of submitting to and the man selecting a spouse capable of submitting to him as well. Second principle - we are to submit to each other and love each other - unconditionally, whether in good or bad times, yielding to the person more skilled in a particular are as necessary. BUT when there is a stalemate and an agreement cannot be achieved, one person must be allowed to take the decision in the end, and that is the head, refer to principle #1 Note that there can never be true submission unless there is a clash/opposition of wills, the key is each person knowing when to give in. debosky submit can again be interpreted in other ways maybe 'respect ' would of been my given choice of word but this is my opinion. otherwise i with you there I don't agree though with the point made 'when there is a stale mate i.e an argument the man has the over all say and its final  because he is the so called 'head of the household' every one has a voice and has the right to be heard if both parties respected loved each other etc etc etc they would find a happy medium.  |
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debosky (m)
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@ britgirl
I never said anyone should be denied their right/opportunity to speak, but in the case of a stalemate what happens? Someone has to take the final decision at some point, you cannot keep going back and forth when there is no agreement.
'If they love each other they will find a happy medium'
You are either highly romantic in your thinking or very naive or both.
There will be cases where the 'happy medium' will be reached, but there will always be instances when someone has to take a decision on behalf of the family as a unit when no consensus is reached - that is why you have CEOs or other business leaders with whom the buck stops after some point.
Like I mentioned, submission (not respect - respect means giving someone else's opinions/actions equal consideration and thats it) is necessary, you need to get to a point where you give up some right of yours to another, freely given by you not coerced. Since submission goes both ways, each partner must do this at some point or the other- that is the reality
I don't regard being the 'head of the household' as a chance to lord it over someone else or enjoy benefits of having my way. It is a serious and weighty trust placed into my hands - responsibility for a household, answering to God on whatever happens within it.
Submission is not easy, neither is it compatible with the fallen man's basic nature - it is something we learn from Christ by learning from his example, and learning true love from the Father.
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nwando
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@ britgirl
I never said anyone should be denied their right/opportunity to speak, but in the case of a stalemate what happens? Someone has to take the final decision at some point, you cannot keep going back and forth when there is no agreement.
'If they love each other they will find a happy medium'
You are either highly romantic in your thinking or very naive or both.
There will be cases where the 'happy medium' will be reached, but there will always be instances when someone has to take a decision on behalf of the family as a unit when no consensus is reached - that is why you have CEOs or other business leaders with whom the buck stops after some point.
Like I mentioned, submission (not respect - respect means giving someone else's opinions/actions equal consideration and thats it) is necessary, you need to get to a point where you give up some right of yours to another, freely given by you not coerced. Since submission goes both ways, each partner must do this at some point or the other- that is the reality
I don't regard being the 'head of the household' as a chance to lord it over someone else or enjoy benefits of having my way. It is a serious and weighty trust placed into my hands - responsibility for a household, answering to God on whatever happens within it.
Submission is not easy, neither is it compatible with the fallen man's basic nature - it is something we learn from Christ by learning from his example, and learning true love from the Father. Thank you!. I totally get you. The strong independent women will not get this no matter how hard they try. people speak from their experiences. The "strong independent" black women in America are "strong"dependent on welfare and alone. Too much strength is not a good thing |
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almondjoy (f)
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We can run around all we want. Men will continue to seek dominance and women will continue to seek equality. Any principle or fantasy that propagates gender inequality--including those of the bible have no place in my life. Sorry. I am happy I attract those who work with me in that area and that is really all that matters. To the rest of the women and men folk all I can say is goodluck. Find your kind so you have less conflicts. As you can see, I have no desire to look further!  This pot has found it's Black Nigerian lid. Thank you lord. A very confident and inspirational lid, if I may add.  |
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nwando
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bia almond. Is that my brother's hand on your shoulders? I can recognise those strong independent male,Chinedu-like hands anywhere! |
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davidylan (m)
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I don't regard being the 'head of the household' as a chance to lord it over someone else or enjoy benefits of having my way. It is a serious and weighty trust placed into my hands - responsibility for a household, answering to God on whatever happens within it.
Submission is not easy, neither is it compatible with the fallen man's basic nature - it is something we learn from Christ by learning from his example, and learning true love from the Father.
bia, you have spoken for us. there is nothing to add. Almondjoy fine small o! thy sins are forgiven thee.  |
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almondjoy (f)
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bia almond. Is that my brother's hand on your shoulders? I can recognise those strong independent male,Chinedu-like hands anywhere! You get am! One raised right and treats me like an equal and his better half not as some "head of the household"!!! How can I ever disrespect such a God-sent? Impossible. The ones I will gladly disrespect are the "head of the household" kinds. You know yourselves--looking for evidence and statistics of abuse. Or the hear ye, hear ye kind! |
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debosky (m)
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people always want to have things on their terms - both men and women
God's instructions give us a clear model of how the home/family unit should be structured and the way man and woman should relate to each other
this may not fit into the humanistic/ women's lib/equality movements that are the fad today (which will be overtaken by something else later)
or with the male dominance/total subversion of other's wills that some people prefer. . .
but it remains the divine order to things, It is the ultimate submission to put aside your own will and follow the Father's, not easy but highly beneficial
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nwando
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You get am! One raised right and treats me like an equal and his better half not as some "head of the household"!!! How can I ever disrespect such a God-sent? Impossible. The ones I will gladly disrespect are the "head of the household" kinds. You know yourselves--looking for evidence and statistics of abuse. Or the hear ye, hear ye kind! I don't know how you tend to lump all Nigerian men into this chauvanistic dump and yet you married an understanding one. How did that happen All women,Christians and heathens want a man to treat them right. The difference is that one uses the Bible as her guide the other uses whatever they prefer. Make no mistake,no Christian woman is running around with her head bowed down. I doubt if unbelieving marriages are happier than those of Christians. The same bible you choose to make fun of talks of men loving their wives as their own bodies. That is powerful. The Bible verses should not be taken in isolation A man who loves his wife as Christ loves the Church will not abuse her because Christ is not abusive to the Church. Any man who shouts submission,submission to his wife has control issues and that is a different topic altogether. There are millions and millions of intelligent professional Christian wives and many of them can even chat with complete strangers on nairaland. You give this picture of a Christian woman who chooses to see her man as the head of the household as some brainless pitiful being. You are so far from the truth. |
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davidylan (m)
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@ nwando, you hit the nail on the head. No matter how hard the "strong independent" women here try to spin this even unbelievers and atheists males still regard themselves as the head of their homes. It doesnt take bandying the bible around to remind us that God has designed things that way from the begining.
Real men see their women as equals and not subordinates, real women don't need to flaunt their "success, strength and independence" in their man's face either. . .
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presido1 (m)
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Real men see their women as equals and not subordinates, real women don't need to flaunt their "success, strength and independence" in their man's face either. . .
Word!!! but at the same time somebody must captian the ship otherwise distress calls will be going off every now and then. |
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omoge (f)
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umm, quite eye opening . all good @ everyone . |
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naijaking1
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Good job everybody.
Can we look at the issue from a purely sociological point of view? The head of household, head of the company, or head of anything is not an opportunity for someone lord it over everyother persons.
It's actually a position of highest responsibilty in the identified group.
Groups do better when they have a 'leader' head of house hold or whatever you call it.
In reality, someone to take responsibility/credits/failures of the group; so the pilot leads the airplane crew, the surgeon leads the operating room, the judge leads the court, the captain the ship, and yes the husband(or the alpha partner-for gays) leads the household.
Even animals have male leaders of the pack who usually give their lives defending and protecting their youngs and females. Imagine where one group of animals(Baboons) with an alpha male leader (silver back) encounters another group where the alpha male shares responsibility with an alpha female.
If the decision to mount an instantenous attack on an invading group depends on consultation with a co-leading alpha female, you would understand that the later group falls into a big disadvantage.
This is just an example, because we are not animals, but since many scientific inferrences have been drawn from animal studies, it makes sense to contemplete this issue from a primate's point of view.
Religious, cultural, and anthropo-sociological factors mandate the man (with his superior and aggressive physical nature) to head the family. The woman, for the same reason nutures and nourishes the family, she is the heart of the family.
The head cannot exist without the heart and vis-visa.
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nwando
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Good job everybody.
Can we look at the issue from a purely sociological point of view? The head of household, head of the company, or head of anything is not an opportunity for someone lord it over everyother persons.
It's actually a position of highest responsibilty in the identified group.
Groups do better when they have a 'leader' head of house hold or whatever you call it.
In reality, someone to take responsibility/credits/failures of the group; so the pilot leads the airplane crew, the surgeon leads the operating room, the judge leads the court, the captain the ship, and yes the husband(or the alpha partner-for gays) leads the household.
Even animals have male leaders of the pack who usually give their lives defending and protecting their youngs and females. Imagine where one group of animals(Baboons) with an alpha male leader (silver back) encounters another group where the alpha male shares responsibility with an alpha female.
If the decision to mount an instantenous attack on an invading group depends on consultation with a co-leading alpha female, you would understand that the later group falls into a big disadvantage.
This is just an example, because we are not animals, but since many scientific inferrences have been drawn from animal studies, it makes sense to contemplete this issue from a primate's point of view.
Religious, cultural, and anthropo-sociological factors mandate the man (with his superior and aggressive physical nature) to head the family. The woman, for the same reason nutures and nourishes the family, she is the heart of the family.
The head cannot exist without the heart and vis-visa.
we can argue till the namas come home,but you have it all summarized. There is no structure any where that'll function without a clear cut head. Someone has to be a leader,that doesn't mean the other key players are idiots. A good leader can only succeed when he recognizes that the other participants are severally vital and just as important. But somebody has to wear the pants (as they say) I worked in a practice some years back where the lead doctors were 2 white guys. They were the big shots But it was clear who the "bigger" guy was of the 2 of them. It was clear who did the hiring,the firing,who signed the checks,authorized renovations,who the staff basically reported to,it was not a secret who basically ran the business end of things, the other though an equal partner,came in and saw patients like all the other little associates and went home,and they are still partners till this date. Why is it that when we see gay couples,males or females,you don't need a soothsayer to point out who is the "male" and who's the "female". There can never be 2 captains in a ship,that ship would sink. Even an aircraft has a captain and a co-captain. Churches have a Pastor and associate pastors Countries have presidents and vice presidents Colleges have a president (Vice Chancelor) and several vice presidents (Deputy V.C) For a marriage to function effectively,that same order must exist or there'll be katakata. |
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almondjoy (f)
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Let me concentrate where our Dear God's name is not used in vain here. I am trying so hard to avoid these "choir masters". @ Nwando I am not saying all Nigerian men are chauvanistic---but close enough meaning most. Even here on Naiaraland--there is the most disgusting double standards exhibited when it comes to how male and females are presented or responded to. A very true representation of Nigeria and African communities if I may add. If it is not disgraceful for men, why should it be for women? Even most responses from female personas convey life long impressions of abuse and oppression in the almighty name of religion and culture. No confidence in themselves and always looking for validation from others. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh! Who wants to be around those kinds of people? But will turn around and insult others for being independent and less needy. African American Communities have long realized this and are doing their best to fight gender inequality. Many have opted for single parenthood or re-constituted marriages to find some peace in relationships. You hear some mention how "baby" mamas have 20 children for 50 different men and think it is disgraceful. Most condemning here may come from polygamous homes with at least 50 children from 50 women. Or may have had children out of wedlock littering the globe. What is it that states that it is okay for men to get away with certain things as privileges and women no? Let's just say I attract people who are like me. I have never never wasted my time with people who think in opposite directions as myself and vice versa. So to go with what everyone has agreed on --"find that lid to your pot" to avoid any problems. Religious people attract religious people, free thinking individuals attract free thinking individuals, doormats attract slave drivers and so on and so forth. So in the final analysis we all can observe who heads to "divorce court" first! |
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almondjoy (f)
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Thank you naijaking1. A sociological angle is in order here. Getting sick of these preachers here. Like religion has provided any logical answers to human problems. Even adds to them. Please can y'all save your religious weapons for any spiritual problems that may arise in the future like I have? @naijaking1 So a relationship between just 2 people even with children is a "group" needing a CEO?---  Wonders! Some of you are comparing a factory or an organization to a relationship between just 2 people? Just 2 people!!!!!!! A man and a woman with 4 children at the maximum. Rocket science. Is a family unit supposed to be a bureaucracy? What is so complicated in a relationship that there has to be a head? Finances? Raising Children? Living arrangements? Career choices? End of Life Matters? or Dealing with relatives? These things can only be controlled by "a head of the household--that should be one person only---the man"--In what kind of stalemate biko nu? Na parliament or politics? You see, most of you sound like you grew up in several chaotic environments with a lot of wives, children, intermarriages, polygamous fiefdoms, religious harems and what have you--needing some kind of mini-government. There is a perceived absence of the notion of equilibrium having been on some kinds of psychological see-saws in most of the waking moments, as children in the playground of life. Some sound like they have have been so used to living in disorderly set-ups that you really need a "head" to quell uprisings around you like refugees in concentration camps! With all due respects oh---- --no insults intended. That is what I perceive and pardon me if I may be wrong. Well,-------- if it make you guys function better in your bedrooms----it is okay then. I am glad in my personal relationships--both parties are equal partners---with 50% shareholding benefits as the starting point. Sometimes 70-30, 60-40, 80-20, 90-10% to the better person's favour! Works better for me in the bedroom too! Don't do "masters" !!!! We discuss things at length or quickly depending on the nature of the problem and yield sensibly to whoever has the better idea--since both parties have "brains"----------- MALE OR FEMALE. Is it disrespectful to have equal partners in a relationship? I think more resentment and disrespect comes when there is a dichotomy in a relationship. That can only work if both parties agree to such arrangement like the "biblical' folks. That is okay then. Can never work for me--because that is not how I was raised. Not in a Gestapo polygamous camp. No one is saying anything about bossing the other around or getting into out-musculing contests/arm wrestling contests. What sane man or woman who loves his or her spouse will go about taunting and boasting about things accomplished to the benefit of both? --------------UNLESS YOU HAVE BEEN CURSED NOT TO EVER SMELL PROGRESS IN THIS LIFETIME Like I said before--a relationship with disrespect and abuse is only living on borrowed time in ma neck ot the woods. That relationship was long damaged and it is only a matter of time before it hits the grave. [b]Disrespect in any relationship is a late sign of a doomed relationship. Most sensible creatures would have overcome that by the first year of the relationship maximum as a getting to know you affair. By the time I start disrespecting my partner at this stage of our relationship--it means water to pass garri and very little hope left to salvage the "see finish situation". Some find ways to overcome that and others split. I doubt I can ever go back where I have practically thrashed the fellow for the whole world to laugh at. For what? Better to start allover--for he can never be whole in my eyes ever again--can't even forgive myself for that.  Thank heavens sweetie'mmmmmm does not give me reason to. Everyone knows that is not going to work in any relationship ----common sense tells us that--Where the man or woman calls the shots ALWAYS!!!! Unless there is a pre-established code of "biblical or traditional" contract. Then rock on then! Then why are we debating the issue? Everyone knows what he r she can handle individually. The problem starts and ends when you go trying to change people into what they are not---forgeting adults seldom change. For example I do not do the traditional/village/religious/cultural dudes, since I know that can never last but one week. Born agains--or any type of religious fanatic---off limits. I leave those for those who are of like minds. I can respect that. Once I hear or find out that your father was a chief or from a polygamous home--I shut all ma doors and tell you Merry Xmas in advance and off I go. The one reason I dislike anything polygamy is the fact that it is the epitome of gender inequality in Afrian culture and most children who grow up in such enviroment are damaged goods. Most of the guys raised by polygamous fathers and mothers never respect themselves or women the hook up with, Most of the ladies from such an environment never value themselves--always looking for a "father figure" they had to share with about 100 others or never saw!!! What a life of an ngwo-gwo soup!!!! So I choose cosmopolitan/sophsticated/open-minded/confident/exposed non-polygamously raised dudes----------for ma "beautiful, independent, black, female" behind so ma relationships can grow without all that rubbish of who is head and who is tail. I know where to look and how to look for successful relationships. And from what I see everyone is capable of doing the same as suits their needs. CASED CLOSED------------TO YOUR TENT OH ISRAEL!!!! FIND YA LID TO YA POT Y'AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALL!!!! |
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almondjoy (f)
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@britgirlee Thank you for addressing debosky's stalemate issues. You could not have put it clearer in so few words. I think I have found another angle to get off this stalemate track of a debate. I have a simple question and it is to Debosky who brought the idea up. Anyother male or female of like mind can jolly well answer the question too if he or she can shed more light on this puzzle. Under what kind of conditions can you have a stalemate in a relationship for heaven's sake? Please give us examples to show us what in the world is running around in your mind. A stalemate? Could it be what to have for breakfast, or lunch or dinner? Please share--for I am dying to know what kinds of issues I should head to the supreme court for concerning "stalemates" in ma relationships. Stalemate? What is that? |
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britgirlee (f)
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Almond j girl hi how are you, its frustrating. But I can see you are giving your own strong debates and having a voice
And that is just it every one on this debate is entitled to their own opinions, views and voice and this should be respected.
If you agree or not you have a voice to air your own opinions and i stress 'your'.
However I do find quoting the bible to back up your argument by some individuals ludicrous to misconstrue or misinterpreter the bible to back your argument begs belief please excuse the pun.
then use this to some what give sarcastic or in a couple of cases abusive comments
OUR ancestors lead us to believe that the woman is there to love and obey her husband i have stated before the word obey has been removed all over the world in marriage vows as it is seen as a sexist remark.
However if totally respect those that want to live by these rules I'm sure they will find if not have a partner to live up to their beliefs and expectations you could say love honer and 'obey'
So as the modern man or woman who choose to live their respected and loving relationships in harmony .
When posting this topic of debate i was aware of the controversial issues that would be posted,
Its an intresting topic lets keep it that way
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en-fuse (m)
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This is an issue of hormones, u follow the lead of yours. It cud be conventional or a twist of the fluid that runs within your gender. What ever it is, everybody has a significant half, as the saying goes "even a mad man has a lover". So go out there and grab what you are good for. It's just amazing some people don't get this. |
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almondjoy (f)
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This is an issue of hormones, u follow the lead of yours. It cud be conventional or a twist of the fluid that runs within your gender. What ever it is, everybody has a significant half, as the saying goes "even a mad man has a lover". So go out there and grab what you are good for. It's just amazing some people don't get this. I think "we" finally got it. The debate has come to a winding end. Almond j girl hi how are you, its frustrating.
But I can see you are giving your own strong debates and having a voice
And that is just it every one on this debate is entitled to their own opinions, views and voice and this should be respected.
If you agree or not you have a voice to air your own opinions and i stress 'your'.
However I do find quoting the bible to back up your argument by some individuals ludicrous to misconstrue or misinterpreter the bible to back your argument begs belief please excuse the pun.
then use this to some what give sarcastic or in a couple of cases abusive comments
OUR ancestors lead us to believe that the woman is there to love and obey her husband i have stated before the word obey has been removed all over the world in marriage vows as it is seen as a sexist remark.
However if totally respect those that want to live by these rules I'm sure they will find if not have a partner to live up to their beliefs and expectations you could say love honer and 'obey'
So as the modern man or woman who choose to live their respected and loving relationships in harmony .
When posting this topic of debate i was aware of the controversial issues that would be posted,
Its an intresting topic lets keep it that way
Yes, it can get frustrating. But hey--that will always happen when you have conflicts of interests. But should "strong independent black women" be intimidated by that? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Especially if you pay your own bills--with your partner in "Equality"!  There is enough frustrations to go around and who cannot handle it can get out of the kitchen like someone mentioned earlier. As for that Bible crap to promote gender inequality--that can fly to those who which to succumb to that kind of mess. I have no problem with that as long as they do not bring it to ma doorstep. As you can see, they usually end up marrying themselves and the first to hit the divorce courts with all the holy holy mess. I read my Bible like any other literature book and take what makes sense to me to enrich ma live---not follow blindly like some primitive bat. So britgirlee, I am good. Thanks for the wonderful debate. Please think of more interesting topics so we can slug it out! See you around. Cherio! |
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btayo1 (m)
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@ Poster; Is this to say that women are not intimidated by Strong Financially independant Nigerian Men; Would the women in the forum say that they have not come across any of there female friends discarding a guy because is he's ready made. The Nigerian Man; a known fact is not easily intimidated by anybody- ask other african nationals or african american, carribean men. The bottomline in any relationship is the depth of love and mutual respect amongst the couple; if this exist then both partners will work for common good without anybody feeling belittled. I have seen alot of cases where the wife is the breadwinner and the family units still functioning fine, It a bils down to the individuals involved. The more successful a woman is - the higher the bride price
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davidylan (m)
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there really was no debate . . . just 7 endless pages of whining and building of castles in the air. coupled with a few women letting their hormones lose on those who dare say the opposite.
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Arnold1 (m)
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there really was no debate . . . just 7 endless pages of whining and building of castles in the air. coupled with a few women letting their hormones lose on those who dare say the opposite.
Excellent summation. Couldn't put it any better |
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I-man (m)
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Yes,most men are intimidated by women who are financially independent and successful in their career.
However,the cliched strong,independent Black woman is not the mot juste for the above but rather,an expression that is usually applied to aggressive,malcontent,bone-headed women who have no achievements to speak of in life but whose "strenght" lie in a need to play up to the exaggerated stereotype of a no-nonsense modern chick .
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omoge (f)
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there really was no debate . . . just 7 endless pages of whining and building of castles in the air. coupled with a few women letting their hormones lose on those who dare say the opposite.
hehehe |
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grafikdon
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there really was no debate . . . just 7 endless pages of whining and building of castles in the air. coupled with a few women letting their hormones lose on those who dare say the opposite.
GBAM!  |
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britgirlee (f)
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this debate is over almond girl ended it on an even kill yesterday, and every one brought something to the table. anything posted after is somewhat questionable as the person posting insisted on giving irrelevant posts despite being ignored or some what tolerated he knows who is is. his insistence to keep posting what one would say a nonsense and em barresing to read threads.the question we all put to him is why he couldn't just leave the post topic and search other forums but he insisted on staying. But hey,,,,,guys new posts are waiting for your replies and thank you for the input you've given , |
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davidylan (m)
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this debate is over almond girl ended it on an even kill yesterday, and every one brought something to the table. anything posted after is somewhat questionable as the person posting insisted on giving irrelevant posts despite being ignored or some what tolerated he knows who is is. his insistence to keep posting what one would say a nonsense and em barresing to read threads.the question we all put to him is why he couldn't just leave the post topic and search other forums but he insisted on staying. But hey,,,,,guys new posts are waiting for your replies and thank you for the input you've given , hahaha na so e pain you reach? pele o. Like i said earlier, its not important that you acknowledge posts, maybe you think i was actually interested in the gobbledeegook you had to say . . . sorry, i got the responses i needed from more serious people interested in a banter and not those throwing their toys out of their prams like spoilt children and then thinking they were ignoring me . . like i bothered. and who are the "all" who put a question to me? you better speak for ur intolerant self. I continue to drum it into your water-filled ears . . . the forum is open to everyone, you have no right to tell us where and what to post. Not happy, please open a private blog for you and your offspring. And when next you ask for "intelligent" debate . . . make sure you can at least spell. Your grammer skills are atrocious for someone who likes to pass herself off as independent and intellectual. |
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almondjoy (f)
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Yes,most men are intimidated by women who are financially independent and successful in their career.
However,the cliched strong,independent Black woman is not the mot just for the above but rather,an expression that is usually applied to aggressive,malcontent,bone-headed women who have no achievements to speak of in life but whose "strenght" lie in a need to play up to the exaggerated stereotype of a no-nonsense modern chick .
The first one to admit gracefully and honestly. Thank you very much. America is proud of you. I wonder what the difference is between the two sometimes though. there really was no debate . . . just 7 endless pages of whining and building of castles in the air. coupled with a few women letting their hormones lose on those who dare say the opposite.
Yes! Come to think if it, It is the time of the month. Plenty off "independent hormonal' woman left to show at this time. Think it is time to reach for my Bible for real. I smell "spiritual problems" coming ma way. this debate is over almond girl ended it on an even kill yesterday, and every one brought something to the table.anything posted after is somewhat questionable as the person posting insisted on giving irrelevant posts despite being ignored or some what tolerated he knows who is is. his insistence to keep posting what one would say a nonsense and em barresing to read threads.the question we all put to him is why he couldn't just leave the post topic and search other forums but he insisted on staying. But hey,,,,,guys new posts are waiting for your replies and thank you for the input you've given , Please do not encourage them. This debate is over. Yeah, almost everyone brought something to the table except some peeping toms. This thread is officially closed!!! Once again thanks britgirlee for an interesting topic. |
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