Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.

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olabowale (m)
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #640 on: December 15, 2007, 01:47 PM »

@Nwando and Omuwunmi: First, my Senior wife is in DC, right now. My younger is on
a journey. Neither have been to Nairaland.com. However, both know that I blog on it.
Sincerely, neither will entertain any conversation from a third party about me. My senior
wife was a widow of a prominent Nigerian. I still have room for two more wives. I do not
get involve in Muttah and I don't go into a relationship with the intention to divorce! Your
conversation with either woman will not be possible!

To Omuwunmi: Maybe I am Asewo as you have said. It has to be in my head, because I do
not perform adultery, and before I got married, there was no fornication in my life! Not because
I was never tempted at times, but God Almighty Allah provided all the defense mechanisms
to protect me from this evil actions: So I fast, regularly and often, and the fact is that most of
the people close to me, in my private life are serious Muslims! There is no room for me to stray!
Most importantly, I fear God in my own naive way. And Omuwunmi, I am very aware of HIV/AIDS!

My dear sister, how you come to your conclusion, blows my mind. I live in NYC. I am a very desirable
and successful man, with very deep pockets! There are women in NYC, and I do not have to look
elsewhere for pretty Black African, specifically Nigerian women! If you do not live in NYC or the
Northeast of the US, I will be wasting my time. I have a niece in Abuja who is named Omowunmi.
I just in the past 48 hours saw your name, and your email in your profile did not lead me to
believe that you are a Yoruba, anyway! I invited you in the same way I invited Pilgrim. Just because I
was not inviting Nwando, is based on my statement to her the day before.

I kind of come to NL this morning after prayer, with the hope of responding to Pilgrim and D-reloaded, and then
I saw your statement! Let me say this to you, I do not deny anything I say or do. This is the reason I will
try to do the best towards my soul. You got the wrong opinion, and you have mistaken big time. I thought
you were talking to somebody else until I read that you were responding to my quote. First are you a
pretty woman? I love my women to be exotically pretty and have self worth, with high quality of morality!

I am only interested in Trophy women, for marriage! Sincerely, fear God Almighty and suspection and
accusation are instruments of devils! Do not be too proud and arrogant about your evil deeds. To talk about
your involvement of illicit sex, drinking and smoking as if they are virtuous deeds, is a sign of being led astray!
Do not let the evildoer makes evil deeds seemingly honorable to you. There is nothing Islamic about being a
liberal Muslim, except in label only. Maybe it is one of the 73 sects. But there is no success in anything that God
is against! Okay, Omuwunmi, you are a Yoruba woman. Why are you not bashful about the name and its
offending the sensibility of others? Just for the record, I do not want you. I am certain that the Holy Prophet
would not have wanted your type anyway! My proof is that he never took any woman who offered herself!
OMUWUNMI
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #641 on: December 15, 2007, 01:54 PM »

Quote from: olabowale on December 15, 2007, 01:47 PM
@Nwando and Omuwunmi: First, my Senior wife is in DC, right now. My younger is on
a journey. Neither have been to Nairaland.com. However, both know that I blog on it.
Sincerely, neither will entertain any conversation from a third party about me. My senior
wife was a widow of a prominent Nigerian. I still have room for two more wives. I do not
get involve in Muttah and I don't go into a relationship with the intention to divorce! Your
conversation with either woman will not be possible!

To Omuwunmi: Maybe I am Asewo as you have said. It has to be in my head, because I do
not perform adultery, and before I got married, there was no fornication in my life! Not because
I was never tempted at times, but God Almighty Allah provided all the defense mechanisms
to protect me from this evil actions: So I fast, regularly and often, and the fact is that most of
the people close to me, in my private life are serious Muslims! There is no room for me to stray!
Most importantly, I fear God in my own naive way. And Omuwunmi, I am very aware of HIV/AIDS!

My dear sister, how you come to your conclusion, blows my mind. I live in NYC. I am a very desirable
and successful man, with very deep pockets! There are women in NYC, and I do not have to look
elsewhere for pretty Black African, specifically Nigerian women! If you do not live in NYC or the
Northeast of the US, I will be wasting my time. I have a niece in Abuja who is named Omowunmi.
I just in the past 48 hours saw your name, and your email in your profile did not lead me to
believe that you are a Yoruba, anyway! I invited you in the same way I invited Pilgrim. Just because I
was not inviting Nwando, is based on my statement to her the day before.

I kind of come to Nairaland this morning after prayer, with the hope of responding to Pilgrim and D-reloaded, and then
I saw your statement! Let me say this to you, I do not deny anything I say or do. This is the reason I will
try to do the best towards my soul. You got the wrong opinion, and you have mistaken big time. I thought
you were talking to somebody else until I read that you were responding to my quote. First are you a
pretty woman? I love my women to be exotically pretty and have self worth, with high quality of morality!

I am only interested in Trophy women, for marriage! Sincerely, fear God Almighty and suspection and
accusation are instruments of devils! Do not be too proud and arrogant about your evil deeds. To talk about
your involvement of illicit sex, drinking and smoking as if they are virtuous deeds, is a sign of being led astray!
Do not let the evildoer makes evil deeds seemingly honorable to you. There is nothing Islamic about being a
liberal Muslim, except in label only. Maybe it is one of the 73 sects. But there is no success in anything that God
is against! Okay, Omuwunmi, you are a Yoruba woman. Why are you not bashful about the name and its
offending the sensibility of others? Just for the record, I do not want you. I am certain that the Holy Prophet
would not have wanted your type anyway! My proof is that he never took any woman who offered herself!
yawns and sleeps off
olabowale (m)
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #642 on: December 15, 2007, 02:10 PM »

@Nwando: Quote from: olabowale on Yesterday at 09:28:50 PM
@Pilgrim.1: She you don finish ya pressing appointment?

Are you ready to rumble? Let go on a more pressing matter, the plagiarising
thread! You bring your Bible and the Qur'an is always standing ready! I don't
think Nwando is up to the challenge. Neither are you, but you are more of a
fresher blood! lol. (Olabowale's answer today, Saturday, Dec 15, 2007: Pilgrim thinks she has the time and eager to debate! Thats all) And by the way this is the holy month of hajj. People are fasting. If I do not believe that an in Dawa'h in here, I will not be involved in any mundane/idle things!

I could have invited Omuwunmi. But i am not so sure if she is up to it! (Just incase I speak Yoruba, in my effort to be friendly, sometimes. Moreover, I saw her writing somewhat unIslamic. Until now that she says that she is a 'liberal Muslim!'


olabowole,can you let your wife come to nairaland,I'll love to show her a thing or two
even though I have the nagging suspicion she's been on this thread. (I wo nwando, O fe ba Matron of Egba descendant Union, Lagos soro? Hehe, o ga o! At least she is your aunt! It will be impossible. I do not want her presence to overwhelm you! lol.

Am I wrong or right? (You are wrong. There is no surprise there. You are always wrong. A glaring evidence is your choice of God and the way to worship!
 
   
 

 
 
olabowale (m)
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #643 on: December 15, 2007, 02:19 PM »

@Omuwunmi: The below is what I saw as your post that gave me the impression that you are
a Christian, disbelieving in Allah and His Messenger Muhammad (as)! How can you count
yourself as Muslim, liberal or not in what you wrote, as quoted below? Fear Allah. Notice that
you are getting older, not younger. In this is a sign that you are getting closer to the grave!
Please be mindful of how you conduct your affairs. Your yawning and sleeping off, means Zero
to me, but only an indictment of your person! You will have no helper against your Lord, if you
continue this way.


allah because of that i go change my dog name from bingo to mohammed,nonsense
olabowale (m)
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #644 on: December 15, 2007, 03:29 PM »

@Eldee: Let me tell you, Osama bin Laden and his crew are not leadership materials for me,
as Muslim! I obey Allah, in the followership of classical Islamic sense, in its applications to
todays living. Muhammad is the Prophet, that I follow. If a man follows Muhammad in any matter
I follow the man. If the same man brings something else as not to follow Muhammad in another
matter, I will not follow the same man in whereever he differs with Muhammad. Finally, am older
than Osama bin Laden! I do not do anything contrary to Qur'an and Sunnah/hadith. So your
statement about Osama bin laden, is between the two of you! Now, I will respond to your statement
to me of my entry to Nwando:

@olabowale
I have examined your replies to Nwando's comments and I've totally seen what I've seen in other Muslims; hardheardedness. How will you give such baseless replies to questions. Let's examine your replies. (Hardheardedness? What's that? Explain yourself, Mr. eldee.

But Christianity has no reality. Ask the Jews why the refused to even acknowledge Jesus? (They refused to accept Jesus the same way others did not accept Islam till the swords and matchetes where put to their heads) : Eldee, my late father was from Ijebu Ode. What Sword was brought to his bloodline, which made them accepted Islam, for many generations. By the way Osugbo Bilkis, of Prophet King Solomon era, is outside the city limit of Ijebu Ode. I wonder how that happened?

How can good woman belong to a bad man, a filth And why should the government be the one to choose who you'll marry. And besides a woman is not a belonging. : I have not claimed that any woman is a belonging! However the Machiavellian ego tripping exhibited by many men, over their women, is not limited to Muslim men alone. Indeed, the non Muslim men in the west is enough proof. Also, since alot of Nigerian men do the same, as well, you can take a look in your own backyard. Indeed, Islam requires a woman to keep her maiden/father's name, in marriage. Do you have the same in Christianity? Nwando took her husband's name, immediately she got married. If she has gotten married to a Muslim, she could have legally kept her family name! lol. This is for Omuwunmi, who does not know what she truly is.

Is there anything that is good in Christianity that is humanly possible to accept? The concept of Turning the other cheek has not sank in, in over 2000 years that the Christians have been playing with it. Show me an example? Zero. Its unreal. Trinity is like a fantasy Ok, that's your own opinion and noone is forcing you to believe in the trinity. (So eldee, how could you have any opinion on Islam, which you know nothing about? At least, I went to a Christian school. Married a Christian, before. My mother was a Christian, until she changed, Alhamdulillah! My college roommate is a prominent Christian Pastor/Minister in NYC! But you have you read the Qur'an? It is serious when well matriculated people, for generations, continue to belief 3 is truly 1! And from the same book which they claim as their religion authority the earlier commandment of GOD, written on 2 Tablets, to replace the 2 that was broken, says that 1 is truly 1 GOD!

A man who abducts, rapes, forcible converts any one does not follow Muhammad. Oppression, illegal sex and forcing people are Unislamic. This is where you just hung yourself. Meaning Muhammad is not Islamic. ( Eldee, who did Muhammad abducted,raped, forcible converted? You are not thinking by your statement. No wonder.

At least they are not naked. Most would love to be stark naked. They are quick to show us their underpants. Yet they say they are fully dressed Since they have made their own choices leave them. (Eldee, let me make it easy for you and there is no insult intended: Would you let, your grandmothers, mother, aunts, etc, be naked like the women we are talking about, and love that nakedness from your heart? Would you? Answer me , man!

If you can't stand the heat get out of the Kitchen. That's the most unecessary collection of rubbish I ever heard. So u should be stripped of your citizenship because you do not belong to a religion. Just when I thought I could say racists are evil. (Racists are evil people. But greater evil people are those who say there is no God and those who set up partnership with GOD, either under the belief that these partners are intermediaries or any part of God. Eg 1/3 God, etc! lol.

Adulterer deserve death, if that is the law of God. Osama, are u reading this, you just got a chief striker for your West African chapter. (I am not in West Africa. So you goofed! More importantly, Osama and me do not come from the same thread. I am not an hyphenated Muslim. Pilgrim.1 baby, I am dragging you into this conversation. I know you will tell me you know me more than I know myself. The only One who knows me more than me, is Allah.

You know the unseen, so give us what will happen next year? Pointless talk (I hear you. You are dumbfounded.

are you reading a different Koran and hadith from theirs? (It is Qur'an) You intelligently skipped the question. (Eldee, I do not get you.

Jesus never saw a single Bible with his own eyes. How can he legislate on what he never knew? Jesus was not even a CHRISTIAN! Jesus never saw a Bible, he inspired it. He made so much impact for leaving on the earth for thirty-three years. He didn't even make laws. Buddha wasn't a Buddhist either just as Sango was no Sango-worshipper. (Eldee, you have helped the cause of Islam. We have been telling you and the Christians for over 14 centuries that you and those you listed are on the same fast track to hellfire! But Islam has the obligation to warn you about it. So that you do not claim that the no warner came to you.

I never have killed before. Okay, am in the minority, in close to a Billion people. (Osama is not a bomber too,  he inspires people to kill, and stupidly commit sucide for virgins. You believe in letting people murder other people, believe me u don't have to carry a gun) Did Martin Luther King inspired people to kill? Did Manhat ma Gandhi inspired people to kill? Who inspired the good Christians of Europe to enslave African? Who inspired the Belgians, Dutch, Portuguese to enslave, kill the African they colonised? Who inspired Hitler and his third Reich Crew, Mussolini, and others to kill over 6 million Jews alone along with the Gypsies? Who inspired the Crusade incursions to Jerusalem and many lives were perished? Who inspired the the Spanish inquisition? Who inspired the genocidal almost annihilation of the natives in the Americas? Who inspired the current instabilities around the world?

How many killings of nations in the Old Testaments? What happened in the 2 world wars? The big nations in the fights were Muslims? I do not think so. In the Old Testament, there were no christian nations there, as u know christianity started fro Jesus Christ. And besides that was long before civilisation. (But the old testament is part of the Christian Bible, right? Please tell us if you belief in its Prophets and all its content? If not, then what is it doing in your Holy book? Decoration purposes or what? This is a very good topic to raise. Depending on your response, i may just raise a topic on this matter, for all to contribute in.

Never have I heard such a HOGWASH. Yet the Christians use their pretty white women, to convert the innocence of the Ignorant African Muslims into the tune of 6 Millions per year? It sounds disingenuous to me. Liar, check the history of christianity in Nigeria. Missionaries, with more men, infact they came in ships how do women manage to manoeuver ships. How did Islam spread? (Am not a liar. I am talking about the current wave of Christian efforts to Christianize Subsahara region of Africa. This is according to the Christian's own information. Nwando and Pilgrim.1, please help your Brother with upto date information. Eldee, go for a tutorial with these pretty Christian Missionaries. lol.




focused (m)
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #645 on: December 15, 2007, 04:59 PM »

It is a common knowledge that Islamic religion is a religion that was propagated by force, whether anyone (Islamist on this forum ) likes it or not, but that is the truth. Otherwise I don't think anyone in their right senses will ever want to adopt such religion.

Promoting violence under the euphemism of Jihad is from the devil and not from God

Polygamy/ polygyny is an insult to marriage. Polygamy is adultery. Islam religion promotes adultery, all this shows it is not from God.

The muslim bible (Quran) is full of contradiction.

Lets even forget what has happened before in the past, what about have is currently happening ? Lets not even go far, lets look at Nigeria. Do anyone remember a case of man whose hand was chopped off for stealing. Stealing is bad and should not be condoned. Human being commit sin all the time and pray to God for forgiveness and God in his mercy forgives, why they look for another alternative form of punishment , there are other forms of punishment.

What about what happened in Northern Nigeria because of a cartoon of muhammed in the danish press ?

If a religion or a form of worship is from God, lets test the spirit and know if it truly comes from God or from the devil. So far, Islamic religion is from the devil. Mecca is the headquarter of this evil form of worship.

focused (m)
I implore everyone to read this - It could answer some questions
« #646 on: December 15, 2007, 05:07 PM »

The Middle-East Crises – Can there ever be a truce?

The Middle-East crises did not start with September 11, 2001. It started some decades before and the current violent trend started after the Second World War when the geographical area referred to as “Palestinian land” (modern day Jordan, Syria, Saudi-Arabia, and Israel) was divided by the British and the United Nations. Also many Arab countries moved to secular moral postures after gaining political independence from European colonial masters and many sects (Wahabism in Saudi Arabia, Moslem Brotherhood in Egypt among many) rose to challenge the secularization of Islam.

Many Arab countries have had to fight the growing discontent among their citizens for many years. September 11, 2001 was a boil over of frustration in the middle-east and the United States of America being seen as the great Devil influencing the moderate or liberal Arab states from the true practice of Islam, exporting lose morals and supporting the state of Israel,


Genesis

God promised Abraham at age 75 that he was going to make him the father of many nations, at this time Abraham’s only wife Sarah was 65 years old. Ten years later after the promise, Sarah approached her husband about helping God out because God was becoming late on His promise. As it was the culture in their day she gave her husband her Egyptian maidservant, Hagar to be a surrogate mother. This arrangement went well until Hagar started to act differently to her boss because she was now pregnant.

In Biblical account, Sarah convinced her husband Abraham to send Hagar away. Hagar left with her heavy pregnancy and was met by an angel in Beer Lahai Roi, who prophesied the following to her “you are now with a child and you will have a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard of your misery. He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers”

Sarah eventually had her own child named Isaac, after which she convinced her husband again to send Hagar and Ishmael away for the second time. Abraham did it reluctantly. Ishmael and Isaac were brothers. Ishmael is said to be the father of the Arabs, while Isaac (and his descendants through Israel or Jacob) is the father of the Jews. Jews and Christians believe that the son Abraham almost sacrificed was Isaac, while Moslems believe that son was Ishmael.

The seed of hostility was sown this far back between this two brothers before both of them could even count 123 or say their ABCs.

The Jews

A true Jew is a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and he/she serves only God – Yaweh. A Jew believes in the Law of Moses given to the Israelites through Moses after leaving Egypt following 400 years of slavery. Those laws (and other prophetic pronunciations) and the history of Israel as a nation now constitute what is called the Torah. A gentile (non-Jew) can convert to Judaism but that does not make such a person a Jew. The Laws of Moses believes in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, meaning their “must” be vengeance for an evil act committed (Read the books of Deuteronomy and Leviticus in the Bible for a breakdown of the Law of Moses).

When God chose the Jews as His people (Sovereignly) through Abraham, He made several promises to him (read the covenant in Genesis 15), but significantly is the real estate promise that God made to Abraham, Genesis 15: 18-21 “On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abraham and said, to your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great, the Euphrates (in current Iraq)” many scholars believe this is a promise yet to be fulfilled and God being one to count His word more than His name will fulfill this promise He made to Abraham after the rapture and 7 years of tribulation. Another major promise of God to His people the Jew is that regardless of what they go through His hands will always be on them and they cannot be made extinct or wiped out (read Jeremiah 31 particularly verse 36).

The history of Israel as a nation points to the facts that a Messiah would come and save them from their misery, many scholars believe that every book in the Old Testament portion of the Bible and the Torah predicted something about the Messiah. Daniel in a vision that God gave him (Daniel chapters 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12), gave a prediction of what would happen to Israel as a nation, how they will be defeated, held captive and scattered from their homeland.

The period generally referred to as Inter-Testament or silent period saw the dispersement of Jews all over the then known world because of persecution, in the words of a scholar “During the exile, Israel was cut off from the temple, divested of nationhood and surrounded by pagan religious practices. Her faith was threatened with extinction. Under these circumstances, the exiles turned their religious focus from what they had lost to what they retained – the Torah and the belief that they were God’s people”. Please read Zechariah 8: 1-8 (promise of God to Israel through Prophet Zechariah while they where in captivity in Babylon away from their homeland).


The Church Age

This is a period not foretold by any of the Old Testament prophets. Jesus Christ brokered a different covenant between God and mankind, offering himself as a sacrifice for everyone’s sins (John 3: 16). Jesus was referred to as the seed of Jesse (King David’s father), meaning he was to come from the lineage of the Jews and He was also to be the Messiah the Jews are expecting.

The new covenant of Christ ushered in the Church age with Jesus Christ as the cornerstone, whereby many of us gentiles can be grafted into the lineage of God’s chosen by GRACE, through Jesus Christ being offered as the sacrificial lamb for our sins. We are now in the church age or grace dispensation as many refer to it, and the significant thing about this period is that the age of God dealing with the Jews alone is on hold and the Holy Spirit (rarely seen) under the Old Testament covenant is now available 24/7/365 to lead and direct a believer in Christ.

The church age will end with “the rapture” and the covenant with Israel will resume. Many Jews today do believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah being expected but many don’t. Christ followers in the church age are referred to as “Christians” (they come in different shades – from the real deal to money maker, from black to white to Arabs etc), many Christians who study the Bible and understands it’s content (prophecies) have sympathy for the state of Israel not because they are perfect people but because of God’s promise to them, knowing that God’s promises are always true (regardless of what we think of the promise).

The Arabs

I am not aware of much history of the Arabs from Ishmael. In Genesis 25: 12-18, the bible gave the names of the 12 sons of Ishmael and their tribe affiliates. However, there are robust and numerous information about the Arabs from the time of Prophet Mohammed (sws). Muslim scholars have traced the roots of Prophet Mohammed (sws) back to Ishmael and Abraham (see www.Muhammad.net/biography)

Mohammed was born in 570 AD and was orphaned by age six, his grandfather took custody of him and he died two years. Young Mohammed went to live with his Uncle Abu Talib.

Abu Talib was a trader who taught young Mohammed business. Young Mohammed soon earn a reputation as a trustworthy person with an impeccable Character, hence the nickname “Al-Amin”. Some literature postulates that his upright reputation brought Khadija (a rich multiple widowed woman and 15 years older) into his life as first wife. Mohammed hated the polytheistic beliefs of the Arabs. There were many gods among his people and this was of great concern to him. As a young man of 35 years he will take time out at a particular time of the year to pray and fast. After 5 years of praying and fasting in a cave (Hira), Arch-Angel Jibril (Gabriel) appeared to him and told Mohammed to write the revelations he (Gabriel) will be giving him (Mohammed), beginning what is now compiled as Quran, the Holy Book of Muslims.

The revelations of the Quran started in 610 AD till about 632 AD (or 22 years). After the first revelation from angel Gabriel, Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) started to preach about one God called Allah and that he was the prophet. His wife Khadija was his first convert, then his cousin, Ali ibn Abu Talib, then Abu Bakr (a prominent trader), very soon many people started to convert to his teachings and believe in one true god.

For three years prophet Mohammed (pbuh) taught the new religion quietly not wanting conflict with his people the Quraysh tribe in Makkah (now Mecca), then he decided to share the revelation and the belief in one true god with the people of Mecca. This brought persecution on him for many years (about 13 years) some of which he spent in exile with his wife. During this period in 620 AD, Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) lost his Uncle Abu Talib who protected him and his wife Khadija who supported him morally.

The revelations from angel Gabriel to Prophet Mohammed (Pbuh) during this 13 year period was more of cooperation, living at peace with neighbors and tolerance of people persecuting them (Muslims). Many of this revelations or part of the Quran are what most secular or moderate Islamic countries quote and are shared mainly with western world.

With him enduring persecution in Mecca, Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) entered into an agreement with two tribes from Medina (Aous and Khazraj) for protection and for him to be their ruler and spiritual head. While in Medina, Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) not only became the spiritual leader but also a political leader. With the protection and military might of the tribes in Medina, they soon conquered surrounding tribes and villages, forcing people to accept the new religion. The revelation from angel Gabriel to Prophet Mohammed (sws) at this time became more daring and forceful and Jihad soon became a word used many times in the revelations.

In 624 AD the Quraysh tribe of Mecca attacked prophet Mohammed (sws) and his men in Medina called the battle of Badr. The prophet and his men, though smaller in number soundly defeated the Meccans, the victory made him a powerful political and religious leader in the Arabic land with more than 10,000 fighting men. This victory further emboldened the spread of Islam forcefully and through Jihad (see Surah 8: 38-39, Surah 8: 65).

After this conquest prophet Mohammed (pbuh) received a new revelation from angel Gabriel regarding Jihad, Surah 9: 29 “Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His messenger (Mohammed) (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah (tax) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued” The Noble Quran. The above Surah interprets that Muslims fight

Those who don’t believe in Allah
Those who don’t believe in the last day
Those who do things that Allah and Mohammed (sws) forbids
Those who don’t acknowledge Islam as the truth i.e. “the people of Scripture”, who are the Jews and Christians.
Options for those who do not believe in Allah

Accept Islam
Remain a Jew or a Christian but pay Jizyah, typically levied once a year (many Christians minority in Egypt or other Islamic majority countries are forced to pay Jizyah today or they are killed).
Death
The principle of Naskh

There are 114 verses in the Quran that speak of peace, love and forgiveness, especially in the Surah “The Heifer” (Surah 2: 62, 109, 256) most of these revelations came when prophet Mohammed (sws) was in Mecca and being persecuted by the Quraysh tribe (his own people). However subsequent revelations such as Surah 9: 5 taught exactly opposite what Surah 2: 62 taught.

To deal with these contradictions, the principle of Naskh was put in place. It basically states that new revelations overrides older revelations, meaning new revelations given to prophet Mohammed later on in Mecca when he was now a religious and a political leader (60% of which includes teaching on Jihad) cancels out the earlier revelations the 114 verses of love, peace and forgiveness. More like when Christians argue that the new covenant with Christ (in the New Testament) has fulfilled the civic and ceremonial laws of the Old Testaments – such as the Civic or Ceremonial laws in the Laws of Moses.

Interpretation of Jihad

The word Jihad means “Holy War” for the Religion (lexicorient.com). There is no doubt about the fact that the Quran and the Hadith (writings about prohet Mohammed sws, by others – also considered a Holy Book but not by all Muslims) teaches about Jihad, the argument today is the interpretation given to the word Jihad.

To understand the different interpretations of Jihad by Muslims, we need to differentiate between Muslims (just like the Conservative and Liberal Christian identification). There are Secular Muslims – they reject the call for violent Jihad, they practice the 5 pillars if and when convenient and nothing more. The Traditional Muslims – can be divided into two, those who believe all the tenets of Islam but consider Jihad to be a spiritual battle rather than a physical battle (e.g. the Muslim Sufism Movement), the second traditional Muslim believe that Jihad is a physical war but would not do it personally (might contribute financially) because of family and life itself. The Fundamentalist Muslims – are the ones who have chosen to interpret the Quran literarily and call for the spread of Islam by force, and the elimination of the Jewish state (this has nothing to do with the giving back land by Israel) and instilling the moral standards of Islam worldwide (See Dr. Mark Gabriel’s materials).

Most moderate governments like that of Jordan, Pakistan and Egypt have more secular views of Jihad (meaning it is more spiritual than physical), but they have to contend with the fundamentalist among them.

Understanding the Fundamentalist Mindset

To understand the state of mind of the fundamentalist groups and how they can strap “bombs” around themselves and kill many people along with themselves, we need to understand what they believe beyond the natural.

Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) taught that going to heaven (paradise) is entirely based on Allah’s choice after He (Allah) weighs the good works of the believer. In one of the Hadith, prophet Mohammed (pbuh) included himself among those Allah will judge and consider their good works before being granted access to heaven.

However, a Muslim has an assurance of paradise with death through Jihad (Martyrdom). Angel Gabriel gave this revelation to Prophet Mohammed (sws) in Surah 61: 10-13 “O you who believe! Shall I guide you to a trade that will save you from a painful torment? That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Mohammed), and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives, that will be better for you, if you but know! (if you do so) He will forgive you your sins, and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow, and pleasant dwellings in And (Eden) Paradise; that is indeed the great success. And also (He will give you) another (blessing) which you love, - help from Allah (against your enemies) and a near victory. And glad tidings (O Mohammed) to the believers”

Many fundamentalist groups (those who believe the teachings of Jihad as a physical battle and literal interpretation of the Quran) groups psyche up their followers with hatred for infidels (Jews and Christians) and quote the Quran to them on the promise of direct access to paradise.

It continues to amaze me why the leadership of the fundamentalist groups hide from being Martyred (in caves and other places), when death through Martyrdom guarantees access to heaven, instead of leaving Allah to Judge their good works which is up in the air or subjective?

Contemporary History

The Europeans went on a rampage colonizing the world about a century ago and the Middle East was one of their colonial territories. The Foray into the Middle-East started with Napoleon in 1798 and very soon European powers carved up the region. The British took Egypt and Sudan, while the French took Morocco and Algeria.

Most of the Middle-East was under the Ottoman Empire (the last set of Caliphs to rule in Islam) until after the First Word War. In 1916 control of the southern portion of their Ottoman Empire was "mandated" to France and Britain under the Sykes-Picot Agreement, which divided the Arab region into zones of influence. Lebanon and Syria were assigned (mandated) to France,  and "Palestine" (today's Jordan, Israel and "West Bank") was mandated to Great Britain.

In 1923 the British divided their Middle-East territory up for administrative purposes and in effect created problems in the region (see www.masada2000.org/historical for details). This geographical division, created problems among the Jews and the Arabs leading to the 1929 Hebron Massacre and Arab Revolts in 1936-1939. The constant conflicts between the Jews and Arabs led to the formation of various organizations defending each individual’s rights. Menachem Begin formed Irgun later to become IDF (Israeli Defense Force).

Unable to have a head-way, the British in 1947 handed the issue over to the United Nations and UN Resolution 181 approved a Jewish state with some land. The resolution was accepted by the Jews but rejected by the Arabs. On May 14th 1948, Israel declared independence and called the new state Israel.

Seven Arab states (Egypt, Trans-Jordan, Saudi-Arabia, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq) invaded the new state on May 15th 1948 and the war lasted 19 months. Israel survived and actually gained more land than the UN resolution gave them. The Palestinian Arabs that stayed in Israel during the war became Arab-Israelis and those who left became the first set of Palestinian refugees. In 1950 Trans-Jordan co-opted the Palestinian Arabs and the West Bank territory with its own territory and gave Jordanian citizenship to the Palestinians-Arabs. The name Trans-Jordan was also changed to Jordan (modern day Jordan).

In May 1967, the armies of Egypt, Syria and Jordan mobilized to attack Israel (this attack was the second aimed at eliminating the state of Israel). Before May 1967, Egypt ruled Gaza, Syria ruled the Golan Heights and Jordan ruled the West Bank. Why none of these Arab governments caved out a state for the Palestinian Arabs from their territories from 1949 – 1967 when they had possession is a question that is baffling?

In what is now called the six day war, Israel defeated all three armies and took possession of Gaza, Golan Heights, West Bank (with 850,000 Palestinian Arabs) and most important to Israel is the return of Jerusalem in their possession. It is important to note at this point that the Palestinian Arabs offered to move into Jordan after the six days war but General Moshe Dayan encouraged them to stay, hoping they’ll get all the amenities the Jews are getting. Yasser Arafat formed the Palestinian Liberation Organization about this time to fight for a homeland for the Palestinian Arabs.

On March 26 1979 Israel signed a peace deal with Egypt and gave back some land they got during the six day war. On October 26th 1994 Israel signed a peace deal with Jordan.

Sunni and Shiite division and the Middle-East Crises

Sunni and Shiite are the two major divisions of Muslims. The Sunnis are about 85% - 90% of all Muslims while Shiites are about 10% - 15%. The Shiite are concentrated in Iran, Lebanon, and Iraq and then spread worldwide, while the Sunnis are obviously the vast majority. The main reason for division among the two groups is that the Sunni branch believes the four Caliphs after prophet Mohammed (pbuh) are legitimate leaders and their heirs are recognized as legitimate religious leaders, while the Shiite branch recognizes only the fourth Caliph Ali and his heirs as the legitimate religious leaders. There are other subtle differences in religious operating procedures.

It is important to note that there is no love lost between the Sunnis and the Shiites and their differences have resulted in many wars in Islamic history, in-fact Iraq is currently embroiled in this sectarian rift that has lasted many decades.


The rule of Caliphs descendants was abolished about 1924 (shortly after the First World War) when the then leader of Turkey dissociated his country from the Caliphs. Europeans backed more secular governments in the Middle-East when they came on as colonial masters.

Contemporary and Modern Fundamentalist Groups

Founding fathers

Hassan Al-Banna 1906-1949 founded Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt
Abdul Ala Mawdudi 1903-1979 founded Jema’at e-Islami and was instrumental in creating the nation of Pakistan from the colonialist.
Assid Quth 1906 – 1965 member of Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt
All the above men are said to be great thinkers (in-fact two of them memorized the Quran by age 10) and they wrote many influential books.

The fathers of the Muslims fundamentalist groups impressed many Muslim youths with their writings and teachings; they got a lot of followers. It is important to note that their aim was not international, but to unseat secular Islamic governments and instilling practice of Quran to the letter as it was in the days of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh).

The Next Generation

The belief system of the founding fathers has spread far and wide among Muslim communities worldwide largely through their followers, but we’ll stay with the known names.

Dr. Salah Sariah 1933 – 1975 started Islamic Liberation Movement
Shokri Mustafa 1942 – 1978 started Emigration and Flight
Abdul Salam Faraj 1954 – 1982 co-founded Egyptian Al-Jihad (militant arm of Muslim Brotherhood)
Osama bin Laden 1957 - started Al-Qaeda in 1988
Dr. Ayman Al-Zawahiri 1951 - led Egyptian Al-Jihad
In 1996, Osama bin Laden and Ayman Al-Zawahiri joined forces under the name Al-Qaeda and issued the following Fatwa (a Fatwa is a legal opinion of an Islamic religious leader). The two men met in Afghanistan when routing out the Russians. They left for the Sudan thereafter and returned to Afghanistan when the Taliban took over the country.

1996 Fatwa from Al-Qaeda (summary)

(http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html)

By establishing military bases in Saudi Arabia, a Holy Land for Islam, the United States has affronted the Islamic world.
By waging war against Iraq and Saddam Hussein after Iraq invaded Kuwait, the United States has dealt with a brother.
By supporting the survival of the state of Israel and weakening other Arab states (as they defined weakening), the United States is against Islam.
To implement the Fatwa, Al-Qaeda bombed US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998. Attacked USS Cole in October 2000 tried sinking the ship and attacked the United States on September 11th 2001. There have been subsequent attacks in London, Italy, and India.

Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda were the first fundamentalist group to take Jihad beyond secular Islamic states to attacking western powers that they consider as morally deficient and supporting Israel.

Secular Islamic states like Saudi Arabia is taking the Jihad to western countries as well using legitimate ways, they have reportedly donated over $420 million to Australian Muslims (http://www.australian-news.com.au/Saudi-Arabia.htm), more money is being pumped into England (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/4172000.stm), France (and other European countries) and America. It is very important to note that while they are free to evangelize western countries, Islamic countries are closed “shut” to evangelization of any sort from any other religion (Guest are allowed to practice their religion within certain framework without evangelizing the host citizens).

Where we are today

Peace will continue to elude the Middle-East if the following areas are not sincerely addressed

Recognition of the State of Israel. Only two Arab countries recognize the state of Israel (Egypt and Jordan), the Arab League (a 23 state union) does not recognize Israel. Islamic countries, not just the fundamentalist groups are still calling for the elimination of the State of Israel.
The Islamic fundamentalist groups have to be confronted ideologically by the secular Moslem states with the truth of the Quran on Jihad. Eliminating them might work for a while but convincing a human being always works better than force (except they are right in their interpretation?).
Philosophies of the Sufism movement and men like Karam Zohdy, Hamdi Abdul Rahman and Najah Ibrahim, all Al-Gama leaders in Egypt later to renounce violence (without cohesion) need to be examined closely and used to appeal to the mind of Islamic fundamentalists.

Secular governments like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia must stop the growth of fundamentalist groups that they bank roll in their countries (for their own survival). The support of fundamentalist groups by its citizens also need to stop, those money can be channeled to humanitarian helps for the Palestinian Arabs.
While defending its right to exist, Israel should still actively seek peace with willing Arab states and continue to make life bearable for the Palestinian Arabs.
Iran and Syria should stop supporting Hezbollah (a Shiite militant group) and using them to fight their own war against Israel (why did Hezbollah attack an Israeli Army post and took two soldiers hostage?). Lebanon should be left to have and run its own government without interference from Syria or Iran.
There need to be some solution to the plight of the Palestinian Arabs. Yasser Arafat and Benjamin Netanyahu blew off the Clinton brokered peace deal of October 1998 (land for peace). I’m not sure the Palestinian Authority leadership really wants peace with Israel when they still don’t recognize the right of Israel to exist as a nation in their charter and books. (I believe Mahmoud Abbas – current P.A. Chairman, does recognize the right of Israel to exist).
There is also the issue of Jerusalem, I don’t have a clue as to the solution but as a Christian, I’m commanded to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

Fundamentalist groups are now all over the world, not just in the Middle-East (or just Osama bin Laden). Western countries need to be on alert but they also need to confront the fundamentalist in their own countries ideologically (especially Britain and France). The aim of the fundamentalist groups still remains to establish Islamic states worldwide, to achieve this they plan to attack western economies (through oil and other means).

Secular and Traditional Muslims need to be engaged and their help sought to flush out the fundamentalist in their midst as it happened in London with the tip of bomb plot on airlines.

All of my suggestions are not new but there has not been the will to implement any of them, there has been numerous UN Resolutions (http://www.cfr.org/publication/11233/) that has been ignored because many people pay lip service to the resolutions rather than implement them.

As I researched to write this article, I came to the conclusion that the lasting solution to the Middle-East crises is more ideological than any other reason, in the words of President Clinton as he watched his peace plan dissolve in December 1998 “everyone need to have an attitude change”, as humans changing our mindset and belief system is always a struggle especially when we believe we have a mandate to do what we do.

May God help us all as we seek lasting peace in the Middle-East?
mdsocks (m)
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #647 on: December 15, 2007, 05:14 PM »

Quote
It is a common knowledge that Islamic religion is a religion that was propagated by force, whether anyone (Islamist on this forum ) likes it or not, but that is the truth. Otherwise I don't think anyone in their right senses will ever want to adopt such religion.

Promoting violence under the euphemism of Jihad is from the devil and not from God

Polygamy/ polygyny is an insult to marriage. Polygamy is adultery. Islam religion promotes adultery, all this shows it is not from God.

The muslim bible (Quran) is full of contradiction.

Lets even forget what has happened before in the past, what about have is currently happening ? Lets not even go far, lets look at Nigeria. Do anyone remember a case of man whose hand was chopped off for stealing. Stealing is bad and should not be condoned. Human being commit sin all the time and pray to God for forgiveness and God in his mercy forgives, why they look for another alternative form of punishment , but there are other forms of punishment

This actually shows the level of your education about Islam.

Why must you just open your mouth and blow out nonsense.
babs787 (m)
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #648 on: December 15, 2007, 05:28 PM »

@focused

How do you expect muslims to respond to your lenghty post?
 Sad Sad
mdsocks (m)
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #649 on: December 15, 2007, 05:30 PM »

Salam babs787

Long time
babs787 (m)
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #650 on: December 15, 2007, 05:37 PM »

@mdsocks

Salam brother no vex for me jare. I have been busy trying to make things work as expected. In addition, preparing for big Salah along with the family.

May Allah in His infinite Mercies allow us to witness the celebration.

Sadly, I have not heard from Mukina and I have been trying her number but it has not been going. I wanted to contact Belloti too to know ho he is doing but I have been unable to do that.

Maa salam and thanks for your brotherly concern.

focused (m)
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #651 on: December 15, 2007, 06:16 PM »

Quote
This actually shows the level of your education about Islam.

Why must you just open your mouth and blow out nonsense.



You are the one blowing out rubbish and nonsense. What I have written is the truth ! The truth is very bitter, but you just have to accept it  Grin
babs787 (m)
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #652 on: December 15, 2007, 06:18 PM »

@focused


Quote
You are the blowing out rubbish and nonsense. What I have written is the truth ! The truth is very bitter, but you just have to accept it .

Where is the truth brother Grin
focused (m)
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #653 on: December 15, 2007, 06:21 PM »

@babs 787 :

You don't have to respond to what I have written, just read and see my perspective of the whole thing  Smiley.

If you chose to respond, its up to you  Smiley.
mdsocks (m)
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #654 on: December 15, 2007, 06:51 PM »

@Focused
In reply to your post on The sharia issue.


The Truth About Shariah.
 
 I have always tried to go through shariah in an understandeable short essay, but due to the nature of forums, I doubted many would read it, nevertheless its worth a try today. I would try to summarize as best as I can, I just hope people would understand better and not derive meanings other than what they are really are.
 
 The general public have several preconceived notions about Islamic Law. One such notion is that Islamic judges are bound by ancient and outdated rules of fixed punishments for all crimes. Here I would explore that idea and look at other myths in an attempt to present Islamic Law from a non-biased view of Shar'iah Law.
 
 Although it is the responsibility of the mass media to bring to the world's attention violations of human rights and acts of terror, many believe that media stereotyping of all Muslims is a major problem.
 
 Which I tend to assume that honest readers would agree to too.
 
  Islamic Law is controlled, ruled and regulated by the Islamic religion. There are civil laws in Muslim nations for Muslim and non-Muslim people. Shar'iah is only applicable to Muslims.
 
 Now the Islamic Law at Glance.
 
 Historically the Islamic Judge (Qazi) was a legal secretary appointed by the provincial governors. Each Islamic nation may differ slightly in how the judges are selected.
 
 One common myth associated with Islamic Law is that judges must always impose a fixed and predetermined punishment for each crime.
  Judges under Islamic Law are bound to administer several punishments for a few very serious crimes found in the Qur’an, but they possess much greater freedom in punishment for less serious (non-Hadd) crimes. Common law is filled with precedents, rules, and limitations which inhibit creative justice. Judges under Islamic Law are free to create new options and ideas to solve new problems associated with crime.
 
 Elements of Shar'iah Law
 
 Shariah Law controls, rules and regulates all public and private behaviour. It has regulations for personal hygiene, diet, sexual conduct, and elements of child rearing.
 
 Shar'iah Law has several sources from which to draw its guiding principles. It does not rely upon one source for its broad knowledge base. The first and primary element of Shar'iah Law is the Qur’an.The second element of Shar'iah Law is known as the Sunna or otherwise known as the Hadith.
 
 The Sunna contain stories and anecdotes, called Hadith, to illustrate a concept. The Qur’an may not have all the information about behaviour and human interaction in detail; the Sunna gives more detailed information than the Qur’an, but nevertheless an unbroken chain of narration is needed to authenticate it, before implementation.
 
 The third element of Shar'iah Law is known as the Ijma. The Muslim religion uses the term Ulama as a label for its religious scholars. These Ulama's are consulted on many matters both personal and political. When the Ulama's reach a consensus on an issue, it is interpreted as Ijma. The concepts and ideas found in the Ijma are not found explicitly in the Qur’an or the teachings of the Prophet (Sunna). Islamic judges are able to examine the Ijma for many possible solutions which can be applied in a modern technical society. They are free by the Islamic law, to create new and innovative methods to solve crime and social problems based upon the concepts found in the Ijma.These judges have great discretion in applying the concepts to a specific problem.
 
 
 The Qiyas are a fourth element of Shar'iah Law. The Qiyas are not explicitly found in the Qur’an, Sunna, or given in the Ijma. The Qiyas are new cases or case law which may have already been decided by a higher judge. The Shar'iah judge can use the legal precedent to decide new case law and its application to a specific problem. The judge can use a broad legal construct to resolve a very specific issue. For example, a computer crime or theft of computer time is not found in the Qur’an or Sunna. The act of theft as a generic term is prohibited so the judge must rely on logic and reason to create new case law or Qiyas.
 
 The fifth element of Shar'iah Law is very broad and "all encompassing." This secondary body of knowledge may be ideas contained in the other written works. All information can be examined for logic and reason to see if it applies to the current case. It also may be a local custom or norm that judge may find helpful in applying to the issue before him. The judge may also weigh the impact of his decision upon how it will effect a person's standing in the community. 
 
 Crimes under Islamic Law can be broken down into three major categories. Each will be discussed in greater detail with some common law analogies. The three major crime categories in Islamic Law are:
 
     1. Hadd [plural Hudud] Crimes (most serious).
     2. Tazir Crimes (least serious).
     3. Qesas Crimes (revenge crimes restitution).
 
 Hadd crimes are crimes against God's law and Tazir crimes are crimes against society. There are some safeguards for Hadd crimes that many in the media fail to mention. Some in the media only mention that if you steal, your hand is cut off.
 
 The Islamic judge must look at a higher level of proof and reasons why the person committed the crime. A judge can only impose the Hadd punishment when a person confesses to the crime or there are enough witnesses to the crime. The usual number of witnesses is two, but in the case of adultery four witnesses are required.
 
 The media often leaves the public with the impression that all are punished with flimsy evidence or limited proof. Islamic law has a very high level of proof for the most serious crimes and punishments. When there is doubt about the guilt of a Hadd crime, the judge must treat the crime as a lesser Tazir crime. If there is no confession to a crime or not enough witnesses to the crime, Islamic law requires the Hadd crime to be punished as a Tazir crime.
 
 Tazir Crimes
 Modern Islamic Society has changed greatly from the time of the Prophet. Contemporary Shar'iah Law is now in written form and is statutory in nature. Islamic concepts of justice argue that a person should know what the crime is and its possible punishment.
 
  For example, Egypt has a parliamentary process which has a formal penal code written and based upon the principles of Islamic Law, but Saudi Arabia allows the judge to set the Tazir crimes and punishments. Modern Islamic Law recognizes many differences between these two nations.
 
  It also allows for much greater flexibility in how it punishes an offender. The major myth of many people is that judges in Islamic nations have fixed punishments for all crimes. In reality the judges have much greater flexibility than judges under common law.
 
 Tazir punishments vary according to the circumstances. They change from time to time and from place to place. They vary according to the gravity of the crime and the extent of the criminal disposition of the criminal himself.
 
 Historically Tazir crimes were not written down or codified. This gave each ruler great flexibility in what punishments the judge was able to dispense. The judge under Islamic Law is not bound by precedents, rules, or prior decisions as in common law. Judges are totally free to choose from any number of punishments that they think will help an individual offender. The only guiding principle for judges under Shar'iah Law is that they must answer to Allah and to the greater community of Muslims. Some of the more common punishments for Tazir crimes are counselling, fines, public or private censure, family and clan pressure and support, seizure of property, confinement in the home or place of detention, and flogging.
 
 Contemporary treatment of Islamic Law and "Radical Muslims" is filled with stereotypical characterizations. Some in the Western media have used the "New York City bombings" as a way to increase hate and prejudice. They have taken the views of a few radicals and projected them onto all Muslims. This action has done a great disservice to the Muslim world.
 
 Some people, also have concluded that Islamic judges lack discretion in their sentences of defendants in the Shar'iah Court System. There are Hadd crimes that do have fixed punishments set forth in the Qur’an, and not all the Hadd crimes are bound by mandatory punishment.
 
 True we are bound to agree that, Islamic Law is very different from English Common Law or the European Civil Law traditions. Nevertheless, we should note that Muslims are held accountable to the Shar'iah Law in an Islamic state, and are judged based on current applicable situations and contexual applications, but non-Muslims are not bound by the same standard (apostasy from Allah). Muslims and non-Muslims are both required to live by laws enacted by the various forms of government such as tax laws, traffic laws, white collar crimes of business, and theft.


I hope you now get it UnFocused Grin
focused (m)
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #655 on: December 15, 2007, 06:52 PM »

Quote
Where is the truth brother

What I have just written !
mdsocks (m)
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #656 on: December 15, 2007, 07:03 PM »

On polygyny. I don't needto rap about what the Quran says but what the bible says.

Polygamy (Polygyny) as seen in the Bible

It is a misconception that the Bible does not allow polygamy. Christians often talk about Bible prohibiting polygamy. There is not a single verse in the Bible which would say "marry only one". The Quran is the only scripture that has this phrase. Polygamy is clearly seen in the Old Testament. I will quote some of the verses below:

"If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, [both] the beloved and the hated; and [if] the firstborn son be hers that was hated" [Deuteronomy 21:15]

"If he take him another [wife]; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish." [Exodus 21:10]

From the above verses it is clear that the Bible acknowledges and allows polygamy. Biblical personalities are often quoted as to having more than one wife. Examples of such are Solomon, David, Rehoboam etc:

"And Rehoboam loved Maachah the daughter of Absalom above all his wives and his concubines: (for he took eighteen wives, and threescore concubines; and begat twenty and eight sons, and threescore daughters.)" [2 Chronicles 11:21]

"And he(Solomon) had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart." [1 Kings 11:3]

When 1 Kings 11:3 is quoted many Christians, in their defense quote the following verse:

"Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD; he did not follow him unreservedly as his father David had done." [1 Kings 11:6]

They suggest that because Solomon was polygamous, God declared him as being evil and compares him to his father David, who according to God, followed His commands. What our Christian brothers fail to realize is that the verse 1 Kings 11:6 does not explain the evil. It does not say that the evil was polygamy. Secondly the verse compares him to his father David and what exactly was David?

"And David took him more concubines and wives out of Jerusalem, after he was come from Hebron: and there were yet sons and daughters born to David." [2 Samuel 5:13]

And:

"[These were] all the sons of David, beside the sons of the concubines, and Tamar their sister." [1 Chronicles 3:1-9]

David was polygamous as well! So it is clear that 1 Kings 11:6 does not refer to polygamy when calling Solomon evil.
mdsocks (m)
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #657 on: December 15, 2007, 07:17 PM »

Quote
Polygamy/ polygyny is an insult to marriage. Polygamy is adultery. Islam religion promotes adultery, all this shows it is not from God.

Focused Since some prophets mentioned in the bible were polygamous, DO WE NOW CONCLUDE THAT THE BBLE IS NOT FROM GODHuh

Waiting for your response dude. Cheesy
mdsocks (m)
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #658 on: December 15, 2007, 07:25 PM »

Quote
What about what happened in Northern Nigeria because of a cartoon of muhammed in the danish press ?

If a religion or a form of worship is from God, lets test the spirit and know if it truly comes from God or from the devil. So far, Islamic religion is from the devil. Mecca is the headquarter of this evil form of worship.

So sad, we also don't support this.
And can you please take me to the place where the devil headqauters is ?
because i have never been invited,


Try answer those points i raised .
nwando
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #659 on: December 16, 2007, 12:13 AM »

Quote from: mdsocks on December 15, 2007, 07:17 PM
Focused Since some prophets mentioned in the bible were polygamous, DO WE NOW CONCLUDE THAT THE BBLE IS NOT FROM GODHuh

Waiting for your response dude. Cheesy

Mdsocks,I respond to you because you seem to be the only reasonable one out of the bunch.
In the beginning God created man and then said it was not good for him to be alone,he created him a help  and called her eve he did not create eve,aishatu,talatu and mukinatu Grin
one man one wife and see what He concluded afterwards.

 
Gen 2:24   Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

That was God's plan.
His sons and son's son's all had one wife and the first record of polygamy in the Bible was Lamech,the 7th generation after Adam,who took on 2 wives.

Abraham,the father of faith had one wife for years.
It was his wife's idea for him to sleep with her handmaid Hagar although God had promised them a son.
She felt God was taking too long so she gave her maid.
The promised son was later born.Isaac.
Ishmael the son of the bondwoman,Hagar the father of the Arabs was not God's idea but still had an inheritance since he came from the loins of Abraham.


Quote
Gen 16:1   NOW Sarai, Abram's wife, had borne him no children. And she had an Egyptian maidservant whose name was Hagar.
Gen 16:2   So Sarai said to Abram, "See now, the LORD has restrained me from bearing children. Please, go in to my maid; perhaps I shall obtain children by her." And Abram heeded the voice of Sarai.
Gen 16:3   Then Sarai, Abram's wife, took Hagar her maid, the Egyptian, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife
, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan.
Gen 16:4   So he went in to Hagar, and she conceived. And when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress became despised in her eyes.


It's true David ,solomon and all the ones the Muslim apologists tout were polygamists,some of them were also murderers and had concubines,does it make it God's will.
God also let Israel have a king when they demanded for one,it was not his will too.
The laws were made for a reason and for that dispensation but the coming of Jesus fulfilled the law,so says the scriptures such that a new covenant was made.
It had been Gods's plan.

Now see what Jesus says about marriage when he was questioned

Mat 19:4   And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made[fn1] them at the beginning 'made them male and female,'[fn2]
Mat 19:5   "and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?[fn3]
Mat 19:6   "So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."


why did he not say they are no longer 3 or 4 or 5 but one.
He said they are no longer 2.
Christ was merely quoting the original plan which was one man one woman.

Now Christians believe all scriptures is by Inspiration.
I'll conclude with this scriptures in the new testament also on this subject
There are several talking about one wife but this one will do.
Paul was admonishing the Church and this is what he wrote.

1Cr 7:1   NOW concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.

1Cr 7:2   [b]Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.
 
1Cr 7:3  Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband.

1Cr 7:4   The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

1Cr 7:5   Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. [/b]

It couldn't be clearer that the plan of God from the beginning was one man one woman.
People out of the hardness of their hearts strayed to obey their fleshly lusts doesn't mean God sanctioned it.

I hope I've anwered you.
email me at babyosisi@hotmail.com for any more clarifications.
Polygamy is continual adultery.Adultery in Christianity is sin.
mdsocks (m)
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #660 on: December 17, 2007, 07:50 AM »

I can see you still don't get it Nwando. All those verses did not prohibit or make polygamy a no no. Recheck it and understand what it says.
 
Just read through this and you can see that polygamy is good.
 
  Polygamy: marriage in which a spouse of either sex may have more than one      mate at the same time.
 
  Polygyny: the state or practice of having more than one wife or female mate at one time
 
  Polyandry: the state or practice of having more than one husband or male mate at one time
 
  Hence it would only be appropriate to mention that polygyny is allowed in Islam and not polygamy as a general term.
 
 
  In the Quran, Surah Nisa, verse 3, it is mentioned:
 
      If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly
with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye
fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a
captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent
you from doing injustice." [Quran 4:3]



 
         This verse was revealed after the Battle of Uhud in which nearly half the Muslim population was wiped out. Hence Allah (swt) in all His Wisdom told Muslims to:
 
          FIRST opt for adopting an orphan. If injustice was feared, THEN if you can be just, opt for marrying up to four women. If injustice was feared, THEN marry only ONE.
 
          As it is from the above verse it is clear that polygamy was never the first choice. The purpose of this Noble Verse was two folds:
 
    1) To give protection to the orphans 2) To increase the Muslim population primarily by adopting and giving protection to the orphans.
 
        Hence despite the fact that the Muslims had lost a lot of men Allah (swt) still did not want polygamy to take place and the first option that He (swt) gave was for them to adopt. Regarding polygamy He (swt) strictly said that you have to be just between your wives otherwise only marry ONE.
 
     Being "Just" with your wives is not an option but a compulsion. Hence if a man fears that he might not be able to be just with his wives then he cannot marry more than one woman.
 
     From the verse it is also clear that Polygamy is not something compulsory but only permissible. Everything that is permissible is not compulsory. Also no one can force anyone to marry. In Islam both the parties have equal rights to choose their partners hence a man cannot force a woman to marry him.
 
     Many scholars have also suggested that if we calculate the entire female population of the world, it is greater than the male population.
 
     The 2001 census for UK (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001/demographic_uk.asp) showed the following:
Females: 30.2 million Males: 28.6 million
 
     If every male marries one female, then there is a total of 1.6 million unmarried females in the UK. Which means 1.6 million women will never get married and the desire to be married and have a family and children would never be fulfilled.
 
     Similarly, according to the CIA Factbook on United States (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html) the following is seen:
 
     Females (15-64 years): 99,324,126 Males (15-64 years): 98,914,382
 
     Again if every man marries a woman, there is a total of 409,744 females who will never be married.
 
     Islam provides a solution for these problems. Polygamy ensures that every woman's desire to have a family and children would be fulfilled. She would not have to seek illicit relationships just to satisfy her sexual needs. Islam recognizes the sexual needs of a woman and provides a solution to ensure a cleaner and better society with greater morals.
 
Comparing Polyandry to Polygyny
 
   Some people including feminists often argue why Polyandry is not permitted. Why can the female not have more than one husband and why is man allowed more than one wife. If polyandry were allowed then greater problems would be faced as compared to monogamy. Below I will analyze the points discussed above and some more points in light of polyandry.
 
  1) If in a case like loss of male population e.g. that which occurred after the Battle of Uhud, we practice polyandry, then the purpose of repopulation is defeated. I would like the people who advocate for polyandry, use their wisdom and explain how repopulation can be achieved with polyandry.
 
  2) If we take the rule of population and then analyze them in light of polyandry, then there will be greater differences. Islam allows a man to have upto 4 wives i.e. he can have 2, 3 or 4. For ease of calculation we will pick an average. Lets say 1 woman marries 2 males and not more. Now let's analyze UK according to the 2001 census:
 
  Females: 30.2 million Males: 28.6 million
 
  Total males available for marriage = 28.6 million Total Number of females getting married to 2 males = 28.6 million / 2 = 14.3 million Hence total number of females who will never get married = 15.9 million
 
  Unmarried women due to monogamy = 1.6 million Unmarried women due to polyandry = 15.9 million
 
  The difference is clear. Try this method for the population of United States as well. It will be obvious how polyandry only worsens the social problem.
 
   3) Imagine a woman with more than one husband, and all her husbands want to have a child. Who will have it first? Fine they agree on turns. So this year one husband has a child the next it's the other. Again medically this is unhealthy for the woman. She will be having children every year!! Would she be able to tend to all her husbands and her infants? No way is it practical. Any logical sane mind would accept that it is not possible.
 
    Islam deals with real problems of life and not just imaginary rules that don't have any impact on the populace.


Enjoy. Cool
focused (m)
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #661 on: December 17, 2007, 02:40 PM »

mdsocks :

On the issue of marriage :

Marriage is binding for life. Monogamy is the uniform teaching of the Bible. Polygamy is contrary to the New Testament dispensation. No one has a right to divorce and remarry while the first companion lives.

Genesis 2:24; Deuteronomy 7:1-4; Joshua 23:11-13; II Corinthians 6:14-18; Proverbs 31:10-31; Malachi 2:14,15; Romans 7:2,3; Ephesians 5:31-33; Matthew 5:31,32; 19:3-9; Mark 10:2-12; Luke 16:18; John 4:15-19; Genesis 20:3,7.

Marriage is not a man made institution that we should mock or mess around with it. It is an institution that God hold in high esteem. Polygamy/ polygyny/polyandry is a sin (Adultery) and an big insult to the institution of marriage.

Let look at some cases :

Abraham had a one wife, but because they ( Abraham and Sarah) were not patient enough when God said the wife Sarah would have a child, Abraham was lured by Sarah to have sexual intercourse with Hagar . What was the consequence of that ? The consequence of that was Ishmael through Hagar. Ishmael (Who is the father of Arabs) is a wild donkey of a man. Look at the way Ishmaelites are terrorising the whole world. So you go against the will of God, there will be problem or a price to pay.

If you say Islam deals with real life issues, how can you be the same in body and spirit with four or more wives ?

Have you seen anything good spring from polygamous homes ?

Anything apart from the first wife, the rest are spiritual marriages, which results to demonic home.
nwando
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #662 on: December 17, 2007, 04:51 PM »

Quote from: mdsocks on December 17, 2007, 07:50 AM
I can see you still don't get it Nwando. All those verses did not prohibit or make polygamy a no no. Recheck it and understand what it says.
 

You are the one that doesn't get it obviously
If you can read through my post and come to the conclusion that the Bible does not condemn polygamy then I cannot help any further.
God created just one woman for eve,that was his plan irrespective of what individuals did.
Christ and Paul taught on one man and a wife.
Christians understand that the concept of God referring to us Christians,the Church as a bride (singular)and Christ as the groom is after our earthly marriage pattern.

Don't try to smuggle adultery AKA polygamy into the Bible  as a Christian virtue because Islam permits a man to have multiple wives including his own flesh and blood
Quote
those verses did not prohibit or make polygamy a no no. Recheck it and understand what it says.

 
.

If you ask me where polygamy was outlawed,I ask you to show me where it was instituted for you cannot outlaw something that wasn't already law

I didn't see where crack cocaine was made a no no in the Bible too,you catch my drift?

As a Christian and a woman,your arguments for polygamy and possession of women as properties does not impress me neither do I see the Islamic hammering on larger female population as a valid reason.
Is that why some of your brothers in Nigeria,Afghanistan and Pakistan would marry these girls at 9 years of age like Mohammed did?
How do we explain that?
Mohammed telling his followers it was best to marry a girl before her first menstrual flow?
How wicked!
Robbing a little girl of her innocence before she had a chance to live

A suicide bomber can give his valid reasons for bombing and "protecting Muslim lands" as an act of his Jihad.
The 7/7 bombers  and Osama justified their actions too
It was oK in their eyes but sounds stupid to the rest of us.
Same as your argument above for polygamy.
nwando
Re: Teacher Arrested In Sudan Over A Bear Named Muhammad.
« #663 on: December 17, 2007, 05:01 PM »