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babs787 (m)
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@pilgrim.1 Still on the corruption of your bible. Obviously as we all know, there are 4 different Gospels. One authored by Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. The book of Mark is said to be dated between years 65-80 The book of Matthew is said to be dated years 80-100 The book of Luke is said to be dated years 80-100 The book of John is said to be dated years 90-120 Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ So Mark is dated at 65 So Mark is dated at 80 So Mark is dated at 80 So Mark is dated at 90 When you read the Gospels you can clearly see the image of Jesus Christ developing from a more human Jesus to a divine Jesus. The image of Jesus' divinity is greatly emphasized and portrayed in the Gospel of John. This is the last of the Gospels. You also see developments in stories such as the Resurrection accounts. Evolution of the Character Of Jesus Throughout the Gospels Verses added to show Jesus as Son of GodMark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God. If you look at the commentary below if you use the NIV bible, it says that some manuscripts do not have the phrase Son of God. So it is possible that this has been added. Another example is that if you read Acts chapter 8, verse 37 is taken out of the RSV and NIV bible. That verse says Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." The eunuch answered, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." Also look at the development of this incident from Mark's gospel to Matthew's Mark 8:29 But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Peter answered, "You are the Christ. Matthew 16:15-16 15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." The word 'Lord' being exchanged for 'Rabbi' Mark 9:5 Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah." Matthew 17:4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah." The word 'Lord' being exchanged for 'Teacher' Mark 4:38 Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, "Teacher, don't you care if we drown?" Matthew 8:25 The disciples went and woke him, saying, "Lord, save us! We're going to drown!" Shifting from Mark to Matthew we see that Matthew is putting “My Father” Mark 3:35 Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother Matthew 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." Matthew is trying to take away the emphasis that Jesus stressed there is one lord Mark 12:29 The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Matthew does not even say that verse what so ever. Read Matthew 22:34-40 and see yourself. Matthew is trying to change the relationship between Jesus and his God Mark 10:18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. Matthew 19:17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." Covering up the human limitations of Jesus If you read the story of Jesus cursing the fig tree in Mark 11:12-15 (he did curse it, confirm in verse 21), you would not find it in Matthew's gospel in chapter 21 12-17. Development in the Resurrection Accounts Mark 16:8 8Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid. Matthew 28:8 8So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Matthew's gospel contains the 'filled with joy' part to show that they were expecting the resurrection but in Mark they were afraid maybe because they never knew about it. Also in Mark it says that they said nothing to anyone. Therefore, who are the witnesses then of the empty tomb from the women? The story must have been manufactured. Coming shortly. |
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babs787 (m)
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@pilgrim.1 Each of the Four Gospels portrays a different aspect of Jesus: Matthew -- The prophesied Messiah of the Jews Matthew was written for a Jewish audience. It's primary purpose is to prove that Jesus is the promised Messiah by showing how He is the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah. Mark -- Human Jesus, Obedient Servant Jesus was not simply God with the appearance of a human. Jesus actually was fully human. When He became human He left His divine powers in heaven and came to live among men as a man. (He was able to perform miracles because He was filled with the Holy Spirit.) It is often taught that Mark portrays Jesus as an obedient servant, even obedient unto death. Luke -- Savior of all mankind Luke was written for a Gentile audience. They were not familiar with Hebrew prophecies about the Messiah nor did they care about them. One of his major themes is that Jesus came for all mankind. John -- God Incarnate John, the last Gospel, was written around 96 A.D. It's primary purpose is to show the deity of Christ. So notice that the earliest Gospel which is Mark emphasized the human part of Jesus and the last Gospel to be written which is John emphasized the deity of Jesus. However, one thing that I cannot understand is that people who read the Gospel of Mark only knew the more human aspect of Jesus. They barely knew anything about his so called divinity. They did not know about all the "I am" sayings found in John. They did not know about the appearance of Jesus after the resurrection because Mark 16:9-20 is a fabricated passage according to textual expert Bruce Mitzger in his book, "The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption and Restoration", p 226. They would not have known these things until they read the Gospel of John which came some 20 to 25 years later. However, what if those people died before they were ever able to read the Gospel of John? Secondly, what evidence do Christians have that these different authors planned to write what they wrote for a specific purpose and that they knew others would write on the other different aspects of Jesus? When you read the writings of the authors you do not even get this impression nor do you even get the impression that they are divinely inspired. For instance, lets look at the introduction to the Gospel of Luke: Luke 1:1-4 1Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us,
2just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught. Luke is talking ordinarily as if he is just simply some other author writing another account. He didn't say things like "the Holy Spirit is inspiring me to write another account to emphasize that Jesus is the savior of all mankind" There is no evidence that these authors ever collaborated or agreed to write 4 different Gospels for the purpose that the Christians are claiming they did. It is illogical, the word of God is supposed to be the same for everybody. It should be the same message for everyone. You don't go preaching to the Jews a specific thing like Matthew did and to the Gentiles a specific thing like Luke did. This link will also be useful for you http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ The Gospel of Mark is the oldest and supposedly the most original one in the New Testament! "Although there is no direct internal evidence of authorship, it was the unanimous testimony of the early church that this Gospel was written by John Mark. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1488)" So, in reality, we don't really know whether Mark was the sole author of this Gospel or not. And since The New Testament wasn't even documented on paper until 150-300 years (depending on what Christian you talk to) after Jesus, then how are we to know for sure that the current "Gospel of Mark" wasn't written by some pro of Mark? ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:9-20;&version=31;) The above text reads: "The most reliable early manuscript and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20." Further regarding this Gospel, we read the following commentary about Mark 16:9-20: "Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost. (From the NIV Bible Foot Notes, page 1528)" You may go to this link for the complete list of NT papyril http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com/ExhibitE.htm Some contradictions showing that the bible is corrupt;\ II Samuel 10:18 talks about David slew the men of 700 chariots of the Syrians and 40,000 horsemen and Shobach the commander. I Chronicles 1:18 says that David slew the men of 7000 chariots and 40,000 footmen I Chronicles 9:25 says that Solomon had 4000 stalls for horses and chariots. I Kings 4:26 says that he had 40,000 stalls for horses Ezra 2:5 talks about an exile Arah having 775 sons. Nehemiah 7:10 talks about the same exile Arah having 652 sons. Also, your original scriptures are all doubtful according to the Bible's own theologians and historians, even the Bible itself admits that it has been tampered with and corrupted by man's garbage: "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:  " The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8: " Regarding who wrote the books and gospels of the Bible, here is a sample of what the NIV Bible's theologians and historians wrote: " Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost. (From the NIV Bible Foot Notes, page 1528)" "Although the author does not name himself, evidence outside the Scriptures and inferences from the book itself lead to the conclusion that the author was Luke. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1643)" "The writer of this letter does not identify himself, but he was obviously well known to the original recipients. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1856)" "The letter is difficult to date with precision, (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1905)" "It seems safe to conclude that the book, at least in its early form, dates from the beginning of the monarchy. Some think that Samuel may have had a hand in shaping or compiling the materials of the book, but in fact we are unsure who the final author or editor was. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 286)" "Although, according to tradition, Samuel wrote the book, authorship is actually uncertain. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 322)" "The date of the composition is also unknown, but it was undoubtedly during the monarchy. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 322)" " The author is unknown. Jewish tradition points to Samuel, but it is unlikely that he is the author because the mention of David (4:17,22) implies a later date. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 360)" "Who the author was cannot be known with certainty since the book itself gives no indication of his identity. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 368)" "There is little conclusive evidence as to the identity of the author of 1,2 Kings. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 459)" "Whoever the author was, it is clear that he was familiar with the book of Deuteronomy. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 459)" "According to ancient Jewish tradition, Ezra wrote Chronicles, Ezra and Nehemiah (see Introduction to Ezra: Literary Form and Authorship), but this cannot be established with certainty. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 569)" "Although we do not know who wrote the book of Esther, from internal evidence it is possible to make some inferences about the author and the date of composition. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 707)"
"The unknown author probably had access to oral and/or written sources, (From the NIV Bible commentary, page 722)" "Regarding authorship, opinions are even more divided, (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 773)" When you have stopped deceiving yourself, let me know. Omo ti won ko gbe ra ina. |
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pilgrim.1 (f)
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@babs787, @pilgrim.1
I am not surprised because I know that those older than me and those below me in your family belong to that. Stop whining this old tale - it has become redundant from overuse. If you are careful to invite good discussions with others, learn to show a bit more respect and decorum to them. I know asking you to be a bit more literate is an overkill, so don't even bother. See Mumu, Do you have your proof that the verse was referring to Jesus. By the way, were dogs involved in Jesus crucifixion/ Mumu, when you provide answer, I wil let you know who the verse was referring to. The simple thing was that you provide expositions to them. The verses you requested have been posted several times - I only reminded you and asked you to provide exegesis for them. Is this cry the best that you could possibly do?  Still showing your stupidity. Now, consider the tenses used in that very verse, 'whom they have pierced'. Please has Jesus been born then? That is why Muslims will remain illieterates for ever! Let me school you up a little. Biblical prophecies are given in a variety of ways: (a) using futuristic tenses (b) past tenses (c) perfect tenses. . . (d) or even given poetically. As in the case of Isaiah 9:6, the prophecy was pointing to the future beyond Isaiah's time; but it was given as if it has already happened!! "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given" - those are past tenses. But the verse immediately follows with a FUTURISTIC tense - "the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace". The simple reason why Muslims continue to be blind and dunces on this matter of Prophetic language is because they are bereft of the revelation of those prophecies! The one reason why God puts prophecies in these various ways is because with Him, all things are viewed as already accomplished and are irrevocable! The same Isaiah makes that point so clear: Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure When God declares the END from the BEGINNING, it is virtually the way prophecies are given. Those prophecies are given so that the end is already known even before they come to pass! When you do away with your dishonesty, go through the verse and read who the verse was referring to. Ol boy grow up and hide your shame! I only asked you to offer exegesis to those verse. So far you came back predictably with excuses! Is that the best you could do? Where is your Islamic scholarship? I thought you wanted to provide the prophecy of his crucifixion and resurrection after the third day but you havent done so. The two verses speak of "piercing". Please help us explain them, since every other time that they have been quoted, the best you have done is deny them! Let me combine your posts here.
This
In addition to my already answered questions, can you account for the authors of all the chapters of the bible (both OT and NT)? Please don't deflect the questions I offered you by running and excusing them away. Answer those questuions first and then we shall come back to this one. The original Message of the Torah (Old Testament) was still around during Muhammad's time. But because the Jews had so much controversies, disputes and age-old prejudices among themselves, they ended up losing the entire original message. Where did Allah tell you that LIE, babs787? When did this happen in the Islamic calendar? Please keep in mind that the Jews were divided into several tribes before Islam, and those tribes had so much problems. I asked for a simple answer, not story telling. The Arabs were also divided among themselves during Muhammad's time. Besides, Muslims are also divided today - Shiites against Sunnis and against Sufis. . . with the Wahabbis ready to clean their poo off the face of the earth after the dust settles. Please tell me, how have you stories enlighetened us about the LIE that the Torah and Injil were LOST, babs787? Have you no shame? having lied and unable to defend that lie, the best you do these days is tell irrelevant long stories and sound all the more dense at it! They never had One True Judaism as many Christians mistakenly believe. That is why the Jews massacred each others before and brought themselves from 11 tribes to only 2 (due to all of the blood shed that took place between them. A total of 9 tribes were completely wiped out. That is why "differences arose therein, " Shiites and Sunjnis have masacred themselves despite the claim to have only one islam. Now, drop your stories and let us know when Allah decided that the Torah and Inil wrere LOST. WHEN did this happen? And if that happened, why have you been struiggling to smuggle Muhammad into the Bible after your acclaimed Torah went missing? As for the Christians and their Injil (New Testament), we Muslims believe that the Christians unintentionally had corrupted the Bible because they waited for too long to document it. Some Christians believe that the Bible was documented 150 years after Jesus. Others believe it took 300 years. In either case, the gap is too big and no Christian can guarantee accuracy. That is why you read in their current books and Gospels things such as "And Jesus said to Matthew, " instead of "And Jesus said to me [Matthew], " and so on. Cases similar to this example literally exist in most of the New Testament of today, where they prove that the New Testament was not even written by its original authors. It was written by third party people, and their words are considered today the Word of GOD, which is wrong and sinful. The Christian sects also believe in different number of Gospels when you compare them to each others. The number of Books/Gospels in the Roman Catholics Bible for instance is different from the King James Version Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Mormon's Bible, etc, Classic lie, lie and lie from the same Muslim propagandist. "WE Muslims believe" - that does not mean there is a fact there!  I want the simple historical FACT to your drivel, mister! If the Injil went missing and untraceable, WHY the duplicity of trying to force Muhammad into John's Gospel? Do you care to not speak from both sides of your face? Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)" Please pack these fallacies to one side and gee me the real HISTORICAL fact. Quran 5 v 13: "But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)." Muhammad again lied there! Allah did not curse nobody - it was Muhammad's rascal CURSING heart that assumed that Allah cursed them! Quran 5 v 41 "O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment." Lol. . . cough! cough! Let me laugh out louder: HEHE-HAW_HAW!!  Look here, mister, I don't fear nutin from the Qur'an. When I was a Muslim, you could shakara me with Muhammad's bloviates! Please open your eyes and see that in this world, Muslims are the ones who have suffered disgrace even at their own hands! Muslims did not wait for anyone to spur the Shiites to slaughter the Sunnis. . . together they derided the Sufis. . . the Whahabbis has shown them pepper! What more disgrace do they need? Quran 5 v 15: : O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger,
revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over
much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new)
light and a perspicuous Book, - Yada-yada!! Jews and Christians did not hide nutin - it is rather Muslims who are claiming that the Torah is LOST when infact it is available for all to see today! LIE, LIE and LIE is all you Musloims do! Quran 3 v 3; "It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment be tween right and wrong). Ahh. . . there, mr babs. . . there!! YOUR QUR'AN was given to CONFIRM the Bible and not CORRECT it. Olodo rabata with your LIES! Did you not try to cheat people by claiming that the Qur'an was given to CORRECT the mistakes in the Bible? Is that what the verse above claims? Quran 5 v 48; "To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; Again O. . . the Qur'an was given to CONFIRMN the Bible that came before it! Babs787, please go to school and upgrade your basic reading skills - the Qur'an was not given to "CORRECT" the Bible; so please stop lying for Allah and making him say what he never said in his Qur'an. Quran 35 v 31: "That which We have revealed to thee of the Book is the Truth,- confirming what was (revealed) before it: for God is assuredly- with respect to His Servants - well acquainted and Fully Observant. Again O. . . the Qur'an came to CONFIRM the Biblical scriptures. We shall get to see if that is true! |
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pilgrim.1 (f)
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@pilgrim.1 Each of the Four Gospels portrays a different aspect of Jesus: Matthew -- The prophesied Messiah of the Jews Matthew was written for a Jewish audience. It's primary purpose is to prove that Jesus is the promised Messiah by showing how He is the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah. Mark -- Human Jesus, Obedient Servant Jesus was not simply God with the appearance of a human. Jesus actually was fully human. When He became human He left His divine powers in heaven and came to live among men as a man. (He was able to perform miracles because He was filled with the Holy Spirit.) It is often taught that Mark portrays Jesus as an obedient servant, even obedient unto death. Luke -- Savior of all mankind Luke was written for a Gentile audience. They were not familiar with Hebrew prophecies about the Messiah nor did they care about them. One of his major themes is that Jesus came for all mankind. John -- God Incarnate John, the last Gospel, was written around 96 A.D. It's primary purpose is to show the deity of Christ. So notice that the earliest Gospel which is Mark emphasized the human part of Jesus and the last Gospel to be written which is John emphasized the deity of Jesus. However, one thing that I cannot understand is that people who read the Gospel of Mark only knew the more human aspect of Jesus. They barely knew anything about his so called divinity. They did not know about all the "I am" sayings found in John. They did not know about the appearance of Jesus after the resurrection because Mark 16:9-20 is a fabricated passage according to textual expert Bruce Mitzger in his book, "The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption and Restoration", p 226. They would not have known these things until they read the Gospel of John which came some 20 to 25 years later. However, what if those people died before they were ever able to read the Gospel of John? Secondly, what evidence do Christians have that these different authors planned to write what they wrote for a specific purpose and that they knew others would write on the other different aspects of Jesus? When you read the writings of the authors you do not even get this impression nor do you even get the impression that they are divinely inspired. For instance, lets look at the introduction to the Gospel of Luke: Luke 1:1-4 1Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us,
2just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught. Luke is talking ordinarily as if he is just simply some other author writing another account. He didn't say things like "the Holy Spirit is inspiring me to write another account to emphasize that Jesus is the savior of all mankind" There is no evidence that these authors ever collaborated or agreed to write 4 different Gospels for the purpose that the Christians are claiming they did. It is illogical, the word of God is supposed to be the same for everybody. It should be the same message for everyone. You don't go preaching to the Jews a specific thing like Matthew did and to the Gentiles a specific thing like Luke did. This link will also be useful for you http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ The Gospel of Mark is the oldest and supposedly the most original one in the New Testament! "Although there is no direct internal evidence of authorship, it was the unanimous testimony of the early church that this Gospel was written by John Mark. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1488)" So, in reality, we don't really know whether Mark was the sole author of this Gospel or not. And since The New Testament wasn't even documented on paper until 150-300 years (depending on what Christian you talk to) after Jesus, then how are we to know for sure that the current "Gospel of Mark" wasn't written by some pro of Mark? ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:9-20;&version=31;) The above text reads: "The most reliable early manuscript and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20." Further regarding this Gospel, we read the following commentary about Mark 16:9-20: "Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost. (From the NIV Bible Foot Notes, page 1528)" You may go to this link for the complete list of NT papyril http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com/ExhibitE.htm Some contradictions showing that the bible is corrupt;\ II Samuel 10:18 talks about David slew the men of 700 chariots of the Syrians and 40,000 horsemen and Shobach the commander. I Chronicles 1:18 says that David slew the men of 7000 chariots and 40,000 footmen I Chronicles 9:25 says that Solomon had 4000 stalls for horses and chariots. I Kings 4:26 says that he had 40,000 stalls for horses Ezra 2:5 talks about an exile Arah having 775 sons. Nehemiah 7:10 talks about the same exile Arah having 652 sons. Also, your original scriptures are all doubtful according to the Bible's own theologians and historians, even the Bible itself admits that it has been tampered with and corrupted by man's garbage: "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8: " The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8: " Regarding who wrote the books and gospels of the Bible, here is a sample of what the NIV Bible's theologians and historians wrote: " Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost. (From the NIV Bible Foot Notes, page 1528)" "Although the author does not name himself, evidence outside the Scriptures and inferences from the book itself lead to the conclusion that the author was Luke. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1643)" "The writer of this letter does not identify himself, but he was obviously well known to the original recipients. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1856)" "The letter is difficult to date with precision, (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1905)" "It seems safe to conclude that the book, at least in its early form, dates from the beginning of the monarchy. Some think that Samuel may have had a hand in shaping or compiling the materials of the book, but in fact we are unsure who the final author or editor was. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 286)" "Although, according to tradition, Samuel wrote the book, authorship is actually uncertain. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 322)" "The date of the composition is also unknown, but it was undoubtedly during the monarchy. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 322)" " The author is unknown. Jewish tradition points to Samuel, but it is unlikely that he is the author because the mention of David (4:17,22) implies a later date. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 360)" "Who the author was cannot be known with certainty since the book itself gives no indication of his identity. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 368)" "There is little conclusive evidence as to the identity of the author of 1,2 Kings. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 459)" "Whoever the author was, it is clear that he was familiar with the book of Deuteronomy. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 459)" "According to ancient Jewish tradition, Ezra wrote Chronicles, Ezra and Nehemiah (see Introduction to Ezra: Literary Form and Authorship), but this cannot be established with certainty. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 569)" "Although we do not know who wrote the book of Esther, from internal evidence it is possible to make some inferences about the author and the date of composition. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 707)"
"The unknown author probably had access to oral and/or written sources, (From the NIV Bible commentary, page 722)" "Regarding authorship, opinions are even more divided, (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 773)" When you have stopped deceiving yourself, let me know. Omo ti won ko gbe ra ina.Keep recycling the same thing over and over again. . . it does not help to wipe the duplicity in the Qur'an. Three issues that I'm still waiting answers for this eveing: (a) WHERE did Allah tell you Muslims the LIE that the Torah and Injil were LOST? Verses from the Qur'an please. (b) Where did Allah tell you the LIE that the Qur'an came to CORRECT the Biblical scriptures? (c) What explanations have you offered to the Biblical prophecies that declare the crucifixion as already proffered? Stop lying for Allah - it will never bless Muhammad in his grave! |
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babs787 (m)
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@pilgrim I can see that you keep getting tired to day after day for not knowing what to write. You supplied me Isaiah 9 v 6 that has been nailed long time ago. Find another verse dear and stop bringing already dead issue to fit into the present discussion. The verse couldnt have been for Jesus becausec he was not a prince of peace unless you want to tell me that he is not OT God and that he didnt order the killing spree of innocent children and keeping of virgins for the warriors. He made it known to you that his kingdom was not of this world and you keep ascriing the verse to him. Common wise up and stop decieving yourself. I thought that you would provide rebuttal to all my post but shamefully you couldnt do that. Three issues that I'm still waiting answers for this eveing:
(a) WHERE did Allah tell you Muslims the LIE that the Torah and Injil were LOST? Verses from the Qur'an please.
(b) Where did Allah tell you the LIE that the Qur'an came to CORRECT the Biblical scriptures?
(c) What explanations have you offered to the Biblical prophecies that declare the crucifixion as already proffered?
Stop lying for Allah - it will never bless Muhammad in his grave! You may deny the glaring truth till eternity but the fact has been established so far. If the bible has not been tampered with, 1. Is Jehovah witness bible the word of God 2. Is catholic bible word of God 3. Which version is really from God? 4. Do we say that Moses wrote the first fuve books of the OT/ 5. Do we include letters of Luke, Paul, John, etc as part of the revelation given to Jesus? 6. What does the revelation given to Moses contains? 7. What does the revelation given to Jesus contains? 8. Is the bible 1005 inspired? Others will follow. |
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pilgrim.1 (f)
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@pilgrim
I can see that you keep getting tired to day after day for not knowing what to write. You supplied me Isaiah 9 v 6 that has been nailed long time ago. Find another verse dear and stop bringing already dead issue to fit into the present discussion. The verse couldnt have been for Jesus becausec he was not a prince of peace unless you want to tell me that he is not OT God and that he didnt order the killing spree of innocent children and keeping of virgins for the warriors. He made it known to you that his kingdom was not of this world and you keep ascriing the verse to him. Common wise up and stop decieving yourself. I thought that you would provide rebuttal to all my post but shamefully you couldnt do that.
You may deny the glaring truth till eternity but the fact has been established so far.
If the bible has not been tampered with,
1. Is Jehovah witness bible the word of God
2. Is catholic bible word of God
3. Which version is really from God?
4. Do we say that Moses wrote the first fuve books of the OT/
5. Do we include letters of Luke, Paul, John, etc as part of the revelation given to Jesus?
6. What does the revelation given to Moses contains?
7. What does the revelation given to Jesus contains?
8. Is the bible 1005 inspired?
Others will follow.
Please stop being such a coward by repeating the same thing I've already dealt with in another thread! ( http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-98121.64.html#msg1796221) You think by trying to appear in every thread with nothing new to say, you will bring glory to Allah after LYINg for him? Shame. |
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olabowale (m)
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This statement of yours, my dear Pilgrim.1, it applies to you, more than anyone I know. You should take your own advise.
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pilgrim.1 (f)
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@olabowale, I've had a very busy resumption at work after the Christmas break. Here's what I should let you understand before I prepare for my other job: This statement of yours, my dear Pilgrim.1, it applies to you, more than anyone I know. You should take your own advise. Dear olabowale, if LYING for Allah is what you hope I should take as an advice, I'm sorry to inform you that I do not seek to bring glory to him by deception! So there! It does not apply to me more than those you know only within a small clan. |
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babs787 (m)
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@pilgrim Let me attend to your post from the link you supplied. Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 04:23:25 PM
1. What does the revelation given to Moses contain
Clever fool. That goes to your elderly family members those am older than. You told us that the Torah and Injil were LOST, and we asked many times what the lost Torah and injil contained. Did you ever answer those questions? Sorry, you have been warned before, I'm not here for your Islamic games - and you can go back to your errand boys and let them know that your juju will never work on pilgrim.1. Look at this uncout mumu. You actuallty fell for the bait. I will respond to your post below Open the Bible and read for yourself what was revealed to Moses. The Torah is still part of the OT and has never been lost - contrary to your Islamic lies to make Allah say what he never once said! Now, grab your bible and tell me if Moses wrote the book of deuteronomy., contributing to his own death! Some fo your folks here said it was penned down before his death while others said that somebody helped him in drafting that chapter. Let us have a look at these verses to see if Moses actually wrote the books 'and the Lord said unto him, away get thee down 'and Moses said uot the Lord, the people cannot come' 'and the Lord said unto moses, go on before the people, ' 'and the Lord spake unto Moses saying, It is very glaring that these words are neither that of God nor Moses. Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 04:23:25 PM
2. What does the revelation given to Jesus contain
Jesus Himself is the Gospelm being preached to all the world. It was Muhammad who came along with the dubious LIE that a revelation was given to Jesus as the Injil, whereas no Muslim knows where that Injil is today! See Mumu again. She claimed that Jesus happened to be the gospel but has forgotten that Jesus said Mathew 9 v 35: and jesus went, preaching the gospel , and healing every diease among the people mark 8 v 35: but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's the same shall save it. His sayings happened to be the Gospel from the above verses and not your stupid claim that he was the Gospel. God gave him the Gospel to use that as constitution guidind him. Now I am still asking you what does the Gospel contain and if you can furnish me that, I will go into the Quran and give you the Gospel which contain everything you need to know about Jesus. Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 04:23:25 PM
when you are able to provide these, I will show that we have the revelation given to Moses, Jesus and David in the glorious Quran.
Please bring them out and let us read! Pack the stories of mere mention of their names in the Qur'an - andn when you do bring out your "stories", there will be questions for you to answer. Sister, I have been trying to show you that but you have been deluded to the extent of not been able to think and apply simply logic to the issue of corrupt torah and injil. Let me have what the Torah, Injil and Pslam contain and I will serve you all you need to know from the Quran. That is the same confused LIE that Muslims are marking time with! If the Bible was "corrupt" what prompted you to try and smuggle Muhammad into John's Gospel and Deuteronomy in previous debates? Is your bible not corrupt? Which version is the real bible so that we go into that and I will give you corrupt verses therein. Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 04:23:25 PM
1, Please do we say Catholic bible is not the word of God?
I'm not a Catholic - and if anyone has been following my discussions all along with Catholics, they already know my answer to that question. It doesnt matter, dont try running away from my question. I dont know the answer and will apprecviate you tel;ling me your answer because I want to use your response to nail you and hope you know that protestants originated frm catholic. So let me have your answer and be a good girl . Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 04:23:25 PM
2. Do we say Jehovah witness is not the word of God
How can Jehovah Witness be the Word of God? Are you that daft? Jehovah Witnesses are a denominational group - they are not the Word of God!! Sorry, I meant that 'Is jehovah witness bible not the word of God?' Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 04:23:25 PM
3. Which versions is really from God and when you supply me a version, I will give you missing verses in that, contradictions etc.
The VERSIONS are not the original manuscripts in just the same way that there are VERSIONS of the Qur'an which are saying DIFFERENT things all at once on the same verses!! Liar, can I have the original version please. How come the original manuscript is not having some verses but later editions are having same? Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 04:23:25 PM
4. Do we count the word of historian, un-inspired words, third party statement as part of the revelation given to the prophets
You already know the answer to that question. If the word of thrid party is not valid, neither is the Qur'an valid - because Allah never spoke directly to Muhammad at anytime! DENY the fact! See how she avoided my question. Do we take the un-inspired words of historians as part of the revelation given to Moses and Jesus? Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 04:23:25 PM
5. Do we include letters of Paul as part of the revelation God gave to Jesus.
You must be a classic dunce per excellence! The Revelation is the last book of the New Testament - pick up a Bible and see! That also goes to your family member older than myself. I asked a simple question but you flopped. I asked you if letters of Paul are part of the revelation God gave to Jesus but you showed your lack of home training, went hallucinating and gave me book of revelation which I didnt ask for. You may go read again and when you are through, call those older than me in your family and read to explain to you that your misfired there. Omo ti won ko ni ile, ita ni won maa ti ko.The reason why you keep sounding off these disgusting duplicity is because you love so easily to divert topics and then proffer illieterate questions by which you hope to hoodwink me. Sorry babs, it has not worked and will never work on me. I have never diverted thread but you have been the one littering threads with your nightmare of corrupt torh and injil. The threads are there for you to read and deny your dishonesty. You think by trying to appear in every thread with nothing new to say, you will bring glory to Allah after LYINg for him? Shame. You should be the one asking yourself that question. You keep appearing in thread that doesnt concern thinking that you know everythingf but alas you knew nothing. I have been telling you, I ready for you with regards to the status of Jesus, using verses from the bible as evidence while Quran will serve as our judge and it will go a long way to tell you that I have enough proof for my leaving the fraud called christianity. |
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pilgrim.1 (f)
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@babs787, @pilgrim
Let me attend to your post from the link you supplied. Interesting.  That goes to your elderly family members those am older than. Sorry, you're far removed from them - and they don't LIE for Allah as you do! Look at this uncout mumu. You actuallty fell for the bait. I will respond to your post below Keep crying and falling on yourself. I just simply want the direct answer to the queries. Now, grab your bible and tell me if Moses wrote the book of deuteronomy., contributing to his own death! Some fo your folks here said it was penned down before his death while others said that somebody helped him in drafting that chapter. That same question has been answered - shahan did a splendid job on that. What was your response. . . other than you same old illiterate DENIAL? Did you have any seasoned counters to her well refined answers? If you did, please refer and let's scale you on them. It does not help to keep pinching your belly botton and pretending that as a fresh issue. In the same vein, could you kindly let us know why YOU have been forcing your saliva to smuggle Muhammad into the same book of Deuteronomy UNTIL we came and bleached him out thoroughly? I once had to re-post the same article from stimulus where you have not gone back to say anything afater he outlined the reasons why you cannot smuggle Muhammad into Deuteronomy. After Muhammad was exposed and smoked out from that book, it is the usual thng for Muslims to turn round and attack it - as you did when you tried to attack the Gospel of john after you failed to show us where Allah ever referred to Muhammad as the "Holy Spirit" or as "the Comforter". What other book of the Bible is giving you nightmares after Muhammad was bleached out of them? Let us have a look at these verses to see if Moses actually wrote the books
'and the Lord said unto him, away get thee down
'and Moses said uot the Lord, the people cannot come'
'and the Lord said unto moses, go on before the people, '
'and the Lord spake unto Moses saying,
It is very glaring that these words are neither that of God nor Moses. Oh, I see. . . just as indeed you and your own slickers have been fighting to force Muhammad into the same book? Are you that daft that you can't understand the difference between the narratives of reported speech and direct communication? So, just because you have a difficulty with simple comprehension, this is te best offer you could dribble in here for discrediting the book of Deuteronomy? Please try harder. . . your scholarship here is clownish. See Mumu again. We dey see am. She claimed that Jesus happened to be the gospel but has forgotten that Jesus said
Mathew 9 v 35: and jesus went, preaching the gospel , and healing every diease among the people
mark 8 v 35: but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's the same shall save it. Jesus IS the very Gospel that He preached. He IS the embodiment of the Gospel He preached. The same Jesus said that NO MAN (including Muhammad) can come unto the FATHER but by Him - did you forget that? His sayings happened to be the Gospel from the above verses and not your stupid claim that he was the Gospel. Lol. . . nightschool is at work in you! Please rest the illiterate drivel and school up! If His sayings happen to be the Gospel, from where did Muhammad get the idea that 'Allah' gave Jesus the Gospel? Did Allah give Jesus His own sayings? You're such a comedian with inconsistent arguments. God gave him the Gospel to use that as constitution guidind him. I see. And one of the lines is that no man can come to the Father except by Him. Good one. Another is that He clearly stated that He came to give His life as a ransom for many (Matt. 20:28). Since God gave Him these lines as "constitution", can you please tell us why Muhammad denied the same constitution? Now I am still asking you what does the Gospel contain and if you can furnish me that, I will go into the Quran and give you the Gospel which contain everything you need to know about Jesus. Please trun to the New Testament - there you find the Gospels. Where is "everything" about the Gospel in the Qur'an? Sister, I have been trying to show you that but you have been deluded to the extent of not been able to think and apply simply logic to the issue of corrupt torah and injil. Let me have what the Torah, Injil and Pslam contain and I will serve you all you need to know from the Quran. Please stop LYING for Allah again! It is a shameless adventure trying to cover up your idiocy with further LIES! You told the Forum that the Qur'an said that the TORAH is LOST! Please I want the direct verse of the Qur'an to see where it says so - then we can deal with your smuggling Muhammad into the Torah of the Bible. This brigand excuse of a "corrupt" Torah is worn out of overuse and has not been consistently and coherently enuncited by illiterate Muslims who hatched the idea. WHERE in the Qur'an did Allah LIE to you that the Torah is LOST? Is your bible not corrupt? Which version is the real bible so that we go into that and I will give you corrupt verses therein. You been using the VERSIONS and translations of the Bible to assume that it is corrupt. First, what was Muhammad doing in a "corrupt" book? Second, is the Qur'an not also corrupt if we go into the many VERSIONS that your deceiving Muslim translators have tried to expunge? It doesnt matter, don't try running away from my question. When you wake up and answer my questions. I don't know the answer and will apprecviate you tel;ling me your answer because I want to use your response to nail you and hope you know that protestants originated frm catholic. Sorry, I know the answers - and as soon as you provide yours, you will find the same nails driven direct through your arteries. Where did Muhammad get his LIES of joining MARY in the Trinity? Is it not from the same Catholic influence? Does Allah get so confused that he did not know about the fact that the Bible NEVER assumed MARY was part of the Trinity? So let me have your answer and be a good girl . I'm waiting for you to unravel your LIES for Allah - and then we see how good a job you make at it. Sorry, I meant that 'Is jehovah witness bible not the word of God?' No worries - we know already that the Jehovah Witnesses produced a spurious VERSION of the Bible. Liar, can I have the original version please. How come the original manuscript is not having some verses but later editions are having same? How do you know the "original" manuscript that you have been arguing against all along? Please post a copy and we shall take it from there. See how she avoided my question. Do we take the un-inspired words of historians as part of the revelation given to Moses and Jesus? Did the Qur'an address them as the un-inspired words of historians? That also goes to your family member older than myself. Which unfortunately is far removed from reality. And if you want more, I have them plenty - please let us have your answers for the LIES you tried to put in Allah's mouth about the questions I have offered you. Until you provide answers to them, don't assume you have upgraded from your daft corner. I asked a simple question but you flopped. I offered you a simple answer but you couldn't read. I asked you if letters of Paul are part of the revelation God gave to Jesus but you showed your lack of home training, went hallucinating and gave me book of revelation which I didnt ask for. Daft again. There is a book of Revelation in the Bible and I pointed that out. The epistles of Paul are not to be confused for Muhammad's LIES that Allah gave Injil to Jesus. As far as we know, the epistles of Paul are part of the New Testament. You may go read again and when you are through, call those older than me in your family and read to explain to you that your misfired there. Omo ti won ko ni ile, ita ni won maa ti ko. Please stop showing further how daft Muslims can be! We know you guys are many years behind a basic education - and you don't have to be so embarrassed admitting it in public. Your Qur'an acknowledges the FACT that Christians are scholars (devoted to learning - Sura 5 v 82). If you no agree, close that book and throw it in the bin. I have never diverted thread but you have been the one littering threads with your nightmare of corrupt torh and injil. The threads are there for you to read and deny your dishonesty. LIES again. Your rejoinder here was harvested from ANOTHER thread where you littered it with the same question you brought here. TRUE or FALSE? You should be the one asking yourself that question. You keep appearing in thread that doesnt concern thinking that you know everythingf but alas you knew nothing. I hear - e dey pain you for body, abi? I have been telling you, I ready for you with regards to the status of Jesus, using verses from the bible as evidence while Quran will serve as our judge and it will go a long way to tell you that I have enough proof for my leaving the fraud called christianity. I hear. Until we settle the LIES Muhammad told you guys in claiming that he believed in all the prophets when in FACT he DENIED their revelations, keep fooling yourself in the same darkness and deceit that has kept you going on the same adventures of LYING for 'Allah'. Can you please let us know WHERE Allah LIED in the same book you want to use as "judge" about the Qur'an coming to CORRECT the Bible? I want the verse, QED. |
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babs787 (m)
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@Pilgrim Quote from: babs787 on Today at 07:51:17 PM
Now, grab your bible and tell me if Moses wrote the book of deuteronomy., contributing to his own death! Some fo your folks here said it was penned down before his death while others said that somebody helped him in drafting that chapter. Now shahan did a splendid job there by lying but your davidylan said it was penned down by someone after his death. So which one do I hold on to? That same question has been answered - shahan did a splendid job on that. What was your response. . . other than you same old illiterate DENIAL? Did you have any seasoned counters to her well refined answers? If you did, please refer and let's scale you on them. It does not help to keep pinching your belly botton and pretending that as a fresh issue. Let me have her season response please. In the same vein, could you kindly let us know why YOU have been forcing your saliva to smuggle Muhammad into the same book of Deuteronomy UNTIL we came and bleached him out thoroughly? I once had to re-post the same article from stimulus where you have not gone back to say anything afater he outlined the reasons why you cannot smuggle Muhammad into Deuteronomy. You havent and you will not be able to do that. Lwet me have that article and rebuttal will follow same. I still have lots of prophecy therein that you will not be able to deny. After Muhammad was exposed and smoked out from that book, it is the usual thng for Muslims to turn round and attack it - as you did when you tried to attack the Gospel of john after you failed to show us where Allah ever referred to Muhammad as the "Holy Spirit" or as "the Comforter". He was never but you failed in telling me if Holy spirit has never been in existence and if it has been, the verse couldnt have been for holy spirit. What other book of the Bible is giving you nightmares after Muhammad was bleached out of them? He was not but you could wriggle yourself out of holy spirit being in existence already. Quote from: babs787 on Today at 07:51:17 PM
Let us have a look at these verses to see if Moses actually wrote the books
'and the Lord said unto him, away get thee down
'and Moses said uot the Lord, the people cannot come'
'and the Lord said unto moses, go on before the people, '
'and the Lord spake unto Moses saying,
It is very glaring that these words are neither that of God nor Moses.
Oh, I see. . . just as indeed you and your own slickers have been fighting to force Muhammad into the same book? Are you that daft that you can't understand the difference between the narratives of reported speech and direct communication? So, just because you have a difficulty with simple comprehension, this is te best offer you could dribble in here for discrediting the book of Deuteronomy? Please try harder. . . your scholarship here is clownish. Your family are that daft to the extent of not understanding simple verses. Now, who was reporting who in the inspired word of God given to Moses and written down by Moses? See yuour deceit Jesus IS the very Gospel that He preached. He IS the embodiment of the Gospel He preached. The same Jesus said that NO MAN (including Muhammad) can come unto the FATHER but by Him - did you forget that? But you have forgotten that he also said that no one can come to the father except the father draws him? Quote from: babs787 on Today at 07:51:17 PM
God gave him the Gospel to use that as constitution guidind him.
I see. And one of the lines is that no man can come to the Father except by Him. Good one. Another is that He clearly stated that He came to give His life as a ransom for many (Matt. 20:28). Since God gave Him these lines as "constitution", can you please tell us why Muhammad denied the same constitution? Hope you know that he said that no one can come to him except if father draws him?Did he actually die for your sin? Please stop LYING for Allah again! It is a shameless adventure trying to cover up your idiocy with further LIES! Let me have what those revelation contain and I will give you what bible historians never included in your bible You told the Forum that the Qur'an said that the TORAH is LOST! Please I want the direct verse of the Qur'an to see where it says so - then we can deal with your smuggling Muhammad into the Torah of the Bible. This brigand excuse of a "corrupt" Torah is worn out of overuse and has not been consistently and coherently enuncited by illiterate Muslims who hatched the idea. Is your bible not corrupt and can you say that the revelation is the same as that given to Jesus and your response will determine my using encyclopedia for you as well. We will know if really the revelation is in its original state. WHERE in the Qur'an did Allah LIE to you that the Torah is LOST? Keep hallucinating . Quote from: babs787 on Today at 07:51:17 PM
Is your bible not corrupt? Which version is the real bible so that we go into that and I will give you corrupt verses therein.
You been using the VERSIONS and translations of the Bible to assume that it is corrupt.
First, what was Muhammad doing in a "corrupt" book?
Second, is the Qur'an not also corrupt if we go into the many VERSIONS that your deceiving Muslim translators have tried to expunge? Can you tell the real bible from those versions because all do not agree in some instances and how come original is not having some verses but later editions of your bible are having same and are claiming to have copied same from original manuscript!! Sorry, I know the answers - and as soon as you provide yours, you will find the same nails driven direct through your arteries. Where did Muhammad get his LIES of joining MARY in the Trinity? Is it not from the same Catholic influence? Does Allah get so confused that he did not know about the fact that the Bible NEVER assumed MARY was part of the Trinity? Can I have the verse where He joined Mary? Bbaygirl, stop your game with me cos it wont help you, is catholic bible the word of God? Quote from: babs787 on Today at 07:51:17 PM
Sorry, I meant that 'Is jehovah witness bible not the word of God?'
No worries - we know already that the Jehovah Witnesses produced a spurious VERSION of the Bible. Is their bible also word of God or not? How do you know the "original" manuscript that you have been arguing against all along? Please post a copy and we shall take it from there. Hee hee, do you still need dat? check this link for your answer http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.0.htmlAlso read somze response to the missing verses from original manuscript @babs787
Quote
If you are saying the bible is complete and without going to the number of books in the protestants and catholics bible, without making reference to Encyclopedia Britannica about the removal of some books, apocryphal books etc
, tell me why these verses are not in some bibles apart from KJV.
a.Mathew 17 v 21 (b) mark 11 v 26 (c) acts 8 v 37 (d) Mathew 17 v 21 (e) Mathew 21 v 44 (f) Mathew 23 v 14 etc
Do you even read the lettered subscript references of bibles ( they are mostly on all the page)? All i did was bring out my bible (which by the way has four versions in it) and i found the answers to your question. I'm guessing you just picked those up from a site without further research.
a)because the verse is omitted in many of the ancient manuscript.
b) Many ancient manuscripts add verse 26, ALL include this in matthew 6:15
c) Many ancient manuscripts omit verse 37 wholly or in part.
d) YOU REPEATED QUESTION A.
e) Some manuscript do not have vs 44
f) Some manuscript skip some add.
One thing with putting the bible up is that a whole lot of different reliable manuscripts are used. If something is omitted, depending on the number of the manuscripts were omissions exist these decisions are taken, i think.
One thing you notice is that whether present or not, the message is not corrupted and fundamentals in christianity are not affected.
Please look up on papyrus (ancient manuscripts)look up on it) And my response to him . Mathew 17 v 21
a)because the verse is omitted in many of the ancient manuscript.
If the verse is omitted in many ancient manuscript as being put,then where did King James Version get its own verse
(b) mark 11 v 26
b) Many ancient manuscripts add verse 26, ALL include this in matthew 6:15
If many ancient manuscripts add verse 26, where are they not included in the bible of nowadays?
(c) acts 8 v 37
c) Many ancient manuscripts omit verse 37 wholly or in part.
If ancients manuscripts omitted verse 37, where did King James Version get its own verse and was it included since ancient manuscripts do not have it?
d) YOU REPEATED QUESTION A.
Oh, am sorry for that.
(e) Mathew 21 v 44
e) Some manuscript do not have vs 44
If some manuscripts do not have the verse, where did KJV get its own from?
(f) Mathew 23 v 14 etc
f) Some manuscript skip some add.
Why did some manuscripts skip some? Why did KJV has the verse while others do not? Get the full gist here http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.32.htmlQuote from: babs787 on Today at 07:51:17 PM
See how she avoided my question. Do we take the un-inspired words of historians as part of the revelation given to Moses and Jesus?
Did the Qur'an address them as the un-inspired words of historians? Do we add the letters as part of the revelation God gave Jesus? Quote from: babs787 on Today at 07:51:17 PM
I asked you if letters of Paul are part of the revelation God gave to Jesus but you showed your lack of home training, went hallucinating and gave me book of revelation which I didnt ask for.
Daft again. There is a book of Revelation in the Bible and I pointed that out. Mumu, I know that there is a book of revelation in the bible but I am asking you here if the letters of Paul are part of the revelation God gave Jesus The epistles of Paul are not to be confused for Muhammad's LIES that Allah gave Injil to Jesus. As far as we know, the epistles of Paul are part of the New Testament. Are they part of the revelation God gave to Jesus? Simple question I hear. Until we settle the LIES Muhammad told you guys in claiming that he believed in all the prophets when in FACT he DENIED their revelations, keep fooling yourself in the same darkness and deceit that has kept you going on the same adventures of LYING for 'Allah'. Can you please let us know WHERE Allah LIED in the same book you want to use as "judge" about the Qur'an coming to CORRECT the Bible? Let me have the revelation he denied. Hope you are not referring to leters of Paul, Luke etc |
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pilgrim.1 (f)
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@Pilgrim Now shahan did a splendid job there by lying but your davidylan said it was penned down by someone after his death. So which one do I hold on to? Let me have her season response please. You havent and you will not be able to do that. Lwet me have that article and rebuttal will follow same. I still have lots of prophecy therein that you will not be able to deny. He was never but you failed in telling me if Holy spirit has never been in existence and if it has been, the verse couldnt have been for holy spirit. He was not but you could wriggle yourself out of holy spirit being in existence already. Your family are that daft to the extent of not understanding simple verses. Now, who was reporting who in the inspired word of God given to Moses and written down by Moses? See yuour deceit But you have forgotten that he also said that no one can come to the father except the father draws him? Hope you know that he said that no one can come to him except if father draws him?Did he actually die for your sin? Let me have what those revelation contain and I will give you what bible historians never included in your bible Is your bible not corrupt and can you say that the revelation is the same as that given to Jesus and your response will determine my using encyclopedia for you as well. We will know if really the revelation is in its original state. Keep hallucinating . Can you tell the real bible from those versions because all do not agree in some instances and how come original is not having some verses but later editions of your bible are having same and are claiming to have copied same from original manuscript!! Can I have the verse where He joined Mary? Bbaygirl, stop your game with me because it wont help you, is catholic bible the word of God? Is their bible also word of God or not? How do you know the "original" manuscript that you have been arguing against all along? Please post a copy and we shall take it from there. Hee hee, do you still need that? check this link for your answer http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.0.htmlAlso read somze response to the missing verses from original manuscript And my response to him . Get the full gist here http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.32.html Do we add the letters as part of the revelation God gave Jesus? Mumu, I know that there is a book of revelation in the bible but I am asking you here if the letters of Paul are part of the revelation God gave Jesus Are they part of the revelation God gave to Jesus? Simple question Let me have the revelation he denied. Hope you are not referring to leters of Paul, Luke etc If shahan lied, babs. . . if she did, what was your counter response INSTEAD of denying the facts as stated in those rejoinders? Have Muslims not confused themselves so many times saying different things on this Forum? All you do is DENY issues - is that why your DENIALS took you to the Bible to attempt smuggling Muhammad into its pages? |
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babs787 (m)
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@pilgrim If shahan lied, babs. . . if she did, what was your counter response INSTEAD of denying the facts as stated in those rejoinders? Have Muslims not confused themselves so many times saying different things on this Forum? All you do is DENY issues - is that why your DENIALS took you to the Bible to attempt smuggling Muhammad into its pages? I have been doing that with you using your bible to nail you. Shahan lied that it penned down by Moses but your brother here DAVIDYLAN SAID that IT PENNED DOWN BY HIS FRIEND Now with regards to Shahan's lie, Moses couldnt have written the book of Deuteronomy because he couldnt have predicted his death and if he happened to have written that, we shouldnt be seeing third party statement in that very book as in 'God said to Moses" etc. It showed that it was a reported speech done after Moses' death. So your lie will never work with me here. You also asked me for the originalk manuscript and I gave you where I exposed your bible and one of your brothers, Somze. This is the link again: http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.0.html
Also read somze response to the missing verses from original manuscriptAnd my response to him http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.32.html Do we add the letters of Paul, Luke etc as part of the revelation God gave Jesus? Your game will never work with me and you know that |
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pilgrim.1 (f)
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@pilgrim I have been doing that with you using your bible to nail you. Shahan lied that it penned down by Moses but your brother here DAVIDYLAN SAID that IT PENNED DOWN BY HIS FRIEND Now with regards to Shahan's lie, Moses couldnt have written the book of Deuteronomy because he couldnt have predicted his death and if he happened to have written that, we shouldnt be seeing third party statement in that very book as in 'God said to Moses" etc. It showed that it was a reported speech done after Moses' death. So your lie will never work with me here. You also asked me for the originalk manuscript and I gave you where I exposed your bible and one of your brothers, Somze. This is the link again: http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.0.html
Also read somze response to the missing verses from original manuscriptAnd my response to him http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.32.html Do we add the letters of Paul, Luke etc as part of the revelation God gave Jesus? Your game will never work with me and you know that @babs787, Rather than fight yourself with foaming in the mouth, have you carefully enunciated how shahan or anyone you quoted LIED? You're forcing yourself to believe that they LIED - just for the game to soothe your conscience - just where has that happened and HOW did you point out the precise author of the same book does not appear in your rejoinder. |
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babs787 (m)
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@pilgrim.1 Rather than fight yourself with foaming in the mouth, have you carefully enunciated how shahan or anyone you quoted LIED? You're forcing yourself to believe that they LIED I am not forcing myself but its there for you see if only you will shun pride and arrogance and accept the truth. Moses couldnt have penned down his obituary: So Moses died, And he Buried Him , He was 120 years old when he died, And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses Now Moses wrote his obituary, his years on earth etc. Did you notice that tense used therein: he was 120 years old when he died. Common, stop fooling yourself Also and the Lord spoke to Moses and the Lord said unto Moses etc Do we say Moses wrote the above too? |
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pilgrim.1 (f)
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@babs787, @pilgrim.1
I am not forcing myself but its there for you see if only you will shun pride and arrogance and accept the truth. Muslims really need to shun pride and arrogance and accept the truth. So far, it has become second nature to you that when simple statements are presented, your pride bols over and all you do is deny whatever you read! So that things don't get overblown out of context for you, my single request was this: have you carefully enunciated how shahan or anyone you quoted LIED? . . .and up until now, you have not done so! You cannot claim that someone is lying when you have no alternative answers to offer for the authroship of the said Deuteronomy! To deny issues is the easiest thing on the face of the earth! Any illiterate can do that! But what really counts at the end of the day is whether you are able to show your mettle and any jot of intelligence in carefully enunciatng the answer to the issue being discussed. For instance (this is only an illustration), if someone tells me that the author of 'Things Fall Apart' is Chinua Achebe, and I doubt and deny that, then it is so, then I am held accountable to offer an alternative answer and demonstrate clearly to everyone that the author is another identifiable figure! You cannot keep denying what others have presented and accuse them of lying UNTIL you have something more tangible to offer for who exactly the author of the said book is!! Failing to provide the real IDENTIFIABLE author is a huge failure on your part - and nothing in your accusations actually makes the case any easier for your or your sympathizers! That was why I asked you a simple question earlier which I have repeated again! |
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pilgrim.1 (f)
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@babs787, Moses couldnt have penned down his obituary: That is not the issue, my dear. You guys pretend that it was impossible for Moses to have written down his own obituary (as a matter of PROPHECY as God revealed the same to him). . . but you have no problem with Moses have written down things which would happen LONG AFTER he had died! If Moses could have written down things which happened BEFORE, DURING and AFTER his time, what is the difficulty in writing down even his own obituary, babs787?!? When you go through the Bible, you find that there are other prophets apart from Moses who wrote accounts about others and even themselves BEFORE they happened - and Muslims have quoted from those books in order to find Muhammad in them! Let me give you an example - the prophet ISAIAH! This is the one prophet that even YOU babs787 have tried to quote in other to buttress a claim that Muhamad is found in the book of Isaiah - and yet, that is one prophet that Muslims really are very uncomfortable to find mentioned anywhere in either the Qur'an or the hadiths! Yet, even Isaiah mentioned something about himself that most people will find beyond their senses to comprehend! He spoke about himself walking barefooted and naked (Isaiah 20). In the same vein, I have heard Muslims make the complaint like yours: 'how could Isaiah write thus and thus about himself'? And therefore they use that as a reason for disbelieving in Isaiah! But when I ask these Muslims if 'Allah' asked them to believe in only some of the prophets, they have never answered my question - and as usual, all they have offered are mere arguments that are about other things from what I had asked!! Now babs787, I have a few questions for you: (a) WHY do YOU find your own excuse a matter for disbeliving the authurship of Deuteronomy to be Moses? (b) WHY do other MUSLIMS believe that Deuteronomy was authored by Moses? (c) WHY have Muslims (including YOU) ever tried to quote the same Deuteronomy for Muhammad if they have hude doubts that it was written by Moses? Did you notice that tense used therein: he was 120 years old when he died. Common, stop fooling yourself I am not fooling myself - that is why I am trying to reason here with you calmly.  The reason why I would like you to check your allegations again and see that they are baseless is because even YOU babs787 have tried to quote from the same Deuteronomy! I find that a rather hypocritical thing to do when you can then come back and attack the same book that you have referenced as authored by Moses for the prophecy that Muhammad was the one spoken of in Deut. 18!! Also
and the Lord spoke to Moses
and the Lord said unto Moses etc
Do we say Moses wrote the above too? I have no problem with the LORD speaking to Moses. Infact there is absolutely no reason WHY anyone should doubt that: (a) Deuteronomy was written by the same author that the LORD spoke to; (b) Deuteronomy was written by the same author whom you had once quoted for Muhammad! As a matter of fact, the example of ISAIAH comes to mind again. Please notice 3 characteristic ways in which God spoke to Isaiah - which is exactly HOW He spoke to Moses: (a) Isa. 7:3 -- Then said the LORD unto Isaiah (b) Isa. 20:2 -- At the same time spake the LORD by Isaiah Please compare these with HOW the LORD spoke to Moses: (a) Exodus 16:4 -- Then said the LORD unto Moses (b) Exodus 9:35 -- as the LORD had spoken by Moses WHY should anyone want to deliberately want to find issues where there are NONE (especially those who have closed their hearts to truth)?!? There isn't any sense in the reasons you have advanced for doubting both the book of Deuteronomy and its author! |
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babs787 (m)
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@pilgrim When you go through the Bible, you find that there are other prophets apart from Moses who wrote accounts about others and even themselves BEFORE they happened - and Muslims have quoted from those books in order to find Muhammad in them! Can I have such prophecies? Yet, even Isaiah mentioned something about himself that most people will find beyond their senses to comprehend! He spoke about himself walking barefooted and naked (Isaiah 20). In the same vein, I have heard Muslims make the complaint like yours: 'how could Isaiah write thus and thus about himself'? And therefore they use that as a reason for disbelieving in Isaiah! Can you please give me the full quote? Now babs787, I have a few questions for you:
(a) WHY do YOU find your own excuse a matter for disbeliving the authurship of Deuteronomy to be Moses? Moses never wrote it and additional facts will emerge from me soon (b) WHY do other MUSLIMS believe that Deuteronomy was authored by Moses? I have given you facts from your bible showing that he never wrote the Deuteronomy you carry about (c) WHY have Muslims (including YOU) ever tried to quote the same Deuteronomy for Muhammad if they have hude doubts that it was written by Moses? It is same corruption we have been talking about which you have been denying. I am not fooling myself - that is why I am trying to reason here with you calmly. Ok ma The reason why I would like you to check your allegations again and see that they are baseless is because even YOU babs787 have tried to quote from the same Deuteronomy! I find that a rather hypocritical thing to do when you can then come back and attack the same book that you have referenced as authored by Moses for the prophecy that Muhammad was the one spoken of in Deut. 18!! My quoting from that book doesnt mean that it is 100% correct and I raised a thread where I asked you if the bible is 100% inspired word of God and it is in that thread we will shed light on most of the chapters of the bible and see who the real authors are. I have no problem with the LORD speaking to Moses. Infact there is absolutely no reason WHY anyone should doubt that:
(a) Deuteronomy was written by the same author that the LORD spoke to; It couldnt have been written by Moses (b) Deuteronomy was written by the same author whom you had once quoted for Muhammad! Far from that sister.It further exposes the corruption I have been talking all these while. Now let us look at that verse again: So Moses died, And he Buried Him , He was 120 years old when he died, And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses Things to be noted here: 1. Moses died and not he will die 2. And he buried him and not he will bury him.(Who buried him please) 3. He was 120 years old when he died and not he will die at the age of 120 years. As a matter of fact, the example of ISAIAH comes to mind again. Please notice 3 characteristic ways in which God spoke to Isaiah - which is exactly HOW He spoke to Moses:
(a) Isa. 7:3 -- Then said the LORD unto Isaiah Did he write this himself? (b) Isa. 20:2 -- At the same time spake the LORD by Isaiah Did he write this by himself? Please compare these with HOW the LORD spoke to Moses:
(a) Exodus 16:4 -- Then said the LORD unto Moses
(b) Exodus 9:35 -- as the LORD had spoken by Moses
WHY should anyone want to deliberately want to find issues where there are NONE (especially those who have closed their hearts to truth)?!?
There isn't any sense in the reasons you have advanced for doubting both the book of Deuteronomy and its author! You know the truth and you cannot deny ithe fact that Moses didnt write that book, it was written by third party hence the tenses used therein. |
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babs787 (m)
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@pilgrim.1
Moses was a prophet, but writing about his own death in Deuteronomy 31:9,24 would be unusual. However, none of these three examples indicate anything written later than Moses’ time.
See Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties p.112-113 and p.153-154 and When Critics Ask p.132 for more info.
Modern apologetics try to pass its writing to people who lived in Joshua's time.
a) The author remarks that Moses died? Therefore Moses did not write this chapter, which proves the tradition false, for now there is another writer in the Torah. For chapter 34 is part of the Torah, and was always part of the Torah. Even among the most ancient Torahs, this chapter is included.
b) The author notes that Moses burial place is unknown "to this day?" Therefore, the author does not know where Moses is buried. The elders in Joshua's time would have been the one's who buried him; as such, they would have remembered. This implies generations.
c) The author notes that "no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses?" Therefore, there have been other prophets that have arisen in Israel, and the author is aware of them. More evidence that sufficient time has passed that a comparison could be made. \
Objections largely met through various forms of explanation (including midrash). But in the medieval period, the objections began to be met with an acknowledgment that Moses may not have been the sole author:
In the eleventh century, Isaac ibn Yashush, a Jewish court physician of a ruler in Muslim Spain, pointed out that a list of Edomite kings that appears in Genesis 36 named kings who lived long after Moses was dead. Ibn Yashush suggested that the list was written by someone who lived after Moses. The response to his conclusion was that he was called "Isaac the blunderer."
But the man who called him this, 12th ct. Spanish rabbi Ibn Ezra added
, several passages that appeared not to be from Moses' own hand: passages that referred to Moses in the third person, used terms that Moses would not have known, described places where Moses had never been, and used language that reflected another time and locale from those of Moses.
Friedman suggests that Ibn Ezra recognized that these passages confirmed ibn Yashush's claim - but advised silence.
The silence was broken in the 14th ct. by Bonfils in Damascus. Bonfils wrote
"And this is evidence that this verse was written in the Torah later, and Moses did not write it; rather one of the later prophets wrote it." Bonfils was not denying the revealed character of the text. He still thought that the passages in question were written by "one of the later prophets." He was only concluding that they were not written by Moses. Still, three and a half centuries later, his work was reprinted with the references to the subject deleted.
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pilgrim.1 (f)
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@babs787, @pilgrim
Can I have such prophecies? Please be specific as what "prophecies" - the ones Muslims have tried to invent into Isaiah for Muhammad; or which one? Have you not tried to quote Isaiah for Muhammad as well? Can you please give me the full quote? Please, babs. . . stop being so childish! I never have to wait for Muslims to give me this and that before i quote from the Qur'an. This game you often play show how hypocritic you choose to be often times. Here is an example of verses from Isaiah 20: 2At the same time spake the LORD by Isaiah the son of Amoz, saying, Go and loose the sackcloth from off thy loins, and put off thy shoe from thy foot. And he did so, walking naked and barefoot. 3And the LORD said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia; 4So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt. What was your phobia in simply going to chpater 20 of Isaiah and reading it for yourself, instead of pretending not to have seen it and asking that I quote them? Moses never wrote it and additional facts will emerge from me soon I have given you facts from your bible showing that he never wrote the Deuteronomy you carry about Clever attempt to duck the question I asked! Your responses here did NOT answer my questions. Here again: (a) WHY do YOU find your own excuse a matter for disbelieving the authorship of Deuteronomy to be Moses? I am particularly focusing on why YOU would still have to come round disbelieving the authorship of the same book YOU have quoted as a reference of Moses' own writing as a prophecy for MUHAMMAD! If you knew Muhammad was NOT in the Deuteronomy we carry about, why then where you quoting from the same book to reference Muhammad in it? I consider that as a classic example of hypocrisy. Please cease from such and do yourself some good. Moses never wrote it and additional facts will emerge from me soon I am waiting for those additional "facts" - but it will only show the same thing as I have asserted before! If Moses never wrote the same book of Deuteronomy, then my second question again: (b) WHY do other MUSLIMS believe that Deuteronomy was authored by Moses? You did not answer that question, babs787. . . or are you not one of those who had been plagiarizing materials from Muslim propagandists to "prove" that Moses prophesied about Muhammad's coming in Deuteronomy 18?  Are you forcing yourself so soon to pretend to have forgotten that you did so? So, whenever you answer that question as to why OTHER Muslims believe that book was written by Moses, you would only have succeeded in showing that those Muslims are WRONG! As you attempt to prove the Muslim duplicity of your propagandists, let's remind you of a few official Muslim/Islamic authors and websites that have attempted to quote the same Deuteronomy (not another Deuteronomy) in belief that Moses actually is its author in reference for Muhammad: (#1) From the Salaheddin Islamic Center: In Deuteronomy 18,18 Moses stated that God told him: “I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers;
I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything
I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet
speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.”
(Deuteronomy 18:18-19).Please note: the Salaheddin Islamic Center clearly recognized that text to be attributed to MOSES! Please cross-check to see that they were quoting from the same Bible (NIV precisely) that people like you often try to hypocritically castigate! Could you explain WHY these Muslims were quoting from the same Deuteronomy and not from another one and recognizing it as attributed to MOSES? Please notice also that the same website quoted ISAIAH (Isaiah 42:1-13 and Isaiah 28:10 and Isaiah 28:11 KJV) for their propagandato find Muhammad in the prophet Isaiah - the same prophet that was never referenced anywhere in Islam!! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (#2) Another website ( Institute of Islamic Information and Education) also carries an article from Dr. Jamal Badawi, Ph.D. Even this Muslim author of such a high profile quotes Deueteronomy and attributes it to MOSES: A long time after Abraham, God's promise to send the long-awaited Messenger was repeated, this time in Moses' words. In Deuteronomy 18:18, Moses spoke of the prophet to be sent by God who is: 1) From among the Israelite's "brethren". . .
2) A prophet like unto Moses. . . Not only so, but Dr Badawi goes on to quote from the same Bible that Muslims castigate, in order to attempt "proving" his theory of finding Muhammad in the Bible. Some of the various verses from the Bible that he quoted include: Deuteronomy 33:1-2 Genesis 21:21 Psalms 84:4-6 Isaiah 42:1-13 Isaiah 21:13-17 Isaiah 28:11 Habakkuk 3:3 John 16:13 John 1:19-21 the Gospel according to John (chaptcrs 14, 15, 16) Matthew 21:19-21 Deuteronomy 33:2 KJVIt would be interesting to see your additional "facts" of denying all these texts, babs787. . . so that Dr. Jamal Badawi could very quickly throw his doctoral "Ph.D" in the bin! These are just TWO references to show that even Islamic websites and highly placed and respected Muslim theologians acknowledge that the Deuteronomy that they quote from the BIBLE is the very one they claim was authored by MOSES! It is same corruption we have been talking about which you have been denying. The question was a direct and simple one: (c) WHY have Muslims (including YOU) ever tried to quote the same Deuteronomy for Muhammad if they have huge doubts that it was written by Moses? Here the question was about the author being MOSES. . . but you are trying to cover up the FACT that Muslims are fond of such duplicity of quoting the same Bible to accredit Muhammad's fallacies! WHY have Muslims then been quoting the same Deuteronomy and then acknowledging (like Dr. Jamal Badawi) it as in " MOSES words"? What is the correlation between YOUR DENIAL and these Muslim scholars who acknowledge that they are attributed to Moses as being its author? Babs787, this shameless duplicity you have taken up is simply because Muhammad has been bleached and the Muslim attempted to smuggle him into the Bible has been rubbished! That is why people like you are so upset that the only thing you can do now are: (a) LIE for 'Allah' that the Qur'an stated that the Torah was LOST! I have asked you to give me where the Qur'an STATED any such things. . . and up until now you have colosally FAILED to live up to a man and provide the verse in the Qur'an for that assertion! (b) DENY everything about the Bible because you can no longer find Muhammad in it! This is one of the interesting propaganda tools employed by most Muslim scholars today - DENY as much as they can and yet forget that they themselves have actually tried to quote the Bible for Muhammad! Double-talkers and slickers all of them! (c) Look for every excuse to keep DENYING the FACTS presented to them! In this one, Muslim 'scholars' precisely show how illiterate they are! Because often times, if they are asked simple questions, all one gets to read are excuses that never directly address the questions offered! My dear babs787, a heart exercised with such duplicity that you have made your career is not going to help Islam. Please seek the simple truth and stop this career of talking from both sides of your mouth and LYING for 'Allah' to make him say what he never said! |
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pilgrim.1 (f)
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@babs787, @pilgrim.1
Moses was a prophet, but writing about his own death in Deuteronomy 31:9,24 would be unusual. However, none of these three examples indicate anything written later than Moses’ time.
See Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties p.112-113 and p.153-154 and When Critics Ask p.132 for more info.
Modern apologetics try to pass its writing to people who lived in Joshua's time. I see. Please consult such people like the example I gave you who have quoted Deuteronomy and attributed its authorship to Moses! You claimed that Moses never wrote that BOOK: @pilgrim Moses never wrote it and additional facts will emerge from me soon . . . I have given you facts from your bible showing that he never wrote the Deuteronomy you carry about . . . It couldnt have been written by Moses Three times you denied the obvious FACT; but Dr. Jamal Badawi acknowledges that Deuteronomy was " this time in MOSES words" (please see my rejoinder just above). Of course there are very many Muslim authors who make the same claim and also acknowledge the same Deuteronomy as being authored by Moses! There are loads of them besides the two examples I offered you earlier - and these are all from reputable authors and highly placed Muslim individuals. Could it then be that they were also being dubious and saying the very opposite thing that YOU babs787 are excusing with such hypocrisy here? Besides, I took time to offer you the opportunity of providing the authorship of Deuteronomy. WHERE have you done so? I clearly pointed out that DENYING issues is the easiest thing anyone can do on earth. . . but it is not so easy for such people to prove their mettle by going one step further and providing answers where they disagree with those already offered. That was why I used the example of Chinua Achebe in Things Fall Apart! @babs787,
Muslims really need to shun pride and arrogance and accept the truth. So far, it has become second nature to you that when simple statements are presented, your pride boils over and all you do is deny whatever you read!
So that things don't get overblown out of context for you, my single request was this:. . .and up until now, you have not done so! You cannot claim that someone is lying when you have no alternative answers to offer for the authorship of the said Deuteronomy!
To deny issues is the easiest thing on the face of the earth! Any illiterate can do that! But what really counts at the end of the day is whether you are able to show your mettle and any jot of intelligence in carefully enunciatng the answer to the issue being discussed.
For instance (this is only an illustration), if someone tells me that the author of 'Things Fall Apart' is Chinua Achebe, and I doubt and deny that, then it is so, then I am held accountable to offer an alternative answer and demonstrate clearly to everyone that the author is another identifiable figure!
You cannot keep denying what others have presented and accuse them of lying UNTIL you have something more tangible to offer for who exactly the author of the said book is!! Failing to provide the real IDENTIFIABLE author is a huge failure on your part - and nothing in your accusations actually makes the case any easier for your or your sympathizers!
That was why I asked you a simple question earlier which I have repeated again! If you have any grain of intelligence, please stop hiding behind the easiest way out by DENYING issues again and again without providing who the author really is. You go one step further and show us WHO exactly the author of Deuteronomy is, so we can know that people like Dr. Jamal Badawi are simply being kids at their games! |
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davidylan (m)
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Pilgrim.1 just took blabs787 to the cleaners. What an astute reply!
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pilgrim.1 (f)
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Pilgrim.1 just took blabs787 to the cleaners. What an astute reply! Lol. . . how bodi? That's why sometimes I simply go it easy and allow these folks to come forward to be bleached! I am waiting to see how he confirms that Muslim scholars like Dr. Jamal Badawi were simply being hypocritical in quoting the Bible for Muhammad! |
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zenzey (m)
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Nigerians  We do as if we are the most Godly on earth,meanwhile we are the most corrupt set of people. I think both parties need to have respect for one another.Has anyone of you been to heaven before now?All the verbal abuse,accusation and counter accusation you are raining on yourselves is unnecessary.Why not hold on to what you think is right and leave everything to God to judge. May God/Allah/Jesus, help us o |
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babs787 (m)
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@Davidylan You should be ashamed of yourself ;Dand shouldnt have posted anything here because you said that it was completed by one of hs subordinates. @Pilgrim.1 I saw your post but will like to ask you a question: 1. Can you show me from all you posted and with reference to the links supplied, where they said that Moses wrote those verses in question, writing about his own death (not a prophecy) etc? Thanks |
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dafidixone (m)
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Muhammed was a trader, he travelled to different part of Arab and environ. It is possible for someone of such to learn about different religion and culture. In an attempt to put everything together he bring confusion. And being a man who beleive in force here the musulumi are today. This is a fact that they may not accept. Muhammed history was so recent and this could be possible. |
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babs787 (m)
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@dafidixone
In order not to deviate, can you please assist your sister in answering that question?
@Pilgrim.1
I saw your post but will like to ask you a question:
1. Can you show me from all you posted and with reference to the links supplied, where they said that Moses wrote those verses in question, writing about his own death (not a prophecy) etc?
Thanks
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pilgrim.1 (f)
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@babs787, @Pilgrim.1
I saw your post but will like to ask you a question:
1. Can you show me from all you posted and with reference to the links supplied, where they said that Moses wrote those verses in question, writing about his own death (not a prophecy) etc? Lol. . . look again at the claims you made earlier, babs787: @pilgrim
Moses never wrote it and additional facts will emerge from me soon
. . .
I have given you facts from your bible showing that he never wrote the Deuteronomy you carry about
. . .
It couldnt have been written by Moses Since it is characteristic for you to deny everything you read (especially when straightforward statements are presented), my simple submission was to take you to the cleaners and expose you to MUSLIMS themselves who have referred to Moses as the author of Deuteronomy. Reminder: #1. Dr. Jamal Bawadi (from the Institute of Islamic Information and Education) quotes Deuteronomy and makes this statement: A long time after Abraham, God's promise to send the long-awaited Messenger was repeated, this time in Moses' words. In Deuteronomy 18:18, Moses spoke of the prophet to be sent by God who is: 1) From among the Israelite's "brethren". . . 2) A prophet like unto Moses. . . One wonders what Dr. Jamal meant by " Moses' words" when he quoted from the same Deuteronomy from the Bible? #2. The Salaheddin Islamic Center, in quoting Deuteronomy 18, makes the following statement: In Deuteronomy 18,18 Moses stated that God told him One wonders what this Islamic source means by "Moses stated" when they quoted Deuteronomy. In referencing these two sources (among multiplied other Muslim sources), the pointers are clear that the authors did not once hint or DENY that Deuteronomy was authored by Moses. They did not remotely suggest at all that Moses was not the author of that whole book, and their statements are testimony of the FACT! If denials are the best option now for you and your folks, babs787, does it not further establish the FACT that Muhammad is NOT in the Bible and all your efforts to systematically smuggle him into the Bible has become a failed project? Is that WHY you have turned to attacking the Bible after YOU quoted it several times to reference Muhammad in it? |
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SysUser (m)
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PLEASE NOTE I AM REPEATING THE POSTING OF THIS MESSAGE IN MOST THREADS IN OTHER TO MAKE SURE THAT THOSE PEOPLE MENTIONED GET THE MESSAGE I AM TRYING TO PASS ACROSS, I APOLOGIZE FOR ANY INCONVINIENCES IT MIGHT CAUSE OTHER THREAD USERS, Pilgrim.1, Davidylan, How are you, sorry you didn't I didn't post , statements and comments at all, for a while. They were due to the following reasons: 1. I didn't have anything to say 2. I realise it was useless trying to convince them (@bab787, @olabowale and co) about something , when Satan has already blinded them to the truth. They themselves have decided to look for loopholes (where there is none) within the bible and lies with which to continue living a lie, and choose not to believe3. I realised that their (@babs787, et al) would not come by arguing with them , instead it would come via the HolySpirit, ministering to them. Let us remember that is , He (God) is the one who saved us, , so He is the One who would save them, Our own job as true Christians is just to , "SOW THE SEED OF THE GOOD NEWS OF CHRIST". Whether or not " They choose to be infertile ground or grounds filled with thorns " is not really our perogative. 4. Finally I have noticed that " they are living for the now , while we are living for the now and then", so just like Jesus instructed the disciples there comes a time when we are supposed to dust our feet and leaveBy the way pilgrim.1 and Davidylan, please find attached, some video links that have helped me to understand certain lies , deceit and indoctrination of "Evolution", I hope it helps you to see the truth as it has helped me to see the truth. http://www.loudcry.org/main/video/Dr_Kent_Hovind_PhD/seminar_videos/7_questions_and_answers_part_2.avi http://www.loudcry.org/main/video/Dr_Kent_Hovind_PhD/seminar_videos/7_questions_and_answers_part_1.avi http://www.loudcry.org/main/video/Dr_Kent_Hovind_PhD/seminar_videos/7_questions_and_answers_part_4.avi http://www.loudcry.org/main/video/Dr_Kent_Hovind_PhD/seminar_videos/7_questions_and_answers_part_3.avi http://drdino.plaingospel.com/seminar2.wmv http://drdino.icsrepair.com/videos/lowbitrate/seminar4_low.wmv http://drdino.icsrepair.com/videos/lowbitrate/seminar3_low.wmv http://drdino.plaingospel.com/seminar5.wmv http://www.loudcry.org/main/video/Dr_Kent_Hovind_PhD/seminar_videos/6_the_hovind_theory_part_5.avi http://www.loudcry.org/main/video/Dr_Kent_Hovind_PhD/seminar_videos/7_questions_and_answers_part_5.avi http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v27/i4/Wang.asp http://www.drdino.com/drdinoLinks.php Finally false doctrine contributes to doubts in ones life and faith in God : below is a link to something on false doctrine which can and might have led many Christians astray: http://www.ovrlnd.com/FalseDoctrine/drakesbible.htmlTo you @babs787, @olabowale , and co, the wise and intelligent thing to do (instead of being dogmatic about issues) is to try and find out why those Christians that were formerly "either so called Moderate Muslims" and "Fanatical Muslims" decided to turn away from their ways and decide to become Christians. At least the truth is that some of them were probably as confrontation and unyielding in their statements as you "seem" to be. It would help you to at least prove for yourself by asking them "WHY" they left islam for Christ. Unless you take joy in trying to "windup everybody" just for the sake of it, it would help you to conduct truthful research and analysis into why former terrorist, moderate muslims, fanatical muslims, decided to risk everything (life, job and family) all for the purpose of becoming a TRUE CHRISTIAN. Pilgrim.1 and Davidylan stay blessed and in the hope of salvation through CHRIST
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pilgrim.1 (f)
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@SysUser, As promised, I went through some of the links - and found this one quite a help: I thought I'd seen it before; but thank God I checked it out, and was delightfully encouraged. Many blessings. |
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olabowale (m)
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SysUser: 1. I didn't have anything to say
2. I realise it was useless trying to convince them (@bab787, @olabowale and co) about something , when Satan has already blinded them to the truth. They themselves have decided to look for loopholes (where there is none) within the bible and lies with which to continue living a lie, and choose not to believe
3. I realised that their (@babs787, et al) would not come by arguing with them , instead it would come via the HolySpirit, ministering to them.
Let us remember that is , He (God) is the one who saved us, , so He is the One who would save them, Our own job as true Christians is just to , "SOW THE SEED OF THE GOOD NEWS OF CHRIST".
Whether or not " They choose to be infertile ground or grounds filled with thorns " is not really our perogative.
4. Finally I have noticed that "they are living for the now , while we are living for the now and then", so just like Jesus instructed the disciples there comes a time when we are supposed to dust our feet and leave : Tell me whats or who is 'Holy spirit?' Tell me who are the three prophets expected in the John 1 verse 21 of your Bible? Compare the answers of John son of Zachariah with the answer of Jesus son of Virgin Mary, when both were asked? Who is the 'prophet, the last personality of the tree expected in that verse and relevant verse?' And you said Satan has already blinded them, meaning Muslims, yet the Muslims curse him and seek protection of God the Almighty against him, every day! But you, you are wide open for his 'easy picking,' deluding you to the point that you do not even understanding that he already has his controlling influence in your life. You need to read Surah Mariam, towards the end of it, where Allah says that He has turn loose Satan on 'those who say God has a son.' You are one of them. I am not from that group, which is Christianity! I am shocked that you are trying to sow seed of the good news of Christ, into the hearts of the Muslims. If it is in Christian ways of Christ, please save your diseased seed! Go do it with the Jews, who are sharing the same ethnic bloodline with your human god. Then see what happens to your seed! We the Muslims know the real Jesus the ONLY SON OF TRUE VIRGIN MARY! We respect him, never diminishing his quality and never exaggerating his quality as well. Unlike you who is so carried away by the miracles perforemed by his Creator through him, that you elevated him to a position of deity! |
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SysUser (m)
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First and foremost, ."I am really weary of repeatedly trying to reason with you (bab787 and olabowale et al)", I am not interested in trying to win "a superficial victory" or a superficial argument about believes, instead I am interested in presenting facts, weblinks to the facts that can enable each and everyone to see why the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the only True God and why there is no other way to Him except through Christ. Secondly please let us stop this PERSONALITY ATTACKS AND INSULTS, WE ALL DON'T HAVE TO INSULT EACH OTHER BEFORE WE PASS ACROSS EVIDENCES OF WHAT WE BELIEVE AND WHY WE BELIEVE IT, LET THE FACTS DO THE TALKINGOkay here I go, as a comparison Jesus Christ HAS PROMISED, GIVEN AND MADE READY FOR YOU, WAY TO HEAVEN, A PLACE IN HEAVEN .
Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
yet neither "allah" nor "mohammed/mohammad" has promised you anything other than " Wine, Women and Sex" So ask youself Would you rather believe someone (mohammed or mohammad) WHO CANNOT AND WHO DID NOT GIVE YOU A CERTAINTY OF THE TRUE HEAVEN AND HOW TO GET THERE Please Note:That one was born into a form of belief is not an excuse to continue in it, because the father would be judged separately from the child , you (muslims and others) have the opportunity of not continuing in the path of unbelieve in Christ.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
That one is an adult does not mean one is wise, It is WISE for one to ask questions about what he was told to believe and also ask question about what he actually believes, lack of wisdom to do the right thing is not an excuse!
Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Pro 13:20 He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.
Also, that a lot of people believe or do the same thing does not mean what they believe or do is true, please note that a lot of people where doing what they were doing yet only Noah and his family and the selected animals were saved. So that a lot of people are doing the same thing or that powerful people and important people are doing the same thing does not mean you should not ask yourself the question of why you yourself are doing it and whether or not you should continue to do it.
Do you know the good thing about my God, He is more than able to do exceedingly than I could ever ask for, and He is capable of fighting is own battles, I do not need to fight any battles for Him or force people to believe in Him
Psa 24:7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
Psa 24:8 Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle. Faith is required , for the sake of explanation and reasoning let me tell you that there the there are physical (present day) proves of miracles, battles and fufillments of prophecies (Noah's Ark, Sodom and Gommorah, Isrealites Red Sea Crossing) of what the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has done as detailed by the bible. As such, IS IT NOT RISKY to just be dogmatic about WHAT YOU (muslims and others) CHOOSE TO WANT TO BELIEVE, instead of what you need to believe.They physical evidences are there for you to check (you can check either in secret or in the open depending on your choice),, SO PLEASE STOP TRYING TO GIVE FACE LIFE IDEAS AND FALSE BELIEVES THAT DON'T STAND UP TO MAN'S SCRUTINY, TALKLESS OF IT BEING ABLE TO STAND UP TO THE INFALLABITILTY OF GOD AND HIS WORD are all there for those who wish to sincerely scrutinize them. Notice that God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob despite being the Lord God Almighty, gave Adam (and all men/women) a free will (the freedom of choice) so that he can choose to do or not do what he wants. Doesn't it sound contradictory that " certain false gods, try to force man to do their will (i.e. they the false gods try to make man do their will irrespective of what man's choice is" Doesn't it sound weird and UNGODLY , that other gods (allah, , et al) makes it fundamental to kill, maim or destroy those that don't believe them. Finally contrary to popular culture and opinion , Religion is man trying to please and seek God. Being a Christian means God was the one that sought out man , in other to save him (Christianity) (means that we are beneficiaries of the love and mercies of God, ). Christians are not the ones seeking God to please Him in other to be saved, on the contrary God is the One who knew that nothing that man would ever do would ever save Him, therefore HE GAVE HIMSELF AS THE SACRIFICIAL LAMB FOR THE REDEMPTION OF THE SIN OF MAN. Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; To the soul that is not at peace , whatever superficial victory or thing that is done on this thread or other threads is irrelevant, if you have ears, hear that: Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Psa 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Psa 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
Psa 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
Psa 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
Everything (salvation of man) was finished on the cross, God did not send any other person to come and correct some fanthom mistakes " Joh 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Joh 19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. " There has been many false prophets (mohammad, mohammed, guru maharaji, mormons, , etc) and false gods (dagon,allah, buddah, esu,oya, osun, sango, ogun, baal, sun god , diana) and unfortunately, there will still be, simply because they are a fufillment of things to come:
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
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