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Stats: 1236265 members, 1645200 topics. Date: Saturday, 19 April 2014 at 09:06 AM
|Religion / Re: Jephthah's Daughter by Pastor AIO: 1:10pm On Apr 10|
This is total rubbish. Please watch the video. Those guy's are all walking about fully decked in their birthday suits. The rest is a further digression that Kay 17 has warned me to avoid.
Bottomline, is the murder of a human being acceptable as a sacrifice? If so, on what conditions? Is the condition is that human be sinless?
|Religion / Re: Jephthah's Daughter by Pastor AIO: 10:35am On Apr 10|
What about Amazonian tribes that walk about Unclad? Maybe they never sinned so they feel no shame.
|Religion / Re: Jephthah's Daughter by Pastor AIO: 9:13am On Apr 10|
Joshthefirst: what makes human sacrifice barbaric and murderous and repulsive to God pastor? Is it not [b]because it solves nothing and is a waste and just wrong due to the quality and nature of the human victim? Asking if God was repulsed and angered by the idea of human sacrifice or the quality of the human victim is splitting the issue and trying to pitch two aspects of the same issue against each other.
I'm not the one that is 'splitting the issue and trying to pitch two aspects of the same issue against each other.' Take your aggro to Olaadegbu. I was merely asking questions based on what he was saying. He said:
Lambs without spots or wrinkles where to symbolically represent our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God who came to take away the sins of the world. No human being was without sin. God had to provide Himself as a Lamb to take away the sins of the world.
|Religion / Re: Jephthah's Daughter by Pastor AIO: 10:11pm On Apr 09|
Joshthefirst: no actually. You're the one digressing. Mixing issues with the symbolic sacrifice of animals and the substitution sacrifice of Christ. The idea of sacrifice itself would have been useless if it wasn't for man's sin, as Mr. Ola has pointed out. Human sacrifice is a waste and murder because its useless and terminates HUMAN LIFE needlessly. Don't try to mix up issues and confuse everyone and yourself in a bid to prove your subjective moral stance.
Am I? Well excuse me.
Oh, so they are different things. I thought the lamb was supposed to symbolise Christ's sacrifice, hence the lamb of God etc. Shows how little I know. Please set us straight.
Fair enough, that was not my contention. We are talking about human sacrifice and the barbarity of it. Whether sacrifice is useless or not is not the issue here.
I couldn't agree with you more. You have to take up that issue with those that require it or claim that it is necessary.
Okay, I'll try.
|Religion / Re: Jephthah's Daughter by Pastor AIO: 6:57pm On Apr 09|
hmmm... I enjoyed that digression... now back to what we were saying ....
|Religion / Re: Jephthah's Daughter by Pastor AIO: 4:13pm On Apr 09|
So I asked whether it was the idea of human sacrifice in itself that was objectionable to Yahweh or whether it was the quality of the human victim that Yahweh was worried about. Now I understand that it is the quality of the human victim that Yahweh has issues with.
|Religion / Re: Jephthah's Daughter by Pastor AIO: 4:05pm On Apr 09|
.... except the human sacrificed is without sin.
|Religion / Re: Jephthah's Daughter by Pastor AIO: 3:08pm On Apr 09|
I think this thread aptly demonstrates that human morality is an evolving thing, and that it does not in any way rely on belief in God.
The fact that our morality has evolved away from that of bronze age israelites is what is causing all this wahala where we are trying to make excuses for the bible.
|Religion / Re: Jephthah's Daughter by Pastor AIO: 3:06pm On Apr 09|
I'll repeat my request. Please can you reconcile your claim that Jephthah's daughter was dedicated to God and thus had to remain celibate with your claim that there are no Nuns (women dedicated to God and celibate) in the bible.
Please can you read my post again, you seem to be missing my point. My point was that being dedicated to God has absolutely nothing to do with Virginity so If, as you claim, she was only dedicated to God there is absolutely no reason why she should be crying about her virginity. The only thing that could leave her a virgin for the rest of her days would be if she was to meet her death shortly thereafter. Samuel proves that being dedicated to God has nothing to do with being or remaining a virgin.
So from this we can understand that God would be happy with Human sacrifice as long as the human in question was without sin. However it is only the fact that humans are sinful that saves them from being acceptable sacrifices to Yahweh. (apart from the town that was burned as a sacrifice to Yahweh).
|Religion / Re: Jephthah's Daughter by Pastor AIO: 10:48am On Apr 09|
So many points on this sweet thread. First I want to draw your attention to this:
Since we know that Monks and Nuns are people that dedicate themselves to God and remain celibate I wonder how you reconcile the claim that there are no nuns and monks in the bible with the claim that Jephthah's daughter was dedicated to God in the tabernacle and she remained celibate.
Another point that came to mind was the fact that being dedicated to God to serve in the tabernacle has absolutely nothing to do with virginity. Samuel was dedicated to God but he knew woman well well. He even born pikin.
1And it came to pass, when Samuel was old, that he made his sons judges over Israel. 2Now the name of his firstborn was Joel; and the name of his second, Abiah: they were judges in Beersheba.
1 Samuel 8
the reason why her virginity was such a big deal was that she lived and was to die without having offspring. This is why her virginity was bewailed. If she had children the blow wouldn't be as bad (according to bronze age Israelite thinking).
How do we reconcile God's rejection of Human sacrifice with the sacrifice of Jesus?
Let's start with these 3 points/questions.
|Religion / Re: Newtons Law Of Changing Religion by Pastor AIO: 2:03pm On Apr 08|
M= rigidity which I agree is proportional to her level of indoctrination, but I would add that raised to the power of her VESTED INTEREST IN THE RELIGION.
It is nigh on impossible to convert a pentecostal pastor that makes half his income from Tithes.
|Religion / Re: 6 Months Of 'Atheism' And I Still Believe In God by Pastor AIO: 11:19am On Apr 06|
Uyi Iredia: In humans, consciousness has a cause ; in God consciousness has no (material) cause. I don't think artificial consciousness could be made but it's a possibility; if achieved your question could be answered; till then that's how nature works. If the thing is unconscious then there should be no conscious beings, that's how I see it. It'
Have you got evidence for the bold part of your statement above?
|Religion / Re: Are Roman Catholics Christians? by Pastor AIO: 3:49am On Apr 06|
1 Corinthians 11:2
I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you.
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Christianity is a religion of traditions that are passed down from generation to generation.
|Religion / Re: 6 Months Of 'Atheism' And I Still Believe In God by Pastor AIO: 3:34am On Apr 06|
Uyi Iredia: In humans, consciousness has a cause; in God consciousness has no (material) cause. I don't think artificial consciousness could be made but it's a possibility; if achieved your question could be answered; till then that's how nature works. If the thing is unconscious then there should be no conscious beings, that's how I see it. It'
What is the cause of consciousness in humans?
If artificial consciousness could be made how could you verify that it had been made.
I find it much easier to explain material reality starting with consciousness initially than to explain consciousness starting with unconsciousness material things.
|Religion / Re: Debunking Catholic Myths; What Catholics Believe! by Pastor AIO: 8:53pm On Apr 05|
Why don't you try and engage Olaadegbu on this thread http://www.nairaland.com/1673324/roman-catholics-christians/10
I think that would be more interesting than having 2 different threads.
|Religion / Re: Are Roman Catholics Christians? by Pastor AIO: 8:51pm On Apr 05|
Okay, I hear you (about this thread starting first). As for the ancient babylon part let us just agree to disagree.
|Religion / Re: Are Roman Catholics Christians? by Pastor AIO: 7:38pm On Apr 05|
Olaadegbu, instead of talking to yourself why don't you engage in a thread like this one. http://www.nairaland.com/1690855/debunking-catholic-myths-what-catholics/1#1690855.56
You can ask these questions to the guy there who seems keen to address questions about the catholic faith.
(ps. one small aside, I don't think Baal was a Babylonian deity. He was Canaanite. The Babylonians had Marduk.)
|Religion / Re: 6 Months Of 'Atheism' And I Still Believe In God by Pastor AIO: 6:40pm On Apr 05|
Why must Conciousness have a Cause? Why can't consciousness have always been? Why can't objects without a nervous system have consciousness?
At the end of the day (or perhaps at the beginning of the day) there has to be something from which everything else came. Why can that thing not be consciousness?
|Religion / Re: 6 Months Of 'Atheism' And I Still Believe In God by Pastor AIO: 6:17pm On Apr 05|
I'm late, I don't know if what I have to say is still relevant, but I'll go for it anyway.
Yeah, in my usage of the word Awareness it is synonymous with Consciousness. Consciousness for me is just a narrower form of awareness that is actually present in all awareness. i.e.. I'm consciousness always, but sometimes I'm aware of the trees and other times I'm not aware of the trees.
However the Scientist uses Awareness in a different sense:
tbaba1234:And let this be any example to all who like to use words without defining what it means for them. The Scientist clearly states what he means by Awareness.
you are aware of it. You can say, It’s a cup and there’s some liquid in it. If I give it to you, you’ll move your arm and you’ll take it--you’ll respond in a meaningful manner. That’s what I call awareness.
Once we know what he means by awareness we can continue to discuss the issues with him. What he calls Awareness is simply what I call responsiveness. The blades of grass on the lawn will bend towards the east when the wind blows towards the east. This does not mean that the grass is conscious of the wind. It simply means that the grass is responsive to the stimuli of the wind. I'm happy to call that Awareness in this context as long as we know what it is we are talking about and don't start to conflate it with consciousness.
Responsiveness does not equal consciousness. If I ask you a question and you respond, that does not make you a conscious being. A well programmed IT can also respond to questions. All this is reminding me of a thread that I tried to start but got waylaid into a nonsense ringaringa roses with some person called JFK.
|Religion / Re: Debunking Catholic Myths; What Catholics Believe! by Pastor AIO: 12:57pm On Apr 05|
Ubenedictus: it is catholic belief that the christian faith has alway existed in principle right since the creation of man.
it is catholic belief that the christian faith has alway existed in principle right since the creation of man.
These days I always shudder when I hear a nija xtian use that word principle. Now, I'm not accusing you of Houdini tactics in this case but in other instances in my experience that word is always brought in as part of an escape technique out of a difficult spot. The most common one is when they talk about the 'Principles of Tithing'.
But the quote above takes the biscuit for the most senseless use of the word principle.
However I will not put your use of the word in that category. Let me try first to understand what you mean.
First Let's look at a dictionary definition of Principle:
Often when the phrase 'in principle' is used it is used in contrast with 'in practice'. e.g In principle I agree with your right to speak your mind, but[b] in practice[/b] I find your opinions most disagreeable.
The idea of something is contrasted with the actual experience of the thing.
I could be wrong but I believe that this is the sense in which you use the term 'In Principle'. I shall respond on this presumption, if I'm wrong you can correct me later.
So your first sentence is saying that the IDEA of christianity already existed but it wasn't practicable.
Take note, i said in principle not neccesarily in reality. Christianity is new in the sense that a flower blosom is new, the flower is there it just hasn't blosomed. The blosom is termed new, but the flower has been there. Christainity was born when christ died and sent the spirit but in principle it has been there.
What throws me a bit is how you make a dichotomy between Principle and Reality. But again I'm assuming by reality you mean practise. So you meant - In principle not in Practice. It follows then that the actual practice of christianity only became possible after Christ died and resurrected according to your post.
Now, to use your analogy of flower and blossom, would you say that the flower was in effect even before it blossomed, or not? i.e., would you say that Religion, True Religion, was in effect in the era before Jesus died? If not then I must ask how did...
God has alway accepted to himself all who came to him with a sincere heart doing what is right. From abel..., to noah..., to jacob..., to moses, through judaism down to christ.?
Furthermore... What Gospel was it that Jesus and his disciples were preaching in the days before he died? What Baptism were they baptising? Was it symbolising something other than Christ dying and resurrecting?
If the christianity flower only blossomed after Jesus died and rose then by what power, by what effect was Lazarus raised from the dead? By what power was Jairus' or the centurion's daughter raised from the dead?
Finally, I would like to know what you think of this event in genesis 14.18. Do you consider it connected in anyway to the sacrament of eucharist.
And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
Thanks in anticipation.
|Religion / Re: Debunking Catholic Myths; What Catholics Believe! by Pastor AIO: 12:29am On Apr 05|
I just tried to do a quick search on line for the book, but it was not available anywhere. Only as Google books which does not allow you to copy and paste. And what I found is not even the actual book but a commentary that Augustine himself made on the book. I'll type out some of it and then post the link for you to look further.
3. Again, in the same chapter, I said, " That is the Christian religion in our times, which to know and follow is most sure and certain salvation." I was speaking of the name, here and not of the thing so named. For what is now called the christian religion existed of old and was never absent from the beginning of the human race until Christ came in the flesh. Then true religion which already existed began to be called Christian. After the resurrection and ascension of Christ into heaven, the apostles began to preach him and many believed, and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch, as it is written. When I said, "This is the Christian religion in our times, " I did not mean that it had not existed in former times, but that it received that name later.
Okay, good night peeps. We'll resume tomorrow.
|Religion / Re: Debunking Catholic Myths; What Catholics Believe! by Pastor AIO: 12:04am On Apr 05|
Thank you for your response Ube, I'll have to come back to you tomorrow cos I'm very tired now. There is so much to talk about on this subject.
ps. Thank you very much for bringing stuff about the eternal covenant into this.
|Religion / Re: Debunking Catholic Myths; What Catholics Believe! by Pastor AIO: 9:55pm On Apr 04|
It is indeed something that I wish to clarify about the Catholic Church. I am sure that you would say that St. Augustine was a Catholic. Abi? And St. Augustine a foremost authority on the Catholic Church has made a comment which I quoted above which says that Christian Religion has existed from the beginning of the human race to today.
Yet you've come here to say that christian religion started after Jesus and that before that was Judaism. However Judaism too had a beginning so I brought the question of what existed before Moses. Now you have every prerogative to answer me or not, I can't force you, but I do not agree with your statement. Rather I agree with St. Augustine.
You also said this:
CHRISTIANITY IS THE ONE TRUE RELIGION, AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS THE ONE TRUE CHRISTIAN CHURCH
Which is why I'm interested in religion prior to catholic church. From your statement there was no true religion before Christ. So I'm curious about how and why religion prior to Catholicism is UNTRUE, and by what you understand by Augustine's statement. Jacob the grandson of Abraham practiced religion. Was the religion he practiced true religion or not? Adam himself practiced religion. Was the religion he practised true or not? Enoch and Noah practiced religion. Was the religion they practised true or not? That's what I'm asking.
|Religion / Re: Debunking Catholic Myths; What Catholics Believe! by Pastor AIO: 11:01am On Apr 04|
No need, the baby will be discovered and raised by Wolves and then when it grows up it will come looking for you. Just make sure you've got your defence ready at that point.
|Religion / Re: Debunking Catholic Myths; What Catholics Believe! by Pastor AIO: 10:23am On Apr 04|
Infanticide is a crime.
|Religion / Re: Debunking Catholic Myths; What Catholics Believe! by Pastor AIO: 8:29am On Apr 04|
I agree with the above that it has been used to such an effect. However to you think that you could be throwing out the baby with the bath water when you reject religion wholesale?
Please MOB, you didn't answer my question. What was the religion of the 'people of God' before Moses?
|Religion / Re: Apostle Paul Introduced Paganism Into Christianity. by Pastor AIO: 8:39pm On Apr 03|
What is wrong with Paganism?
|Religion / Re: Debunking Catholic Myths; What Catholics Believe! by Pastor AIO: 6:22pm On Apr 03|
What was the religion of the 'people of God' before Moses?
|Religion / Re: Debunking Catholic Myths; What Catholics Believe! by Pastor AIO: 4:35pm On Apr 03|
That which is called the Christian religion existed among the ancients, and never did not exist, from the planting of the human race until Christ came in the flesh, at which time the true religion, which already existed, came to be called Christianity. -Augustine, ca 410 AD, Sermo 10, De Sanctis
|Religion / Re: Is This Foreknowledge Of Ifa On Human Evolution Theory? by Pastor AIO: 5:43pm On Apr 02|
Monkeys in Yoruba have their own civilisation. They come from a city called Isokun. We are said to be related and we have a deal with them whereby they can incarnate as human beings. These humanbeings are what we call Twins. They are monkeys that have incarnated into a human family.
As Yoruba and Igbo people have the most twins in the world it seems that we have some close connection with Monkeys of all the humans.
|Religion / Re: The Plain Concept Of Eledumare And Orisas With The Reality Behind Them by Pastor AIO: 5:25pm On Apr 02|
This matter of the supremeness of Oosa and their authority over their various jurisdictions can be quite interesting when looked at from a biblical angle. In the Bible the Greek word Exousias is the word for Authority, Jurisdiction, and Rulership. We understand that there are a number of these Exousias, or authorities in the world. Paul talks about them a lot in the NT.
Let's check out some of what he has to say (although they can sometimes seem contradictory):
1[b]Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. [/b]For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
Verse 1 says Let every soul be subject unto the exousiais above them.
This passage is often understood to be referring only to political forces and governments etc but we know that political authority was not the only authority Paul was referring to when using the word exousiais. In his Cosmology he believed that the whole universe was ruled by Exousiais, each having it's own jurisdiction. And these jurisdictions were ordained by God. We're not just talking about political authorities.
10so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.
The Archeis (rulers) and Exousiais (Authorities) are clearly said here to be in heavenly places. And Paul says the purpose of his efforts was so that the the mystery of God should be made know via the church unto these Authorities.
Again in Titus 3 he exhorts christians to be subject to authorities.
1Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
But it is not as straight forward as it seems cos there is also another apparently contrary attitude towards the Exousias.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
I see a delegation of authorities that rule the world each in it's own jurisdiction yet they are all subjected to One authority only which is called Christ Jesus.
|Religion / Re: Most Interesting Book Of The Bible by Pastor AIO: 3:04pm On Apr 02|
hopelink1: other thing like?
Like Trinity. Like Assumption of Mary. Like the Persian conquests. Like the entirety of human history.
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