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Religion / Re: Were The Early Christians Roman Catholics? by PastorAIO: 12:33pm On Apr 24
shadeyinka:


I haven't read these three books. Do you have soft copies PR are they available on thebweb?

I couldn't say if the are available online or not. None of that is the point. You said only books that were written by apostles, OR in circulation in their lifetime, ....

These books ( to the extent that we can know) fulfil your criteria as much as the gospels.

Why would you not accept these books as scripture? May I suggest it is because they are not a part of the tradition that have come down to you via the Catholic Church.

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Religion / Re: Were The Early Christians Roman Catholics? by PastorAIO: 11:57am On Apr 24
DoctorAlien:


The Bible is actually and objectively coherent all over, and that is what we Bible Christians believe.

What is obvious is that some incorrect interpretations which seem to make some portions of the Bible contradict other portions must give way for correct interpretations.

Okay o, anyhow you like it.
Religion / Re: Were The Early Christians Roman Catholics? by PastorAIO: 11:28am On Apr 24
DoctorAlien:
I don't understand: did Eccl. 9:10 stop being true in the NT?
The Bible says there is no knowledge of any sort in the grave.

I think a big part of the problem here, and generally in threads like this is that many people are unaware that the bible contains a variety of theologies, and a variety of cosmologies.

You run into the problems you do when you think that the bible is coherent all over. It is neither coherence nor cogent.
Religion / Re: Were The Early Christians Roman Catholics? by PastorAIO: 2:09pm On Apr 22
shadeyinka:


I believe my number 2 carried an OR.

Of course, the gospels were not written by any of the Apostles but they still fit the criteria

Unlike a book like "the gospel according to St Barnabas"

What about books Like The Shepherd of Hermas?
Clement1?
Didache?
Religion / Re: Were The Early Christians Roman Catholics? by PastorAIO: 1:58pm On Apr 22
shadeyinka:


Greek word is ekklésia which means the assembly.

In proper context, the church as we know it started in the upper room in the book of Acts.


shadeyinka:


In the real sense, Jesus didn't start Christianity: He was the nucleus/the focus of what is called Christianity.

Apart from teaching the Believers a model prayer, Jesus didn't focus on religion: He focused on men having a relationship with the "

So please when did it start?
A) in the upper room on Pentecost
B) in Antioch a few years later
C) on 397ad by Constantine
D) in the life time of jesus when the bible says he called out ( ekklesia) his disciples.
E) all of the above and more
F) none of the above and less

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Religion / Re: Were The Early Christians Roman Catholics? by PastorAIO: 1:48pm On Apr 22
shadeyinka:

There were other factors used to determine if an ancient "church writing" should be canonized.
Like:
1. Can they be traced to the Apostles in authorship?
2. Or were the writings in circulation during the times of the Apostles?
3. Was it written in the lifetime of the generation that saw or moved with Jesus?

Of course there were some heretic teachings too of which the church must be careful not to mix with the holy writ. I believe they did a fairly good job.

If it is a matter of tracing it to the apostles then the 4 gospels fail. Just the trial of Jesus alone is enough. How do we know what happened in the trials when the bible itself told us that all jesus' followers fled when he hot arrested. So how do we know all the things that happened during his trial if the only acceptable sources were not even there.

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Religion / Re: Were The Early Christians Roman Catholics? by PastorAIO: 1:42pm On Apr 22
italo:

So who started Christianity, and when did it start?
Oh! Only a relationship with the Father and 'Our Father' prayer.

So who built the Church? Who started the idea of baptism, communion? Whose idea was it that one

Please, what institution was Jesus referring to in Matthew 18:17
Religion / Re: Were The Early Christians Roman Catholics? by PastorAIO: 12:19pm On Apr 22
Mcowubaba:

undecided undecided
Oga go to my profile
My moniker is over 4 years old, and I'm very active on Nairaland.

If you have no other logical and sensible argument on this topic, I think you should not quote me again.

Thanks


EDITED... I just read some of Shadeyinka's comments on this topic, we have similar thoughts..
No wonder you got us mixed up cheesy
You're FORGIVEN.

Please read my post again. It has been amended.
Religion / Re: Were The Early Christians Roman Catholics? by PastorAIO: 12:18pm On Apr 22
I see no correlation of the priestly garb of the roman pagan priests and the priestly garb of the Catholic Church,

There were very many books and letters in circulation amongst early Christians. Canonisation occurred to stop the spread if heresies. I agree. The criteria for selecting books was in tws of their theology/doctrine. Those text whose doctrines were not acceptable to the church were rejected. I think the matter of fabrications mattered less than the matter of doctrine.


shadeyinka:


Canonization of the scripture is NOT the same as authoring the scriptures. You will agree with me that the books of the new testament were in circulation among the churches and a time came (much later) to prevent heresies from creeping in the books had to be canonised.

If canonisation didn't happen, maybe the New testament would have contained so much fabrications.

Have you heard of the book called "the Gospel according to Barnabas"?

About Fashion, check traditional Jewish dresses. The information is available..google is your friend

Interestingly, l grew up with an "Art Historian": too many books with pictures to read
Religion / Re: Were The Early Christians Roman Catholics? by PastorAIO: 11:59am On Apr 22
shadeyinka:


Forgive my assumption. You actually sound like one

No wahala! Sebi they are human beings too.
Religion / Re: Were The Early Christians Roman Catholics? by PastorAIO: 11:57am On Apr 22
Are you Shadeyinka?

Oops! Na you even write the post wey I respond to. Okay, now using your own same reasoning consider this:

Catholic just means universal therefore Catholic Church spread out over the earth like 'Kingdom of heaven' that Jesus described.
Christian means Christ follower. Bcatholic means universal. These two words are not mutually exclusive.


Mcowubaba:

The Church had leaders not a Bishop in the time of the Apostles, after Jesus ascended into heaven.

Jesus Christ was never a Catholic and can't be a Catholic, bring any Bible scripture that backs up ur claim..

Jesus Christ was sent by God to save and redeem the world from condemnation, I don't know when HE became a Catholic member undecided

Jesus Christ is the Savior nd not a Catholic member..
Catholic denomination is MAN MADE, not DIVINE, Jesus Christ is DIVINE, know the difference..
Don't personalise Jesus Christ to the Catholic Church, that would be blasphemy.

Jesus Christ is Lord over all, and came as a MORTAL (not as a Catholic) to save ALL

I don't count myself as amongst the few Christians, in fact I'm more LOGICAL than RELIGIOUS.
You can carry the title of *Christian* that's your business, I'm not interested

All I know is that both Catholics and many other denominations are serving themselves not GOD
.


Oga, I never opined that Jesus Christ didn't start Christianity.
What is even Christianity - the name Christianity/Christian was given to "Followers of Jesus Christ" by unbelievers, it was like a nick name..

When they (unbelievers) saw people practicing Jesus Christ's teaching, principles, ways etc they said see this people doing like Christ, that's the origin of the name Christianity. (Go and read Acts 11:25-27) observe closely what happened in Antioch.


Christian simply means Christ like, follower of Christ..
Go and read the Etymology of Christianity.
So it would be insane for anyone to argue that Christianity wasn't started by Jesus Christ.

Just like APC followers/supporters are called Zombie, while PDP supporters are called wailers.

Catholics worship Mary and pray to her. Mary is mortal..
She can't answer your prayers or request
.
Religion / Re: Were The Early Christians Roman Catholics? by PastorAIO: 9:40am On Apr 22
Following your reasoning... Jesus didn't start Christianity. After all we know when it started. Christianity started in Antioch where the term was first coined.

Mcowubaba:
Early Christians weren't Catholics.
The were just Christians, no denomination, no silly doctrine, no pope.
What happened in the early church was Gathering of believers to worship and praise God.

Jesus was not/never a Catholic..
In fact what Catholics do is not what Jesus Christ wants.
Catholics are on their own, same with dozens of other denomination.
Every one is practicing Christianity to suit their own desires, man made doctrine and idealogy

Very few true Christians

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Religion / Re: Were The Early Christians Roman Catholics? by PastorAIO: 9:26am On Apr 22
shadeyinka:


My point is really not about canonisation of the scriptures but against seeing Catholicism as the "Original" church. Like I said before, the issue is like:



Catholic church started when a fusion of the State and the church commenced.

Have you ever wondered why the Robes worn by the Catholic Priests didn't have any Jewish fashion style? It was influenced mainly by the Roman fashion.. No relic of how Pope Peter used to dress...

Catholic started when the church of Christ had a large influx of government money


But canonisation of scriptures is pertinent especially as you've conferred all authority in Christian matters away from the church onto to bible.

I'm also curious as to how you became familiar with Jewish fashion and roman fashions of antiquity. How do you know that priestly garb is not similar to Jewish priestly garb?
Religion / Re: Were The Early Christians Roman Catholics? by PastorAIO: 9:17am On Apr 22
shadeyinka:


I assume you are Catholic, therefore if your information is contrary spill it out

You assume wrong.
Religion / Re: Were The Early Christians Roman Catholics? by PastorAIO: 10:40pm On Apr 21
shadeyinka:


Those information are not new to me but he took the pains to present them: for that I praise him.

Of course such information are available if you take the pains to find them.

To prevent a case of bias in judgement, catholics can present a counter argument and the case of one party screaming
.... "Two legs good, Four legs bad!" Will be put to rest

Cool. I presume that when you got the information previously you did due diligence to confirm.
Religion / Re: Is The Hebrew Monotheistic Belief A Product Of Religious Syncretism? by PastorAIO: 10:38pm On Apr 21
Isra-EL

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Religion / Re: Were The Early Christians Roman Catholics? by PastorAIO: 10:20pm On Apr 21
shadeyinka:


Thanks for the information.
Both Catholics and Non Catholics can make enlightened judgements.


Having thanked him, are you now prepared to go and verify the information or do you plan to just swallow it hook link and sinker?

1 Like

Religion / Re: Were The Early Christians Roman Catholics? by PastorAIO: 6:16pm On Apr 21
Ubenedictus:
Pastoraio, welcome back to the religion forum, i saw your post on another thread. Its good to have u back.

Thank you. I've been creeping back slowly for a few weeks now. I pray that all is good with you.
Religion / Re: Were The Early Christians Roman Catholics? by PastorAIO: 3:58pm On Apr 21
The op betrays an ignorance of the history of Christianity.

The Catholic Church never claimed that all early christians were Catholics. In fact history tells us that there were many many different types of Christianity in the first century. A lot of these the Catholic Church claims were heresies.

However the version of Christianity that won out over the others was the orthodox Christianity of the Roman Catholic Church. No protestant can make the claim of antiquity that the Catholic Church has unless they claim to hark back to heresy.

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Religion / Re: EXPLANATION :BIBLE STORIES THAT DON'T ADD UP by PastorAIO: 2:17pm On Apr 21
GoodMuyis:



The Bible Writer cant be stupid ask you assume, its wasn't wrote in a rush to have something to pen down.
In a Regular Essay Writing, You introduce the idea of the next Paragraph in the last sentence of the current paragraph, That may be the aim writer.

Just as someone had already said, that Part in question does not follow chronological order, that should be enough for the wise-one to work on

CC: JhyMedex

You should read my posts before you respond to me. There is nowhere that I assumed that the bible writers were 'stupid'. That's a false accusation. If anything it is the likes of you and Felix that assume that they've made a mistake and feel a need to cover that fact up.

I stated clearly my position. That yes, there are contradictions. And yes, the contradictions are intentional. So I don't think it was a rush to pen something down that caused the contradiction. It was intentional.

PastorAIO:


My brother, the question should not be whether or not there are contradictions in the bible. But rather the question should be why the writers of the bible blatantly and obviously took contradictory stories and laid them side by side.


If you read the bible is not just you will see some seemingly inadvertent contradictions as if it was sloppy work, but instead they are laid side by side in such a manner that it is obvious that the writer intends for you to compare and contrast them.

The first thing that we can say is that the writers of the bible were [b]NOT [/b]trying to write history. That was not their goal or agenda.

You cannot take the tales of the bible as historical facts.

What is obvious is that the writers were not writing history but were getting at something else altogether different, a lot of which is lost in translation when you read the bible in English.

It is the false premise that the bible is an account of history that is the cause of all the twisting and writhing.

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Religion / Re: EXPLANATION :BIBLE STORIES THAT DON'T ADD UP by PastorAIO: 2:04pm On Apr 21
GoodMuyis:


Flexiomor is right


You should have asked why did Saul Forget who David was, What was Saul Sickness.

The Bible Writer cant be stupid ask you assume, its wasn't wrote in a rush to have something to pen down.
In a Regular Essay Writing, You introduce the idea of the next Paragraph in the last sentence of the current paragraph, That may be the aim writer.

Just as someone had already said, that Part in question does not follow chronological order, that should be enough for the wise-one to work on

CC: JhyMedex

Why did Saul 'forget' who David was? What was Saul's Sickness?
Religion / Re: Traditional woshipper! What Is The Ifa Philosophy? by PastorAIO: 2:54pm On Apr 20
Ubenedictus:
does this mean that ori (head) not olodumare "created" the orishas?

Olodumare is the ultimate arbiter of everything so I guess whatever Ori does, it is Olodumare at work.


In Christianity one can ask if Christ created the world or if Yahweh created the world.
Religion / Re: How Orunmila Spied On Almighty God by PastorAIO: 2:38pm On Apr 20
orisa37:
This Thread is written in English Language. Please oblige your Readers with the English meaning of Orunmila and the Yoruba meaning of Almighty God.

I believe the OP is taken from a book by Osamaro Ibie which has a tendency to conflate a lot of Ifa teachings with Christian terminology.

But hey, all religions probably start out that way. Afterall we can see before our eyes people reading the bible and conflating it with the cultural perspectives of their tribes.

Just recently Muttley Laff told as that Saul was a Yoruba man and when he asked whose father David was he was asking it in a Yoruba sense.

Not long ago I met someone in a thread that refused to believe that Jewishness is passed down through the mother because in her village it is unheard of that ancestry should be considered through the mother but it is always through the father.

This is why I say that bible is probably a useless book for most Nigerians.

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Religion / Re: How Orunmila Spied On Almighty God by PastorAIO: 2:33pm On Apr 20
MuttleyLaff:
No and quit flattering yourself
It is thoroughly obvious the contrary is the case

Most of the ill-informed remarks you make dont go unnoticed
and without putting the record straight about them, they secretly piss others off

Don't worry, I don't blame you. I would troll me if I were you. Maybe you can get some of the scraps that fall of the master's table.
Religion / Re: Unconsummated Fortune - Idi Okonron by PastorAIO: 12:45pm On Apr 20
No, I'm not mocking you. You have to first do something mockable before I mock you.

I know that Itan from Ogunda meji, however it does not break down the prescription for the ebo.
What does the ebo require? Also it would be nice if you could quote out the full verse of these odu instead of just the stories from Osamaro Ibie's book.



Babalawos:


Aboru Aboye

"Na co-operation make rice full pot."

Did you ask this question to mock me? Because at your IFA level, you ought to be answering IFA questions but am suprise with your question and comments on this thread.

My late reply came as me having some powerful work to do. I am through with the work now and it was a huge success and I am happy to be back online now.

I answered your amubo question in my new post here: http://www.nairaland.com/3752310/ogunda-meji-eji-oko-why-lower

Thank you for reading, leave a comment

Babalawos
Religion / Re: How Orunmila Spied On Almighty God by PastorAIO: 12:34pm On Apr 20
Are you trolling me now?

MuttleyLaff:
Moses said to God:
''Please, let me see Your glory''
(i.e.''I pray You, show me Your glory!'')

God replied Moses:
''I will make all my goodness pass before you, and I will call out my name, Yahweh, before you.
For I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.
But you cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"


God further said:
''Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock;
and it will come about, while My glory is passing by,
that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by.
Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen''


Underlined in your mention is fact and a stark nayked truth
- sorry about the pun

myth and invention
Religion / Re: EXPLANATION :BIBLE STORIES THAT DON'T ADD UP by PastorAIO: 5:19pm On Apr 19
MuttleyLaff:
King Saul had sent messengers and word, only, to Jesse alright
but he had no diddly squat face-face nor have any knowledge of who Jesse really is

King Saul in effect, had twice (i.e. messengers and word) sent to Jesse but never had sent for Jesse

King Saul didnt have to send for Jesse, because whatever King Saul wants or demands, King Saul haves or gets and Jesse has to be honky-donkey with it
Remember God's warning about subservience etcetera concerning the Israelite wanting to have an earthly king (i.e. 1 Samuel 8:11-18)

Were you expecting otherwise

So? So then, what?

Of course he knows David BY SIGHT and he knew him to be Jesse's son,
but does he know Jesse?
Does he personally know Jesse? Has he ever met Jesse?
Is King Saul acquainted with Jesse BY SIGHT?


And after asking the question in Chapter 17 did he then come to know Jesse by sight? Since it is the 'by sight' that is biting you. What information did he gain in Chapter17 that he didn't already have in Chapter 16.

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Religion / Re: EXPLANATION :BIBLE STORIES THAT DON'T ADD UP by PastorAIO: 5:16pm On Apr 19
MuttleyLaff:
You've worn it out from overuse.
Take a risk, be creative, spin a different line

I now see where you're going so wrong. The difference between you and me is that I know where to be creative and where not to be. This is not the creative arts. If it was painting or music, or dancing I very much doubt that you can even be half as creative as me. However this is not the arts, this is a simple matter of biblical exegesis and literary criticism. I know that your whole approach to religion is to make it up as you go along and that is why creativity is so important to you, but I'm sorry to say that that is not the correct approach to religious matters.



You're not open to reason, as you're too self-absorbed and that's exactly why reason is oblivious to you

You have been given not yet exhausted Reasonable reason(s) but your shortcoming is that infamous blinkered attitude of yours

So your reasonable reason is that as a Yoruba man Saul was asking: ''Tani baba omode yi, gangan nile yi, paapaa?''



MuttleyLaff:

Technically speaking and in actual fact, King Saul doesnt know whose son David really is

''Whose son is the youth'' is equivalent in seriousness to like when speaking in the local parlance with
''Tani baba omode yi, gangan nile yi, paapaa?''



As a matter of fact, to a certain degree, I try as much as I can getting familiar with Hebrew's too
and know you are smart enough to know the difference between Hebrew and Jewish

With your ego running amok, you couldnt resist not resorting to an ''olodo'' abuse and hectoring, erh. Continue


It's not ego. it's a statement of fact. If you made a mistake and you say 'sorry I made a mistake', I can accept that. But you are conflating Hebrew with Jewish, that suggests you don't know the first thing of what you are talking about.

1 Like

Religion / Re: Unconsummated Fortune - Idi Okonron by PastorAIO: 10:42am On Apr 19
Raintaker:
okay, but do you think babalawos will tell you the Eno for that?
I don't think so, thatz his own business too you know.
I hope you understand

Shouldn't you let the man come and speak for himself? Or are you him with another monicker?
Religion / Re: Unconsummated Fortune - Idi Okonron by PastorAIO: 8:50pm On Apr 18
Raintaker:
I mean Is Amubo not for those looking for husbands or wives?

Amubo is the spirit that causes 'nearly does not score a goal'

1 Like

Religion / Re: Unconsummated Fortune - Idi Okonron by PastorAIO: 1:54pm On Apr 18
Nostradamus:
o.p. pls answer these questions

Thanks for the buttressing. I would really like to know the answer.
Religion / Re: EXPLANATION :BIBLE STORIES THAT DON'T ADD UP by PastorAIO: 1:53pm On Apr 18
MuttleyLaff:
Spin a different line and stop sounding like a broken record and nagging wife

I don't need to spin a different line. I know this line is oppressing you and it will continue to oppress you until you show some integrity and own up that the 2 chapters are incongruous.



The bible said Saul asked whose son David is, it didnt say the reason why Saul asked
You can be given nth to the power reasons why Saul asked but you'll never be satisfied so go take a chill pill and sit don somewhere jaare

We don't need 'nth to the power reasons', only one Reasonable reason will do. Thanks.



That's more the reason one needs to be familiar with Jewish customs, culture, idioms etcetera
in order to get a good grip on what the narratives in the bible are about

Are you familiar with Hebrew (not jewish, olodo) customs, culture, idioms etc?

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