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Religion / Re: In What Way Has This Religious Section Benefited You? by PastorAIO: 8:16pm On Oct 30

Jokes apart,
Nairaland christians do more to push people on the fence away from religion.
When an intelligent person looks at the arguments made to defend god and christianity, he or she becomes self aware, self aware of the contradictions that they carry all their lives.
They realize that their exist no intelligent argument to justify many of their long held beliefs.

No atheist argument push me to jettison religion and idea of god.
It was the arguments, attitudes and character of religious people that pointed to me that something was really not right with goddist worldview.

When I hear my neighbor screaming in prayer every night and morning, I feel really sorry for her and her fearful doubts.
When I hear people going for special prayer, I begin to ask what is so special about special prayer that makes it better than ordinary prayer?
When I go to church and witness people pray like 5 times in a session, I begin to wonder if god is deaf and perhaps did not hear the first two prayers.
Why the repetition if you are so sure that he is there?

In the end, I concluded that in reality, no one actually believes for sure that god is out there , but many are only hoping that he is.

My guy, on this nairaland Christians have done more to make atheists than any atheist. That is so true. It is not so much their arguments but the rancid, aggressive, bullying way that they go about posting and making threats. To defeat them in argument all one has to do is encourage them to speak.

I suspect that they can now see the futility of their rabid threats and that is why they have now run away.


Religion / Re: 'we're Sorry For Giving You Algebra' by PastorAIO: 11:48am On Oct 29
A fallacious straw-man is all this op is spewing.....algebra is merely a mathematical statement that concurs with doesn't matter if Atheists, Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Greeks etc derived it.....the fact that it applies to reality and was proposed by a theist....says nothing about the theistic claims being true....
Because Newton derived a mathematical statement that described how planets orbit the Sun....doesn't mean alchemy that he believed in is true :-/

Quit attacking straw men. No body proposed that Algebra supports the veracity of any religion.

The people apologizing for giving the world algebra are doing so because they are being attacked in society as uncivilised and barbaric. Some jewish guys went on social media to claim that Jews had so many Nobel prizes and Arabs had none, for example. That's the kind of activity that they are reacting against that makes them propose these satirical apologies.
Religion / Re: Is Freedom Of Religion A Biblical Concept? by PastorAIO: 4:32pm On Oct 28

There is no conflict between biblical principles and the civic principle of religious freedom. In fact, it is precisely because the United States was founded on biblical principles that religious freedom exists. Only governments rooted in Judeo-Christian values allow such freedom. Islamic, Hindu, and Buddhist governments do not allow religious freedom; therefore, countries such as Pakistan, India, and Tibet are, as a whole, intolerant of other religions. Atheistic governments, such as the former Soviet Union, have also proved to be antagonistic toward free religious expression.

US attitude to religion is not based on any biblical principles. It was based more on Humanistic principles. You'll find more Spinoza (tractacus -theological politics) in it than bible.

The islamic government of the Ottoman empire allowed more religious freedom than the European governments based on Judeo-christian values.

India is one of the most religiously diverse places in the entire world. There are more religions in India than in probably the rest of the world put together. And they keep inventing new ones.

Tibet cannot be intolerant of other religions it is occupied by a communist country (China).

We cannot know if a religion is intolerant of other religions until we see them in a position of political power. If NT christians were meek it wouldn't count cos they were politically weak. We need to know what happens when they come into political power. Do you know of any Politically christian country that was tolerant of other religions? If yes please share it with us.
Religion / Re: 'we're Sorry For Giving You Algebra' by PastorAIO: 4:04pm On Oct 28

How is it possible for a universal truth to be stolen?
The Muslims stole the algebra from the Hindus so let them shut up.

And they also took many things from the Greeks and they developed them further and this tradition of developing knowledge was passed on to Europe. Essentially what you, UyiIredia, are doing can be extended to accusing Europeans of 'stealing' science from the Arabs. Despite the fact that we know that they have developed science and applied it in so many ways that the Arabs didn't.

But can anyone notice a thread here linking civilisation and a certain tradition?
Religion / Re: 'we're Sorry For Giving You Algebra' by PastorAIO: 4:00pm On Oct 28
But they do it for the 'regular' reasons of greed,lust,anger et al but these ones (ISIL,boko haram)in question commits these crimes all in the name of their religion

This is untrue. They too do it for 'regular' reasons, whether those are justified or not is another matter varying from case to case, however they simply add God to their acts to lend it an air of authority. This is a common gimmick and many do this, Christians are not excluded.

In fact the greatest use of that political tool we call 'God' is to lend an air of authority to many of the things we do but we don't want to take personal responsibility for.
Religion / Re: Spirituality After(/outside) Religion by PastorAIO: 1:36pm On Oct 28

That is the stage you've reached. I am beyond that!

This one just has to have the last word sha!
Religion / Re: Practicing The Presence Of God by PastorAIO: 1:34pm On Oct 28

i hope you are aware that practicing the presence of God is based on dogmas, most important among them is that there is God, a personal God to be specific, he is everywhere and particularly in the innermost being of men.

No one can practice the presence of God without those dogmas. I really don't get why it seems you think dogmas are the death bed of the practice of religion.

Dogma cannot be avoided. It provides a framework within which you practise. Dogmas become a deathbed when you stop at the dogma and all you do is engage with dogma, and argue over dogma, and juggle dogmas etc. But the Dogma is NOT the practice of Religion.

Let me try to make an analogy with Medicine. Based on Theory of Humours (a dogma received from Galen) a doctor prescribes a course of medicine for a patient. It so happens that the medicine is effective and the patient recovers.

Later on, many centuries pass, and doctors do not accept the Theory of Humours anymore but have instead a Theory of Pathogens. They also discover that the medicine prescribed previously but the old skool doctors had active ingredients that effective attacked the pathogens in the patient and that was why the previous course of medicine worked. They might have been following different Theories but the actually course of Medicine prescribed remains the same.

What use is the notion that there is a God, a personal God, if all you do is stop at the notion and do not practice a discipline to experience the Presence of God?

What about the person who undertakes the practice and experiences satisfactory results, BUT somehow does not feel that God, as he was dogmatically taught in sunday school, has anything to do with the experience?
Religion / Re: Spirituality After(/outside) Religion by PastorAIO: 2:20am On Oct 28

Sorry Sir, I am not out for crusading. Since you're satisfied at where you're remain there.

grin All these Anti-religion anti-dogma folks that are really just trying to replace one set of dogma with another set of dogma. At least you haven't got to the stage where you're threatening those that don't agree with you ... yet.

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Religion / Re: Spirituality After(/outside) Religion by PastorAIO: 8:56pm On Oct 27

looking at it from "your" level of consciousness!

Dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.[1] It serves as part of the primary basis of an ideology or belief system, and it cannot be changed or discarded without affecting the very system's paradigm, or the ideology itself.

The question therefore is... is your statement that 'you are not a body that has a spirit' authoritative and incontrovertibly true? Is your statement that 'you are a soul' authoritative and incontrovertibly true?

If there is a 'level of consciousness' where that is the case then I'm curious about it. Not that I want to be in that 'level', but I am curious about it and about it's mechanism. But you're right, from where I stand (I wouldn't call it a 'level of consciousness', just a perspective) it sounds like nothing but Dogma.

you'll awaken to the realization that you are not a body that has a spirit.; rather, you are Soul that is encased in a physical body.
Religion / Re: Practicing The Presence Of God by PastorAIO: 7:23pm On Oct 27
Hallelujah! At last, a christian that has come to discuss a practice of his religion. Not just blowing theological hot air and juggling dogmas that have been contorted out of the bible.


Religion / Re: Who Wrote The New Testament? by PastorAIO: 7:20pm On Oct 27
You are a wise man, full of anger and drowning at your own sea of wisdom. Keep burning.

it would be a lot easier if you just attempted an answer to his question rather than rain abuses on him. It would definitely make this thread a lot more pleasant to read.
Religion / Re: Spirituality After(/outside) Religion by PastorAIO: 7:18pm On Oct 27

As you unfold further, you'll awaken to the realization that you are not a body that has a spirit.; rather, you are Soul that is encased in a physical body.

At any rate, one has to start from somewhere.

More Dogma.

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Religion / Re: Spirituality After(/outside) Religion by PastorAIO: 6:35pm On Oct 24

All this is jst gabbage abeg
Religious development is restricted to watever dogmas u adhere with these dogmas more intensely

Totally different from spiritual development by which it's you getting to understand the universe better and connecting with ones inner self. as humans we are not spiritual beings we are physical beings, we only have a spiritual self limited by the body
We use human experience and knowledge to develop our spirit self

Animals have spirits too, they have the same need to develop spiritually as humans which can only happen through the physical which makes us either man or animal.
or u think there such a thing as dog spirit, tiger spirit, snake spirit and all dem bullshiit u hear from Tb jahshiit

I don't think that you've thought through any of what you are saying, not to talk of experienced it, but since you are happy to dismiss what I posted as ga(b)bage without even addressing one single point then It's best to just leave the matter there.
Religion / Re: What Is A God? by PastorAIO: 12:54pm On Oct 24

Yes, and a necessary attachment to God is a strong faith, which ought to compensate for the epistemological trauma. It is almost impossible to talk about God without involving our very psychological constitution. Most of the believers, Deepsight inclusive; are adamant convicts in the existence of certainty. They can not live a life with uncertainties, a life without a destiny.

The psychological question: What is it about uncertainty that makes it so unpalatable? Why do human beings need to fabricate so much fantasies in order to eradicate the feeling of ignorance? What is the difference between the mind of the guy that can just say "I don't know and I'm comfortable with that" and the guy that say "I've got it, I know all the answers and I'll coerce everybody into agreeing with me or I'll never find rest"?
Religion / Re: What Is A God? by PastorAIO: 8:02pm On Oct 23

That leaves God as nothing but a figment of our limited imaginations.

To make it a product of any sort from our imaginations is to give too much credit to his postulation. Such a 'God' is UNimaginable even. He is merely assigning a term to the unknown and unknowable. However we don't even know how much unimaginable and unknowable stuff is out there. Is it all God? Or is God only a part of what is unimaginable and unknowable? What else can be found beyond our reality and beyond our minds?

A big epistemological problem indeed, Kay17.
Religion / Re: Spirituality After(/outside) Religion by PastorAIO: 6:59pm On Oct 23

Wat is religious development?
Practising more of the dogmas of a religion Or better understanding of a religion??

The continued practise of certain disciplines in order to bring about a state of being connected to the world and to oneself.

The idea of practising a dogma is oxymoronic. A dogma is accepted intellectually or rejected. A dogma isn't practised.

Religious development is not better understanding of a religion. Maybe that would be sociology or anthropology.


And you can become more spiritual as humans aren't spiritual beings we are physical beings trying to connect with our spiritual self (which isn't human), this which you probably can't fully achieve in one life time

our humanity is a challenge, to overcome several hurdles to building up a better spiritual self

Excuse me, what were you saying about Dogma?

We are not spiritual beings but we have a spiritual self?? (which isn't human? explain this to me, please.)

It take it that you believe your physical self (your body) is the only real you.

Also of interest.... Why do you think you cannot connect with your spiritual self which is not you in one lifetime?

Where I think I agree with you but we are using different approaches is where you seem to be saying that physical and spiritual need to be connected. The difference is that you are adamant that the spiritual part is not the self, but only the physical part. At least you agree that there are parts and that those parts are fractured and need to be reconnected.

The question then is ... what are the methods by which we can effect this reconnection of the parts? That Methodology is what I call Religious practice. You can practice it within a cult or not.
Of course you can grow spiritually just as you can grow physically, but to suggest that humans are not spiritual beings, and to do so dogmatically without back up, contradicts everything that I hold to be true and right.
Religion / Re: QUESTION: Why Isn't Jesus Saving Our World by PastorAIO: 3:52pm On Oct 21
Pardon my asking, PastorAIO but, are you really a pastor?
Like Pastor-Pastor?
Religion / Re: QUESTION: Why Isn't Jesus Saving Our World by PastorAIO: 5:20pm On Oct 20

You need to relax and read PastorAio's post again, because he was laying the two possible meanings Jesus' man saving Gospel is about.

Thank you Kay. Though I doubt he'll read it with a calm mind. But if he does, hopefully, I hope he also notes the very last sentence where I said that Jesus in the gospels taught neither of the two possible meanings.
Religion / Re: QUESTION: Why Isn't Jesus Saving Our World by PastorAIO: 2:17pm On Oct 20

But seriously pastor If God truly loved the world that he gave his only begotten son,has that solved any problem as we see around us?

But seriously Dapo, if you truly love this discussion that you've giving your energy and time to post, has that solved the problem of not actually reading and grasping what I've said.
Religion / Re: What Is A God? by PastorAIO: 12:00pm On Oct 20
Is God a god?
Religion / Re: Spirituality After(/outside) Religion by PastorAIO: 11:30am On Oct 20
Thanks for the mention. Now I'm here, my difficulty with contributing lies in understanding what the terms Spirituality and Religion mean to the OP. I consider myself to be religious. Very religious.

But then I understand religion as a practice undertaken to reconnect oneself to Spirit, and to one's environment. So for me Spiritual development is very much a part of religion.

By spirituality I just believe that we are already spiritual beings and so someone cannot 'become more spiritual' any more than someone can become more human.

I suspect that what the OP is resisting against is the Practice of Religion within a CULT. There are pros and cons to practicing religion within a cult. This cult as a religious organisation has plenty of deleterious effects on religious development.
Religion / Re: QUESTION: Why Isn't Jesus Saving Our World by PastorAIO: 11:01am On Oct 20

Dude, you point is you mean, God the creator of a perfect being didn't see it fit to remove the sinful nature of his creation that he decided "prior to" or after creation to sacrifice His only begotten son for the sins of the creation He failed to remove the sinful nature of?...that is VERY logical, don't you think?

The more you try to dance your way around the truth, the more you drown in your own confusion...believe it or not, it is an instrument of oppression and a means to an economic end...Oyedepo, TBJ en co my reference, private jet? shocked lipsrsealed

You seem confused. The basis of my points are in the OP at its question. Nothing I said there was baseless. Nothing that you've written actually applies to my post. I think you might be addressing something else entirely. Maybe a gripe you have had with christianity long before you even read my post. Anyway, please, I'd appreciate it if next time you actually read my post and made sure you understood it before you responded to it. Thanks in advance.
Religion / Re: If The Old Testament Is Of A Perfect God, Why The New Testament?? by PastorAIO: 2:16pm On Oct 18
too bad.

I'll take a look.

"too bad"? I hope you were answered satisfactorily from the post I referred you too. In that thread there are many questions asked of me, and as I had plenty more time to spend on Nairaland in those days I made an as-comprehensive-as-I-could answer. Since then I've been asked many questions that I've already answered quite comprehensively on other threads. It is a lot easier for me to refer the querent to those previous thread than to spell out my whole position over and over again. If there are questions left then I'll be happy to answer further.

Paix et amour.
Religion / Re: QUESTION: Why Isn't Jesus Saving Our World by PastorAIO: 2:09pm On Oct 18

Tell me Dear, what exactly have you been told.

Pardon my asking, there're different versions actually.


I would like to know the different version


May I present two different 'versions' that are often conflated?

1) Jesus came to save us from our Sinful Nature

2) Jesus came to save us from the consequences of our Sinful acts

The idea is that we are not Sinners because we have Sinned, but rather we Sin because we are sinners.

If it is our Sinful nature that we to be saved from and we become a new kind of creature then Jesus' salvation project has failed in the case of the greater majority of Christians. They all still have their extremely sinful nature and the subsequent sinful acts abound.

If it is the consequences of our Sins that he has come to save us from, and those consequences culminate in our final destination in the afterlife, then we cannot judge until such a time whether he has failed or not. If there are consequences of sin before the final day of reckoning and we have been saved from those then Christians should be living better lives than non christians and a christian thief that gets caught will not suffer any consequences, neither will the christian womanizer that catches venereal disease will be cured of his disease.
If the particular consequence that we are saved from is not physical but spiritual christians will continue to suffer the physical consequences of their sins but whether the 'other' intangible consequences are escaped we can not know because we do not experience them .

There are other consequences of these beliefs. If one believes that his sins are forgiven despite his continuing to sin this will only encourage most people to sin further. This teaching encourages moral corruption. This, i believe, is why Nigerians are so morally corrupt, what was already a bad situation was made exponentially worse by these false 'christian' teachings. Note: Jesus did not teach any of these himself.


Religion / Re: QUESTION: Why Isn't Jesus Saving Our World by PastorAIO: 1:53pm On Oct 18
I can only answer you as a Christian. And our answer is that He has. If "to save" means[b] "to secure from danger of one sort or another"[/b] then we have been saved already.

Given that, I am curious what it is you were told through religion that is NOT the way this world will be saved.

hello Ihedinobi, it's been a while ...

please what exactly is the danger(s) that you have been secured from?
Religion / Belief In Free Will Not Threatened By Neuroscience by PastorAIO: 3:26pm On Oct 15

A key finding from neuroscience research over the last few decades is that non-conscious preparatory brain activity appears to precede the subjective feeling of making a decision. Some neuroscientists, like Sam Harris, have argued that this shows our sense of free will is an illusion, and that lay people would realize this too if they were given a vivid demonstration of the implications of the science (see below). Books have even started to appear with titles like My Brain Made Me Do It: The Rise of Neuroscience and the Threat to Moral Responsibility by Eliezer J. Sternberg.

However, in a new paper, Eddy Nahmias, Jason Shepard and Shane Reuter counter such claims.
Religion / Re: If The Old Testament Is Of A Perfect God, Why The New Testament?? by PastorAIO: 2:44pm On Oct 03
pesty100: so skepticism seems to be the rational choice?

Not necessarily the rational choice. But the more honest choice, certainly.

1 Like

Religion / Re: If The Old Testament Is Of A Perfect God, Why The New Testament?? by PastorAIO: 2:43pm On Oct 03

i remember you brought this passage up in our discussion some time ago.

Now am a bit interested... How exactly do you interprete that passage especially in the light that the said death only occured in time about 2000yrs ago?

Please can I refer you to this post for further clarification:
Religion / Re: If The Old Testament Is Of A Perfect God, Why The New Testament?? by PastorAIO: 12:50pm On Oct 03
Then there is the notion that God created all the possibilities and every possible universe exists in parallel to themselves. This raises ontological questions of when we can say something exists or not. Can possibilities be said to exist? In what sense? How do we compare their existence to the existence of Actualities.
Religion / Re: If The Old Testament Is Of A Perfect God, Why The New Testament?? by PastorAIO: 12:44pm On Oct 03
hifaif post=/post/26822140:

The thing with you Christians is that you never want to humble yourselves by saying you don't really understand somethings.
You prefer to head into an argument even though you know you can never make any sense of it.

You said God planned everything right from the beginning and yet said he does not restrict you from following any path. If he has planned that you join BH or ISIS, would the path you decide to take 'freely' not have to eventually conform with God's plans?

If your actions can't exist outside God's plans, then you are not exercise free will. You are just working according to the dictates of God which means that as somebody once said 'you are nothing but a pencil in the hand of God'

Herein lies the heart of the issue. There is a need, a desperate need, to assume a position of absolute knowledge. Instead of honestly trying to attain the position or at least admitting that it is not possible, we resort instead to sleight of hands and dodgy arguments to support an untenable position.

I've even heard arguments trying to discredit science by saying that scientists are always coming up with new theories and changing their position. Whereas religionists always maintain their position. I don't know how that, the fact that a position is amenable to changing when facts present themselves, makes something less true. If anything it should make it's position stronger than the position that does not consider new facts.

It is simply a matter of intellectual honesty and integrity. God is not something that we can know or grasp. We can try, but if you think that you've pinned God down then you'll be setting yourself up for a shock. Repeated shocks.

There are two parts to this Free Will issue. The Free part, and the Will part.

what do we mean by Free? Are the choices God makes truly free, or are they bound to by his character. ie. are there things that God will typically do and things that he wouldn't do?

Anybody that knows me would tell you that if you were to put chocolate down on one plate, and marzipan on another and tell me to choose one, if they truly know me they will know that I am more likely to choose the marzipan. Knowledge leads to prognosis. If you know me you'll be able to predict my behaviour.

Does God have Character? Likes, dislikes, behavioural patterns, features? If so then his/her choices would be bound to his/her character. that is not totally free. There are things therefore that God just wouldn't/couldn't do.

Then there is the question of who created God's features and characteristics. God himself? ie Self creating. Then what informed his decisions to create himself the way he did? You see how these questions are taking us beyond the levels that our intellect can reach. The honest answer to these questions is 'I don't know'. I don't know why it is so hard for my christian brethren to say these three little words.

Then there is the Will part? If God's Will is absolute then can there by any other Wills in the universe? An absolute Will cannot be thwarted in anyway. Whatever happens must be in accord with this absolute will. If there are other wills, i.e. human will, then that will must necessarily be impotent since the will of God is absolute. Nothing can happen other than what God wills.

However if Human will is not impotent, then God's will cannot be absolute.

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Religion / Re: If The Old Testament Is Of A Perfect God, Why The New Testament?? by PastorAIO: 12:12pm On Oct 03

that is a powerful question. One that carrys with it a lot of sematics.

I believe God has choices, yes! He could chose whether to create or not to create. I see another question coming.

this thread is getting interesting now.

1 Like

Religion / Re: "What Was Early Christianity Like?" by PastorAIO: 5:05pm On Sep 30

You ve never shown any prove that he didnt make a retraction. You just made a statement that you want me to believe by faith. Sorry. case closed till you tender your evidence.

Please, JMAN05, does a contradictory pair of lists mean there is no apostolic succession.

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