DeepSight:


I know several people whose lips are stranded in that peculiar position in real life though.

Dis guy. you don come again o. 'stranded'?!! What?, The lips went on excursion and couldn't afford the bus fare back to their base.

Kobojunkie:
What does it matter if it is?

In the broad scale of things it doesn't really matter, but on a personal microcosm scale I think it would be quite unfortunate. Anyway, it's just a picture that comes into my mind whenever I read your posts.

Steep:


Ezekiel 20:5 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when I chose Israel, and lifted up mine hand unto the seed of the house of Jacob, and made myself known unto them in the land of Egypt, when I lifted up mine hand unto them, saying, I am the LORD your God;

20:7 Then said I unto them, Cast ye away every man the abominations of his eyes, and defile not yourselves with the idols of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

20:8 But they rebelled against me, and would not hearken unto me: they did not every man cast away the abominations of their eyes, neither did they forsake the idols of Egypt: then I said, I will pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.

20:11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.

20:13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

20:24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.

20:25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

Those laws that were nor good were not yahweh's laws for the rejected yahweh's laws therefor he gave them laws that were not good.
In the bible especially the old testament anything that happens is always regarded from God whether good or evil, that is because God is the final authority.

The authority for anything to happen is from yahweh.
The reason yahweh allows Israel to fall into such evil laws is because they rejected the good laws that belong to yahweh.

I did not ask about the reasons or the motivation that caused yhwh to give such horrendous laws to his supposed people.

A thief is a thief is a thief. Of course different thieves have different reasons for stealing. Some are hungry. Some are greedy. Some just have psychological problem aka kleptomania. etc etc etc

At the end of the day, regardless of the motivation, tiff na tiff.

Yhwh gave the Israelites commands to sacrifice their first born sons. This is a fact, an undisputed fact. If you later want to go into the reasons why and try to rationalise the evil and dastardly act that is a different matter. But at least I'm glad that you have come to admit that such a command was given by Yhwh. Well done.

Kobojunkie:

When I see this emoji at the end of all your posts after a while I'm starting to wonder if that is that actual shape of your mouth in real life. lol.

I pray that isn't so...

Kobojunkie:
Again, the question ....So, Satan works for God, right?

This is simply meant to know your understanding as far as the stories of Satan found in the book.

Why are you interested in my understanding? This is not a competition of 'who sabi pass'. If you have some pearls of wisdom that you think I could benefit from regarding the stories of satan found in the book please be generous, share them.

Broveens42:

But what of the other clause that completes the sentence? "Livestock"
Livestock can't belong to God in the context of dedication to service, they are not image and likeness of god according to your good book.

So the clauses being put in a sentence can only mean burnt offering.
It's a complete sentence and not two sentences.

Clause1. Are there evidences where god in good book instructed a man to sacrifice his son ? Yes

Clause 2: are there evidences where god instructed livestock to worship him in the temple or render some kind of services? No

Clause 1 plus clause 2 only means burnt offering.

Even if you concede that the sacrifices were not holocausts, you're right when you consider the modus operandi. Yhwh instructed Abram to kill his first born son. Abram did not even flinch. He didn't say 'haba, why na?'. Obviously it was a request that was normative. And indeed everywhere we look in Canaanite culture such an act was very normal.

Kobojunkie:
Wasn't the question mark visible ?

question mark or no question mark that post is incongruent.

I simply post 2 bible passages vis a vis and suggested it was worth investigating. Especially considering that these thread is about contradictions.,

What got triggered in you that made you ask that question?

Kobojunkie:
So, Satan works for God, right?

are you asking me, or are you telling me?

Steep:

So where does belong to me translate to use them for burnt offering?

oh, I see. It doesn't say that first fruits are to be burnt. My bad.

Burnt offering is not the only kind of sacrifice,

Steep:
All firstborns belong to God, of course.
Where does it day all that openeth the womb is for burnt offering?
The offered the first crops and animals because they meant meant the specification for sacrifice.
Don't dodge that question? Answer it, where was it stated that all that openeth the womb is for burnt offering?

exodus 34

The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock.

While we are perusing the facts of human sacrifices to yhwh if you need a distraction how about reflecting on these 2 passages:


1chronicles 21:1
Samuel 24:1





1 Chronicles 21
1Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel. 2So David said to Joab and the commanders of the army, “Go, number Israel, from Beersheba to Dan, and bring me a report, that I may know their number.”

2 Samuel 24
1Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” 2So the king said to Joab, the commander of the army,a who was with him, “Go through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, and number the people, that I may know the number of the people.”

Broveens42:


You are really giving this guys a hard time

It is done with love, sir. I just wanna get this message out. I can't force him to accept but the more he interacts the more opportunity I have to explicate.

Steep:
Israel is God's firstborn son God killed every firstborn of the egyptians because of the way they treated his own firstborn, and because Israel is God's firstborn they are to dedicate their firstborn son to serve God as a symbol that Israel God's firstborn is to serve God.

Oh? And not because all first borns belong to yhwh and anything that openeth the womb must be burnt as an offering to him?

So then, pray tell, why did the hebrews offer the first crops and the first animals of their flock?

Steep:
Why don't you quote from Ezekiel chapter 20 vv1? Why are you afraid? Be bold like a man.
Like I said Jesus sacrifice is a judicial one. The judgment was against us because of our sins but Jesus took the punishment for our sins, and also Jesus sacrifice prove the depth of God's love for us.

why don't you do the honours and quote whatever you think is relevant for us to peruse? After all you have been quoting passages at me since I've started interacting with you.

I don't know the difference you are making between judicial and ritual nor why you consider them mutually exclusive. Perhaps you can explain further.
But the bottom line is that Jesus was a sacrifice, not just a sacrifice but a sacrifice modelled on the ritual slaughter of lambs and cattle. After all why do you call him a sacrificial lamb. But he wasn't a lamb though, was he? He was a human sacrifice.

This how you know redactions and revisions are taking place. They can not be consistent but they keep contradicting each other. Now you say that the first borns are redeemed from doing priestly work Abi?
But just a while a go from the other side of your mouth you quoted the folllowing:
Exodus
13:15 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that the LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast: therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem.

So which is it? Is it because yhwh prefers levites as priests that they are redeemed or is it because yhwh killed all the first borns in Egypt?

It sounds like fabricated excuses. I've learnt in life (this could even be a definition of truth) that the 'Truth is what people speak when they think they are talking about something else entirely'.

This passage remains unchallenged:


EZEKIEL 20:
25Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and rules by which they could not have life, 26and I defiled them through their very gifts in their offering up all their firstborn, that I might devastate them. I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.


These passages do not tally. Either you redeem the first born from being a priest. Or you redeem him from being killed like the Egyptians. Or you don't redeem him at all and you sacrifice him. These 3 things cannot all be true. Evidence suggests that the Ezekiel passage is what actually happened and the exodus passages were redacted later.

Steep:
Concerning redeeming the firstborn of Israel.
The following verses shows the reason how and what lead to it.
Numbers 3:40 And the LORD said unto Moses, Number all the firstborn of the males of the children of Israel from a month old and upward, and take the number of their names.

3:45 Take the Levites instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel, and the cattle of the Levites instead of their cattle; and the Levites shall be mine: I am the LORD.

3:46 And for those that are to be redeemed of the two hundred and threescore and thirteen of the firstborn of the children of Israel, which are more than the Levites;


Originally all the firstborn of Israel were meant to serve at the temple, but God choose the levite instead and for this reason every Israelitie firstborn must be redeemed from this service failure to do so would logically mean they will have to serve till they redeemed themselves.

budaatum:


I detect an assumption here. That Jesus who was crucified by an ignorant mob, was a sacrifice YHWH demanded. Could you show where that demand was made please?

And if you have the time, is it not truer that everytime Yhwh supposedly "directly asks for and admits to asking for Humans to be sacrificed", it is the people themselves justifying their own untoward crime of murder and genocide by claiming their God said?

Buddha, I'm not sure if you're an atheist or follow another religion but I actually do believe in the existence of yhwh. For many years encouched my spirituality in christian terms and within a christian framework and I've had the chance to get a close look at the whole affair.

That yhwh demanded Jesus as a sacrifice was a claim made by the first christian apostles, Paul especially. His letters are replete with it. Perhaps you don't think that the apostles can speak for yhwh. I cannot argue against that.

Of course many people hide behind religion to commit all sorts of vile and atrocious acts. An atheist may say that yhwh was created in the image of the people worshipping him. However I think quite the contrary. I do think the vile acts of these people was inspired by yhwh, an actual autonomous being.

Steep:
reading words according to context is not making things up. Ritual killing of Jesus?
Jesus death was a judicial sacrifice not a ritual enlighten yourself.
till now you have not provided a single shredd of evidence of yahweh commanding human sacrifice

I'm happy to keep repeating the evidence as long as you keep pretending not to see it. yhwh himself admits that he gave commandment to sacrifice their firstborn.

EZEKIEL 20:
25Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and rules by which they could not have life, 26and I defiled them through their very gifts in their offering up all their firstborn, that I might devastate them. I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.



I thought you were a christian. possibly not. Okay let me explain the christian doctrine to you. Jesus is a sacrifice that cleanses humanity of sins and makes humanity acceptable to yhwh.

Ephesians 5
2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.


In fact the ritual sacrifices of previous times are supposed to be an inferior version of the ultimate sacrifice which is Jesus.

Ultimately it is a human sacrifice without which yhwh cannot or will not forgive his followers.

Steep:


Words are interpreted according to context, way-yiz-bah primarily mean slaughter to sacrifice, but any slaughter done on an altar can also be way-yiz-bah, since sacrifices are usually done on altar.

The word was used in 2 kings 22 vv 20 because the slaughter was done on an altar which ordinary is a place where sacrifices are made but in this context Josiah wasn't making a sacrifice but defiling the altar.

Way yiz bah means ritual sacrifice. Full stop.

If you know of any source where that word is used to mean anything other than sacrifice please present it to us. And stop making things up as you go along.

It was done on an altar, the more reason to realise that it was a ritual killing.

And it is also worth noting that these altars were dedicated to yhwh. Just like the temple was dedicated to yhwh. There were many high places in Israel where yhwh was sacrificed to before the temple was later built. After the temple was built sacrifices were still made to yhwh in the high places but the Jerusalem priesthood wanted to monopolised the whole game. That was when the slaughter and sacrificing of priests to yhwh on the high places started.

Josiah reign was one of the major periods when the bible was redacted and tampered with in order to favour the Jerusalem priesthood.


But all these ones are just details. The biggest and more glaring case of human sacrifice remains the very basis of christianity. The ritual killing of Jesus. The problem is that when you are born in and raised in a faith like Christianity such a hideous notion is very easily normalised.

It's all okay. It is very important that my people are aware of what they are playing with. I'm grateful for the opportunity this thread provides to make an exposition of these things.

elated177:


Enyi a, go and rest. I owe you nothing.

Steep:


Exodus 13:14 And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What is this? that thou shalt say unto him, By strength of hand the LORD brought us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage:

13:15 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that the LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast: therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem.

This was a ceremonial practice in Israel to teach their descended how the Lord God killed all the firstborn of Israel but saved Israel.
Israel is God's firstborn. To redeem is to save or to deliver.
What happens when an Israelite is not able to redeem his son, then his son will continue to be in the service of the Lord

You don't think that it is a mighty coincidence that the sacrifice of first born sons was common in Canaan and the Israelites also had a ritual for redeeming the first born son?

Steep:

2 Kings 23:10 And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.

23:19 And all the houses also of the high places that were in the cities of Samaria, which the kings of Israel had made to provoke the Lord to anger, Josiah took away, and did to them according to all the acts that he had done in Bethel.

23:20 And he slew all the priests of the high places that were there upon the altars, and burned men's bones upon them, and returned to Jerusalem.

These priest were all involved in human and the king killed them upon their own altar.
sacrifice vv10, secondly the high places are not places were yahweh is worshiped, the high places were places that sacrifice to pagan gods were offered.

So the fact that someone else is making human sacrifice makes it okay for you to make them a human sacrifice to your own deity?

Actually, talking of context, you need to know what was going on in Israel at the time of Josiah. There was a power struggle. Previously Yhwh was worshipped in a number of ritual 'High Places'. When the Temple was built there became a power struggle between the Priesthood in Jerusalem and the priesthoods out in the rest of the country. Josiah sought to centralise the worship of yhwh. That is why he ended up killing all the other priests and sacrificing them on the altars. Josiah was a yhwh only adherent so you know that those human sacrifices were made to yhwh.

1Samuel 9
13As soon as you enter the city you will find him, before he goes up to the high place [/b]to eat. For the people will not eat till he comes, since he must [b]bless the sacrifice; afterward those who are invited will eat. Now go up, for you will meet him immediately.” 14So they went up to the city. As they were entering the city, they saw Samuel coming out toward them on his way up to the high place.

Samuel the prophet of yhwh would bless the sacrifices in the High Places. These were sacrifices made to yhwh. Made in High Places.

1Kings 3
4And the king went to Gibeon to sacrifice there, for that was the great high place. Solomon used to offer a thousand burnt offerings on that altar. 5At Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon in a dream by night, and God said, “Ask what I shall give you.”

Solomon went to sacrifice at the high place in Gibeon and yhwh met him there. So you see yhwh was worshipped in high place very very well and much.

kingxsamz:


Didn't you see his answer to this?
He said, the fact that the bible says "God did something" does not mean he actually did it. That it means he only allowed it.
It seems his own English might be from another planet.

Apparently there is a context in which it is possible to flip the meaning of that passage, I would just like to see the context and how he uses it to interpret the passage differently.

Steep:


@ bolded the word sacrifice was added by you.

The word sacrifice was not added by me but rather was removed by you and by those ye ye bible versions that you picked. This is a further example of how the bible is distorted when redaction and translations are made.

The word in contention is WAY - YIZ- BAH. This word in Hebrew means ritual sacrifice. There is no other context in which it is used in the Hebrew language other than as religious ritual sacrifice.

If you don't believe me, look it up in a concordance:

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/vaiyizbach_2076.htm

If you can show me one other passage where way yiz bah did not mean a ritual sacrifice then I will send you 20 pounds.

Steep:

Why are you avoiding from vs 1 to19? quote them first

You quote it and tell us how it changes the explicit 'I gave them statutes...'
yhwh starts by saying how angry and upset he is with the Israelites how they disobeyed him and then he got so angry that he gave then wicked statutes to kill their children.

Steep:

Do provide the evidence where yahweh commanded the children of Israel to offer human sacrifice.

I'm happy to keep on repeating the evidence for now, since your eyes don't seem to be working...


EZEKIEL 20:
25Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and rules by which they could not have life, 26and I defiled them through their very gifts in their offering up all their firstborn, that I might devastate them. I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.

Steep:

These were your words, you implied God is not qualified.

Your argument has being thrashed and refuted by this points
1. If you assume the God of the bible
Then
2 He created all life and owns them
Then He can take any life he wishes
3. He determines morality
The God of the bible abhors human sacrifice
4. He is what he says he is.

I'm building up to demonstrate that
1 ywhw is not the creator as told in the bible
2He did not create life neither does he own them.
3 He does not determine morality. Otherwise how come so many people find him and his actions morally repugnant
4. He is a liar. He is not what he says he is and he loves mendacity. He is even boastful about how mendacious he is.

Steep:

typical strawman
Cutting out a Verse or two, interpreting out of context and then attack it.

Newsflash, those were not yahweh's laws, when the bible says God does something it means God allowed it to happen.
God allowed Israel to practice pagan practices because they rejected his own law.

You skipped from vs 1 to 19 why don't you quote the full verse if it doesn't expose your fraud

The only fraud exposed is your claim that Yahweh didn't ask for human sacrifice. What does yhwh mean when he says "I gave them statutes..."
It doesn't mean, 'I allowed them...' It means I commanded them to.. , I gave them commands to.....

A statute is more than just allowing something to happen. It is a law that something must happen.

You talk about context, please put 'I gave them statutes' into any context you desire and interpret it to mean anything other than a direct command from ywhw. I'd be interested to see the exercise.

While you do that I will go on to further buttress my point that human sacrifice was an integral part of the worship of ywhw, which also provides perfect context for the christian belief that Jesus was the ultimate human sacrifice that would finally appease him.

The bible is full of human sacrifices and the only reason you don't see them is because your sight has been hoodwinked.

Try this from 2King 23

19And Josiah removed all the shrines also of the high places that were in the cities of Samaria, which kings of Israel had made, provoking the LORD to anger. He did to them according to all that he had done at Bethel. 20And he sacrificed all the priests of the high places who were there, on the altars, and burned human bones on them. Then he returned to Jerusalem.


Josiah the beloved King of Ywhw who 'reinstituted' the Law is reported to be making human sacrifices (way yiz bah) to yahweh.

Many many more examples. When ywhw commands that all first fruits must be offered to him as burnt offering what does mean when he says that the human first borns could be redeemed? redeemed from what? What should happen to them if they are not redeemed?

And your problem is playywith dark forces and entities that you have no knowledge of.

elated177:


Your problem is the condemnation of homosexuality. Case closed.

elated177:


You are joking, right? It is clear you have a problem with the message. Are you a homosexual? I wasn't me who made homosexuality evil. The Creator has condemned homosexuality and termed it evil. His Scriptures have condemned homosexuality. Even nature has condemned homosexuality.

With the Spirit of the Most High, YHVH Almighty, in me, I will never call good evil and evil good.

No, I'm not joking.

No, I'm not a homosexual.

Where did nature condemn homosexuality?

Please test every spirit. That's even in the bible too. Don't just jump into the embrace of any entity you don't know.

elated177:


I think that settles it. Your problem with the message is now obvious.

but I don't have a problem with you message. I'm saying that you should be cautious if you don't want to worship Satan because he comes masquerading as an angel of light. what you're calling good may be evil. be careful

elated177:



Is homosexuality an abomination or not?

Are you asking me because you value my opinion?

Is an abomination subjective or not? Can I find something abominable that you don't ?

Anyway shaaa... my personal subjective opinion is that Homosexuality is NOT an abomination.

elated177:



You are not making any sense, Ayo.

I'll try one more time, if you don't understand then no wahala, leave it.

Bible conflates yhwh and satan. Talks of them as if they are the same being.

You talk of conscious and unconscious worship of Satan.

I want to raise the consideration that you may be unconsciously worshipping satan yourself. In which case you run a risk of becoming a homosexual.

I hope that clarifies

Steep:
can you show me where in the bible God required human sacrifice to please Yahweh?

what do you mean by Micah many things changed

EZEKIEL 20:
25Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and rules by which they could not have life, 26and I defiled them through their very gifts in their offering up all their firstborn, that I might devastate them. I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.


Yhwh confesses to giving commands that were no good, commands to sacrifice their firstborns.