@truthislight don't reply yet, I need to modify that post and my battery is low. Hold on please. Thanks.

My friend, my interest is and will always be on substance.

If you say that that quote On red is not the point you are making, and that you dont stand by it, which to my understanding added substance to your argument an a stand that majority hold onto, then, am afraid, am through with you, for I am not kin on an argument that is not verifiable directly from the bible.

That to me will be an excersis in futility.

It's been a pleasure talking to you.

Peace.

truthislight:
My friend, my interest is and will always be on substance.

If you say that that quote On red is not the point you are making, and that you dont stand by it, which to my understanding added substance to your argument an a stand that majority hold onto, then, am afraid, am through with you, for I am not kin on an argument that is not verifiable directly from the bible.

That to me will be an excersis in futility.

It's been a pleasure talking to you.

Peace.

Why are you wavering? At first you sounded like I was trying to preach that "quote in red" to you which I wasn't. In fact, to lay it plain once and for all, I don't believe in that.

I don't know you chose to ignore the statements I made above? I asked the question in a more comprehensible form but you just want that "quote in red" to be my doctrine and my belief so you debunk. It's annoying when someone does that.

Is CT Russell's grave empty (like Jesus' grave) or not?

@Reiyvinn

My response to your post was with a complete understanding of your argument. I dont know why you accuse me of misunderstanding you.

You ve not even responded to the post.

JMAN05:
@Reiyvinn

My response to your post was with a complete understanding of your argument. I dont know why you accuse me of misunderstanding you.

You ve not even responded to the post.

Ok, I'd go on PC and do so. Even though your point was more direct than the rest of the commentors, I'll point out a few thing and then address the rest.

JMAN05:
Quote is unavailable...

Sorry I've been finding it difficult to quote your comment so I had to wait till I had done my subscription so I'd do it on PC. Even at that, it's still quite difficult doing so thus, I'd have to be pasting your words in bits....

I said: <<<Jehovah's Witnesses are taught that the first resurrection
(talked about in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Revelation 20:5)
began from 1918.
See: http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2007006>>>

You replied: <<< That it is a possibility, does not dogmatically mean that that statement is true.

We do know that the resurrection began during Christ's presence. We cant definitely state when it started. 1918 is still under probability.>>>

Well, "possibility" is conjecture, not scripture and conjectures are good for theories not theology. If indeed one is to ". . .appreciate . . . and respond to the directions of the "slave" as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision ." (Watchtower 1957 Jun 15 p.370) should one be obliged to respond to God's words and statements or to mere possibilities?

If it's a possibility, why is the year 1918 stressed? Why not 1960 or lets just say 1930, why 1918? After all, according to the thread, I raised the question of how one could verify if these "anointed" are indeed resurrected by perhaps, the same way the Bible talks of how the disciples verified Jesus' own resurrection by being met with an empty grave but so far, you haven't countered the whole thing, thus, how the WT came about the 1918 date remains a mystery to me.

I said: <<<Notice how Jesus, in the Bible, defined the term
"Resurrection" at John 5:25-28 saying that the dead will
COME OUT of their tombs.>>>

You replied: <<<Jesus was not defining resurrection in that verse. Resurrection has the thought of "raising up", not coming up. While the latter conveys the sense of stepping out, which can only be done by one who is alive, the former is about re-awakening.

Therefore, one can only come out from tomb after being reawoken.>>>

This is what John 5:25-29 [url=http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/l/r1/lp-e?q=John+5%3A25-29]according to the revised NWT[/url] has to say about the verse:

“Most truly I say to you, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who have paid attention will live. For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to do judging, because he is the Son of man. Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. "

This is surely talking about resurrection @bolded, the hour "those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment" so you cannot hide the fact that Jesus, according to this verse, was talking of a resurrection of the dead in the "last days" and not a miracle of his own day.

I said: <<<Posing a problem to the teaching, the Watchtower made this
"resurrection" a SPIRITUAL resurrection, i.e. No one, except
Jesus, sees it happening.>>>

You replied: <<<It is not only Jesus who see it happen. Others, including the previously resurrected, God, Angels would see it happen.>>>

When I said "no one" I meant no man, not even the Governing Body or any Jehovah's Witness. Thus, there was and currently is no way to verify if anything happened; it's even based on conjectures as you rightly affirmed.

I said: <<<Now, recall that Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe that a
part of man lives when the body dies, or that a part of man
can even live outside the body at all!
Recall again the standard that Jesus Himself set, according to
the Bible, of how THAT resurrection would be like: NO BODY
IN THE TOMB! EMPTY TOMB! (recall?).>>>

You replied: <<< 1. Jesus didnt set that standard. You did.>>>

Jesus did. He, according to the Bible, is the first to be resurrected into eternal life and this is how Paul defines THAT resurrection:

"So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one. " ( [url=http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bl/r1/lp-e?q=1%20Corinthians%2015%3A42-49]1 Corinthians 15:42-49 Revised NWT[/url] )

This is the process of resurrection as defined by Paul. Meaning: Whatever happened to the physical body of Christ in the grave is sure to the happen to the bodies of those who resurrect afterwards.

You replied: <<< 2. Notice that the scripture didnt say just "tomb", but a "memorial tomb". The greek word used there conveys the sense of having a detailed information about a person. So those in God's memory is the one to be raised. It is not all who die is in there. It is God who knows those in this tomb, not humans. When you bury your dead in your grave, this does not mean that he is in God's memorial tomb. No. God knows all who are there, not humans.

And these tomb is not the physical grave you see, where you can go and check whether the person is there or not.

This answers your number 1 question. It is memorial tomb, not grave. These are two words with different meaning.>>>

This is just a regurgitation of pre-programmed teachings from the Watchtower and I'm not surprised you didn't even use any Scripture to back up the notion of your memory-card version of God.

Here is what Memorial Tomb in the Greek ACTUALLY conveys:

From Strong's Concordance #3418, mnéma actual means: a tomb or a monument, not a memory card in God.

The word "mnéma" is gotten from the root-word "mnaomai" which is used to describe tomb-stones and plaques the REMIND or make one conscious, mindful or remember a thing of the past. In fact, it is used in the of a memory ". . .to be recalled or to return to one's mind. . ." (based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary) which is blasphemy to God who is meant to know all things.

Furthermore, there is absolutely no proof of this in the Bible where one is stored in God's memorial tomb; it's just another creative, unscriptural invention in the Bible.

I said: <<<If the Tombs of these are NOT empty (i.e. If we find
Bones and Decay), yet they resurrected. WHAT PART OF
THEM WAS RESURRECTED?>>>

You replied: <<<That article answered that question. In short, Paul himself answered that question. He asked, what body will the dead be coming up with. Let me quote the article;

In his first letter to the Corinthians, Paul raises a
question about the first resurrection: “How are the dead to
be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?”
He then answers the question: “What you sow is not made
alive unless first it dies . . . but God gives it a body just as it
has pleased him . . . The glory of the heavenly bodies is one
sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort.”—
1 Corinthians 15:35-40 .

7 Paul’s words show that Christians anointed with holy
spirit must die before they can receive their heavenly reward.
At their death, their earthly body returns to the dust.
( Genesis 3:19 ) At God’s appointed time, they are resurrected
with a body of a kind suitable for life in the heavens.
>>>

This does not answer the question raised in the thread.

Let me rephrase again for the umpteenth time.

* We all know that the only verifiable way to know if a person is resurrected is to see that the grave is empty which means that the body has been sown, buried and has been transformed into a spiritual body. Anything short of that (i.e. trying to imply that the person as a body in any form [in decay, bones, e.t.c] remains in the grave while the person as a spirit is in heaven) would either echo the same "christendom" teaching that a spirit, soul or whatever can be separated from the body to be in a different location (which you condemn) or mean that such a person never "resurrected" to be "caught up to meet the Lord in the air"

* How was Jesus' resurrection? His tomb was empty; no dead body in it at all.

That is the point here: whether as a body or as a spirit, the grave must be empty or "no resurrection" (think about if the disciples had found Jesus' body in the grave, what would have happened? Of course, that would contradict their understanding of what resurrection is (i.e. empty tomb) and be a hindrance to their faith)

Now that's where the Watchtower has a problem: Are the graves of these people empty? How then did they know they were resurrected?

You said: <<<Compare that with what I said previously.

1. God has a record of our color, behavior and etc in His "memory". He also has the power to retore that one's life force, spirit.

2. Exod 32:33; Deut 29:20; Ps 69:28 shows that God has a figurative book where he "writes" our record. So, if he gives anyone a 'new body, just as He pleases' according to that 1 Corinthians, He can restore his/her identity He has in His book.

Yes, when you plant a seed, the seed dies before producing a body. And how its new body will look like is not determined by the seed, but God. So, during resurrection, God will give some heavenly bodies and some earthly bodies.

The heavenly class is sown "a physical body" and it is raised up "a spiritual body" 1Cor. 15:44.

Flesh and blood cant enter heaven, so God has nothing to do with that body that has been rotten in the grave. 1Cor. 15:50

By way of summary, God has all the information needed to re-create that dead person. He has our individual "memory cards". He destroys those of the wicked, thereby, blotting it off.>>>

This memory-card God doctrine has been debunked. God doesn't have "record" of our colour, height, bla bla bla, he KNOWS your colour, height, e.t.c. (According to the Bible, Matthew 10:30). When he resurrects, he resurrects– brings back to life– YOU that died and not just recreate you and according to how he remembers you. Got that?

Whether flesh and blood inherits the Kingdom of God– which, funny enough doesn't refer to heaven but anywhere under God's rule– does not address the issue of the thread.

So I ask again:

Whether as a spirit or flesh, are the graves of these men empty (as the Bible reports of Jesus)?

If not, how did the Governing Body get to know that these men have been resurrected?

Stay cool....

Reiyvinn

We do know that the resurrection began during Christ's presence. We cant definitely state when it started. 1918 is still under probability.>>>

Well, "possibility" is conjecture, not scripture and conjectures are good for theories not theology. If indeed one is to ". . .appreciate . . . and respond to the directions of the "slave" as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision ." (Watchtower 1957 Jun 15 p.370) should one be obliged to respond to God's words and statements or mere possibilities?

If it's a possibility, why is the year 1918 stressed? Why not 1960 or lets just say 1930, why 1918? After all, according to the thread, I raised the question of how one could verify if these "anointed" are indeed resurrected by perhaps, the same way the Bible talks of how the disciples verified Jesus' own by being met with an empty grave but so far, you have countered the whole thing, thus, how the WT came about the 1918 date remains a mystery to me.

Even my system find it hard to connect to my phone. That's why am using my phone instead of laptop to type. So I understand.

It is a mark of humility to state the level of confidence you cast in your belief. When something is not exactly clear, its reasonable not to be dogmatic. Compare 2Cor. 12:2, 3.

As to why 1918 was spoken of, that article shows why - the parallel between what happened in the first century and what is to happen among the anointed. Read more from there.

This what John 5:25-29 [url=http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/l/r1/lp-e?q=John+5%3A25-29]according to the revised NWT[/url] has to say about the verse:

“Most truly I say to you, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who have paid attention will live. For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to do judging, because he is the Son of man. Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. "

This is surely talking about resurrection @bolded, the hour "those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment" so you cannot hide the fact that Jesus, according to this verse, was talking of a resurrection of the dead in the "last days" and not a miracle of his own day.

Yes it is talking about resurrection, but not defining resurrection. Your previous stand was on definition, which I faulted.

When I said "no one" I meant no man, not even the Governing Body or any Jehovah's Witness. Thus, there was and currently is no way to verify if anything happened; it's even based on conjectures as you rightly affirmed.

Ok, thanks for that clarification.

Yes, no one man will see that resurrection on course, but we will know it is happening because the scriptures supports spiritual resurrection.

Even christendom believes that there saints have gone to heaven, even though there human flesh are here with us. You maybe among those who subscribe to that belief right? If no, then you believe that no resurrection has occured at all. That makes you stand funny.

So, I what do you believe sir?

Jesus did. He, according to the Bible, is the first to be resurrected into eternal life and this is how Paul defines THAT resurrection:

"So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one. " ( [url=http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bl/r1/lp-e?q=1%20Corinthians%2015%3A42-49]1 Corinthians 15:42-49 Revised NWT[/url] )

This is the process of resurrection as defined by Paul. Meaning: Whatever happened to the physical body of Christ in the grave is sure to the happen to the bodies of those who resurrect afterwards.

That is how it should be, not in every detail, because Jesus' case was different from the rest of the anointed.

First - Jesus body was to be sacrificed for our sake. This is not required of all the anointed.

Second - he was nailed to the stake. This is not a requirement for all.

Third - he went to heaven to finish the sacrifice, to the heavenly Most Holy.

Jesus offered his blood for us, and after which his fleshly body would be disposed of outside the gate as was done to the bulls in the law covenant. The flesh of the bulls were "burned outside the camp". Compare Heb 13:11-13

Moses' case shows that God can dispose of a body so that no human can ever see where it is.

So Jesus' death was the reality of the shadow of what was done in the law, as such, his death cant picture that of the anointed in every detail.

This is just a regurgitation of pre-programmed teachings from the Watchtower and I'm not surprised you didn't even use any Scripture to back up the notion of your memory-card version of God.

Here is what Memorial Tomb in the Greek ACTUALLY conveys:

From Strong's Concordance #3418, mnéma actual means: a tomb or a monument, not a memory card in God.

The word "mnéma" is gotten from the root-word "mnaomai" which is used to describe tomb-stones and plaques the REMIND or make one conscious, mindful or remember a thing of the past. In fact, it is used in the of a memory ". . .to be recalled or to return to one's mind. . ." (based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary) which is blasphemy to God who is meant to know all things.

Furthermore, there is absolutely no proof of this in the Bible where one is stored in God's memorial tomb; it's just another creative, unscriptural invention in the Bible.

And you responded without using any scripture too.

You must admit that when I was speaking of "memorial tomb" as it relates to the original language, quoting a scripture would be pointless, because the word itself its derived from a scripture and the issue I wish to buttress is what the original word meant.

The definition is on Strong No 3419. Though the definition is almost the same thing.

And these conveys the sense of "remembrance" - cenotaph. A monument is meant to remember someone.

In short, just as you said above, which is my point, that the word conveys the sense of remembrance, not just a tomb. It carries a greater idea of permanence than grave (taphos).

It is not all righteous that are buried in a tomb, some die in different situation and places.

inscriptions of the tombs of israelites' origin are rare, and when found, it contains only a name. The outstanding king of th Jews dkdnt leave any magnificent monument for themselves.

Therefore, when the bible says all those in the memorial tomb, or monument, it seems the jews have in mind God remembering them after demise.

Since these monuments are not found, and many righteous ones die in different conditions and places with many not having a monument, it is logical to conclude that "all those in the memorial tomb" mentioned by Jesus are those in God's own memory for resurrection. Not a literal grave you see with your eyes. That's the point. Doesnt this point make sense to you?

As such, no need to go searching for a tomb and exhuming the bodies for verification.

No, it is not blasphemy. God has a figurative book of remembrance. Read Mal 3:16. If you read the scriptures quoted in my earlier reply, you wouldnt say that.

This does not answer the question raised in the thread.

Let me rephrase again for the umpteenth time.

* We all know that the only verifiable way to know if a person is resurrected is to see that the grave is empty which means that the body has been sown, buried and has been transformed into a spiritual body. Anything short of that (i.e. trying to imply that the person as a body in any form [in decay, bones, e.t.c] remains in the grave while the person as a spirit is in heaven) would either echo the same "christendom" teaching that a spirit, soul or whatever can be separated from the body to be in a different location (which you condemn) or mean that such a person never "resurrected" to be "caught up to meet the Lord in the air"

The scriptures say that the glory of the earthly bodies is a different sort from that of the heavenly bodies. 1cor. 15:40. There is no way that fleshly body can ascend heaven. No way! Nor is blood found there. Eyes can see flesh, but those going to heaven are not seen by the physical eyes because they will be spirits that hasn't. Jesus case is that he materialized human bodies. But he was a spirit as 1Pet 3:18 says.

That article quoted that 1cor. 15. verse 38 says that God gives it body at He pleases. You know there are different bodies, eg earthly and heavenly bodies.

I asked you, when you plant your seed, do you tell it the kind of body it carries?

God has no use of that fleshly body. He gives each there own bodies. With his record of that person in His book, he restore that one's identity. Only his record survives, not immaterial "part'' of him.

When someone sins, he is wiped out of God's book. Read Exod 32:33 please read these scriptures I quote.

So the record we make know is being noted. See also Psalm 69:28.

* How was Jesus' resurrection? His tomb was empty; no dead body in it at all.

That is the point here: whether as a body or as a spirit, the grave must be empty or "no resurrection" (think about if the disciples had found Jesus' body in the grave, what would have happened? Of course, that would contradict their understanding of what resurrection is (i.e. empty tomb) and be a hindrance to their faith)

Now that's where the Watchtower has a problem: Are the graves of these people empty? How then did they know they were resurrected?

I ve shown above why the empty tomb is your standard.

Jesus' death and resurrection cant picture that of the anointed in every detail. I ve shown this too.

Flesh and blood is of no use to God. In short, flesh is a form of body made for the earth, not heaven. That was Paul's argument.

This memory-card God doctrine has been debunked. God doesn't have "record" of our colour, height, bla bla bla, he KNOWS your colour, height, e.t.c. (According to the Bible, Matthew 10:30). When he resurrects, he resurrects– brings back to life– YOU that died and not just recreate you and according to how he remembers you. Got that?

You that died is a flesh, bone, black or white colored, literal eyes, mouth, manhood and womanhood. Is this the exact person that will go to heaven?

In heaven, there is neither male or female. So, will God raise that EXACT person as you theorize?

Fish cant live on land, neither will a man go and live on water. These places need different sort of bodies. So is heavenly life. It requires an entirely different form of body. That's Paul's argument. You can take what the bible says or keep conforting yourself with self-made standards for resurrection. Its your call.

Whether flesh and blood inherits the Kingdom of God– which, funny enough doesn't refer to heaven but anywhere under God's rule– does not address the issue of the thread.

So I ask again:

Whether as a spirit or flesh, are the graves of these men empty (as the Bible reports of Jesus)?

If not, how did the Governing Body get to know that these men have been resurrected?

Stay cool....

Yes, but Paul's letter is directed to the anointed. So its logical that his message is with the heavenly class in mind.

The empty tomb is your standard for resurrection, not scriptural. Thats for you to worry about, not the GB.

Whats your religion. These will atleast help in opening your eyes to the folly of your argument.

JMAN05:
Reiyvinn




Even my system find it hard to connect to my phone. That's why am using my phone instead of laptop to type. So I understand.

It is a mark of humility to state the level of confidence you cast in your belief. When something is not exactly clear, its reasonable not to be dogmatic. Compare 2Cor. 12:2, 3.

Well, I hope an elder doesn't hear you say that because you might just find yourself before the judicial committee in your Kingdom Hall Anyway, you're correct, one isn't meant to hold on to a believe "that isn't exactly clear" dogmatically even if we have to ". . .appreciate . . . and respond to the directions of the "slave" as we would to the voice of God. . ." (Watchtower 1957 Jun 15 p.370). I applaud your honesty; not many JWs do that.

As to why 1918 was spoken of, that article shows why - the parallel between what happened in the first century and what is to happen among the anointed. Read more from there.

Bro, what makes you think I haven't read everything written in the article before raising this question? There was no "parallel" between 1914 and 1918, in fact, the only reason the Watchtower gave was that it was "around" Christ's "presence" but as to how they arrived at 1918, they stated nothing.

Yes it is talking about resurrection, but not defining resurrection. Your previous stand was on definition, which I faulted.

Sorry to say bro, this is nonsense (no offense at all), if he was talking "about" resurrection, he was actually talking of how it would happen; i.e. ". . .all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment." there is no ambiguity in this statement; he talked "about" it; he defined it.

Yes, no one man will see that resurrection on course, but we will know it is happening because the scriptures supports spiritual resurrection.

Proof please? Ha! You love inventions, don't you? I'd appreciate it if you gave me some citations.

Even Christendom believes that there saints have gone to heaven, even though there human flesh are here with us. You maybe among those who subscribe to that belief right? If no, then you believe that no resurrection has occurred at all. That makes you stand funny.

So, I what do you believe sir?

Now you're beginning to shoot yourself on the foot. "Christendom" (or whatever you call them)– some of them; the one you refer to– profess a belief in separation of spirit and/or soul from body after death. This allows for them to claim that the dead body is in the grave while their "spirit" is in heaven. Moreover, they don't call it resurrection but afterlife.

Furthermore, it appears that you are taking the step of truthislight in attempting to derail the thread from "Question for JWs" to "Personal beliefs of the OP" which is uncalled for. What I believe or don't believe does not matter here; what matters is the fact and I'm asking JWs to produce an answer to flaws in their doctrine.

That is how it should be, not in every detail, because Jesus' case was different from the rest of the anointed.

First - Jesus body was to be sacrificed for our sake. This is not required of all the anointed.

Second - he was nailed to the stake. This is not a requirement for all.

Third - he went to heaven to finish the sacrifice, to the heavenly Most Holy.

Jesus offered his blood for us, and after which his fleshly body would be disposed of outside the gate as was done to the bulls in the law covenant. The flesh of the bulls were "burned outside the camp". Compare Heb 13:11-13

Moses' case shows that God can dispose of a body so that no human can ever see where it is.

So Jesus' death was the reality of the shadow of what was done in the law, as such, his death cant picture that of the anointed in every detail.

Jesus came to "offer" his body according to the Bible simply means that he came to die; to be "obedient unto death" (Php 2:6-9). If the flesh offering was the same as that of the burnt offering, then was it eaten as it ought to be? No.

According to the Bible, Jesus simply suffered for man's sake and resurrected for man to see life after death.

Furthermore, the sacrifices was on the cross– or stake as you may prefer– not in the grave. Jesus' burial, according to the Bible, was just a picture of a dead human being buried and his resurrection, according to the Bible, is a record of resurrection into life everlasting, thus, He, being the first fruit, became a prototype to the others who follow suit.

And you responded without using any scripture too.

I wasn't trying to talk "symbolic" or interpret "figuratives" but I was dealing with semantics here. Don't use this to save face brother, the word "memorial tomb" in Greek usage refers to a grave with monuments, there are thousands of passages in the Bible that prove that: Mark 5:5; Luke 8:27; Luke 23:53; Luke 24:1; Acts 2:29; Acts 7:16, e.t.c.

You must admit that when I was speaking of "memorial tomb" as it relates to the original language, quoting a scripture would be pointless, because the word itself its derived from a scripture and the issue I wish to buttress is what the original word meant.

The definition is on Strong No 3419. Though the definition is almost the same thing.

And these conveys the sense of "remembrance" - cenotaph. A monument is meant to remember someone.

In short, just as you said above, which is my point, that the word conveys the sense of remembrance, not just a tomb. It carries a greater idea of permanence than grave (taphos).

It is not all righteous that are buried in a tomb, some die in different situation and places.

inscriptions of the tombs of israelites' origin are rare, and when found, it contains only a name. The outstanding king of th Jews dkdnt leave any magnificent monument for themselves.

Don't distort my comment bro. I said that the word "mnéma" was coined from the word "mnaomai" which according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon means to: ". . . to recall (bring to mind); remember, recollect. . ." which of course depicts a situation where one needs to be reminded by the monument in order to prevent a case whereby the deceased is forgotten: That is to say, when the person is forgotten, that monument REMIND him, it's a blasphemy to associate such with an all-knowing God.

Therefore, when the bible says all those in the memorial tomb, or monument, it seems the jews have in mind God remembering them after demise.

Since these monuments are not found, and many righteous ones die in different conditions and places with many not having a monument, it is logical to conclude that "all those in the memorial tomb" mentioned by Jesus are those in God's own memory for resurrection. Not a literal grave you see with your eyes. That's the point. Doesnt this point make sense to you?

As such, no need to go searching for a tomb and exhuming the bodies for verification.

That makes absolutely no sense. That's nothing but wishful thinking. The Bible even associates the mnéma (memorial tomb) with Abraham (Acts 7:16) and talks of nothing else but a burial place; stop putting words into your God's mouth. If the Jews merely meant "the mind" the word "tomb" won't come into place, never!

No, it is not blasphemy. God has a figurative book of remembrance. Read Mal 3:16. If you read the scriptures quoted in my earlier reply, you wouldnt say that.

This is what I said (which you were responding to): <<<This is just a regurgitation of pre-programmed teachings from the Watchtower and I'm not surprised you didn't even use any Scripture to back up the notion of your memory-card version of God.

Here is what Memorial Tomb in the Greek ACTUALLY conveys:

From Strong's Concordance #3418, mnéma actual means: a tomb or a monument, not a memory card in God.

The word "mnéma" is gotten from the root-word "mnaomai" which is used to describe tomb-stones and plaques the REMIND or make one conscious, mindful or remember a thing of the past. In fact, it is used in the of a memory ". . .to be recalled or to return to one's mind. . ." (based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary) which is blasphemy to God who is meant to know all things.

Furthermore, there is absolutely no proof of this in the Bible where one is stored in God's memorial tomb; it's just another creative, unscriptural invention in the Bible.>>>

@bolded was my emphasis. The Book of Remembrance in Malachi doesn't refer to a book that God turns to whenever he forgets something in order to "remember" that thing (this goes completely against Omniscience). The Book of Remembrance
surely refers the Book– as with the Book of the Lamb– refers to a sort of "register" for those who fear God. However, in the case of "returning a specific detail back to God's memory" that's a blasphemy.

The scriptures say that the glory of the earthly bodies is a different sort from that of the heavenly bodies. 1cor. 15:40. There is no way that fleshly body can ascend heaven. No way! Nor is blood found there. Eyes can see flesh, but those going to heaven are not seen by the physical eyes because they will be spirits that hasn't. Jesus case is that he materialized human bodies. But he was a spirit as 1Pet 3:18 says.

That article quoted that 1cor. 15. verse 38 says that God gives it body at He pleases. You know there are different bodies, eg earthly and heavenly bodies.

This, again, doesn't relate to what is asked on the OP. Like I said: whether it is spiritual or physical, that's not the question asked. Paul never talked of a body remaining in the grave while the spiritual body goes to heaven. rather, Paul said that it shall be TRANSFORMED (v.51) thus, the body is turned into a physical one. If the body is found in the grave, it wasn't transformed; it wasn't resurrected. Simple

I asked you, when you plant your seed, do you tell it the kind of body it carries?

Answered above

God has no use of that fleshly body. He gives each there own bodies. With his record of that person in His book, he restore that one's identity. Only his record survives, not immaterial "part'' of him.[quote]

Off again. I re-quote:
Paul said that it shall be TRANSFORMED (v.51) thus, the body is turned into a physical one. If the body is found in the grave, it wasn't transformed; it wasn't resurrected.

[quote]When someone sins, he is wiped out of God's book. Read Exod 32:33 please read these scriptures I quote.

So the record we make know is being noted. See also Psalm 69:28.

Answered above.

I ve shown above why the empty tomb is your standard.

Jesus' death and resurrection cant picture that of the anointed in every detail. I ve shown this too.

Flesh and blood is of no use to God. In short, flesh is a form of body made for the earth, not heaven. That was Paul's argument.



You that died is a flesh, bone, black or white colored, literal eyes, mouth, manhood and womanhood. Is this the exact person that will go to heaven?

In heaven, there is neither male or female. So, will God raise that EXACT person as you theorize?

Fish cant live on land, neither will a man go and live on water. These places need different sort of bodies. So is heavenly life. It requires an entirely different form of body. That's Paul's argument. You can take what the bible says or keep conforting yourself with self-made standards for resurrection. Its your call.



Yes, but Paul's letter is directed to the anointed. So its logical that his message is with the heavenly class in mind.

The empty tomb is your standard for resurrection, not scriptural. Thats for you to worry about, not the GB.

Whats your religion. These will atleast help in opening your eyes to the folly of your argument.

Now here is a quotation describing resurrection INTO HEAVEN fro Revelation 11:3-end:

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Need I say more? These men weren't on earth as dead bodies while they were in heaven as spiritual beings, they left their place of death.... So I ask again, are the graves of these men empty

Reiyvinn:


Well, I hope an elder doesn't hear you say that because you might just find yourself before the judicial committee in your Kingdom Hall Anyway, you're correct, one isn't meant to hold on to a believe "that isn't exactly clear" dogmatically even if we have to ". . .appreciate . . . and respond to the directions of the "slave" as we would to the voice of God. . ." (Watchtower 1957 Jun 15 p.370). I applaud your honesty; not many JWs do that.

JWs are humble people, who admit there mistakes.

Bro, what makes you think I haven't read everything written in the article before raising this question? There was no "parallel" between 1914 and 1918, in fact, the only reason the Watchtower gave was that it was "around" Christ's "presence" but as to how they arrived at 1918, they stated nothing.

Not between 1914 and 1918, but what happened in the first century and what is happening on behalf of the anointed. Thy drew a parallel between Jesus date of death and resurrection to that of the anointed. That is how the date 1918 was reached. You mean you didnt see this?

Sorry to say bro, this is nonsense (no offense at all), if he was talking "about" resurrection, he was actually talking of how it would happen; i.e. ". . .all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment." there is no ambiguity in this statement; he talked "about" it; he defined it.

He wasnt defining it. Definition is a concise explanation of the meaning of a word...

That was not Jesus intention on that verse, as Paul set out to give us the meaning of "Faith" at Heb 11:1. No. He was only saying how he was going to resurrect the dead.

True, he touched the meaning of resurrection 'cos that is what it involves, someone rising from the dead, but he was not given us a concise meaning of "resurrection". That wasnt his purpose of speaking.

Proof please? Ha! You love inventions, don't you? I'd appreciate it if you gave me some citations.

Did you see when Jesus was undergoing the resurrection process?

Now you're beginning to shoot yourself on the foot. "Christendom" (or whatever you call them)– some of them; the one you refer to– profess a belief in separation of spirit and/or soul from body after death. This allows for them to claim that the dead body is in the grave while their "spirit" is in heaven. Moreover, they don't call it resurrection but afterlife.

Rubbish! There must be an empty tomb wether it is a spirit or not, thats your theory.

Furthermore, it appears that you are taking the step of truthislight in attempting to derail the thread from "Question for JWs" to "Personal beliefs of the OP" which is uncalled for. What I believe or don't believe does not matter here; what matters is the fact and I'm asking JWs to produce an answer to flaws in their doctrine.

You will be sounding unreasonable if you fight against what you believe just to win an argument. To be reasonable, if my explanation is wrong, yours should be correct, if not, what are we doing here.

Jesus came to "offer" his body according to the Bible simply means that he came to die; to be "obedient unto death" (Php 2:6-9). If the flesh offering was the same as that of the burnt offering, then was it eaten as it ought to be? No.

That scripture said burned. Thats all.

According to the Bible, Jesus simply suffered for man's sake and resurrected for man to see life after death.

Furthermore, the sacrifices was on the cross– or stake as you may prefer– not in the grave. Jesus' burial, according to the Bible, was just a picture of a dead human being buried and his resurrection, according to the Bible, is a record of resurrection into life everlasting, thus, He, being the first fruit, became a prototype to the others who follow suit.

He died in the flesh and was made alive in the spirit. 1Pet 3:18. The anointed die in the flesh and are raised in the spirit.

I wasn't trying to talk "symbolic" or interpret "figuratives" but I was dealing with semantics here. Don't use this to save face brother, the word "memorial tomb" in Greek usage refers to a grave with monuments, there are thousands of passages in the Bible that prove that: Mark 5:5; Luke 8:27; Luke 23:53; Luke 24:1; Acts 2:29; Acts 7:16, e.t.c.

There was nothing like monument in those graves sir. The jews use that word no doubt to reinforce the fact that they need God to remember them after there demise.

They mostly bury in caves, and in these caves, there are no monuments as the findings have shown.

And of course, there are many of them whom there place of burial is called taphos, and some qevurah. So, wont these ones be resurrected? Is it only all those in the literal mnemeion that would be resurrected?

I ve told you, that Jesus words refer to those in God's memory for resurrection. Not that you will start to search for all tombs in the world for verification.

Don't distort my comment bro. I said that the word "mnéma" was coined from the word "mnaomai" which according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon means to: ". . . to recall (bring to mind); remember, recollect. . ." which of course depicts a situation where one needs to be reminded by the monument in order to prevent a case whereby the deceased is forgotten: That is to say, when the person is forgotten, that monument REMIND him, it's a blasphemy to associate such with an all-knowing God.

Oga, what you are defining is different from what I gave you, though they are somehow related, which is why dont want to dwell on that. But you talking about different thing altogether.

The word is found at 3419 and the word is derived from mneme, not mnema.

The meaning of the word i gave you is remembrance ie, cenotaph. Bear that in mind.

The God who said he has such book know it isn't a blasphemy to him. We say book of remembrance because Jah said so. I ve previously stated that you need to accept what the scripture says instead of setting your own standard.

That makes absolutely no sense. That's nothing but wishful thinking. The Bible even associates the mnéma (memorial tomb) with Abraham (Acts 7:16) and talks of nothing else but a burial place; stop putting words into your God's mouth. If the Jews merely meant "the mind" the word "tomb" won't come into place, never!

The word mnemeion (this word was not what appeared in that Acts. Take note) doesnt mean grave (taphos), which you also know.

The jews use this word, no doubt because they want to be remembered by Jah.

[quote]@bolded was my emphasis. The Book of Remembrance in Malachi doesn't refer to a book that God turns to whenever he forgets something in order to "remember" that thing (this goes completely against Omniscience). The Book of Remembrance
surely refers the Book– as with the Book of the Lamb– refers to a sort of "register" for those who fear God. However, in the case of "returning a specific detail back to God's memory" that's a blasphemy.

Your misunderstanding has been affecting you for long. God is not forgeting anything. Rather God is using something as it were to affix that one in His memory.

I wonder what an omniscience will be doing with a "register" where he writes the name of the faithfuls. It all comes down to the same thing - "remembrance".

When you are noted by God, your life course is known also.

This, again, doesn't relate to what is asked on the OP. Like I said: whether it is spiritual or physical, that's not the question asked. Paul never talked of a body remaining in the grave while the spiritual body goes to heaven. rather, Paul said that it shall be TRANSFORMED (v.51) thus, the body is turned into a physical one. If the body is found in the grave, it wasn't transformed; it wasn't resurrected. Simple

I wonder why you are worrying your head when you already have a self made standard.

Paul was addressing a question: what sort of body are they coming. He further stated that God gives it body as He pleases.

The transformation is such that he is given a new body. Of course, it is the person that is transformed. That he is given a new body doesnt change the individual to another person. He only underwent transformation, while retaining his personality.

It will make no sense for God to start searching the decayed pieces of a dead person. Some died in such a way that there parts have become part of another object or has even been a manure or diet for another object.

What if the object they have become part of have died and decayed and also have become part of another object etc etc?

Will God go and bring out the invisible and unseen remains and then transform it to a spirit?

Must He get the decayed material from him before he brings that individual to life?

Of course, when God transforms the individual into another body, the former remains wont go for protest because the person in question is raised.

And the person in question will know he is raised.

Read Rev 6:11 and you tell me what those people are doing there. Are there missing corpse in burial places?

The account shows that some are waiting to be killed, and after they are killed, it is logical that they wont wait there until they are buried, decay and then there corpses will disappear.

Those who are waiting to be killed, will immediately be raise as soon as they die to join ther colleagues during this time of the end, if not, that revelation 6:11 will make little sense.

Rev 11:3- is not literal, but symbolic.